Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

The FTT is a mixture but the chief point is that it has produced Christ in many of the trainees and in the church life. RK is a mixture but has produced Christ; WL was a mixture but produced Christ; the LC is a mixture but has something of Christ; I am a mixture but there is something of Christ in me. And, there is also something of Christ in each of us on the forum. Categoric condemnations of Nee, Lee, the LC, RK, etc. are mixed with untruth.

From Deviating from the Path in the Lord’s Recovery

Was the full-time training a mistake? It has been outwardly successful and very helpful to the churches. But has the FTT become another center, something Watchman Nee warned elders and co-workers about? The FTT was a center and promoted a center – a special leader and his ministry. The FTT also produced trained ones to go back to their localities to promote the center, a man and his ministry.

Steve, I hear what you are saying about the FTT, but, since I came from Ohio, I have a different perspective. Perhaps I have become cynical in my old age, (but I'm still younger than you) but for some time I have listened to LSM promotions the same way I listen to politicians. Forget about what they say, and pay attention to what they do. Look at their record. What have they done? Talk is cheap. Let's talk about actual accomplishments.

We saw many young people damaged by LSM. Their faith was shattered. Nearly none received solid spiritual help. Many returned and just could not fit into the local church life, so the local church life was blamed. This church was blamed and that church was blamed, but who placed the blame where it belonged?!? Many of the young people became fertile soil for LSM program managers to sow suspicions about TC, their elders, and the region as a whole. Many young people and full-timers never returned home, convinced that greener grass lies elsewhere.

Your quotes from WN are significant. With WL and his ministry as the "center," it's no wonder that the FTTx was spoiled. What value has any Christian training that does not place Christ and His word as the center? Without the living Christ, who or what places limits on the sectarian attitudes promoted by LSM trainers? What will stop the backbiting? What will limit the trainers from "playing god" with the lives of young ones? What happens when their program conflicts with the conscience of the trainees?

All these questions are not hypothetical. They have really happened. I witnessed some of them. I heard stories about others. Oh sure, LSM has their attractive, spiritual-sounding rhetoric to entice the young, but should we not look at the fruit? Let's do some research. Why won't LSM let us examine the statistics on all their trainees? How many are still positive? Home many even still love the Lord? How many are still active in the churches?

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Steve, I hear what you are saying about the FTT, but, since I came from Ohio, I have a different perspective. Perhaps I have become cynical in my old age, (but I'm still younger than you) but for some time I have listened to LSM promotions the same way I listen to politicians. Forget about what they say, and pay attention to what they do. Look at their record. What have they done? Talk is cheap. Let's talk about actual accomplishments...

I have heard, of course, of negative outcomes with trainees. One lived with me this year for two months and last year for three months. He is an elders' son whose family has basically disowned him and I had to let him go twice. So I understand Ohio's concern and wish that the responsible brothers would respond to what he recommends.

But my point was that there are many trainees who gained Christ from the FTT and minister Christ today as positive products of the training and that categoric condemnation of the FTT is is untenable.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Indiana

I have heard, of course, of negative outcomes with trainees. One lived with me this year for two months and last year for three months. He is an elders' son whose family has basically disowned him and I had to let him go twice. So I understand Ohio's concern and wish that the responsible brothers would respond to what he recommends.

But my point was that there are many trainees who gained Christ from the FTT and minister Christ today as positive products of the training and that categoric condemnation of the FTT is is untenable.

This would seem to confirm my understanding that ministering the local church culture and the Recovery program is basically the same damn thing as "ministering Christ".

P.S. Does this guy's elder daddy "minister Christ" to others, while his son bounces around outside the ark? I bet he does. I bet it's very "positive", too.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

P.S. Does this guy's elder daddy "minister Christ" to others, while his son bounces around outside the ark? I bet he does. I bet it's very "positive", too.

Yes he does. Several times a year young people who meet with the local churches in the Philippines benefit from the brother's speaking and encouragement. As for his son or to be technical his step-son, I can speculate why their relationship is dysfunctional, but they know and the Lord knows the real situation.
While he's outside the ark, it's by choice. There are other Christian assemblies to be ministered by. If this brother's step-son wanted to go to the nearby local church and as I told the step-son, if he went to a LD meeting, there would be receiving with open arms. Of course lies the question, would the family's attitude toward him change from cutting him off to speaking with him?

[TLFisher]

Several recent developments over the last several months brought to mind, what is the standard of righteousness in the recovery?
In several cases there were individuals falsely accused and unjustly convicted of crimes they did not commit. I'm talking about the West Memphis Trio who served 18 years and more recently Amanda Knox who served 4 years.
Thankfully there is a justice system that will examine the facts and conclude there was no evidence warranting their conviction.
Can we say the same of the recovery? No, we cannot. All that is needed is one person's word and that's sufficient. There is no need to know anything. Knowing equates to knowledge and knowledge brings death.
Rather the LSM leadership is comparable to the prosecuter who even when there no evidence will still claim they did it. Even in this episode http://xfinitytv.comcast.net/tv/48-H...d=FCST_hero_tv where a prosecuter will omit evidence proving innocence just bring about a guilty verdict.
It's all about pride. How could I be wrong? It's in the flesh. No one wants to admit when they've been wrong. Or when their shortcomings is trusting too much in their peers.
I may be beating a dead horse over quarantines of brothers. My point is not about these brothers, but the practice of quarantines. If it happened to these brothers, it can happen to you.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Terry

I may be beating a dead horse over quarantines of brothers. My point is not about these brothers, but the practice of quarantines. If it happened to these brothers, it can happen to you.

Terry, this is why the Lord told us to eventually walk away and consider the offending brother as of no account. Eventually we can't let their offenses mess with our lives.

I think some of us want vindication. That's understandable, but the Lord didn't promise us that in this life. However he did say we can walk away, consider the offenders as of no account, and get on with our lives.

I understand wanting to make the world clearer about the goings-on at LSM and the LRC. I'm part of that. But whether LSM ever says "uncle" is up in the air, and no one should put his or her life on hold until they do. For freedom Christ has set us free.

[TLFisher]

Just press on.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Indiana

I have heard, of course, of negative outcomes with trainees. One lived with me this year for two months and last year for three months. He is an elders' son whose family has basically disowned him and I had to let him go twice. So I understand Ohio's concern and wish that the responsible brothers would respond to what he recommends.

But my point was that there are many trainees who gained Christ from the FTT and minister Christ today as positive products of the training and that categoric condemnation of the FTT is is untenable.

But you are wrong. The FTT continues the Witness Lee/Living Stream Ministry illusion, and perpetuates it. And Christ can be found without that strong bias toward another center other than Christ.

Let the local churches go into the same dustbin of history, with the brethren and others, like the Millerites.

[rayliotta]

Some of the more interesting fruit of the tree of life, as captured on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CdB8y3GHvs

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

But you are wrong. The FTT continues the Witness Lee/Living Stream Ministry illusion, and perpetuates it. And Christ can be found without that strong bias toward another center other than Christ.

Let the local churches go into the same dustbin of history, with the brethren and others, like the Millerites.

Brother Awareness, sometimes I read your posts and get the impression that you do not have a favorable opinion of the LRC.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

But you are wrong. The FTT continues the Witness Lee/Living Stream Ministry illusion, and perpetuates it. And Christ can be found without that strong bias toward another center other than Christ.

Let the local churches go into the same dustbin of history, with the brethren and others, like the Millerites.

I agree with Harold, Steve.

If I invite you over for dinner and feed you 80% delicious food and 20% poison are you going to praise me for my culinary skills? Or are you going to warn people to not be fooled by the good stuff I serve?

Stuff like "the Recovery" and "the minister of the age" and the "unique move of God" are not just a little off, they are poison. They even kind of sound good to the ignorant. A dog will lap up antifreeze because it tastes good to him. But in the end he'll be either dead or disabled, like many who fell into the LRC, perhaps to never achieve the potential God had for them.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I agree with Harold, Steve.

If I invite you over for dinner and feed you 80% delicious food and 20% poison are you going to praise me for my culinary skills? Or are you going to warn people to not be fooled by the good stuff I serve?

Stuff like "the Recovery" and "the minister of the age" and the "unique move of God" are not just a little off, they are poison. They even kind of sound good to the ignorant. A dog will lap up antifreeze because it tastes good to him. But in the end he'll be either dead or disabled, like many who fell into the LRC, perhaps to never achieve the potential God had for them.

20% poison, come on, it is probably closer to 10%

BTW, most food that we eat contains "acceptable quantities" of toxins.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

20% poison, come on, it is probably closer to 10%

BTW, most food that we eat contains "acceptable quantities" of toxins.

Yes, and at "acceptable quantities", can you still smell them when you're done eating?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

20% poison, come on, it is probably closer to 10%

BTW, most food that we eat contains "acceptable quantities" of toxins.

Yes, but expressed in parts per billion (ppb). Quantities far below what would be required to do damage to the human body.

And someone will point out that there are some toxins that even a very small amount in terms of ppb will quickly kill you. And it is true, although not that common. Most of the common toxins require significant quantities and there are lower quantities which, though not good for you, will not significantly harm you within a normal lifetime.

As for the percentage of poison in the LRC, it is difficult to say. But based on the way so many of them talk about things, I would suggest that the actual amount is irrelevant as it is generally well above the toxic level.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

All these questions are not hypothetical. They have really happened. I witnessed some of them. I heard stories about others. Oh sure, LSM has their attractive, spiritual-sounding rhetoric to entice the young, but should we not look at the fruit? Let's do some research. Why won't LSM let us examine the statistics on all their trainees? How many are still positive? Home many even still love the Lord? How many are still active in the churches?

I am very happy for my experience in the FTTT. I think it was a wonderful experience. I would think every church could and should know who went to the FTTx from their locale and what the outcome was. I think that two or three localities could share these results with each other and see if they warranted further study.

On the other hand I don't believe the FTTx ever lived up to the hype, nor do I think it really benefitted the church that much. And, I definitely feel that those running the FTTx were focused more on how to keep the FTTx going than they were on Christ.

[Ohio]

Brother ZNP, you entered the FTTT during its formative years and seemed to escape the type of experiences which were normal for most of the other attendants. Not to say that everything at the FTTx was negative, but there is so much hype and indoctrination which accompanies the program, and so little fruit.

Just as John Myer was expelled for not bringing his campus fruit to TC's regional events, one of the major reasons TC was quarantined was that saints in the GLA rarely attended LSM's "feasts" or FTTx.