What is a Glorious Church life?

[Hope]

Originally Posted by YP0534

Brother Hope,

I have limited time.
Shoud I spend it to read that?

Thank you.

Dear YPO534,

I know what you mean. This forum has surely eaten into some of the many things that seem important but the Lord seems to have drawn me into this and you can probably say the same. Yet we do need some discernment. There are a few posters on the other forum I decided to skip. A big reason I left that forum was that some just wanted to waste our time and to gum up the fellowship. Also it is important to discern who is genuine and who is sober minded.

Because I know a lot of the details around the Barber family I have little confidence in the fairness or accuracy of their posts. But all is up to you. Use the God given discernment you have.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[AndPeter]

Originally Posted by Hope

...
Because I know a lot of the details around the Barber family I have little confidence in the fairness or accuracy of their posts. ...

Dear brother Don,

One thing that struck me was when Brent shared to the effect that his father had second thoughts about the LC in the last few months of his life. The post is towards the end of his series of posts. I looked but could not locate it.

Would you care to comment on this statement as to its fairness or accuracy.

Steve

[Hope]

Originally Posted by AndPeter

Dear brother Don,

One thing that struck me was when Brent shared to the effect that his father had second thoughts about the LC in the last few months of his life. The post is towards the end of his series of posts. I looked but could not locate it.

Would you care to comment on this statement as to its fairness or accuracy.

Steve

James died of cancer. He was in Irving living with Benson seeking to get help from alternative treatments. During this time no one had much contact with him. Before this I had pretty much dropped contact with him. He was becoming more and more odd. I attributed it to nothing in particular. Perhaps it was due to internal conflicts about the lc. He suffered greatly over the whole thought of the video messages. He complained to me that "we ministering brothers" may as well get a pop corn machine and sell pop corn during the videos. It was obvious to me that he saw his role in the recovery was pretty much over and WL was going a different direction with different people. James could have certainly been disappointed. I never heard him criticize WL but he was not happy at the end.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

PS

Yo djohson,

God-men socks???!!! When did this happened? Makes we want to double over in laughter. How crazy did things get? Who had the socks? Where did they come from? How do you get a pair of those babies?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Hope

He suffered greatly over the whole thought of the video messages. He complained to me that "we ministering brothers" may as well get a pop corn machine and sell pop corn during the videos. It was obvious to me that he saw his role in the recovery was pretty much over and WL was going a different direction with different people. James could have certainly been disappointed. I never heard him criticize WL but he was not happy at the end.

James' comment about the videos is quite telling. How sad that must have been for him. Not only did he endeavor to be the best "WL Promoter" on the planet, but he was bested by another, Max R, in a power struggle, which isolated him on "an island" in OKC. And now he feels completely useless by the emerging technology of "Beta machines."

James was not alone in this regard. The "New Way," FTTA, "laboratory experiment" had the same subtle goal -- to discredit all the senior brothers around the country who were the very ones promoting the ministry of WL from the beginning. This pattern of "using and discarding" gifted brothers is troublesome for sure. Think about our history of quarantines.

This side of LC history is hidden for sure. The sad and painful experience of promoting a minister, only to come up in the end "on empty." Heart- wrenching indeed. At one time (II Corinthians Training circa 1982) I felt that promoting the ministry of WL was more important than the message of the cross of Christ. Can you believe that? To me "promoting the ministry" was the gospel of the kingdom of the heavens, while the message of the cross of Christ was just the "low gospel" of going to heaven. Where was I?

Yes, the ministry of WL taught us many Bible truths which were helpful, but in his ministry we got lots of "extras." These "extras" had many strings attached. Eventually all these "extras" served as leaven to leaven the whole lump. This is why so many ex-members struggle to differentiate what is healthy "bread from heaven," and what is not.

Another sad fact is this -- the ministry of TC is also loaded with "extras."

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Kat

oh no oh ok dude wow i dont want to gum up the fellowship .. so someone better spell out what the criteria is for being over there and being over here.. oh wait isnt that what mods and admin is for.. whats that ...sniff sniff... i smell religion.. and Lord forgive me for this offense.. and brothers and sisters and mods and admin..

Hello Sister Kat,

No you don't smell religion. I did not have you in mind. To know what I mean go to the other forum. Look up posts by cuttingstraight, a local church apologist. Most on this forum have concluded that there was nothing genuine with him but an attempt to prevent any progress from being made. This forum jumped from less than 10 to over 60 in just a few days due to the bad faith posters over there. There is a thread there where they are discussing the "Mass Migration."

Calm down, drink some water. No problem if you get a little over the top but if someone comments on that be happy that we can have dialogue. I have been called much worse than religious. If I get a little over the top, OBW or Thankful Jane will help me out. Maybe Nell will add a few cents worth to make sure I get the message.

Hope

[Guest1]

brother Don..Hope..
cool.. sorry you caught that before my edit.. oh well the Lord exposes me and I love it.. I really do like to get burned by the Lord.. ok so we are cool over here.. i will go check it out.. right now i was reading your history of lc .. is that what you meant by chapters.. you are going to add to that .. if you have links to your work .. i would appreciate it..

God's Blessings

[Guest1]

FPO thanks for your post.. encouraging..

[finallyprettyokay]

Hope wrote: Please tolerate me. I do not like to point out the flaws in others. I have too many flaws myself. The Lord has had mercy on me. There is hope for us all. I fear I may come accross as writing off real and dear brothers and sisters because of mistakes and sins of the past. But remember our Lord does not break a bruised reed.



I have never been completely sure what the bruised reed thing means -- I have heard completely different things about it --- amazing how different. Well, I think you mean like, don't kick a dog when he's down. God doesn't. He really does love us, with all the flaws we have. Bruised reeds that God treats with gentle drawing towards Him.

We all have people in the LC or out of the LC that we love. People who were part of our story. I have shared that Max and his wife are two of those people for me. I am telling you, I would have stayed an insane little 17 year strung out addict if he hadn't been willing to do what God told him to do in my town. And all throughout that experience he was always there for me. Sandee, too. And although I was young, we had a equality that comes from God.

There are others I could talk about --- friends and people I loved. We all have lots of names in our hearts, I think. And that is precious. Most of us become a little bit like a grizzly bear if we feel our loved ones are being hurt or threatened.

So, I have been trying to figure out how I feel about all of this. You said to use the discernment God has given us. It's extra hard to do that on line. Have we all known someone who goes to meet an 'internet romance'? Scares everyone to death. Because it is hard to have discernment on line. Okay, it's not that good of an example, but it sort of illustrates my point.

I have enjoyed your book. I admire your williness to open up your chest cavity and let us into your heart and your life. And I don't know you at all. I remember your name, but that is about all. I have this thought that you are tall. --- funny, huh? And still, I feel like I like you. Your writing about Daystar touched my heart, and I wrote to you about it.

So, I am feeling like I like you well enough, and trust you some, too. But ...but I don't want anyone to say things about people I love. We are ALL like that. And it's not just Max and his wife --- there are others that I feel protective about.

I know I am not the only one with this inward conflict. At least, I don't think I am.

So, where it leaves me is this --- I have some choices. Just ditch this whole thing right now, head in the sand before anything really makes me sad or mad . Or, try to be less thin-skinned, and see what comes.

I wasn't in on the behind the scenes politics of the whole thing like you were. And boy, howdy, am I glad I wasn't. I guess I knew plenty, but not every detail or the nitty-gritty. That makes our experience and understanding different now, just as it was then.

Does any of this make sense? I am saying to me, to you, to anyone who wants to listen ---let's just remember to not break any bruised reeds, not to kick a dog while he's down. We need to have lots of gentleness and kindness with each other.

And I will do my best to stay open to you, Don. 'Cuz I have this idea that you are a good person. Stay open to me, too.


FPO


PS --- how cute is my little dog? Cute.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by finallyprettyokay

I have never been completely sure what the bruised reed thing means -- I have heard completely different things about it --- amazing how different. Well, I think you mean like, don't kick a dog when he's down. God doesn't. He really does love us, with all the flaws we have. Bruised reeds that God treats with gentle drawing towards Him.

The "bruised reed" is in reference to Matt 12.20

Yes, your dog is very cute.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Hope

I know what you mean. This forum has surely eaten into some of the many things that seem important but the Lord seems to have drawn me into this and you can probably say the same. Yet we do need some discernment. There are a few posters on the other forum I decided to skip. A big reason I left that forum was that some just wanted to waste our time and to gum up the fellowship. Also it is important to discern who is genuine and who is sober minded.

Brother Hope,

I appreciate your candor and guessed that you would respond in just this way.
I thank you for your fellowship.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

finallyfeelingprettyok if you read something about someone on this forum e.g. Mr. Rapoport and it doesn't make sense to you based on what you know I recommend trying to contact the person directly and asking them their viewpoint on the same subject.

Another example is Hope's discussion about James Barber. From my research the attitude Barber had about "SMO's" was widespread in the LCS. Maybe different terms were used but the same attitude. I would even suggest the entire leadership of the LCS, then and now, with some possible exceptions, have an edge of arrogance towards anyone who is not wholeheartedly and unquestioningly pursuing their agenda. Barber was not the exception he was the rule. Since Barber is dead we cannot ask him about it but do some research and I'm sure you'll find the attitude was pervasive.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by djohnson

finallyfeelingprettyok if you read something about someone on this forum e.g. Mr. Rapoport and it doesn't make sense to you based on what you know I recommend trying to contact the person directly and asking them their viewpoint on the same subject.

Another example is Hope's discussion about James Barber. From my research the attitude Barber had about "SMO's" was widespread in the LCS. Maybe different terms were used but the same attitude. I would even suggest the entire leadership of the LCS, then and now, with some possible exceptions, have an edge of arrogance towards anyone who is not wholeheartedly and unquestioningly pursuing their agenda. Barber was not the exception he was the rule. Since Barber is dead we cannot ask him about it but do some research and I'm sure you'll find the attitude was pervasive.

Hello dj,

I would use a stronger phrase than arrogance to describe the attitude towards the believers in Christ who were not "good Material," or could not fully participate in the up-to-date agenda. It was wrong, wrong, wrong and fully against the nature of our Lord Jesus.

I never heard anyone use the term SMOs except James. He actually boasted that it was his term. Due to his gift in teaching and position as one of the inner circle of WL almost from the beginning, James shaped many attitudes and practices in the lc.

As you point out, you cannot check with James. If you do have access to Max or his friend asks him about James' attitude. I appreciated Max's efforts to deal with the arrogance among many of the leaders and in particular he was very frank to point out the failure to appreciate those who may be considered a little bit of an "ugly duckling." Whereas James was quick to point out alleged short comings in others, church elders and Christianity in general, for the most part Max did not speak much about people who were not in the room. Now he could really tie into a brother when he wanted to but at first did it to his face. Unfortunately, he seemed to get the WL habit of criticizing others behind their back. On my part by 1978, I had had it with the undermining from James and that which was beginning to come from Max's inner circle and from Max himself, at least as reported to me by many of his inner circle. Twice I confronted Max and he did not deny my charges but did promise to change. I accepted that but later was very dissapointed to learn that he was still going that way. No doubt WL had a lot to do with this as this was not the Max that I first met and came to know.

Looking back, I find it hard to believe for how long I gave the main leaders, WL, JB, MR a pass on attitudes and behaviors which any sincere believer would reject or have serious reservations. Maybe that is part of the djohnson "gravitas" thing which I lack. I hate to think of how guilty I must have also been. LORD HAVE MERCY ON US ALL!!!

During my journey toward the goal of the high calling in Christ, I have not found it helpful to do the group judgment thing. (dj you tend to throw all into the same pot. Just think about it. ) The Lord is very specific when He convicts us. Thus we can confess and clear up the matter. Unprofitable condemnation is always very general. Kind of like the devil's, "Don, you are bad bad bad, you have always been bad and you will always be bad." Whereas the Lord says, "dear child, I love you and want the best for you. Leave that sin, or attitude or worthless thing. That is not the new creation which is the real you. I am here. Come to Me now." This is my hope for all of us. If I feel compelled to point out less than pleasant things from the past, I am looking to the Lord that it will be for the purpose of light, conviction and restoration. Please pray for me.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[Hope]

Good Morning FPO,

I greatly appreciate your post. My heart is very warmed. I am so much for bruised reeds. The bruised reed was like a home made musical instrument. If it was bruised or damaged it lost its ability to play music. Maybe a little like a certain 17 year old that the Rapoports brought back to health. The principle applies after we are saved. Sometimes we are damaged. The Lord does not throw us away but restores us to play beautiful music. I am a bruised reed being restored. How thankful I am!!! I love the comtemporary song "Lord we appreciate You." In North Carolina just about all with whom I assemble are bruised reeds whom the Lord is restoring. When we sing that song, often tears flow from many eyes. Tears of gratitude.

FPO, I am not tall and may resemble you cute little dog. If you never met me, don't worry. You did not miss much.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge