Apostles

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

The gift of apostles is listed with prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. Unless you want to say that there haven’t been anymore of any of these gifts since the days of the Apostle John I see nothing from these verses to suggest that the gift of Apostles is any different from the other gifts.

And I see nothing from these verses that requires all of these gifts in perpetuity. You have an "all or nothing" requirement here which I don't see.

And if your requirement is "Until we all come to the fulness etc" then our required apostle can be the ones who wrote the Bible.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

And I see nothing from these verses that requires all of these gifts in perpetuity. You have an "all or nothing" requirement here which I don't see.

And if your requirement is "Until we all come to the fulness etc" then our required apostle can be the ones who wrote the Bible.

No I my requirement is that I want the NT to state that there are no more apostles before I teach that.

The NT teaches that there were apostles.

The NT teaches that the Resurrected and Ascended Christ gave gifts to men, one of which was apostles, to help them grow into maturity (which I understand to be the end of the Church age).

The NT teaches that it is a good work to examine if someone is an apostle or if they are a liar.

The NT teaches that we will have to continue this work of discerning between those truly sent by God (the two witnesses) versus the frauds (antichrist and false prophet) right up until the Lord's return.

So I see 4 teachings in the NT that are very relevant to whether we have this gift today or not, what I don't see is a teaching that says this gift ended when the NT was canonized.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

ZNP: The NT teaches that the Resurrected and Ascended Christ gave gifts to men, one of which was apostles (me: yes, he gave Paul and Peter and John and James) to help them grow into maturity

The NT teaches that it is a good work to examine if someone is an apostle (me: John and Paul and James and Peter were apostles; some others I skeptical of) or if they are a liar.

The NT teaches that we will have to continue this work of discerning between those truly sent by God (the two witnesses) versus the frauds (antichrist and false prophet) right up until the Lord's return.

So I see 4 teachings in the NT that are very relevant to whether we have this gift today or not, what I don't see is a teaching that says this gift ended when the NT was canonized.

You and I see different things. I don't see a teaching where this gift (apostles) was either stated or inferred as to be in perpetuity.

I would also be interested in what Nee thought about apostles in the "Normal Chrstian Church Life"... were they a requirement for perpetuity, or a one-time thing?

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

I would also be interested in what Nee thought about apostles in the "Normal Chrstian Church Life"... were they a requirement for perpetuity of the Church Age, or a one-time thing?

And if so, who were Nee's apostles through the ages? And if he didn't delineate his apostles, then how could they be important?

I don't see how you can say "Apostles are important for the Body of Christ" and then when I say 'well who was the apostle(s) of the church in 1850 or 1950' and you shrug or dismiss the question.

A: The U.S. always needs Presidents for the functioning of the Government.

Q: Okay, then, who was President in 1850, or 1796? Who was the President in 1908, or 1918?

A: Buddy, I got all your Presidents for you. Give me a date, I can give you a President.

Ohio and ZNP and I guess Nee and Lee are moving along these lines. Apostles are needed at all times for the functioning of the Body.

Okay... and....

The RCC at least tries to answer this question. I give them credit. The Protestants really don't have a leg to stand on.