Apostles

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think Martin Luther was an apostle. I don't think it was necessary to "call him an apostle" to receive his teaching and to leave the Catholic church.
I think Hudson Taylor was an apostle. I imagine that many of the new converts that received his gospel and began to meet in church congregations had no idea about anything more than the fact that he brought the gospel to them.
Once again, I think the best way to know an apostle is by there fruit. We don't need to know someone is "an evangelist". If they do the work of an evangelist and have the fruit of an evangelist, then does it really matter if we call them an evangelist? Likewise, if you do the work of an apostle and have the fruit of an apostle, does it really matter if you have the title of an apostle?

Right. You think. I think. They think. That's no basis upon which to allot someone authority over multiple churches. That my point.

It's enough basis to consider someone's message worthy of consideration. But it's no basis upon which to allot someone the kind of authority bestowed on Witness Lee, or Herbert Armstrong, or anyone like that. The fruit you speak of has made that clear.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Right. You think. I think. They think. That's no basis upon which to allot someone authority over multiple churches. That my point.

It's enough basis to consider someone's message worthy of consideration. But it's no basis upon which to allot someone the kind of authority bestowed on Witness Lee, or Herbert Armstrong, or anyone like that. The fruit you speak of has made that clear.

You do not allot someone apostolic authority merely because you listen to their message or attend a church that sells their books. If Paul, or Martin Luther, or anyone else is "allotted authority" it comes directly from the Lord, to whom all authority has been given.

I was in the LRC, what authority did I allot to WL? I cannot think of anything.

You say that this is practical discussion, not a theoretical one. Who allots apostolic authority to others? When do they do this? How? Why?

You might think that only selling WL books in the church book room is allotting authority to him. However, that was never my experience. I bought more books that were not written by WL than were (in the church book room, I bought none at Christian bookstores or BN.com, etc. In fact, I may have bought more books that were not published by the LSM at the church bookstore than ones that were. If I recall correctly, I bought a Bible, a Concordance, a word study, and three biographies that were not published by LSM from the Houston Bookroom. I probably bought more than 5 LSM published books from that bookroom as well, but definitely not 5 WL books. Also, I think a few of the WN books I bought were not published by LSM. Based on that I would say I definitely bought more books that were not published by the LSM than were from the Houston bookstore.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You do not allot someone apostolic authority merely because you listen to their message or attend a church that sells their books. If Paul, or Martin Luther, or anyone else is "allotted authority" it comes directly from the Lord, to whom all authority has been given.

Do you mean you don't do it, or you shouldn't do it? Because a heck of a lot of people in the LRC did it.

You say that this is practical discussion, not a theoretical one. Who allots apostolic authority to others? When do they do this? How? Why?

That's my question. So far, no one has done a good job of answering it.

You might think that only selling WL books in the church book room is allotting authority to him. However, that was never my experience.

The overall effect was Lee got credit for being an apostle. Your experience is the exception. And the exception proves the rule.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You might think that only selling WL books in the church book room is allotting authority to him. However, that was never my experience. I bought more books that were not written by WL than were (in the church book room, I bought none at Christian bookstores or BN.com, etc. In fact, I may have bought more books that were not published by the LSM at the church bookstore than ones that were. If I recall correctly, I bought a Bible, a Concordance, a word study, and three biographies that were not published by LSM from the Houston Bookroom. I probably bought more than 5 LSM published books from that bookroom as well, but definitely not 5 WL books. Also, I think a few of the WN books I bought were not published by LSM. Based on that I would say I definitely bought more books that were not published by the LSM than were from the Houston bookstore.

Ah, the 70's! What magical days those must have been. The days of Puff the Magic Dragon and church bookrooms that actually sold books not published by Living Stream Ministry.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Ah, the 70's! What magical days those must have been. The days of Puff the Magic Dragon and church bookrooms that actually sold books not published by Living Stream Ministry.

The publishing of the RcV was a really significant change. Now, all of a sudden, book rooms that had always sold Bibles could sell the RcV exclusively. Reference tools like a Concordance or word study could be pooh poohed because you had the "footnotes". They had also purchased rights to WN so they could eliminate other WN publications and have only the LSM ones. And, where saints once were encouraged to read the biographies of the past saints, this was not encouraged nearly as much.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The publishing of the RcV was a really significant change. Now, all of a sudden, book rooms that had always sold Bibles could sell the RcV exclusively. Reference tools like a Concordance or word study could be pooh poohed because you had the "footnotes". They had also purchased rights to WN so they could eliminate other WN publications and have only the LSM ones. And, where saints once were encouraged to read the biographies of the past saints, this was not encouraged nearly as much.

No kidding. Funny how you leave out these 30 or so years of history when you make statements like, "I was in the LRC, what authority did I allot to WL? I cannot think of anything."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

No kidding. Funny how you leave out these 30 or so years of history when you make statements like, "I was in the LRC, what authority did I allot to WL? I cannot think of anything."

That's because what happened in the LRC in general did not affect me. I left Irving to go to Odessa, a home meeting that grew into a church in someone's home which then grew into a church in a meeting hall. I left when they were just unpacking the boxes for their first "book room".

I moved from there to New Hampshire where once again it was just a home meeting, only smaller.

A year later I flew from there to Taiwan for the FTTT where I stayed for the next 8 years. I lived in Taiwan even though my Chinese was at best rudimentary, so I didn't have any dealings with the book rooms. I did occasionally visit the Hall 1 book room but I could never find anything I was interested in.

I came back to the US in the Fall of '95 and had a very difficult two years before I left. So although I was in the LRC for 20 years, I didn't see what it was like in the US until the last 2. But even so, I didn't buy any LSM books during that time and we didn't use the LSM books for morning watch, we just used the Bible.

Some people say that my experience was unique, how would I know how unique it was? I speak from my experience, what else can I do?

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

That's because what happened in the LRC in general did not affect me. I left Irving to go to Odessa, a home meeting that grew into a church in someone's home which then grew into a church in a meeting hall. I left when they were just unpacking the boxes for their first "book room"...

You asked Igzy how this is a practical discussion and not merely theoretical, because you never felt WL's "authority" personally. Yet you yourself know that your experience was not the majority experience. So when Igzy talks about "apostles" exercising real, practical control over churches, why do you respond as if you can't understand where he's coming from? That's what I don't understand.