Apostles

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The gift of apostles is listed with prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. Unless you want to say that there haven’t been anymore of any of these gifts since the days of the Apostle John I see nothing from these verses to suggest that the gift of Apostles is any different from the other gifts..

I see human logic at work here... You say that if there are not apostles today then there cannot be any gifts given. Why? Why can't there be some gifts given today? Doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition until the Lord returns.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The gifts listed in verse 11 are given for the perfecting of the saints. Unless you want to say that the saints were perfected back in the time of the Apostle John why would you think the Body is no longer in need of Apostles?

Again you are imposing circumstances upon ours. If something happened once, it must be a necessity for all time. I don't see it.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don’t see the slightest indication from these verses that the gift of the Apostles only refers to those that saw Jesus or who wrote scripture.

And I don't see the slightest indication from these verses that apostles are required in perpetuity for the body to function.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why would you need to test and examine those that say they are apostles in order to find them liars if the NT taught that the Apostles only referred to those that wrote scripture or that saw Jesus? It seems to me that this wasn’t simply a matter of filling out a checklist, but was a difficult and arduous process and the Lord is commending the saints for doing this..

When John wrote about testing those who say they are apostles, there were multiple claims among the fellowship (not only Paul and John and Peter, but ambitious Johnny-come-latelys) for this title. Just as Paul and John and Peter have departed, so have those claims receded to the "fringes" of christianity. Just because there may be some today claiming to be apostles doesn't mean that there must therefore be true apostles among us.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Also, we know at the end of the age the Lord will send the 2 witnesses. Likewise we know that there will be an antichrist and a false prophet. It seems to me that discerning between a forgery and the real thing will be a very valuable skill that all Christians need to know

Unless I see some compelling reason to find apostles among us I am wary;
from my contacts in christianity I think many are similarly wary.

Go back to Igzy's question. Just suppose the verse "God gave some to be apostles" describes not just Paul's time but is actually a requirement for all times. Suppose "You tried some who claimed to be apostles and were not" in the first century means that therefore we in the 21st century need to try and approve some who claim to be apostles and in fact are.

How do we go about such a task? I don't see anybody making much headway except the fringe sects with their exalted leaders. And I put the RCC there, too. I don't see the Pope as some "bishop-approved" apostle.

On the other hand, have you ever heard of the "Throne of James"? Have you ever heard of the "desposyni"? The speed in which the believers elevate some beyond their allotted portion is rather disconcerting, and echoes (for me) the original fall, of the original "Light bearer" (Lucifer) who presumed a place not his.

See also Jude 1:6: "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."

I think it is a fearful thing to presume a place not expressly given by God. How are we collectively to determine whether or not Joyce Myers or Benny Hinn or Joel Osteen or pastor Chuck Smith or whomever is actually an apostle?

To me, the parable in Luke 14 seems equally Biblical, and timely, as Ephesians 4:11. When the Master gives a feast, take the last seat. Don't sit somewhere you don't belong. If anyone out there wants to sit in the seat marked "Apostle", go for it. I see no compelling reason we the christian polity should prop any of them up.