Lee and the book of Job

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is a load of silliness.

God neither becomes a demon nor masquerades as one.

What Job is about is God stripping Job of everything but God himself. No matter what happens, God remains good, and if you cling to God you will eventually experience ultimate, infinite, eternal good. But if you fall for the line of the short-sighted unbelievers who blanche at the stripping process, you will be deceived and miss out.

Under no circumstances are we to view God as a demon. Jesus didn't, and he suffered more than anyone.

We are allowed to ask "why" though. As in "My God, why have you forsaken me?"

God knows better than us. The sooner we figure that out the sooner we'll drop these man-centered interpretations of Job.

Don't get me wrong. If what happened to Job happened to me I'd be screaming about it, too. But eventually the correct response is "Holy is the Lord, Amen!" That's just the way it is.

Here's what the book says:

Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
6 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.” 7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head. 8 Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.

Satan says to God "stretch out your hand... and he will curse your face. The Lord answers, " Very well... he is in your hands."

How can we explain this close association between the Lord and Satan? Satan says if you stretch out your hand, and God answers "very well" as if agreeing to strike Job, but then says "he is in your hands". It's as if God's hands are synonymous with Satan's.

As awareness has pointed out, how could the omnisicent Lord not already know what was in Job's heart? At the very least, we must admit that God allows evil. But if we are not to lapse into Gnostic dualism, how can we not but admit that God, the ultimate source of everything must also be the ultimate source of evil?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Here's what the book says:
Satan says to God "stretch out your hand... and he will curse your face. The Lord answers, " Very well... he is in your hands."
How can we explain this close association between the Lord and Satan? Satan says if you stretch out your hand, and God answers "very well" as if agreeing to strike Job, but then says "he is in your hands". It's as if God's hands are synonymous with Satan's.
As awareness has pointed out, how could the omnisicent Lord not already know what was in Job's heart? At the very least, we must admit that God allows evil. But if we are not to lapse into Gnostic dualism, how can we not but admit that God, the ultimate source of everything must also be the ultimate source of evil?

God says in Isaiah 45:7 "I create evil."

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by awareness

God says in Isaiah 45:7 "I create evil."

Now Harold what did I just tell you about being myopic when quoting a single verse?

Here's the WHOLE VERSE:
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. NASB
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things. KJV

The more modern of the English translations, the NASB, renders a more true sense of the Hebrew here. Notice how light is juxtaposed with darkness, then peace is juxtaposed with "evil". The word translated “peace” here is the all-too-familiar Hebrew “Shalom” – the word translated “evil” is a somewhat more obscure (to us) Hewbrew “Ra”. So what shall we suppose to be the opposite of “Shalom/Peace”? It would certainly not be what the English reader would understand as “Evil”, at least not in the conventional sense of the word.(as you have implied). It would be more along the lines of “un-peace” or “anti peace”, thus the rendering of the NASB “calamity”.

For a complete treatment of this see: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/create_evil.html

Harold if you are going to be quoting God and his Word don’t be so off-the-cuff and sloppy.

[awareness]

Don't be so quick to jump me bro. I have quoted the whole verse on this forum more than once. And referenced book, chapter and verse.

From Strongs, on the word evil (calamity) in the verse

H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]


Does that meet your standard of thoroughness?

[zeek]

Consider the following syllogism.

God created everything.
Evil is a thing.
Therefore, God created evil.

If God did not create everything, then someone else could have created evil. But then you have two creators and hence, reality is dualistic and God is not all powerful.

There is also a theological tradition that evil does not really exist. Evil is merely the absence of good. If so, there is no devil or Satan.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by zeek

Consider the following syllogism.

God created everything.
Evil is a thing.
Therefore, God created evil.

If God did not create everything, then someone else could have created evil. But then you have two creators and hence, reality is dualistic and God is not all powerful.

There is also a theological tradition that evil does not really exist. Evil is merely the absence of good. If so, there is no devil or Satan.

Were jumping back into the topic of Elvis has left the building. After all that still the same...

Evil is good gone wrong. If pure evil existed then I would put into question whether or not that was created from a all good God. But I cannot. Anything anyone has ever done, any evil act can be rationalized to benefit one group/person. unless some kind of irrational mental disability was present.

God did not create evil. God created the possibility of choice which allowed for "good gone wrong".

And were back to free will again lookie here..

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Leomon

Were jumping back into the topic of Elvis has left the building. After all that still the same...

Evil is good gone wrong. If pure evil existed then I would put into question whether or not that was created from a all good God. But I cannot. Anything anyone has ever done, any evil act can be rationalized to benefit one group/person. unless some kind of irrational mental disability was present.

God did not create evil. God created the possibility of choice which allowed for "good gone wrong".

And were back to free will again lookie here..

In the parable of Job, it is not humans doing evil. It's God and the devil conspiring together to do evil to humans and critters [Job's children, servents, and sheep]. The fire that burned up the servants and the she ids called "the fire of God" chapter 1:16. I'm not making this stuff up. It's right in the Bible.

[UntoHim]

Harold you missed the point, and on purpose I suspect.

God did not say "I create evil". The Hebrew word rendered "evil" was juxtaposed to "Shalom". This comparison was made immediately after comparison of light and darkness. The comparisons could not be more clearer. Would you argue that the opposite of light is not darkness? The opposite of shalom/peace is NOT "evil" in the conventional understanding of the word in English.

You are doing what Witness Lee did when he taught that when the word spirit (pneuma) is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:45 it MUST refer to the Holy Spirit, and he did this despite the context of the whole verse and whole chapter it was placed within.

I am not being flippant when I say we need to interpret the Bible with the Bible. This does not mean that we cannot bring other forms of logic and common sense into the mix, especially when it comes to the matter of context.

Does it teach anywhere in the Bible that God created evil? Did any of the prophets teach that God created evil? Did any of the writers of the New Testament teach that God created evil?

[UntoHim]

Zeek, no God did not create everything.

God did not create sin or greed or evil for that matter.

Did God create the Jet Airplane? Did God create the evilness in those men that flew the Jet Airplane into the World Trade Center?

This is a philosophical bottomless pit that has no place here on this thread, and probably not on this forum. It will only lead us to discussions of the "endless questions" that the Word warns us not to delve into.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

[COLOR="Blue"]Zeek, no God did not create everything.

God did not create sin or greed or evil for that matter.

Well the book of Job reveals that God let's the devil do his dirty work ... and limits him. So God is too behind evil, ultimately. Sorry UnToHim, but that's what the Bible says.

This is a philosophical bottomless pit that has no place here on this thread, and probably not on this forum.

I'm glad you brought this up. So what and who belongs on this forum? I thought anyone out or in the local church belongs on this forum.

So is this forum only for those that came out of the LC and became Bible thumpin evangelicals or fundamentalists?

I thump the Bible. But I'm not an evangelical or fundamentalist.

Witness Lee based his whole theology on the Bible being the word of God. In that way he was able to puzzle piece verses of the Bible together to develop his systematized theology.

So as far as I'm concerned, that assumption and premise is fair game.

But if not, if there are perimeters that limit exLCers from sharing what they've become since the local church, and they have to come out with only certain beliefs and points of view, please let us know.

Maybe I don't belong on this forum.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by awareness

God says in Isaiah 45:7 "I create evil."

Why do you keep quoting that awareness.

Do you like taking that verse out of context?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Leomon

Why do you keep quoting that awareness.

Do you like taking that verse out of context?

How does the context negate "I do these things, I create evil."

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by awareness

How does the context negate "I do these things, I create evil."

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

You can look up any interpretation on the "create evil" verse.

It does not mean moral evil.

But you properly look into the words "evil" was translated from it means more "calamity"

I think it is consistent with the gospels and OT that God created calamity in that sense. He has every right to test those to see if they are worthy of him. We see in Israel that he allowed the Babylonians to take over Isreal. So that he could have a remnant that would follow him and learn from their mistakes.

Since the beginning God gave human being the choice of allowing or dis-obeying. Tree of knowledge and to partake of it can be interpreted in every sense as calamity for Adam and Eve.

God will punish those who dis-obey him. I dont see how that is evil. God can take away what he gave you, I dont see what is evil about that.

So stop using that verse to try to convince others that this means Moral evil.

It simply means that God will punish those who dis-obey.

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, NIV)


This verse is to convey opposites. The opposite or prosperity is not moral evil. It is unpeace, or disaster.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Leomon

You can look up any interpretation on the "create evil" verse.

It does not mean moral evil.

But you properly look into the words "evil" was translated from it means more "calamity"

I think it is consistent with the gospels and OT that God created calamity in that sense. He has every right to test those to see if they are worthy of him. We see in Israel that he allowed the Babylonians to take over Isreal. So that he could have a remnant that would follow him and learn from their mistakes.

Since the beginning God gave human being the choice of allowing or dis-obeying. Tree of knowledge and to partake of it can be interpreted in every sense as calamity for Adam and Eve.

God will punish those who dis-obey him. I dont see how that is evil. God can take away what he gave you, I dont see what is evil about that.

So stop using that verse to try to convince others that this means Moral evil.

It simply means that God will punish those who dis-obey.

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, NIV)


This verse is to convey opposites. The opposite or prosperity is not moral evil. It is unpeace, or disaster.

Matt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

God creates the floods, and hurricanes, and fires, and earthquakes and volcanoes, and tsunamis, etc. However, what is evil is when someone builds a nuclear power plant on the coast and doesn't provide the proper safeguards so that if a Typhoon, or earthquake or tsunami were to knock out the power they can prevent a calamity. What is evil is telling the public that everything is safe, and taking billions of taxpayer dollars to build this, but leaving out basic safeguards that could have been there and should have been there.

What is truly evil is not the earthquake, but it is the city that was built on sand (Kobe) which was over a fault zone. A city that any geologist could have told you would be destroyed by liquefaction when the earthquake hits. Yet they build it in blindness.

What is truly evil is taking hundreds of millions of dollars to wall up the Mississippi river when any geologist could tell you that the result would be total catastrophe if a hurricane hits.

What is truly evil is fighting terrorism with little remote control airplanes that anyone could afford to build. Teaching the entire world of potential terrorists that you don't need a 747 to strike terror into a US city.

These calamities demonstrate that our societies and civilization is built on sand, not on the rock. We did not listen to these sayings of Jesus and we did not do them. This is why the calamities are evil.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What is truly evil is not the earthquake, but it is the city that was built on sand (Kobe) which was over a fault zone. A city that any geologist could have told you would be destroyed by liquefaction when the earthquake hits. Yet they build it in blindness.

What is truly evil is taking hundreds of millions of dollars to wall up the Mississippi river when any geologist could tell you that the result would be total catastrophe if a hurricane hits.

What is truly evil is fighting terrorism with little remote control airplanes that anyone could afford to build. Teaching the entire world of potential terrorists that you don't need a 747 to strike terror into a US city.

These calamities demonstrate that our societies and civilization is built on sand, not on the rock. We did not listen to these sayings of Jesus and we did not do them. This is why the calamities are evil.

So, where do you live again, Mr. ZNP, I forget?