Elvis has left the building

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yet the nature of humankind has not been changed....take a look around the world, we are as uncivilized as we've ever been ... if not more cuz we have WMDs.

I have taken a look around the world. I went to school in Europe as well as the US, I went to college in Texas and visited Mexico frequently, I have lived in the Far East for about 8 years. I have come to the conclusion that the best form of Govt on this planet is the US, and we are painfully aware of what a sad commentary that is on human govt. In fact, the only person in human history I would want running the govt is the Lord Jesus. Apart from Him all other great men seem inadequate in one way or another.

I have also seen the depravity of man. I worked as a stock broker for years, where dollars made could usually be equated with lies told. As a HS teacher I see a lot of the unvarnished depravity of man before people mature enough to become more deceitfully wicked. I have come to the conclusion that without Christ and the church the world would be hell on earth. And I fully understand that most in the meetings are not "transformed" saints.

I do see the technological marvels and wonders of this age. I am very impressed with how ever increasing efficiency and productivity has kept pace with exponential population growth so that we can continue to feed the world. It is really a miracle that could never have been accomplished with technology from 50 years ago. Just as our technology to feed and heal people has grown miraculously, so has our ability to track them, hunt them, and kill them. From an amoral viewpoint this also is truly amazing.

Once again, this view has impressed me even more with how much we need Jesus as Lord.

[zeek]

Discussion of the depravity of humanity brings to mind the following questions for your consideration:

"If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to

Then he is not omnipotent.

If he is able, but not willing
Then he is malevolent.

If he is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If he is neither able nor willing
Then why call him God?"

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by zeek

Discussion of the depravity of humanity brings to mind the following questions for your consideration:

"If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to

Then he is not omnipotent.

If he is able, but not willing
Then he is malevolent.

If he is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If he is neither able nor willing
Then why call him God?"

God has permitted evil because he has a morally sufficient reason to do so. The existence of evil does not put into question the 3 omni's of God.

Once we state that God has a morally sufficent reason to permit evil, the premise that God does not exist because evil exists is no longer a objective argument but has turned into a subjective premise based on ones perception of the world.

Hence now we have Awareness's dilemma. He has not seen a change in human nature based on his subset of experiences. God is not needed because he has not seen any change in any Christians that claim to be saved by God.

This is tough because this is beyond a intellectual objection that can be proved or dis proved but an emotional one. One can only hope that God will provide him with a witness to show that God does infact change us and fill us with the holy spirit till our cup overflows. I personally have been changed due to the holy spirit and know that I would have been a much different person without God in my life. But regardless all we can do is plant the seed and let God do the rest.

[zeek]

God has permitted evil because he has a morally sufficient reason to do so.

What is the morally sufficient reason for permitting evil?

The existence of evil does not put into question the 3 omni's of God.

If there were a morally sufficient reason, that might be the case.

Once we state that God has a morally sufficent reason to permit evil, the premise that God does not exist because evil exists is no longer a objective argument but has turned into a subjective premise based on ones perception of the world.

No. All you have done is baldly assert that there is a morally sufficient reason for evil. You have not supported your premise with any argument to justify accepting it.

Hence now we have Awareness's dilemma. He has not seen a change in human nature based on his subset of experiences. God is not needed because he has not seen any change in any Christians that claim to be saved by God.

This is tough because this is beyond a intellectual objection that can be proved or dis proved but an emotional one. One can only hope that God will provide him with a witness to show that God does infact change us and fill us with the holy spirit till our cup overflows. I personally have been changed due to the holy spirit and know that I would have been a much different person without God in my life. But regardless all we can do is plant the seed and let God do the rest.

Now that's subjective. Maybe Harold is looking for an observable, quantifiable change in humanity rather than one that is based on faith alone. Jesus and Paul apparently thought the Kingdom of God would be fully manifest in their lifetime. Instead what we have is a kingdom that is evident only to faith. Perhaps Harold's dissappointment lies in that fact.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by zeek

What is the morally sufficient reason for permitting evil?
If there were a morally sufficient reason, that might be the case.
No. All you have done is baldly assert that there is a morally sufficient reason for evil. You have not supported your premise with any argument to justify accepting it.
Now that's subjective. Maybe Harold is looking for an observable, quantifiable change in humanity rather than one that is based on faith alone. Jesus and Paul apparently thought the Kingdom of God would be fully manifest in their lifetime. Instead what we have is a kingdom that is evident only to faith. Perhaps Harold's dissappointment lies in that fact.

How do you guys quote like that?

So elaborating,

Premise, God cannot exist because evil exists.

I insert, unless God has a morally sufficient reason to do so. As long as this is plausible then the premise is incorrect.

Ex. I meet Zeek for the first time and he says he drove his Jeep here in the rain. I look at the parking lot and I do not see a jeep. Therefore since the Jeep is not in the parking lot then Zeek did not drive here. I assert this and Zeek told me he likes to walking in the rain and therefore parked really far away and walked here. Premise no longer stands. Notice it does not have to be probable, just plausible that he likes to walk and it defeats the premise. Now the premise must change to.
" I do not think it is plausible for you to like walking long distances in the rain when you have a car" - Note this is a very different argument then the first.

Now the question is why does God permit evil. You can go about this argument in many aspects. I hope I can convey some of it as books and books have been written on this subject.

1. Free will argument. Due to the fact the humans have choice, and we originally chose to dis-obey God, sin and evil entered. God did not create mindless drones. He wants us to love and choose him.

Rebuttal - This isnt a game, there is so much evil, why cant he get rid of some or limit some.

In another reality I could fashion my hand into a sword. Or in another reality a paper cut was the worst thing that can happen to you.

2. When a first born is born into the world. The parents do everything for their kid. As he grows up he chooses to learn how to hold a cup, tie his own shoe laces, cross a street by himself, go to school, pick a university, a wife have kids himself. Part of parenting is knowing how to let go but doing your best to supply your kids with knowledge of right and wrong and good decision making skills. Their is NO guarantee however that perfect parents will yield perfect children. It is ultimately the child's choice to choose his ways no matter the influence. Sure the parents could put their kids in a padded white room, isolate all contact from other humans and subject him to no fear no evil no life. But of course we all know that wouldnt be humane. If God wanted mindless worship or beings that do as their told every time and all the time it wouldnt be us.

3. The truth is and according to the bible, God loves all of us. His heart breaks when we sin and are separated from him. The fact is that God is good and holy. He cannot and does not accept sin or evil so unfortunately their is Gods wrath. Evil is not from God but in his absence hence no contradiction.

4. The bible talks alot about suffering. It does not ignore it. Anyways im at work so I'll elaborate on it next time but we can obtain joy and peace through suffering. "Take Joy my brothers when you face trials of many kinds. For the testing of your faith develops perseverance" Christianity has the best (in my opinion) world view on suffering.

Anyways I hope I didnt mess that explanation up too bad and made some sense in it.

I luv this stuff and apologetics. I recommend looking up some atheist and theist debates as it is very useful knowledge. Not required for faith as we are saved by faith alone but never the less interesting.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Leomon

3. The truth is and according to the bible, God loves all of us. His heart breaks when we sin and are separated from him. The fact is that God is good and holy. He cannot and does not accept sin or evil so unfortunately their is Gods wrath. Evil is not from God but in his absence hence no contradiction.

Your answers seem to be too contrived to be believed.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Leomon

How do you guys quote like that?

To create quotes :

Start with the word "quote" (not with the scare quotes - "") with square brackets before and after- like this = [quote] - . At the end of the quoted material put, the word "quote" again with square brackets, but with also a / before the q. - like this = [/.quote] = without the dot. You can even do "quote=anyname" [quote=anyname] with square brackets and it will put the name of the poster of the desired quoted material. It's easy once you do it one or twice. Try it, experiment, click "preview" to see if it worked. If not, try again. You'll see how it works and get it...

[quote] at the start, and to close the quoted material its [/..quote] without the two dots ..

[ZNPaaneah]

[QUOTE=awareness;14079]To create quotes :

Start with the word "quote" (not with the scare quotes - "") with square brackets before and after- like this = [quote] - . At the end of the quoted material put, the word "quote" again with square brackets, but with also a / before the q. - like this = [/.quote] = without the dot. You can even do "quote=anyname"

Originally Posted by anyname

with square brackets and it will put the name of the poster of the desired quoted material. It's easy once you do it one or twice.

Here are some easier instructions. Hit the quote button down below, you sill see that it says {QUOTE=znpaaneah;14080} blah blah blah {/QUOTE}

I switched the brackets to the Alfred Hitchcock so that you could see what I am talking about.

All you need to do is cut and paste the first line in front of the quote and end the quote by cutting and pasting the last line.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Discussion of the depravity of humanity brings to mind the following questions for your consideration:

"If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to

Then he is not omnipotent.

If he is able, but not willing
Then he is malevolent.

If he is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If he is neither able nor willing
Then why call him God?"

Fine. God is willing to prevent evil, He is able to, and His plan is being carried out before your eyes. The Earth is 4.6 billion years old, but only a fraction of the age of the universe which is estimated around 13 billion years. According to the NT plan it will take approximately 10,000 years for the entire plan on dealing with Evil to be carried out. That is less than one millionth of the age of the universe.

Let's put that into a time frame we can understand. I worked on the Irving meeting hall from the very beginning until the Peter Training when it held 2,000 saints. That took 18 months, and most of those days were 16 hour days. But lets assume we were working for 24 hours a day, because for quite a bit of the project there was a night crew.

Therefore, if some "project" took slightly less than 38 seconds it would be analagous to the amount of time God is spending on dealing with evil.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Fine. God is willing to prevent evil, He is able to, and His plan is being carried out before your eyes. The Earth is 4.6 billion years old, but only a fraction of the age of the universe which is estimated around 13 billion years. According to the NT plan it will take approximately 10,000 years for the entire plan on dealing with Evil to be carried out. That is less than one millionth of the age of the universe.

Let's put that into a time frame we can understand. I worked on the Irving meeting hall from the very beginning until the Peter Training when it held 2,000 saints. That took 18 months, and most of those days were 16 hour days. But lets assume we were working for 24 hours a day, because for quite a bit of the project there was a night crew.

Therefore, if some "project" took slightly less than 38 seconds it would be analagous to the amount of time God is spending on dealing with evil.

If God is willing to prevent evil, why did God allow it in the first place? Why wouldn’t an all good God create an all good world?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

If God is willing to prevent evil, why did God allow it in the first place? Why wouldn’t an all good God create an all good world?

Your questions reminds me of the book of Job.

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?

Where were you when God laid the foundation of the Earth? Oh yeah, right, you were no where. Yet you darken counsel by words without knowledge. You don't know how to lay the foundation of the Earth, much less the foundation of a man.

God is building a man. To do that he needs to lay the foundation.

If you have ever been to Irving and seen the meeting hall, know this, all that concrete was poured onto cardboard boxes. Yes, the first floor of the Irving meeting hall sits on cardboard boxes which have long since decayed. Why would someone who wants a building that will be strong and last long build on cardboard? Can you tell me?

Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

So, come on, you want to talk about what a bad job God did in His creation, surely you can answer a simple little question like that.

Job 40:6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

Surely you are aware that man was made in the image and likeness of God. Seeing that this is so, do you have an arm like God? Do you have a voice like God? If not, why not?! You are a poor excuse for a man.

Job 40:10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
40:11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
40:12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
40:13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

You condemn God for not dealing with sin, yet you were made in the image and likeness of God. You should tread down the wicked in their place. Since you don't, you are a poor excuse for a man. Jesus did this. Jesus has an arm like God, He has a voice like God, he tread the wicked down in their place and God confessed that Jesus is the savior of all mankind. Jesus is our prototype. That is why the NT talks about a "New" creation. This is a man made in the image of God, with His life and nature, and that can exercise dominion over the earth.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Your questions reminds me of the book of Job.

The book of Job is a literary device, attempting to answer why bad things happen to good people. The book of Job is actually comedy. Don't get me started. I'm trying to give bro Ohio a break. Cuz I love him.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

The book of Job is actually comedy.

And that comment is tragedy.