Against LSM's Allegorizing

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by RollingStone

I understand they have volumes of his speakings and writings but the Holy Word for Morning Revivals and other books surely seem to be someone elses creations maybe sprinkled with some of what Witness Lee said or wrote.

I'm not sure where you got this impression. I have in front of me right now the newest version of "The Holy Word for Morning Revival" - "Chrystallization-Study of the Psalms Volume One - Witness Lee"
On page v, in the Preface:

"2. The entire content of this book is taken from Crystallization-study Outlines: The Psalms (1), the text and footnotes of the Recovery Version of the Bible, selections from the writings of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee, and Hymns, all of which are published by Living Stream Ministry"

In perusing this booklet it is exactly as described in the statement above. (except for the fact that there is little to nothing directly from the writings of Watchman Nee). Basically the whole thing is just a reprinting of the "Life-Study of the Psalms" (Witness Lee) and "Christ and the Church Revealed and Typified in the Psalms" (Witness Lee). Although this is supposed to be "a limited review of the summer training held July 4-9, 2011, in Anaheim, California" I see nowhere that there is anything actually spoken by the speakers (usually Ed Marks, Andrew Yu, Minoru Chen, Benson Phillips and others).

On an interesting side note - It is my understanding that many, if not most, of the "Hymns" (One Hymn published at the end of each of the six weeks) were CO-WRITTEN by Witness Lee AND John Ingalls, yet Ingalls is not credited anywhere that I can see. Can you imagine if Ingalls published something of the LSM and not credit Witness Lee? The ink wouldn't be dry before Ingalls would be served with a lawsuit.

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I'm not sure where you got this impression. I have in front of me right now the newest version of "The Holy Word for Morning Revival" - "Chrystallization-Study of the Psalms Volume One - Witness Lee"...

Hey dear brother UntoHim,

From everything I have seen over the decades, your analysis is 100% correct. Every once in a blue moon, a "Holy Word for Morning Revival" booklet would hit on a point which Watchman Nee had covered in great detail. In those rare cases, that particular HWFMR book might contain anywhere from 5% to 10% of it's material from WN. On the other hand, some HWFMR books contained 100% Witness Lee, especially when the topic being discussed was particularly "high peaky". I have not done a scientific study of this, but I am sure a long-term analysis over the decades would yield results that HWFMR material has been composed of around 97% Witness Lee material and around 3% Watchman Nee material.

John Ingalls?? Who is he?? He co-wrote hymns with WL?? He worked on the original RcV translation?? Not according to my shiny new LSM books! I only see Lee, Lee, Lee and a very rare reference to "The Editorial Section, Living Stream Ministry".

Here is an interesting historical tid-bit that those who left the LC in the late 1980's and those who are new-comers may not be aware of:

Witness Lee became very ill in the early spring of 1997. WL spoke at the 1997 Chinese New Year Conference and that was the last conference he spoke at. The "Blended Brothers To Be" covered for WL at the Elders' Training in April, 1997. The "Blended Brothers To Be" also covered for WL at the 1997 Memorial Day Conference. WL, of course, died shortly after Memorial Day, 1997.

I do not know about the 1997 April Elders' Training, but for the HWFMR book which covered the 1997 Memorial Day Conference, the actual words spoken by the "Blended Brothers to Be" was used as the text for HWFMR, and not ministry material from WL. The howls of protest from the "Lee-onlyists" were loud and clear!! The "saints" were NOT going to "prophecy" the words of the BB's in the "prophecying" meetings!! Only the words of WL were suitable to be the basis of prophecying!! (With an occasional nod to the actual Scriptures listed for each day in the HWFMR.) From that day forward, HWFMR books have only included ministry material from WL (with the small smattering of material from WN mentioned above).

Interestingly, it was this same "ultra-conservative" wing in the LSM-loyal churches who protested loud and clear to the BB's about Titus Chu. If you listened closely to Dan Towle at Whistler, he clearly mentioned how the BB's in the 1990's originally wanted the BB's to be a rather large and inclusive group. Some in the LC's, however, remembered some of the negative things WL had said privately about TC and they insisted to the BB's that TC not be allowed to speak at the trainings and conferences. The BB's caved in to this pressure.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Interestingly, it was this same "ultra-conservative" wing in the LSM-loyal churches who protested loud and clear to the BB's about Titus Chu. If you listened closely to Dan Towle at Whistler, he clearly mentioned how the BB's in the 1990's originally wanted the BB's to be a rather large and inclusive group. Some in the LC's, however, remembered some of the negative things WL had said privately about TC and they insisted to the BB's that TC not be allowed to speak at the trainings and conferences. The BB's caved in to this pressure.

I find this difficult to believe. IF WL did say some things privately about Titus Chu, it is more plausible the audience was informal. I had never heard Witness Lee say anything negative about Titus Chu. Has anyone on this board? So when I read references to things allegedly spoken by Witness Lee, I refer to Ron Kangas' speaking from 2007, "There is a statement made about Brother Lee; you can’t ask Brother Lee about it." Of course not. Brother Lee isn't among us to affirm or deny what he said about Titus Chu.
Where's the documentation?
Talk about caving into pressure. Where is the pressure? I never heard of any. If the blended brothers was meant to be inclusive, how come some were joyful when Gene Gruhler left Anaheim for Denver?

[kisstheson]

Hello dear brother Terry,

As far as this information is concerned, this comes directly from Dan Towle's speaking at Whistler. Dan Towle definitely said all of this.

In at least one of the letters which Titus Chu wrote to the BB's, he mentioned that Witness Lee had clearly spoken negative things about some of the BB's as well. TC specifically mentioned that WL stated that Ron Kangas was very proud. I have heard from multiple sources that the legalistic college-age work which WL spoke so strongly against in his 1996 book entitled A Word of Love was the college-age work headed up by Minoru Chen at UC Irvine. At the final message to the 1996 Summer Training, WL ripped into a lot of the BB's and exposed what poor shepherds of the "saints" they were. So, I can believe that WL would have said some negative things about TC since he said so many other negative things about his other co-workers. We should always remember how disappointed and disgusted WL was with the condition of the LRC just before he died.

Apparently, some heard this word about TC and would not let it go and they put pressure on the core BB's to not allow TC to speak at the "Seven Feasts" conferences and trainings.

[TLFisher]

Yes, Kisstheson. We have covered at length the disappointment and disgust of brother Lee in the year prior to his death. The soon to be blended brothers at the time said all the right words, but it did not measure into reality. Just words. Back to your post, okay. I have read A Word of Love. Even if Witness Lee spoke a word concerning Titus Chu, other elders and co-workers were not exempt.
Kisstheson, since you did bring up the "seven feasts", I'll conclude with a word from Exodus.

Three times a year you shall celebrate a feast to Me. Exodus 23:14

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

....At the final message to the 1996 Summer Training, WL ripped into a lot of the BB's and exposed what poor shepherds of the "saints" they were. So, I can believe that WL would have said some negative things about TC since he said so many other negative things about his other co-workers. We should always remember how disappointed and disgusted WL was with the condition of the LRC just before he died....

Como un espejo, eh?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Como un espejo, eh?

"Como un espejo, eh?" - "Like a mirror, eh?"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

In at least one of the letters which Titus Chu wrote to the BB's, he mentioned that Witness Lee had clearly spoken negative things about some of the BB's as well. TC specifically mentioned that WL stated that Ron Kangas was very proud. I have heard from multiple sources that the legalistic college-age work which WL spoke so strongly against in his 1996 book entitled A Word of Love was the college-age work headed up by Minoru Chen at UC Irvine. At the final message to the 1996 Summer Training, WL ripped into a lot of the BB's and exposed what poor shepherds of the "saints" they were. So, I can believe that WL would have said some negative things about TC since he said so many other negative things about his other co-workers. We should always remember how disappointed and disgusted WL was with the condition of the LRC just before he died.

Dear brother KisstheSon, occasionally you seem almost sympathetic to WL about how disappointing things had turned out in the Recovery. Perhaps I am wrong here. I too used to take WL's fellowship to heart concerning his frustrations with other brothers.

After reading many others' accounts of events which transpired, I can no longer be sympathetic. WL created a monster of his own doing. WL was abusive to other leaders and totally intolerant to the ideas of other leaders. He forced his followers to become absolutely one with him, absolutely one with his work, and absolutely one with his "office," Phillip Lee, his son. Those who were otherwise minded were expelled, their reputations destroyed, and the rest of the Recovery was properly "educated" about the matter.

And then WL is surprised that the LC's are no different from Laodicea. WL is surprised when the churches are barren? WL is surprised when the campus work under MC, his most ardent lackey, is legalistic? WL is surprised when RK is proud, kind of like his mentor? WL is surprised that TC is so difficult to work with, just like his "spiritual father?" WL is surprised when his closest adherents, personally trained by him for for decades, are such poor shepherds, spending so little of their time actually caring for people?

Is this not hypocrisy? Or perhaps it could be more rightly called insanity -- doing the same things over and over, and expecting different results.

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Dear brother KisstheSon, occasionally you seem almost sympathetic to WL about how disappointing things had turned out in the Recovery. Perhaps I am wrong here. I too used to take WL's fellowship to heart concerning his frustrations with other brothers.

After reading many others' accounts of events which transpired, I can no longer be sympathetic. WL created a monster of his own doing. WL was abusive to other leaders and totally intolerant to the ideas of other leaders. He forced his followers to become absolutely one with him, absolutely one with his work, and absolutely one with his "office," Phillip Lee, his son. Those who were otherwise minded were expelled, their reputations destroyed, and the rest of the Recovery was properly "educated" about the matter.

And then WL is surprised that the LC's are no different from Laodicea. WL is surprised when the churches are barren? WL is surprised when the campus work under MC, his most ardent lackey, is legalistic? WL is surprised when RK is proud, kind of like his mentor? WL is surprised that TC is so difficult to work with, just like his "spiritual father?" WL is surprised when his closest adherents, personally trained by him for for decades, are such poor shepherds, spending so little of their time actually caring for people?

Is this not hypocrisy? Or perhaps it could be more rightly called insanity -- doing the same things over and over, and expecting different results.

Amen, dear brother Ohio. Your points are well spoken and I receive them. It is indeed hypocrisy. The LRC whole thing was, and is, such a huge mass of deviation from anything related to the heart and mind and God.

I don't know what gets into me at times - sometimes I still weep over it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Amen, dear brother Ohio. Your points are well spoken and I receive them. It is indeed hypocrisy. The LRC whole thing was, and is, such a huge mass of deviation from anything related to the heart and mind and God.

I don't know what gets into me at times - sometimes I still weep over it.

Blessed are those who mourn ... they shall be comforted.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

I find this difficult to believe. IF WL did say some things privately about Titus Chu, it is more plausible the audience was informal. I had never heard Witness Lee say anything negative about Titus Chu. Has anyone on this board? So when I read references to things allegedly spoken by Witness Lee, I refer to Ron Kangas' speaking from 2007, "There is a statement made about Brother Lee; you can’t ask Brother Lee about it." Of course not. Brother Lee isn't among us to affirm or deny what he said about Titus Chu.
Where's the documentation?
Talk about caving into pressure. Where is the pressure? I never heard of any. If the blended brothers was meant to be inclusive, how come some were joyful when Gene Gruhler left Anaheim for Denver?

TC battled with some of the Blendeds for decades. None of this was ever made public. GLA leaders always attributed this to religious jealousies and politicking for power. Sometimes WL tried to reconcile differences, and other times he fueled the controversies. No one has ever said that TC is easy to work with, and we also know how much back-biting thrives at LSM.

During one time period, I believe the early 90's, TC was really in the pressure cooker. I don't know the exact details why, but he was inches away from giving up his ministry in Cleveland due to overwhelming pressure from various blendeds. He even discussed his relocation plans. I have also mentioned how TC was abusive at times to other brothers in the GLA. Abuse is just a way of life for LC leaders -- be a lackey or be abused.

This forum has been a real eye opener into the backroom dynamics at LSM. The most valuable info does not come from scoffers who cry the c-word, but those snippets of actual accounts by those who witnessed them. I have concluded that LSM is a cesspool of politics, much the same as we see in our capital.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

TC battled with some of the Blendeds for decades. None of this was ever made public. GLA leaders always attributed this to religious jealousies and politicking for power. Sometimes WL tried to reconcile differences, and other times he fueled the controversies. No one has ever said that TC is easy to work with, and we also know how much back-biting thrives at LSM.

During one time period, I believe the early 90's, TC was really in the pressure cooker. I don't know the exact details why, but he was inches away from giving up his ministry in Cleveland due to overwhelming pressure from various blendeds. He even discussed his relocation plans. I have also mentioned how TC was abusive at times to other brothers in the GLA. Abuse is just a way of life for LC leaders -- be a lackey or be abused.

This forum has been a real eye opener into the backroom dynamics at LSM. The most valuable info does not come from scoffers who cry the c-word, but those snippets of actual accounts by those who witnessed them. I have concluded that LSM is a cesspool of politics, much the same as we see in our capital.

I was privy to a lot of backbiting concerning TC, especially in Taipei. I gave that a nod in my response letter to his excommunication when I pointed out that if WL was aware of all these things concerning TC, as the BBs allege, yet didn't feel to excommunicate him, why are the BBs?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I was privy to a lot of backbiting concerning TC, especially in Taipei. I gave that a nod in my response letter to his excommunication when I pointed out that if WL was aware of all these things concerning TC, as the BBs allege, yet didn't feel to excommunicate him, why are the BBs?

TC was never a threat to WL, only to the Blendeds. WL could abuse TC, privately and publicly, and he just took it. He took it from the Lord. TC, however, had zero tolerance for them blendeds.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

TC battled with some of the Blendeds for decades. None of this was ever made public. GLA leaders always attributed this to religious jealousies and politicking for power. Sometimes WL tried to reconcile differences, and other times he fueled the controversies. No one has ever said that TC is easy to work with, and we also know how much back-biting thrives at LSM.

So when Kisstheson brought out what Dan Towle spoke at whistler; that being the blended brothers being meant to be a broad an inclusive group, I consider Dan may have been speaking for himself and I also consider it may have been a placating word. To give a view of inclusiveness. I reiterate, what about Gene Gruhler? Well Ohio, I think there was inclusiveness, but only towards those and for those who can be counted upon. Maybe like Gene, Titus could not be counted upon.

[zeek]

On previous post I meant to say: As an alternative to the literal-factual method of interpretation that Tomes seems to be advocating, why not consider an historical-metaphorical reading ...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

So when Kisstheson brought out what Dan Towle spoke at whistler; that being the blended brothers being meant to be a broad an inclusive group, I consider Dan may have been speaking for himself and I also consider it may have been a placating word. To give a view of inclusiveness. I reiterate, what about Gene Gruhler? Well Ohio, I think there was inclusiveness, but only towards those and for those who can be counted upon. Maybe like Gene, Titus could not be counted upon.

Counted on to do what? TC is a minister and LSM is supposedly a publishing house. What should a publishing house count on a minister to do?

[RollingStone]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I'm not sure where you got this impression. I have in front of me right now the newest version of "The Holy Word for Morning Revival" - "Chrystallization-Study of the Psalms Volume One - Witness Lee"...

My apologies, I do not have a current copy or any recent ones,, I was giving WL some benefit of the doubt since he has passed. The last several times I attended a LSM type meetings I left with tears in my eyes. The last conference I attended was in Washington DC about 4 yrs ago and I wept for hrs deeply afterwards. I heard a lot of ambition and a lot of telling people what they had to do to be in the next move of God. "since they had everything" "the ministry of the age" "They need nothing cause they had everything" I remeber sitting there thinking I was in Laodicia. Just as the Recovery version footnotes descibed Laodicia I experienced it first hand. There were threats made about those who were publishing other things. They told us that they needed a lot of the saints to migrate to different parts of the world. To me it sounded like they just needed to have the saints go all over to get people to use and purchase LSM books and materials. It wasn't about sharing Christ It was about doing a work to bring Christ back and that those following LSM were the ones that were going to do it. I still want to believe that WL works are being twisted or taken out of context somehow to promote the views and concepts of the BB and to take those following them down a different path. Am I wrong about this too? Ned

With love in my heart

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by RollingStone

My apologies, I do not have a current copy or any recent ones,, I was giving WL some benefit of the doubt since he has passed. The last several times I attended a LSM type meetings I left with tears in my eyes. The last conference I attended was in Washington DC about 4 yrs ago and I wept for hrs deeply afterwards. I heard a lot of ambition and a lot of telling people what they had to do to be in the next move of God. "since they had everything" "the ministry of the age" "They need nothing cause they had everything" I remeber sitting there thinking I was in Laodicia. Just as the Recovery version footnotes descibed Laodicia I experienced it first hand. There were threats made about those who were publishing other things. They told us that they needed a lot of the saints to migrate to different parts of the world. To me it sounded like they just needed to have the saints go all over to get people to use and purchase LSM books and materials. It wasn't about sharing Christ It was about doing a work to bring Christ back and that those following LSM were the ones that were going to do it. I still want to believe that WL works are being twisted or taken out of context somehow to promote the views and concepts of the BB and to take those following them down a different path. Am I wrong about this too? Ned

With love in my heart

Hello dear RollingStone,

I feel for you and I understand your tears and your weeping. I have experienced those same tears and that same weeping for LSM and the LC. I wish I could say that Witness Lee left behind a legacy that was without reproach and that it is only the Blending Brothers who have deviated from that legacy. Alas, such is not the case, dear one.

If you go one step further back from WL in the history of the Local Church movement, you will come to Watchman Nee. While all of us here agree that WN made some serious errors in his teachings, especially in the areas of "The Work" and "Deputy Authority", WN's standard for Christians and for churches was a very high standard and WN at least lived what he preached. A prime example of this is WN's book The Normal Christian Church Life. If we skip over the chapter which talks so much about "The Work", we can see a really beautiful standard set forth in this book regarding matters such as churches being open to all Christian ministries, no one group of workers exercising world-wide control over churches, elders being raised up only from local men, brothers and sisters being open to fellowship with all other Christians, etc.

Compared to this standard, and compared to the way WN did not allow the brothers and sisters to speak much about him, we can see that things definitely got seven times worse under Witness Lee than they were under Watchman Nee. WL compromised and violated many of WN's high standards. Even worse, the BB's have made things seven times worse then they were under WL. In some key areas where WL showed restraint, the BB's have cast off that restraint. This has resulted in the sad Laodicean situation which you experienced first-hand. You now have brothers motivated by a terrible spirit of religious jealousy for WL trying to spread their mis-guided devotion to WL to others.

I weep with you, dear one. May the BB's forsake the terrible spirit of religious jealousy which motivates them and allow the Spirit of God to lead them into a deep experience of repentance. May this experience of deep repentance pervade the LSM-loyal churches all over the globe.

May God have mercy on us all, dear RollingStone.