Against LSM's Allegorizing

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Hey, KTS. It's so good to hear from you again. I've been thinking about you lately.

And "Hey" to you as well, dear brother Igzy!

Lately, I found myself thinking about you and all the ones here "fighting the good fight". This release of dear brother Nigel's Magnum Opus was the final event which brought me back.

I have mixed feelings about the new version of the "Bereans". We will see what God does with that . For now, I do feel a definite burden to be more involved around here.

It looks like this critique of LSM's allegorizing is already striking a deep chord. The axe is finally starting to be applied to the root of LSM's unhealthy teaching and ungodly behavior.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

It looks like this critique of LSM's allegorizing is already striking a deep chord. The axe is finally starting to be applied to the root of LSM's unhealthy teaching and ungodly behavior.

For some reason, I personally need solid irrefutable evidence to dislodge long held belief systems. Someone could scream the c-word at me for months with little result than to harden my resolve. Years ago, during the Mindbender controversy, I had even psychologically prepared myself for kidnapping and deprogramming, as it seemed almost an inevitable certainty at the time.

Documents, such as John Ingalls account and Nigel Tomes' recent article, have done for me what no amount of so-called "persecution" could ever do. As KisstheSon said, this article has taken the "axe to the root" to undermine WL's authority and integrity as a minister. It was not just teachings like the "ground of the church," or practices like "calling on the word," that caught my attention regarding the uniqueness of the "Recovery," but also the numerous allegorical expositions of the word of God, many of which singled out WL as "special." I began in the Recovery believing that WL's allegorizing ministry was divine inspired by the Head.

I found it just unbelievable that the allegorizing method of Bible exposition was used by Rome to enslave God's people prolonging the dark ages, and that the reformers ushered in the dawning day by categorically rejecting the methods of allegorizing. What I once viewed, with so many other saints, to be fresh anointing on the ministry of WL, turns out to be nothing more than age-old speculative devices, begun by Origen, and long discarded by Reformers and Christian scholars alike.

[awareness]

Allegorizing is used to develop mass hysteria like that seen at the Salem witch trials.

Allegorizing allows the imagination to go wild, and to appear to be based upon scripture when it ain't.

And yes, Witness Lee used allegory to enhance his standing above others, by appearing to see deeper things in scripture than was there, and looking like he had special omniscience that others didn't have.

Allegorizing is a tool of con men ...

[UntoHim]

Welcome to the forum RollingStone!

And a hearty welcome back to my friend kisstheson (or "smooch the Savior" as I think you were called in that parody somebody once did)

Leave it to another provocative piece by professor Tomes to get the juices running again! I've been in communication with Nigel about writing an in depth piece concerning 1 Corinthians 15:45 & 2 Corinthians 3:17, even providing him with a boatload of ammunition, but he won't indulge me. He better reconsider quick before I take on the task myself - Yikes...what a train wreck that could be! For the few of you out there who aren't already P.O'd at me that will probably put you over the edge for sure.

Hey Harold, buddy, friend, chief contrarian...

Allegorizing is used to develop mass hysteria like that seen at the Salem witch trials.
Allegorizing allows the imagination to go wild, and to appear to be based upon scripture when it ain't.

So ALL allegorizing leads to mass hysteria? Really? Like that seen at the Salem witch trials? What about the allegorizing that was done by the Lord Jesus...did that lead to mass hysteria or to witch trials? Of course not. Did the allegorizing done by the apostle Paul lead to mass hysteria or to witch trials? Of course not. The mass hysteria and witch trials were/are the production of sinful men totally apart from the instruction and inspiration of God and His Word.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Hey Harold, buddy, friend, chief contrarian...
So ALL allegorizing leads to mass hysteria? Really? Like that seen at the Salem witch trials? What about the allegorizing that was done by the Lord Jesus...did that lead to mass hysteria or to witch trials? Of course not. Did the allegorizing done by the apostle Paul lead to mass hysteria or to witch trials? Of course not. The mass hysteria and witch trials were/are the production of sinful men totally apart from the instruction and inspiration of God and His Word.

Now now buddy, friend, brother, defender of the faith, please don't tell me you are defending Lee's misuse of allegory of the Bible.

And I know you're not defending the Catholic Church's misuse and abuse of allegorizing of the Bible during the long dark ages.

You read Nigel's opus on misuse of allegory. And you know that difference between allegory in scripture, and allegorizing of scripture, where it isn't found in scripture.

As far as the mass hysteria remark, how can you deny it, that the local church was a type of mass hysteria?

You act like I wasn't there. But I was. I remember all the crazy public calling on the lord in the streets between meetings at conferences. I remember driving from west Detroit to downtown Detroit, for work, calling all the way there and back. And going to a conference from the C. in Ft. Lauderdale to Atlanta, having to call on the lord every time we passed a "call box" along the freeway. I remember even some meetings where all we did was call on the lord ; and the shouting and screaming that drove the neighbors crazy.

That was a type of mass hysteria. Maybe people weren't literally hung like at the Salem witch trials, but many were hung out to dry.

See it for what it was bro UnToHim. It was too a type of mass hysteria.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

As far as the mass hysteria remark, how can you deny it, that the local church was a type of mass hysteria?

You act like I wasn't there. But I was. I remember all the crazy public calling on the lord in the streets between meetings at conferences.

I don't see how WL's misuse of allegorizing scripture could lead to mass hysteria by calling on the name of the Lord. First of all, his abuse of allegorizing scripture, at worst, could be accounted for excessive fear holding us in bondage. This hysteria talk should probably be in a new thread.

The excesses of "calling" were more due to superstitions about entering the Lord's presence, and I attribute most of that to the 60's, with a youthful culture very conducive to craziness of all forms, coupled with drug-damaged emotional instabilities. I knew one brother who was in NoCal and he actually climbed into a dumpster to scream louder. We have to understand these strange events in the context of the day. Young people were far more "trusting" in those days and willing to "experiment" with every new thing that came from Calif. I knew other Christians who suddenly left all to move to some west coast commune after getting saved. All kinds of weird stuff happened, both within and without the Recovery. Campuses were filled with Nam-protesters and the ghettos were filled with burnt out projects. Wild times, yes, but the Spirit of God had a way to bring many young people to genuine salvation. Thank the Lord for that!

I screamed and shouted too, wearing gospel robes with the saints on marches, yelling at people to repent, and for a while the Lord was in it. Eventually, it became time to move on, and grow up.

[awareness]

Good post bro Ohio.....

.

[zeek]

I don't see how WL's misuse of allegorizing scripture could lead to mass hysteria by calling on the name of the Lord.

I don't either. Metaphorical interpretation is unavoidable to some extent. If anyone thinks WL's interpretation was wrong or evoked bad behavior then show us what it was. Blanket condemnation of allegorizing is stupid. Even guys who censured it, like Martin Luther, used it sometimes. Metaphorical concepts permeate language. Biblical literalism as applied by fundamentalists presents problems of its own. Besides, Lee's teaching regarding calling on the Lord didn't involve allegory. It was strictly literal. Did we get hysterical about it? Yes. But that must have been due to factors other than allegory.

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For some reason, I personally need solid irrefutable evidence to dislodge long held belief systems. Someone could scream the c-word at me for months with little result than to harden my resolve. Years ago, during the Mindbender controversy, I had even psychologically prepared myself for kidnapping and deprogramming, as it seemed almost an inevitable certainty at the time.

Documents, such as John Ingalls account and Nigel Tomes' recent article, have done for me what no amount of so-called "persecution" could ever do. As KisstheSon said, this article has taken the "axe to the root" to undermine WL's authority and integrity as a minister. It was not just teachings like the "ground of the church," or practices like "calling on the word," that caught my attention regarding the uniqueness of the "Recovery," but also the numerous allegorical expositions of the word of God, many of which singled out WL as "special." I began in the Recovery believing that WL's allegorizing ministry was divine inspired by the Head.

I found it just unbelievable that the allegorizing method of Bible exposition was used by Rome to enslave God's people prolonging the dark ages, and that the reformers ushered in the dawning day by categorically rejecting the methods of allegorizing. What I once viewed, with so many other saints, to be fresh anointing on the ministry of WL, turns out to be nothing more than age-old speculative devices, begun by Origen, and long discarded by Reformers and Christian scholars alike.

Your experience matches my experience, dear brother Ohio. I was always enthralled by all the "riches" Witness Lee could extract from the Bible by allegorizing. Surely we in the Local Churches had special access to riches hidden in the Word of God that the rest of Christianity knew so little about!

This article by dear brother Nigel is a "game-changer". While properly limiting the scope of his article in the section entitled "Some Caveats", Nigel proceeds to demonstrate how excessive, and how often arbitrary, was WL's approach to allegorizing. Nigel is ripping out a whole section of the bottom layer of LSM's "house of cards".

Probably the most sobering aspect of this article is that it reveals how close are the results of Rome's allegorizing and WL's allegorizing. I have often heard Roman Catholics claim that they have a Scriptural basis for their church's organized hierarchy and their various practices. We can all see that a plain reading of the Scriptures does not support this claim. But, once allegorizing of the Scripture is freely allowed, Rome can produce some really fanciful "proofs" which rely on hidden meanings dug out of the Scriptures by their learned "Doctors of the Church".

How scary it is to see the parallels between the results of Roman Catholic allegorizing and Witness Lee's allegorizing. Ironically, Rome is actually more consistent in its use of allegorzing!

May Nigel's efforts be examined by all who have an open heart and mind to truly consider these things in the light of God's presence. May this article serve as a healing balm to some troubled souls. May some be truly set free.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Your experience matches my experience, dear brother Ohio. I was always enthralled by all the "riches" Witness Lee could extract from the Bible by allegorizing. Surely we in the Local Churches had special access to riches hidden in the Word of God that the rest of Christianity knew so little about!

This article by dear brother Nigel is a "game-changer". While properly limiting the scope of his article in the section entitled "Some Caveats", Nigel proceeds to demonstrate how excessive, and how often arbitrary, was WL's approach to allegorizing. Nigel is ripping out a whole section of the bottom layer of LSM's "house of cards".

Yes, brother KisstheSon, you mention Nigel's section entitled "Some Caveats", which is indeed necessary for his document, but not really for me. Having been thoroughly indoctrinated in his "allegorizing ways," my pendulum has only moved from its extreme position back towards center. Many WL allegories like "leprosy in the house" I had long rejected, but last night, possibly in a dream, I was rehashing the old WL method of allegorizing from Exodus? -- "Here we have the number 96, which is 8 times 12. The number 8 means this and the number 12 mean that. It is also 6 times 16. The number 6 is such and the number 16 is such and such ..."

In the WL scheme of things, nothing in the Bible was what was actually written down. It all needed proper "interpretation." It was all coded language, supposedly hidden in scripture by the Economical God who wanted it all encoded by the latest MOTA during these final days of His "recovery." Much of this "coded language" in the scripture had never yet been "seen" in church history, with the few exceptions like dear brother Athanasius.

The paper mentions Origen as the "origin" of Biblical allegorizing, and Romanism as the "allegorizing-Nazis" in church history, but he leaves out the exclusive Brethren. Their liberal use of "hate-allegorizing" launched into overdrive with George Muller. Listening to George V. Wigram (a 19th century type of Benson Phillips and Ray Graver) et. al. one might think that every story in the O.T. was written with Muller in view. Amassing the volumes of exclusive rhetoric against Muller, one might think he was the most condemned man in all church history. How dare the Lord answer any of his prayers!

[RollingStone]

just contemplating that there is something within me that really enjoys allegory as I was thinking about one of my favorite movies that is full of allegory called "Being There"

I enjoy this movie as i see it is full of allegory and many themes can be related to and parallel themes in the the bible and Jesus Christ. Here is a url where you can watch a trailer from the movie http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi489947929/
I enjoyed this movie as it tells a story about a man who outwardly appears one way, you are led to believe that people are seeing his outward appearence and forming opinions based on what they see. He speaks in a simple way and they apply deep meaning to what he says and in the end it is revealed who he really is and what we are led to believe is not who we were thinking he was based on the movie. This is similar to our lives as many perceive us based on our outward appearence, sometimes people then make a judgement about us and attribute different things about what we say and still do not know the real person that is hidden inside.

I enjoyed this movie long before reading WL.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by RollingStone

just contemplating that there is something within me that really enjoys allegory as I was thinking about one of my favorite movies that is full of allegory called "Being There"

I enjoy this movie as i see it is full of allegory and many themes can be related to and parallel themes in the the bible and Jesus Christ. Here is a url where you can watch a trailer from the movie http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi489947929/
I enjoyed this movie as it tells a story about a man who outwardly appears one way

Another great con man preacher movie is : Elmer Gantry
Click here -> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053793/

It's also on youtube. I watched the whole movie on youtube ...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Your experience matches my experience, dear brother Ohio. I was always enthralled by all the "riches" Witness Lee could extract from the Bible by allegorizing. Surely we in the Local Churches had special access to riches hidden in the Word of God that the rest of Christianity knew so little about!

This note from Nigel's caught my attention. Notice how fundamental WL sounds, nothing like the "Allegorizer of the Age" he later became.

41. ... However, contrast the statement in the text with the following words of W. Lee, regarding Bible interpretation, in which he says “the first principle is to interpret and understand the Bible as literally as possible.” He elaborates, saying, “When God inspired men to write the Bible, He used words that are fully comprehensible to man. When we attempt to understand the Bible today, we must understand the thought of God strictly and accurately according to the letter of the words. We should not think that since the Bible is inspired by God, it will always transcend human language, and is therefore open for spiritual interpretation. This is a dangerous proposition. We should interpret the Bible according to the literal meaning of the words. No matter how difficult or out of place a literal interpretation appears to us, we have to adhere strictly to the literal meaning.” -- [W. Lee, On Knowing the Bible, Chapter 4, Section 1Reproduced in LSM’s Lesson Book, Level 6: The Bible—The Word of God, Chap. 22, Sec. 5]

This quote is exactly the kind of thing that conflicts many a reader. WL preached fundamental Bible exposition ... at times, yet often times he practiced something all together different. He covered all bases. When necessary, WL could appear totally harmless and fundamental to hush critics. Other times, WL could develop elaborate speculations to wow his followers. When things got heated up, he could allegorized himself as today's Moses, and woe to him who "rebels," who like Miriam would be stricken with leprosy.