Lee and the book of Job

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

In that active discussion I was accused of having "Lee esque" teaching. I challenged this, in Post #165, Elvis has left the building, "If this is so Lee esque, why don't you quote what Lee shared on the book of Job. Lee never shared any of this. This is a genuine straw man argument that you have not provided the least bit of evidence to support. Provide one quote from WL that he interpreted Job this way, because I never saw it."

I promised one response in this thread. I will make to to this opening point in this post. Then I will leave it to the asylum.

I am not going to read the remainder of your post. I see that it essentially ends with the same 3-point statements about what that verse about God's arm and voice are about. This is one of the very statements "out of the air" that I need more than your words about. They need to connect to the text. But instead you say that because we are to bear the image of God we are to have it. Huh?? Say again??

The answer to the above point you make is to note that you don't actually read the questions. or you don't actually want to respond to them. So you create one strawman after another. Complain that I am calling you a liar or something like that. It really doesn't matter because nothing Lee shared is relevant to the discussion that I thought we were trying to have or to my complaints about your posts.

It is this. And only this. Your method of interpreting scripture does not seem to actually deal with the scripture being used. You make statements about God suggesting we should have an arm of strength. Or that it is really about the One New Man. But when I can't see how you get from the verses you use to that position, you just mock me and do not give a response. That is what is Lee-esque. Say your piece, refuse questions, and mock those with different interpretations. It would appear that your interpretation is based upon something that is not being revealed. Until you reveal it, there is no rational basis to accept your position.

Awareness asked for something that takes us, step by step, from Job to the One New Man. You don't even try. I ask the same question. Not to help out awareness, but because I don't see it either. More of the same.

But, from past experience, I would expect that right about now you would be gearing up to go quote more Lee from his life study of Job and prove that you are not just being Lee-esque.

And then, once again, you would answer a question not asked but claim that you had.

That is a strawman. Plain and simple. I guess you think everyone else is too stupid to see through it.

I do. And I'm tired of your madness. It needs a method. And an opening so that you can check to see when it is ultimately right or wrong. Instead, you seem to presume that I and everyone else should just accept your word for everything and shut up.

So I will.

[awareness]

I went to the trouble to present all the verses in the New Testament that, referenced the book of Job, cuz I was hoping there was a remote chance that brother ZNP might be onto something.

But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.

So unless our brother ZNP can pull a rabbit out of his hat, and prove otherwise, I'm forced to conclude that bro Z's claims are totally his concoction, pretty much made out of whole new cloth.

I might add that both his claims come straight from Witness Lee. Who taught that the purpose of man is to express God, and that it would be accomplished by "The Building" culminating in the New Jerusalem.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I went to the trouble to present all the verses in the New Testament that, referenced the book of Job, cuz I was hoping there was a remote chance that brother ZNP might be onto something.

Thank you, your hard work is much appreciated.

Originally Posted by awareness

But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.

I am tempted to misquote John Houseman here, but that wouldn't be decent.

Originally Posted by awareness

So unless our brother ZNP can pull a rabbit out of his hat, and prove otherwise, I'm forced to conclude that bro Z's claims are totally his concoction, pretty much made out of whole new cloth.

Relax, I will respond. However, I have no intention of pulling rabbits out of these verses, only Christ, the Church and God's purpose for man.

Originally Posted by awareness

I might add that both his claims come straight from Witness Lee. Who taught that the purpose of man is to express God, and that it would be accomplished by "The Building" culminating in the New Jerusalem.

Well I am glad you added that because otherwise this entire post is off topic as well as all the verses you posted. They should be in a thread "Job and the NT".

I think everyone will agree that WL taught certain Bible truths, and to say that "Justification by Faith" came from WL because he taught it is absurd. WL gave a Life Study on Job, I have quoted relevant quotes from the Life Study to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that WL did not teach any of this about Job. Therefore, it is ridiculous to say that my claims come straight from WL. If I had stood up during the LS of Job and taught this I would have been shouted down as being rebellious.

So, WL taught the Purpose of Man is to express God. That is a Bible truth. If you want to discuss this truth start a new thread. WL taught the Bible culminates in the NJ. That also is a Bible truth. If you want to discuss that truth, start a new thread. But WL also taught that there is nothing of God's purpose in the book of Job. That is a "Lee esque" teaching. I did not teach that. You and OBW did. If anyone has "Lee esque" teachings on Job it is you and OBW. You should have the common decency to admit it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.

Job 7:17 - What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?

This is one of the questions that Job addresses to God. In Post #126 (all referenced posts are from the thread on Elvis has left the building). I lumped this verse into the first part of the question as “What is the point to life?” Later, in God’s answer, I put his answer into two parts. In part 1 I said that the answer would be that all the troubles and suffering in the book of Job were God laying the foundation in Job’s life, not annulling all the work he had done. In part 2 I said that the answer is that we were made in the image and likeness of God, the point of life is to express God.

So here is the section in Hebrews that quotes Job 7:17
2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Clearly, this verse is quoted in Hebrews as referring to Jesus. And, the reference is about how man doesn’t look like anything, he was made lower than the angels so that he could go through the suffering of death and taste death for every man, and that passing through that he was crowned with Glory and honor. This is also what I said the book of Job is about. The sufferings that Job passes through lay the foundation for his life, and for him to be a man in the image of God.

In Post #129, Awareness asks “still weak. Where is the man God is makin.” The man is here, referenced in Hebrews 2:5-9. The writer says clearly “we see Jesus” referring, in part to this reference in Job.

In Post #135 I said that Jesus is a man that meets this standard. In #136 I said Jesus is such a man.

In Post #139 OBW said “And this is what I find continually lacking in these kinds of arguments. The mere fact that you can discuss the attributes of Jesus in these terms does not make this book about it.”

In Post #145 OBW said “This book is the early discussion about the coexistence of God and evil. It is not a prophetic book about Jesus or the church.” Tell that to the writer of Hebrews.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Job 7:17 - What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?

This is one of the questions that Job addresses to God. In Post #126 (all referenced posts are from the thread on Elvis has left the building). I lumped this verse into the first part of the question as “What is the point to life?” Later, in God’s answer, I put his answer into two parts. In part 1 I said that the answer would be that all the troubles and suffering in the book of Job were God laying the foundation in Job’s life, not annulling all the work he had done. In part 2 I said that the answer is that we were made in the image and likeness of God, the point of life is to express God.

So here is the section in Hebrews that quotes Job 7:17
2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Clearly, this verse is quoted in Hebrews as referring to Jesus. And, the reference is about how man doesn’t look like anything, he was made lower than the angels so that he could go through the suffering of death and taste death for every man, and that passing through that he was crowned with Glory and honor. This is also what I said the book of Job is about. The sufferings that Job passes through lay the foundation for his life, and for him to be a man in the image of God.

In Post #129, Awareness asks “still weak. Where is the man God is makin.” The man is here, referenced in Hebrews 2:5-9. The writer says clearly “we see Jesus” referring, in part to this reference in Job.

In Post #135 I said that Jesus is a man that meets this standard. In #136 I said Jesus is such a man.

In Post #139 OBW said “And this is what I find continually lacking in these kinds of arguments. The mere fact that you can discuss the attributes of Jesus in these terms does not make this book about it.”

In Post #145 OBW said “This book is the early discussion about the coexistence of God and evil. It is not a prophetic book about Jesus or the church.” Tell that to the writer of Hebrews.

Well okay bro Z. I see your point/s. Good work, but you are still stretching the book of Job into "the purpose of man is to express God," and that the book of Job is to build a man. That is clearly not what the author of Job intended.

The fact that the author of Hebrews used Job to make his point does not change the book of Job into pictures we wish to design upon it.

But good and harmless work bro Z. I knew you'd come thru eventually.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well okay bro Z. I see your point/s. Good work, but you are still stretching the book of Job into "the purpose of man is to express God," and that the book of Job is to build a man. That is clearly not what the author of Job intended.

The fact that the author of Hebrews used Job to make his point does not change the book of Job into pictures we wish to design upon it.

But good and harmless work bro Z. I knew you'd come thru eventually.

That was one verse, let me finish.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.

12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Verse 5 and 6 parallel Job 5:17 and 23:10

According to Hebrews we should look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who endured the cross, despised the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of Glory when we are going through experiences similar to those described in Job. Clearly the writer of Hebrews sees Jesus in the book of Job. He sees the story of Jesus being crucified, resurrected and ascended as an example for us also to endure the same and compares that story to the story of Job.

And the path of the cross that Jesus took in Heb 12:2 and that we should follow in verses 12:3-6 leads to Mount Zion:

12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,More…
12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

But I found no evidence to support ZNP's claim that the book of Job teaches that the purpose of man is to express God, nor do I find any evidence that the book of Job is about God building a man.

If it were true, then the New Testament writers would have picked up on it and ran with it. They didn't.

12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.More
12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Verse 26 is a reference to Job 9:6. The verse is explained by the writer of Hebrews to mean “the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain”. This is the book of Job in a nutshell. This is what I meant when I talked about the cataclysmic event that “laid the foundation” of the Earth. It was this foundation that set the stage for life on this planet. In the same way the events in Job laid the foundation for Job to receive the kingdom which cannot be moved.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I went to the trouble to present all the verses in the New Testament that, referenced the book of Job, cuz I was hoping there was a remote chance that brother ZNP might be onto something.

4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heartMore
4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 4:13 is a reference to Job 26:6. The point here is that the people of God have not arrived, they need to labor to enter into that rest. We have the word of God and we have Jesus our high priest. Therefore we can get the timely help we need. In the book of Job he asks who this man is and where is he, and asks if God has eyes of flesh to judge us. Job’s question to God is very clear, we need help, we need someone that can understand and sympathize with man of flesh. I said that God’s answer is that Jesus, the man in the image and likeness of God, is that man. The writer of Hebrews also says the same, though he brings in this light about the word of God also.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Your method of interpreting scripture does not seem to actually deal with the scripture being used. You make statements about God suggesting we should have an arm of strength. Or that it is really about the One New Man. But when I can't see how you get from the verses you use to that position, you just mock me and do not give a response. That is what is Lee-esque. Say your piece, refuse questions, and mock those with different interpretations. It would appear that your interpretation is based upon something that is not being revealed. Until you reveal it, there is no rational basis to accept your position.

Awareness asked for something that takes us, step by step, from Job to the One New Man. You don't even try. I ask the same question. Not to help out awareness, but because I don't see it either. More of the same.

1Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.Moe
3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Verse 19 is quoted from Job 5:13. It is the conclusion to everything Paul has shared. Paul said as a wise master builder he has laid the foundation of the church. I said that the book of Job was about God laying a foundation for a man that expresses God. I said that this man is Jesus and it is also the “One New Man” the “Church” that God is building.

So in Post #137 Awareness asked for NT references to Job concerning the New Man. The New Man is the church, and Paul was laying the foundation to the church as a wise master builder in 1Cor 3. Also, Hebrews 12 refers to Job repeatedly as it leads us to the New Jerusalem, the City of our God, an unshakeable kingdom.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Awareness asked for something that takes us, step by step, from Job to the One New Man. You don't even try.

Yes, in Post #129 (Elvis has left the building) Awareness asked for these references to be provided in a step by step manner. However, I responded that it Post #64 he took God’s name in vain saying “The book [Job] has never been the same since to me. It really makes God, and the devil, buffoons.” I told him I would refuse to respond until he first cleared that up.

Deuteronomy 5:11 says that God will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain. It is time for Awareness to respond to what he said in Post #64

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, in Post #129 (Elvis has left the building) Awareness asked for these references to be provided in a step by step manner. However, I responded that it Post #64 he took God’s name in vain saying “The book [Job] has never been the same since to me. It really makes God, and the devil, buffoons.” I told him I would refuse to respond until he first cleared that up.

Deuteronomy 5:11 says that God will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain. It is time for Awareness to respond to what he said in Post #64

Sorry ZNP you've taken me all wrong. I'm not talking about God. I'm talking about how God, and the devil, is depicted in Job. Which is two different things.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Sorry ZNP you've taken me all wrong. I'm not talking about God. I'm talking about how God, and the devil, is depicted in Job. Which is two different things.

Well then, clear it up for us.

What did you mean when you said "it really makes God, and the devil, buffoons."?

[ZNPaaneah]

Rom 9:20 uses the analogy of God being a potter and we are the work of his hands. This quote alludes to Job 9:32. This is in line with the idea that God is building a man, an analogy similar to a potter making a pot. However, Romans 9 refers to the nation of Israel corporately. So this is another reference in the NT to Job, that Job doesn’t just represent a single man, but a plural man, and even the nation of Israel.

This section on Israel being grafted in is concluded in Rom 11:33 “O the dept of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!” This quote parallels Job 35:7. And Rom. 11:34 - For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Parallels Job 21:22. Rom. 11:35 – “Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?” is quoted from Job 41:11

[ZNPaaneah]

In Matt 16 Peter gets the Revelation that Jesus is the Christ, and then the Lord tells him upon this rock I will build my church. From that moment on Jesus begins to reveal that He will go to the cross. Peter rebukes him. Then in verse 26 Jesus says – “For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” This is an allusion to Job 27:8. The cross of Christ is the foundation of the Christian life, and the book of Job also talks about laying the foundation of man.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This section on Israel being grafted in is concluded in Rom 11:33 “O the dept of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!” This quote parallels Job 35:7. And Rom. 11:34 - For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Parallels Job 21:22. Rom. 11:35 – “Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?” is quoted from Job 41:11

Who is grafted into whom?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Well then, clear it up for us.

What did you mean when you said "it really makes God, and the devil, buffoons."?

Do you really want me to do this? I've had less intelligent people than you see it in Job. Shouldn't you be able to see it?

Just read Job and remember that God is suppose to be omniscient. Then answer me what this conversation is all about :

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Do you really want me to do this? I've had less intelligent people than you see it in Job. Shouldn't you be able to see it?

Just read Job and remember that God is suppose to be omniscient. Then answer me what this conversation is all about :

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

I do not see God being portrayed as a Buffoon. I do see God manipulating Satan to do His will. I do see Satan portrayed as a pawn in God's plan. I see that Job has caught God's attention and now God wants to work with Job, so He is focusing Satan on Job to do His bidding. If you wanted to call God a "puppet master" i would find that about the worst of what I would think to be reasonable observations. If you want to say that Satan is a "tool" and that God is a master craftsman, that I would find a much more acceptably worded observation.

But no, I do not see Buffoon. I don't see God portrayed as a clown, or as an ill educated person, or as a fool.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I do not see God being portrayed as a Buffoon. I do see God manipulating Satan to do His will. I do see Satan portrayed as a pawn in God's plan. I see that Job has caught God's attention and now God wants to work with Job, so He is focusing Satan on Job to do His bidding. If you wanted to call God a "puppet master" i would find that about the worst of what I would think to be reasonable observations. If you want to say that Satan is a "tool" and that God is a master craftsman, that I would find a much more acceptably worded observation.

But no, I do not see Buffoon. I don't see God portrayed as a clown, or as an ill educated person, or as a fool.

So you do see that God is pretending with Satan, to not know what he's been up to? And Satan, acting like a buffoon, thinks God hasn't been keeping an omniscient eye on him?

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, in Post #129 (Elvis has left the building) Awareness asked for these references to be provided in a step by step manner. However, I responded that it Post #64 he took God’s name in vain saying “The book [Job] has never been the same since to me. It really makes God, and the devil, buffoons.” I told him I would refuse to respond until he first cleared that up.

Deuteronomy 5:11 says that God will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain. It is time for Awareness to respond to what he said in Post #64

Remember Eddie Murphy's Trading Spaces?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Awareness asked for something that takes us, step by step, from Job to the One New Man. You don't even try. I ask the same question. Not to help out awareness, but because I don't see it either. More of the same.

It has been slightly less than 3 days. During this time I have probably posted something in excess of 3,000 words. I have references LSM life studies because you accused me of spouting Lee's teachings. I have referenced numerous verses from Job, as well as the NT. I have responded to everything asked of me. And this, during Labor Day weekend when my family and I are doing many other things, as well as being involved in service at the church.

This just comes across as whining and pathetic.