What is a Glorious Church life?

Cal · 07-31-2008, 02:49 PM

I recall James saying in a meeting that the Lord led him to go to OKC. I clearly recall him saying that he realized that Oklahomans were "his kind of people," meaning they were culturally similar to his roots. He seemed quite excited about moving there.

Guest1 · 07-31-2008, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

I recall James saying in a meeting that the Lord led him to go to OKC. I clearly recall him saying that he realized that Oklahomans were "his kind of people," meaning they were culturally similar to his roots. He seemed quite excited about moving there.

this sounds much more like the real thing..

djohnson(XLCmember) · 07-31-2008, 06:27 PM

Here is a quote from Brent Barber about it:

"I only know the scandal in terms of how it affected my dad and it pretty much ruined his life as he was never the same after getting booted from hall 2 and sent out to pasture. He made the best of it and cultivated something good in OK, but his spirit and heart were broken after he lost all the young people in LA. I am not laying any of that at anyone's feet but the politics that Lee used to decimate his rivals and smear anyone who threatened his primacy. You only have to look at what happened ten years later with John Ingalls and Al Knoch to know that he never changed his MO of scorched earth."

Thankful Jane · 07-31-2008, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djohnson

Here is a quote from Brent Barber about it:

"I only know the scandal in terms of how it affected my dad and it pretty much ruined his life as he was never the same after getting booted from hall 2 and sent out to pasture. He made the best of it and cultivated something good in OK, but his spirit and heart were broken after he lost all the young people in LA. I am not laying any of that at anyone's feet but the politics that Lee used to decimate his rivals and smear anyone who threatened his primacy. You only have to look at what happened ten years later with John Ingalls and Al Knoch to know that he never changed his MO of scorched earth."

I can confirm this having heard about Lee's bad treatment of James directly from Virginia (about 10 years after he died). I can't remember the details now of the story about how James ended up in OKC, but I remember that it was not a result of his burden, but Lee's directive.

She said Lee was very abusive and that his treatment of James tore him up because James looked to him like a father figure. She and the boys hated to see him go to a training in Anaheim because of the state he would be in when he returned, after having been mishandled (she said "abused") by Lee while there. She said the family usually took the brunt of his upset. This information was shocking to me.

Thankful Jane

finallyprettyokay · 07-31-2008, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I can confirm this having heard about Lee's bad treatment of James directly from Virginia (about 10 years after he died). I can't remember the details now of the story about how James ended up in OKC, but I remember that it was not a result of his burden, but Lee's directive.

She said Lee was very abusive and that his treatment of James tore him up because James looked to him like a father figure. She and the boys hated to see him go to a training in Anaheim because of the state he would be in when he returned, after having been mishandled (she said "abused") by Lee while there. She said the family usually took the brunt of his upset. This information was shocking to me.

Thankful Jane

Heartbreaking.

I have seen more loyalty from stone cold heathens.

Sad, sad, sad.

FPO

djohnson(XLCmember) · 07-31-2008, 08:47 PM

Perhaps James as a matter of discretion did not offer this information publicly but of course his family would know. Seems like he put on a happy face but inwardly was eaten up.

Guest1 · 07-31-2008, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djohnson

Perhaps James as a matter of discretion did not offer this information publicly but of course his family would know. Seems like he put on a happy face but inwardly was eaten up.

oh no .. i dont doubt the above posts.. at all... i was just relating my own personal experience.. i was almost out when all this happened.. and i had no further communication with what happened after that.. i do know that a horrible rumour went around about Charlie Hagens .. who i grew up with etc etc .. and they used it as a threat to keep people from leaving.. saying that his death was because he left the church.. so you see.. when you say in the other post i have strong words.. do you doubt why..

i for myself can tell you that he was not putting on anything ...James Barber.. he was a very real brother..

Guest1 · 07-31-2008, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djohnson

Here is a quote from Brent Barber about it:

"I only know the scandal in terms of how it affected my dad and it pretty much ruined his life as he was never the same after getting booted from hall 2 and sent out to pasture. He made the best of it and cultivated something good in OK, but his spirit and heart were broken after he lost all the young people in LA. I am not laying any of that at anyone's feet but the politics that Lee used to decimate his rivals and smear anyone who threatened his primacy. You only have to look at what happened ten years later with John Ingalls and Al Knoch to know that he never changed his MO of scorched earth."

can i ask a stupid question.. you told me that you are only an observer.. and were not in the lc.. how do you get all your info.. are you here by proxy for someone.. and can you verify the source.. where did you get the quote from Brent Barber.. i do believe it because Jane confirmed via Virginia.. (still hearsay though)

djohnson(XLCmember) · 07-31-2008, 11:18 PM

No I am not here by "proxy". I read Brent Barber's post on thebereans.net. That is where I got the quote from.

Guest1 · 07-31-2008, 11:30 PM

Oh thanks.. what he posted there?? wow could you give me the link please

Ohio · 08-01-2008, 07:10 AM

Quote:

oh thanks.. what he posted there?? wow could you give me the link please

Brent had many posts, see here:
http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/sea...searchid=99498

Brad B posted too:
http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/sho...992#post154992

OBW · 08-01-2008, 07:15 AM

I’m not sure this is what CMW had in mind when she started the thread, but these are my thoughts that come out of the title and a few of the existing comments.

First. What does “church life” mean? I never heard this phrase before or after the LC. What do we think is 1) theoretically intended and 2) practically meant by this term?

I do not have a full answer, but I can say that to the extent that it was about centering your life around your “church” experience, there is both value and error in that thought. If your church experience is where you are mainly reaching to God, worshipping, learning, growing, etc., then having this move into all of your life is a vast improvement. Surely our life is intended to be fully engulfed such that we are no longer the ones directing our lives, but Christ that lives in us. Of course this is what everyone else calls the Christian life. If this is the purpose of the term, then it falls squarely into the realm of a new term for an old but real experience that all of Christianity experiences (to the extent that they are actually growing — same as it applies to the LC to the extent that they are growing). That is valuable, but needs no special term, especially when the result seems to be claiming something that others who merely have the “Christian life” do not have.

But there is error in the thought if it is intended to mean that there is something so special about the corporate practices of the LC. If it means strictly your impression of your way of “doing church” then all serious Christians have a glorious church life. It may not be swinging from the rafters fun, always overtly joyous, or so openly participatory as the LC. But glory is not joy. Glory is not forms. Glory is not excitement. Glory is not bubbly enthusiasm. Glory is “praise, honor, or distinction extended by common consent.” Glorious is “possessing or deserving glory.” (definitions from M-W online dictionary) There may be a lot of talk about praising and worshipping God, but it seems that the glory is typically being given to the church. What is this about? I know. Someone will say “the church is the body of Christ.” But if there is glory in that, it is truly about the potential and not about the present reality. Although we are growing toward the fullness that is truly the body of Christ, it is the Christ that is in that spiritual body that makes it glorious, not the forms or teachings in the practical expression/assemblies that make it glorious.

As for the example of Bret Farve, I think that it is a poor example. Sorry aron, but Bret was not created for one thing — throwing footballs. He chose to become so given to this one aspect o his life and not look forward that when it came for him to move forward, he had no idea where to go. It’s sort of like those guys who retire after a workaholic life and die within two years because they have nothing without their work.

That is not what the Christian life is about. That is not “clearly seen” as the purpose for which man was created. I’m not even sure that the visions in Revelation about angels and/or elders constantly falling prostrate and saying “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come” is the “purpose of man.” While I’m not sure about the “elders,” the angels were created to do what they do. Further, the times concerning which the scenes written are not the last two chapters. In those chapters we have coming and going through the gates of the city. While full details are not provided, it appears to be more than all of the angels and those who are saved in a huge hall before God endlessly chanting His praises. I think that maybe there is something as hollow in that picture as there is in the one about a “mansion just over the hilltop in that bright land where we’ll never grow old” as we play golf on the best courses, fish in the best streams, or for you geeks, surf the internet on infinite bandwidth (

).

Instead, it may be that a creation with more than one thing to do that still chooses to praise and honor God and started by making that choice in the face of extreme duress to ignore God is more of what He wants. And maybe there is some validity to the notion that the New Jerusalem is as much about restoration of the situation in Eden, albeit at a completely different level, as it is about a gathering to Heaven to chant praises. In other words, the non-stop praising is not really what God wants. He already has that. If that was the point, then why bring Heaven to earth with a city having gates and streets and leaves to heal nations?

Maybe the only thing “glorious” about the church is not the “church life” but the Christ that is displayed by its participants as they gather to worship (however they do it) and spread out into the community the rest of the time living a life that truly loves their neighbor.

I read the blog of a friend recently who told of visiting a relative’s Presbyterian church when visiting Chattanooga. They expected to observe nothing spiritual. But they decided to see it from God’s perspective and saw 500 people who lifted their voices to read a genuine prayer of thanksgiving and repentance, among other things. They still do not chose the Presbyterian way, but they now recognize that the glory is in God and not the service, the style, or the teachings.

07-31-2008, 06:27 PM	#3
djohnson(XLCmember) Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 318	Quote from Brent Barber Here is a quote from Brent Barber about it: "I only know the scandal in terms of how it affected my dad and it pretty much ruined his life as he was never the same after getting booted from hall 2 and sent out to pasture. He made the best of it and cultivated something good in OK, but his spirit and heart were broken after he lost all the young people in LA. I am not laying any of that at anyone's feet but the politics that Lee used to decimate his rivals and smear anyone who threatened his primacy. You only have to look at what happened ten years later with John Ingalls and Al Knoch to know that he never changed his MO of scorched earth." __________________ My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ!

07-31-2008, 08:47 PM	#6
djohnson(XLCmember) Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 318	Perhaps James as a matter of discretion did not offer this information publicly but of course his family would know. Seems like he put on a happy face but inwardly was eaten up. __________________ My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ!

07-31-2008, 11:18 PM	#9
djohnson(XLCmember) Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 318	No I am not here by "proxy". I read Brent Barber's post on thebereans.net. That is where I got the quote from. __________________ My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ!

07-31-2008, 11:30 PM	#10
Guest1 Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 43	Oh thanks.. what he posted there?? wow could you give me the link please __________________ Colossians 1:14 In Whom We have Redemption through His Blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

08-01-2008, 07:15 AM	#12
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,384	I’m not sure this is what CMW had in mind when she started the thread, but these are my thoughts that come out of the title and a few of the existing comments. First. What does “church life” mean? I never heard this phrase before or after the LC. What do we think is 1) theoretically intended and 2) practically meant by this term? I do not have a full answer, but I can say that to the extent that it was about centering your life around your “church” experience, there is both value and error in that thought. If your church experience is where you are mainly reaching to God, worshipping, learning, growing, etc., then having this move into all of your life is a vast improvement. Surely our life is intended to be fully engulfed such that we are no longer the ones directing our lives, but Christ that lives in us. Of course this is what everyone else calls the Christian life. If this is the purpose of the term, then it falls squarely into the realm of a new term for an old but real experience that all of Christianity experiences (to the extent that they are actually growing — same as it applies to the LC to the extent that they are growing). That is valuable, but needs no special term, especially when the result seems to be claiming something that others who merely have the “Christian life” do not have. But there is error in the thought if it is intended to mean that there is something so special about the corporate practices of the LC. If it means strictly your impression of your way of “doing church” then all serious Christians have a glorious church life. It may not be swinging from the rafters fun, always overtly joyous, or so openly participatory as the LC. But glory is not joy. Glory is not forms. Glory is not excitement. Glory is not bubbly enthusiasm. Glory is “praise, honor, or distinction extended by common consent.” Glorious is “possessing or deserving glory.” (definitions from M-W online dictionary) There may be a lot of talk about praising and worshipping God, but it seems that the glory is typically being given to the church. What is this about? I know. Someone will say “the church is the body of Christ.” But if there is glory in that, it is truly about the potential and not about the present reality. Although we are growing toward the fullness that is truly the body of Christ, it is the Christ that is in that spiritual body that makes it glorious, not the forms or teachings in the practical expression/assemblies that make it glorious. As for the example of Bret Farve, I think that it is a poor example. Sorry aron, but Bret was not created for one thing — throwing footballs. He chose to become so given to this one aspect o his life and not look forward that when it came for him to move forward, he had no idea where to go. It’s sort of like those guys who retire after a workaholic life and die within two years because they have nothing without their work. That is not what the Christian life is about. That is not “clearly seen” as the purpose for which man was created. I’m not even sure that the visions in Revelation about angels and/or elders constantly falling prostrate and saying “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come” is the “purpose of man.” While I’m not sure about the “elders,” the angels were created to do what they do. Further, the times concerning which the scenes written are not the last two chapters. In those chapters we have coming and going through the gates of the city. While full details are not provided, it appears to be more than all of the angels and those who are saved in a huge hall before God endlessly chanting His praises. I think that maybe there is something as hollow in that picture as there is in the one about a “mansion just over the hilltop in that bright land where we’ll never grow old” as we play golf on the best courses, fish in the best streams, or for you geeks, surf the internet on infinite bandwidth (). Instead, it may be that a creation with more than one thing to do that still chooses to praise and honor God and started by making that choice in the face of extreme duress to ignore God is more of what He wants. And maybe there is some validity to the notion that the New Jerusalem is as much about restoration of the situation in Eden, albeit at a completely different level, as it is about a gathering to Heaven to chant praises. In other words, the non-stop praising is not really what God wants. He already has that. If that was the point, then why bring Heaven to earth with a city having gates and streets and leaves to heal nations? Maybe the only thing “glorious” about the church is not the “church life” but the Christ that is displayed by its participants as they gather to worship (however they do it) and spread out into the community the rest of the time living a life that truly loves their neighbor. I read the blog of a friend recently who told of visiting a relative’s Presbyterian church when visiting Chattanooga. They expected to observe nothing spiritual. But they decided to see it from God’s perspective and saw 500 people who lifted their voices to read a genuine prayer of thanksgiving and repentance, among other things. They still do not chose the Presbyterian way, but they now recognize that the glory is in God and not the service, the style, or the teachings. __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

07-31-2008, 02:49 PM	#1
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,333	I recall James saying in a meeting that the Lord led him to go to OKC. I clearly recall him saying that he realized that Oklahomans were "his kind of people," meaning they were culturally similar to his roots. He seemed quite excited about moving there.