Elvis has left the building

[Guest2]

Hi Awareness,

I do think its awful you experienced such hardship and treatment from other "Christians".

But please be careful, do not interpret a subjective sampled experience to define a objective statement.

Because I see a doctor selling drugs does not mean that all doctors sell drugs. Just because people have done "Horrendous" things under the name of religion does not mean all religion is bad.

I am not aware of your religious beliefs Awareness but I assure you that the world view that Christians have on suffering, pain and love is by far the best answer. I can elaborate on that If you wish.

[awareness]

So would all the forgers of Christian books attributed to apostolic leaders in the first and second centuries say. But they would be liars.

And you can elaborate all you want -- please do -- but that doesn't mean I'm gonna trust someone just because they claim to be Christian.

[Ohio]

But how quickly you trust any and all those who file complaints against Christians and the Bible, never bothering to verify any of the facts.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But how quickly you trust any and all those who file complaints against Christians and the Bible, never bothering to verify any of the facts.

Yer clairvoyance of me falls short brother Ohio...

[Guest2]

Hey Awareness,

No one asked you to trust a christian,

I dont trust all of my christian friends as much as I would like,

Were ALL human and we ALL make mistakes.

But sorry I didnt really catch your premise or objection.

Was it that Christianity or "Religion" did not contribute to the moral and philosophical development of the human race? That human beings would behave the same with or without religion?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Leomon

Hey Awareness,

No one asked you to trust a christian,

I dont trust all of my christian friends as much as I would like,

Were ALL human and we ALL make mistakes.

But sorry I didnt really catch your premise or objection.

Was it that Christianity or "Religion" did not contribute to the moral and philosophical development of the human race? That human beings would behave the same with or without religion?

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Religion has not only failed to change human nature. Religion has actually been used to commit atrocities against other humans. So any good it has done is a wash at best ....

Jesus came and went and human nature didn't change ... sorry to pop yer bubble ... if you had/have one.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Religion has not only failed to change human nature. Religion has actually been used to commit atrocities against other humans. So any good it has done is a wash at best ....

Jesus came and went and human nature didn't change ... sorry to pop yer bubble ... if you had/have one.

They just need to eat more of Jesus.

Seriously, are you saying that Jesus came and went and Peter's human nature wasn't changed? Because, if I read the NT correctly Paul was a changed man and Peter was a changed man, and probably a few others were changed as well.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by awareness

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Religion has not only failed to change human nature. Religion has actually been used to commit atrocities against other humans. So any good it has done is a wash at best ....

Jesus came and went and human nature didn't change ... sorry to pop yer bubble ... if you had/have one.

Using the same method of thinking I would say governments have done society NO good and has been used to commit atrocities among human beings.

We should have no governments because Communism, Capitalism, World Wars, have all been induced by tyrannical rule. Hitlers and his regime killed millions and millions of people so we should have no governments.

If I were Jewish and were persecuted by the Hitlers regime I would hate democracy because it also is another form of government. My experience with governments is that they do nothing but restrict your freedoms and persecute you.

I can apply that to method of thinking to anything.

Do not let YOUR experience define what is objectively true or not.

If you an atheist, do not let opinion get in the way of researching what is really true. Christopher Hitchens feels about religion exactly the same way if not more than you. Christopher hates religion because he believes it poisons everything. He actively debates well known theologians in attempt to set free the "shackles" that religious organizations have against people.

Why does he hate religion? He looks at the crusades, catholic molestation cases and the list can go on and on.

But he is forgetting one thing, the existence of God is not defined by people and is independent of religious actions. Just because a doctor kills doesnt mean medicine is murderous. When Bill Clinton committed adultery it doesn't mean that all Presidents are sex maniacs.

You cannot look at a subset of experiences and occurrences and apply it to the entire entity. You cannot win or lose this argument ever because it is circular. There will always be great examples of Christianity and horrible examples of Christianity. There will always be great examples of working governments and horribly corrupt ones. It does not mean that it does not work.

Look at the problem logically and without opinionated biases and only then will you start to see why Christianity has a world view that works.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Religion has not only failed to change human nature. Religion has actually been used to commit atrocities against other humans. So any good it has done is a wash at best ....

Jesus came and went and human nature didn't change ... sorry to pop yer bubble ... if you had/have one.

Once again, I am going to challenge this thinly disguised condemnation of the coming of Jesus Christ. awareness pulls out distorted comments from Genesis, coupled with the depravity of man, to prove that the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ has done nothing good for man.

God has wasted His time, Jesus Christ is an abject failure, the Spirit of God has nothing good to show us, and those pathetic Christians can't be trusted with the time of day -- these the continual assertions that awareness thrusts upon the forum. Let's be honest folks, the issues which awareness has are far deeper than his dozen or so abysmal years with WL and the LC's.

Has no life ever been changed by Jesus Christ? Has the love of God never affected mankind? Has the Spirit of God failed so miserably that not one soul has gone to the grave different than at birth? awareness would say "no, religion has failed to change human nature."

Methinks awareness speaks only for himself. His generalizations should apply to himself only. There is a bubble that needs to be popped -- and that's the bubble that awareness lives in.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

So would all the forgers of Christian books attributed to apostolic leaders in the first and second centuries say. But they would be liars.

And you can elaborate all you want -- please do -- but that doesn't mean I'm gonna trust someone just because they claim to be Christian.

How about Reagan's answer "trust but verify"