Lee and the book of Job

[Paul Cox]

Once a brother returned from an LSM "training" where Lee had been pontificating over one of the minor prophets. The brother gleefully reported to me: "Well, he did it again."

Did what again?

"Saw the church-life in the book of_____"

Lee "saw" the church-life in almost every verse in the Bible. When he couldn't, then the writer had a problem. He was a one issue man.

Recently I had given to me a footnoted bible by Jimmy Swargart, another one issue man. In just about every footnote there is the revelation of the Cross of Calvary. Not to take away from the Cross of Calvary (God forbid), but I believe God was trying to show us more than just that.

Neither do I think that God's whole intent was to show us the "church-life" in Job and every other book in the bible.

But in Lee's case, he had to make his version of the church-life supreme, lest anyone dared to think of leaving. You know, the whole thousand years in darkness thing.

P.C.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

Once a brother returned from an LSM "training" where Lee had been pontificating over one of the minor prophets. The brother gleefully reported to me: "Well, he did it again."

Did what again?

"Saw the church-life in the book of_____"

Lee "saw" the church-life in almost every verse in the Bible. When he couldn't, then the writer had a problem. He was a one issue man.

Recently I had given to me a footnoted bible by Jimmy Swargart, another one issue man. In just about every footnote there is the revelation of the Cross of Calvary. Not to take away from the Cross of Calvary (God forbid), but I believe God was trying to show us more than just that.

Neither do I think that God's whole intent was to show us the "church-life" in Job and every other book in the bible.

But in Lee's case, he had to make his version of the church-life supreme, lest anyone dared to think of leaving. You know, the whole thousand years in darkness thing.

P.C.

So our dearest brother ZNP is being Lee-esque with his interpretation of the book of Job. His needle is stuck on one track : Job = Jesus ... Job = Jesus...

But in the end : Col 3:11b "but Christ is all, and in all."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

So our dearest brother ZNP is being Lee-esque with his interpretation of the book of Job. His needle is stuck on one track : Job = Jesus ... Job = Jesus...

But in the end : Col 3:11b "but Christ is all, and in all."

You are wrong, I have moved on to 8 track now, I no longer use vinyl.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You are wrong, I have moved on to 8 track now, I no longer use vinyl.

Yeah awareness, what were you thinking?

Stuck needles sound so much worse than garbled 8-tracks.

[zeek]

Footnote to a footnote: Ghandi's use of non-violent passive resistence was influenced by Leo Tolstoy's book "The Kingdom of God is Within You." The title of the book is taken from Luke 17:21. In the book Tolstoy speaks of the principle of non-violent resistance when confronted by violence, as taught by Jesus (see Christian pacifism). Tolstoy sought to separate Orthodox Russian Christianity, which was merged with the state, from what he believed was the true message of Jesus Christ, as contained in the Gospels, specifically the Sermon on the Mount. Source: Wikipedia

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

Once a brother returned from an LSM "training" where Lee had been pontificating over one of the minor prophets. The brother gleefully reported to me: "Well, he did it again."

Did what again?

"Saw the church-life in the book of_____"

Lee "saw" the church-life in almost every verse in the Bible. When he couldn't, then the writer had a problem. He was a one issue man.

Recently I had given to me a footnoted bible by Jimmy Swargart, another one issue man. In just about every footnote there is the revelation of the Cross of Calvary. Not to take away from the Cross of Calvary (God forbid), but I believe God was trying to show us more than just that.

Neither do I think that God's whole intent was to show us the "church-life" in Job and every other book in the bible.

But in Lee's case, he had to make his version of the church-life supreme, lest anyone dared to think of leaving. You know, the whole thousand years in darkness thing.

P.C.

Which is why the LSM push to make WL the MOTA and stifle all other voices is so negative. If WL was merely one brother and you had many others speaking as well it would be wonderful and healthy. Once you lose the balance of the Body then the ship tips over and sinks. Gene Gruhler was something of a one issue brother when I was in the LRC, he seemed to always give conferences on the children's work. As just one of many voices that was wonderful and healthy. the Body needs balance.

[OBW]

Sorry, but I couldn’t resist a little of this thread. I am quick to admit that the Moody Blues were just secular rock stars who had a philosophical bent. Probably more like 5 philosophical bents.

But in the midst of all of it, when it wasn’t just love songs, they showed that seeking people are everywhere. And there is truth beyond the pulpit or the Bible. I’m not saying that there is different truth that contradicts, but that truth is found all around (everywhere, love is all around). And just because it was not originated from the pages of scripture does not make it untrue.

(Side note. I see awareness is going McLaren on us saying that the goal is that the Hindu would be a better Hindu, etc. That is true at a level. But for the Christian, it is not just that they would be better, but that they would come to know and follow the one true God. Yes, pray that they all become better. Pray for the peace and prosperity of the heathen within which we are sojourners, just as the Israelites were told to pray for their captors in Babylon. But also pray for their salvation.)

For us, it’s not just “out there somewhere.” We’re not just looking for a miracle in our lives. It’s not just in our wildest dreams.

Do we stop and look around us? Do we say it with love? (I know some are asking me that about now.) And do we really think that we decide which is right, and which is an illusion? Is our view a Late Lament or it is Dawn?

For several years I have seriously considered myself the one speaking in:

The curtain rises on the scene
With someone shouting to be free
The play unfolds before my eyes
There stand the actor who is . . . me

There is a word, but the word is not “om.”

As we travel this road, what will we find? Or do we think we have already found it all? While it seems that I am rejecting the “new stuff” that Lee came along with, I think that the depths of the straight reading are profound and unfathomable. We will never know it all — even the parts that are recorded in ways we think are so clear. That is the reason that people Like Justyn over at the Bereans think that the LRC’s problem is the Trinity. I agree that some of the problems are hanging off of their Trinity teaching. But their core teaching is sound.

There is a balance, but it doesn’t come from laying in the grass and eating some fruit. But as you lay there, it is seriously worthwhile to watch the show as the mouse plays a guitar with only one string.

But as we carry on, remember that while it may be a little too much to say that we are all we’ve got, we should never, never stop. But don’t bother telling me about it because I’m just a accountant in a Big 4 firm. But I’m now found in a lost world.

And just like the philosophy of the band slowly faded, my overtly manhandling of the lyrics and song titles also gets to be too much. And as someone else wrote, it’s time to Gimmie Shelter. I guess I’ll just fade away.

[zeek]

The Book of Job is the problem of evil in parable form. Struck by evil, Job appeals to the God of justice. The God who answers is not the God of justice but the God of power. The God of justice is Ultimate Justice which we know as the moral law within our mind. It is the God of whom Paul says: "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." The God of power is the God of nature who is incompatible with the God of justice. The God of Power knows no morality. It includes chaos, evil and suffering. It asserts that it is not subject to questions from mortal creatures, including man and that it has absolute freedom over everything. Yet, because Job does not lose sight of the law of justice and morality, Job is on higher ground than the God of power. His question persists and poses a challenge to God. It is a question which the New Testament seeks to answer via the incarnation of God as a man who himself suffers evil.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

The Book of Job is the problem of evil in parable form. Struck by evil, Job appeals to the God of justice....

This is certainly a reasonable reading and one that is generally accepted by those that teach the Bible. I think it is a simple thing to point to many parts of Job to construct this teaching.

There are some nagging issues with this teaching though.

1. According to this teaching the questions are left unresolved in the book of Job and are only later answered when we get to the NT, and the Gospels. But if you read the Book of Job it does not appear that Job's questions are left unresolved. On the contrary it seems Job clearly states that God answered Job and that Job received that answer, accepted it, repented, and then all of his suffering was resolved.

2. "The God who answers is not the God of Justice but the God of Power." What this person is saying is essentially the same thing that Awareness has presented and rejected and for good reason. The book of Proverbs makes it very clear that the foundation of God's throne is righteousness. God cannot lie. He cannot sin. He cannot do evil. Doing so would shake the foundation of His throne.

3. "Struck by evil." If Job is truly "struck by evil" then that evil came at the command of God. God knew of it and allowed it. No one can deny that Satan was under the authority of God when he attacked Job. The book of Job even describes the attack on Job coming from God's hand. Once again, I agree with Awareness on this point. He uses this point to conclude that the God of the OT is different from the God of the Gospels. That is where I disagree. I believe this is the same God. If I come to you and demand $300,000 you could argue that this is unrighteous. However, if the $300,000 is in exchange for a house or something of equal value, then it changes the story. This story begins with two key criteria, first there was none like Job in all the earth, and second Job sought God.

I believe that there are few people in history that can compare with Job. No doubt Jesus is one of them, but I can understand the issue with using him as an example. I would agree that you need a second example. So these other people, not as righteous, not as godly, come to the book of Job, see the suffering, and turn white. Their teaching reflects their squeamishness.

But the real question is this: "Do you have an arm like God, do you have a voice like God". If you believe this is a serious question, and that a man in the image and likeness of God would say yes, then this is what Job was seeking, this is why the cost was so high, and this is the answer God gives. I would use the example of Mahtma Ghandi. He told the British Empire that they would get up and leave, and they did. They packed their bags, boarded onto ships and sailed away just as he said. The Lord Jesus said "if you have faith like a grain of mustard you will say unto this mountain be taken up and cast into the sea and it will obey you". This to me is what it means to have a voice like God.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Job clearly states that God answered Job and that Job received that answer, accepted it, repented, and then all of his suffering was resolved.

Spoken like someone that's never lost a son/child. God, using the devil, can't take your children, then replace them with new ones, and make up for that loss. Sorry. It doesn't work that way ...

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

Sorry, but I couldn’t resist a little of this thread. I am quick to admit that the Moody Blues were just secular rock stars who had a philosophical bent. Probably more like 5 philosophical bents.

Bro Mike, I personally know "the Bible is the word of God" type of Christians that love the Moody Blues.

I spoke to one of them today. He said the Moody's expressed a Christian message, and expressed Christian questions about living a spiritual life.

And I say : Amen!

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Which is why the LSM push to make WL the MOTA and stifle all other voices is so negative. If WL was merely one brother and you had many others speaking as well it would be wonderful and healthy. Once you lose the balance of the Body then the ship tips over and sinks. Gene Gruhler was something of a one issue brother when I was in the LRC, he seemed to always give conferences on the children's work. As just one of many voices that was wonderful and healthy. the Body needs balance.

I thought they were just exercising their right to freedom of speech within their own four walls?

[Paul Cox]

I miss that eight-track in the glove compartment of my '73 Dodge Polara.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

I miss that eight-track in the glove compartment of my '73 Dodge Polara.

Yeah, great car.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I thought they were just exercising their right to freedom of speech within their own four walls?

Are you confusing the US constitution with the Bible?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Are you confusing the US constitution with the Bible?

"They who know of no purer sources of truth, who have traced up its stream no higher, stand, and wisely stand, by the Bible and the constitution, and drink at it there with reverence and humanity; but they who behold where it comes trickling into this lake or that pool, gird up their loins once more, and continue their pilgrimage toward its fountainhead." - Henry David Thoreau - Civil Disobedience.....

Incidentally, both Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. credited Thoreaus' Civil Disobedience as influencing them to non-violent actions....

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Are you confusing the US constitution with the Bible?

Is it different when you do it?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Is it different when you do it?

Sure, in the example with LSM and LRC stifling all other voices other than WL I point out the error in this. Everyone has their own opinions, including WL. If you stifle all others you allow one opinion to become so dominant that it is similar to a harmonic frequency destroying a bridge.

In your example with Minoru Chen you were the one trying to stifle his opinion. No doubt, his opinion affected everyone within the four walls of the meeting hall, but that is true of hundreds of other opinions. Why does the meeting start at 10 and not 9:30? That is someone's opinion. Why is the meeting hall kept at 68 degrees and not 70? Why do we have 2 meetings on Sunday and not one longer meeting? Why can't we share from the book Lord of the Rings in the meetings? Why don't we sing more Led Zeppelin songs during the meeting?

It was these kind of opinions that caused the Anaheim faction to claim that TC was "fleshly" and excommunicate him. I took a public stance opposing that decision.

Lots and lots of opinions.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

In your example with Minoru Chen you were the one trying to stifle his opinion. No doubt, his opinion affected everyone within the four walls of the meeting hall, but that is true of hundreds of other opinions. Why does the meeting start at 10 and not 9:30? That is someone's opinion. Why is the meeting hall kept at 68 degrees and not 70? Why do we have 2 meetings on Sunday and not one longer meeting? Why can't we share from the book Lord of the Rings in the meetings? Why don't we sing more Led Zeppelin songs during the meeting?

Well, if Minoru's statement had been intended to apply only "in the meetings", then I guess what you're saying would make sense.

Unfortunately, you're the only one who seems to understand him this way...

[zeek]

You know, the whole thousand years in darkness thing.

It seems to me that a thousand years would be a just sentence for a mass murderer or serial killer who killed 10 people. It seems like overkill for not showing up for meetings. I'm just sayin'. :rollingeyes2: