Elvis has left the building

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by awareness

No need for apology, your rambling posits some good points.

I might point out, however, that the Golden Rule needs no god. It makes since if I'm honest with myself. That which I don't like done to me, I shouldn't do to others. That which I like done to me, I should do to others. It operates out of honesty with myself. No god needed.

Do you mind if I disagree with you and explain why and/or ask some questions?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Leomon

Do you mind if I disagree with you and explain why and/or ask some questions?

Not at all....go fer it...

[OBW]

I fear that Ezekiel 10 is not a good reference. This was the removal of God from the Temple because the people were not there. Or weren't supposed to be there. They were in exile. God dwelt among the people. They weren't there. The only ones remaining were actually disobedient.

If we are going to use this as a statement about Christianity, then it must be that the Christians have left the churches and so the glory of God would be removed.

But God already dwells among his people. Two or three gathered and He is there. Doesn't say, "two or three that are overcomers" or some other qualifier.

So Ezekiel 10 is not really relevant. I fear that this is just a new reason to run from other Christians and despise them because they are not up to some standard. No one died and left us in charge. Actually, someone died, but he also rose and is still present and in charge.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

I fear that Ezekiel 10 is not a good reference. This was the removal of God from the Temple because the people were not there. Or weren't supposed to be there. They were in exile. God dwelt among the people. They weren't there. The only ones remaining were actually disobedient...

Well I certainly need to re-read Ezekiel 10, and associated commentary, more closely. I admit to a superficial understanding. The imagery was so evocative in my mind I used it.

Originally Posted by OBW

If we are going to use this as a statement about Christianity, then it must be that the Christians have left the churches and so the glory of God would be removed.

So Ezekiel 10 is not really relevant.

Point received, at least for now. Hopefully I can learn something of substance from that portion and either correct or strengthen my story.

Originally Posted by OBW

I fear that this is just a new reason to run from other Christians and despise them because they are not up to some standard.

Yes; my point was not well made. Actually, my point at least aimed at the opposite. When I was fully under the sway of the "New Testament model" of the local christian church promulgated by Nee and his "deputy authority" Lee, I did run from other christians and despise them, because they were not "on the proper ground".

Today, I can and do meet with christians of every stripe (and many have no stripe) on whatever ground they are. I don't look past them to "the church". To me, today, my christian neighbor is the church. We gather in the Name, and the Presence (Gk parousiea) accompanies our mutual exposition/exploration/discussion of the word, and our hearts burn as the scriptures are opened. I joke not -- it is a wonderful experience.

So strike Ezekiel 10 from my initial post; Revelations 2 and 3 reveals (to me) that the bally-hooed New Testament model did not pan out.

I don't know how many times I saw and heard yucky stuff and said, "Well, it's the church". I heard others in the Recovery Churches say the same thing. They put up with "Lording over the sheep", expressly contrary to Peter's admonition, because, well, "it's the church"; it has an organizational structure closely allied with "the New Testament model" explicated by Nee. And thus its authority in our minds and over our bodies.

I/we put up with the whims of leadership being equated with "the Lord's new move"; we had this sinking feeling in our gut but we soldiered on, or tried to, because, "it's the church". We ignored our conciences because "it's the church".

So I/we were hostage because we thought our situation was biblically-derived. But biblical record itself (Rev. 2 & 3) shows 6 of the last 7 churches being told to repent; they were strongly admonished. If this are taken to be as a bellwether for the assemblies inclusive (and this was a prophetic writing which was universal in scope and aim) then our current fixation with replicating the 1st century christian church can be let go.

So just love your christian neighbor (and all your neighbors, of course; but I am focused here on the christian polity) wherever they may be found. Many of them, of course, are active in christian organizations.

A small testimony: I am active in my town, and visit the various assemblies. The pastors receive me because I minister (or try to anyway) to the flock. One of them calls me to the front and asks me to pray. He thinks I have a portion and I am grateful to share. I don't tell anyone to leave anything. I am simply trying to make the point here that this mental model which we build based on the New Testament record, of the "ideal assembly" may actually be a chimera, a stronghold in our mind.

Maybe the "ideal assembly" is where your neighbor loves the Lord and you receive him/her as such, and it is reciprocated. Looking beyond that, as Jesus said, "is of the evil one". Cf Matt 5:37

I like Nee & Lee, and am grateful for many things. It was part of my christian journey. But they and their followers posess no more authority than any other christians. Today I know of LRC christians who don't fellowship with each other because one follows LRC Brother A and the other follows LRC Brother B and Brothers A and B can't agree who has authority. So the "small potato" brother and sisters' fellowship is ruined and their sprititual walk damaged, due to this biblically-based, New Testament-derived stronghold in their minds.

The truth is what sets us free. If we accept an illusion as truth, then it can trample our lives. It is very hard to break mental models. They are indeed strongholds.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

But biblical record itself (Rev. 2 & 3) shows 6 of the last 7 churches being told to repent; they were strongly admonished.

And for good reason! My experience which is also biblical is Blessings come from genuine Repentence.
I found myself reading passages in the last few weeks that led me to do a study on Repentence because I began to see how God always blesses people when they repent! I noticed when people would say to the Lord "me and my father's house have sinned against Thee" or 'I have sinned against Heaven & You and am not worthy to be considered Your son', God always Rejoiced and blessed them! That has been my story too! I know The Spirit convicts us (not to be confused w/condemnation) leading us to repent because that has been my experience. Peace & blessings always follow and I again, I know this is True because this is what always happens to me: Conviction-Repentence-Peace-Thanksgiving-Praise, Blessings. In that order.

A small testimony: I am active in my town, and visit the various assemblies. The pastors receive me because I minister (or try to anyway) to the flock. One of them calls me to the front and asks me to pray. He thinks I have a portion and I am grateful to share.

For all the horrible experiences so many people went through while in the LC, those of us who had positive experiences, took what we learned from there and followed the instructions of God's Word to minister and build up the saints (all believers) encouraging them, that they too would grow strong in the Word and the Power of His Might so that they can do the same towards others and thus continue sharing the Good News of Jesus' Love, giving Hope to the lost !

I don't tell anyone to leave anything. I am simply trying to make the point here that this mental model which we build based on the New Testament record, of the "ideal assembly" may actually be a chimera, a stronghold in our mind.

I like Nee & Lee, and am grateful for many things. It was part of my christian journey.

I never hung on to the words of Nee or Lee like many LCrs did but indirectly I must have as I was a part of the LC ! Nevertheless, like you, I too am grateful for my time there as it has been part of my Christian journey.

But they and their followers posess no more authority than any other christians. Today I know of LRC christians who don't fellowship with each other because one follows LRC Brother A and the other follows LRC Brother B and Brothers A and B can't agree who has authority.

Yep. And this is no different than the denominations or "non-denomination" groups out in Christianland.

The Truth is what sets us free.

Amen & Amen brother Aron. And the Truth has a Name above every name. Jesus is His Name.

If we accept an illusion as truth, then it can trample our lives. It is very hard to break mental models. They are indeed strongholds.

Absolutely Right On !! You've been hitting some home runs today /yesterday Aron ! Are you under some kind of ANOINTING maybe?

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

My experience which is also biblical is Blessings come from genuine Repentence.

I found myself reading passages in the last few weeks that led me to do a study on Repentence because I began to see how God always blesses people when they repent! .....

Peace & blessings always follow and I again, I know this is True because this is what always happens to me: Conviction-Repentence-Peace-Thanksgiving-Praise, Blessings. In that order.

Isaiah ch. 53 said, "We all like sheep have gone astray." Isaiah wasn't talking about goats, or wolves, or pigs. No, even the sheep go astray. Those who think they are beyond error, and are swimming in the sea of pure truth, are in the most trouble.

I am sure many of my mental models of "how things are" and "how things ought to be" are riddled with error, or are at least woefully incomplete. I have to be willing to let go.

Nee had some good things to say. But it is critical to be willing to let go of Nee's ideas. Anything beyond Jesus is a dangerous snare. "I was determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified." (1 Cor. ch. 2)

One thing I learned while in the Recovery Churches was that "repentance" doesn't mean to feel bad, or to regret. It means to change, to have a change in thought, a change in behavior, and a change in direction. I wonder how many of us are willing to change?