Elvis has left the building

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I already have. For free will to be possible, evil must be possible. For God to completely restrict evil would be for him to restrict meaningful free will.

God plainly feels that the dangers of evil are an acceptable risk for having free will.

OK so just God considers it acceptable for an innocent child to suffer.

1. Man is sufficiently intelligent to recognize evil.

Some are, some aren't. All suffer regardless.

2. God is sufficiently powerful to aid man in avoiding evil.

God is sufficiently powerful to prevent evil entirely but chooses not to.

3. God is intelligent and wise enough to judge each person.

OK

4. In the end, God will wipe away every tear from the eyes of his people. Which means no lingering suffering from experiencing evil will remain.

Right. It's a beautiful image. This is the answer of faith without evidence. It is necessitated by the reality of suffering in the observable world. How long has God endured the suffering of senscient beings? How much longer until the wiping away of tears envisioned by John of Patmos?

[Guest2]

[QUOTE=zeek;14186]

Originally Posted by Igzy

OK so just God considers it acceptable for an innocent child to suffer.

1. So are, some aren't. All suffer.

God is suffiiently powerful to prevent evil entirely but chooses not to.
OK
Right. It's a beautiful image. This is the answer of faith without evidence. It is necessitated by the reality of suffering in the observable world. How long has God endured the suffering of senscient beings? How much longer until the wiping away of tears envisioned by John of Patmos?

So every parent is evil or a bad parent. No parent should allow their children to learn themselves. Protect them from everything right?

[Guest2]

Infact, if I the "perfect parent" has allowed my son/daughter to experience an ounce of pain due to their own choices I am no longer a perfect parent.

I could not imagine what kind of monstrosity of a kid would grow to be if it never experience any pain. Probably have some kind of invincibility complex with the "perfect" parent being at their side every living second.

That totally makes sense

Infact even better. If I let my son or daughter experience pain, then I dont love them.

[zeek]

[quote=Leomon;14188]

Originally Posted by zeek

So every parent is evil or a bad parent. No parent should allow their children to learn themselves. Protect them from everything right?

Well see there is already evil in the world. No parent can protect a child from all evil. To prevent a child from realizing his or her potential for self sufficiency would be an evil in itself. So no that's wrong. You protect them from evil when they are too young to avoid it and you teach them n to avoid evil and do good as they grow and mature. That's the best you can do.

The analogy breaks down because we are not omnipotent.

[Guest2]

[QUOTE=zeek;14192]

Originally Posted by Leomon

Well see there is already evil in the world. No parent can protect a child from all evil. To prevent a child from realizing his or her potential for self sufficiency would be an evil in itself. So no that's wrong. You protect them from evil when they are too young to avoid it and you teach them n to avoid evil and do good as they grow and mature. That's the best you can do.

The analogy breaks down because we are not omnipotent.

Being the three omni's doesnt have anything to do about it.

Say there is a perfect parent, who is ominpotent
Creates a child.

The parent decided to give this child choice. So that it would be sentient, a moral being, a person who could think and have their own free will. A child in his image. Beautiful.

Now the child is growing up nicely, and the child is obedient and is following and learning many of the things the parent teaches.

One day due to their own free will it decides to defy the parent. It being a child it did not know of the consequences. Now this Child has fallen short.

Couple of questions.

Could this have been prevented.
Well if an omniscient god knows everything it should be able to prevent the child from dis-obedience.

True. But by doing that, is God really giving us free will or the illusion of free will. If God wants us to love him and follow him, but then he changes history repeatedly to ensure we do. Is that really love, did we really choose him?

Why doesnt he just create a bunch of machines?

By all means he could but he chooses not too.

I think coupled by the free will argument, subjective evil & suffering and the morally sufficient reason, I think this is a very good logical evidence for the statement God exists evil exists.

However all this time Zeek, you have only stated the following.

God is all three omni's so because evil exists this is contradictory.

You have not shown us why other than your own subjective objections along the lines of.

Its too evil.

Like we talked about before and especially from Awareness side where he lost a son. Words escape me as to why this happened. Logic cannot provide you with emotional answers or encouragement. Logic cannot give you a hand when your down or give you joy and peace. This is where God comes in if we let him. Dont get hung up on the evils of this world. The bible is full of atrocities and evil and Christianity isnt a stranger to pain and suffering. Christianity welcomes pain and suffering with open arms. Talk to those Christians who have lost and suffered alot but remained strong believers. The answers of logic will not satisfy you I guarantee it. Whats funny is that Jesus came for sinners, and Christianity is MORE well received by those who DO suffer.

The last thing a widow or a rape victim would want to hear is that god has a morally sufficient reason for permitting evil. They would want to know that God loves them and has an answer and a resolution to their suffering. All wrongs will be right and you will be made anew. A new Heaven and Earth free full of Gods life. Eternal Joy and Peace, that is what we have to hope for. Once we see this and once we truly understand the message of the gospels we will be able to look at evil with a new pair of eyes.

And only then will these logical arguments further reinforce our knowledge of God. Why? Because its consistent and everything ties in together.

We could go along all day, but by faith alone we are saved. If those who have intellectual or historical objections those can be provided as well. Christianity isnt some magical genius of a fairy tale. The earliest known manuscripts go back to 1000 BC. Preserved works and manuscripts far outnumber any other historical work available. And whats amazing is the lack of inconsistencies.

We could go into topics of historical accuracy, manuscript analysis, analysis of Jesus, geographical timeline issues, carbon dating, creation vs evolution, monotheism vs polytheism, Judaism vs Christianity, dinosaurs, the list goes on.

But I tell you now even if all of them were answered there would be many that would be defiant. What we have to realize is that nothing in this world is 100% nothing will add up 100%. Take a leap of faith, if you have logical emotional doubts let it be. Come to Christianity and experience it. And I pray that you will find all your answers when you couple it with your obedience, faith and love.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by zeek

OK so just God considers it acceptable for an innocent child to suffer.

Temporal suffering cannot compare to eternal bliss.

What you are saying is like saying that no one should be allowed to drive cars because someone might get hurt. Or kids shouldn't be allowed to play with marbles because someone might catch one in the eye. Or people shouldn't be allowed to get out of bed because they might fall down.

What kind of world do you want? One where everyone walks around in padded suits and eats predigested mush with rubber spoons so that they don't accidentally bite their lips? There is a way to totally eliminate suffering immediately, but you wouldn't like the result because you'd find that you'd become a robot.

A world without potential for mistakes is a world without potential for lessons. Without having the choice to reject God we cannot experience the joy of choosing him.

Some are, some aren't. All suffer regardless.

None need suffer eternally.

Right. It's a beautiful image. This is the answer of faith without evidence. It is necessitated by the reality of suffering in the observable world. How long has God endured the suffering of senscient beings? How much longer until the wiping away of tears envisioned by John of Patmos?

Why don't you ask him? Peter said that God is giving people time to repent. The LRC believed he was waiting for the church to be built. The bottom line is he is waiting for us, we're not waiting for him.

[Cal]

I recently watched an old Twilight Zone episode. It was about this small time hoodlum who died and went to the afterlife. He found himself in a place where all his tastes were satisfied. He had plenty of food and alcohol, beautiful women, banks to rob, and his own casino to gamble in all day long. Attending to his every whim was his own personal valet (played marvelously by Sebastian Cabot).

At first he was thrilled. But as time went on he became frustrated. What was the point of gambling if he couldn't lose? Or of robbing banks if he couldn't get caught? What was the point of being with a beautiful woman when it was obvious she was programmed to say and do whatever he wanted? In short, what was the point of success if there was no potential for failure?

All along he had wondered how he rated getting into heaven. Now he told the valet, "I don't belong in heaven. I want to go to the other place!" To which the valet replied, "Heaven?! What ever gave you the idea you were in heaven? This is the other place!"

Bwahahahahaha!

Without the possibility of making a bad choices, there is really no choice at all. Choosing is what gives life meaning.