Against LSM's Allegorizing

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

awareness, I understand your disallusionment with those who would manipulate scripture for personal gain, but we have another matter here related to the sovereignty and eternity of an omniscient God. Do you believe that God has inspired O.T. writers to portray types of the coming Messiah, with or without their knowing it? That is the real question here.

Perhaps a simpler question would be this -- do you believe the Bible is God's word or simply a collection of writings?

I gave up a magical Bible a long time ago.

And I can't tell you how many silly sermons I've heard using types from the OT.

So, if I never heard another sermon using types from the OT my life would be the richer for it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I gave up a magical Bible a long time ago.

And I can't tell you how many silly sermons I've heard using types from the OT.

So, if I never heard another sermon using types from the OT my life would be the richer for it.

That didn't work out very well.

Next time I'll have to try something different.

Greetings NB, stick around awhile. [/QUOTE]

greetings to you. I have been a leper a few times now. This is what I figured out the first time I was cast out of a church group.

2 Kings 6:25
[my observation]
When you are a leper in Samaria there is no use standing at the gate of the city wanting back in as there is a great famine in Samaria.

6:26 A woman (church is a woman?) cried out to him saying Help me, O my lord the king(type and shadow of Christ)


6:27 The King of Israel (type and shadow of Christ?) was passing on the wall and offered to help them. "From the threshing floor (His body?) or the winepress (His blood?)"

maybe literally was bread and wine but if I was offered literal bread and wine I would have took it instead of what comes next. [my opinion]

6:28 The king said to her, what is your trouble?

instead of responding to his question she says:

Give up your son that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow.
so they boiled the son and ate him
6:29 And on the next day the King said to her, Give up your son that we may eat him, but she hid her son.

This shows she did not keep her end of the bargain after the King gave up his son

This shows that the woman (church) was not true to what she had agreed to.
The King tore his clothes and had sackcloth underneath (signifies great grief)
chapter 7 starting with verse 3

the lepers are at the gate thinking that if they sit there they will die.
( I had this kind of thinking each time I have been a leper).

next they thought if they went back into the city they would die
(I had this kind of thought too).

So they figured they might as well go into the enemy camp and take a chance that they might not kill them.
( I believe anyone who is being viewed as a leper and is being rejected would have these kind of thoughts).


so at twilight (first glimmer of light(truth))(smile I am just making fun, probably is literally twilight) they went to the enemy camp.

to summerize their experience and mine is there was no enemy to be found,, provisions were left behind (food,drink and clothing) (is not cool to be a naked leper)
chapter 7 vs 9
they go back to tell the kings household
and the king rose up in the night (signifies darkness)
and thought that the lepers were in cahoots with the enemy and were trying to trick them into leaving thru the gates of the city(church) so they could all be killed by the enemy.

This is also my experience when I tried to share with all those who were still starving.

am skipping to chapter 7 vs 20

So in conclusion don't stand in the gate when the people come trampling out of the starving city. [my opinion)

Lord Jesus thank you for healing us lepers.

Love You Ned

Brothers please forgive me for using all these allegories.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ned Beck

Greetings NB, stick around awhile.

greetings to you. I have been a leper a few times now. This is what I figured out the first time I was cast out of a church group.

Hey, I enjoy tea at the Mad Hatter's tea party as much as the next fellow...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ned Beck

Brothers please forgive me for using all these allegories.

Hey Ned,

Yeah Allegory is a bad word these days, but we are trying to be a little more tolerant on this forum to other posters than we were back in the LC's.

Sometimes that don't always work out, so your past experience as a "leper" may actually help you out here.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hey Ned,

Yeah Allegory is a bad word these days, but we are trying to be a little more tolerant on this forum to other posters than we were back in the LC's.

Sometimes that don't always work out, so your past experience as a "leper" may actually help you out here.

Sorry I am not trying to be offensive, please forgive me. I see I am ready to pull the trigger too quickly or as I remember hearing someone say kill someone with a sword.
Again so so sorry.
Thank you and I appreciate being able to post here.
love you ned

[RollingStone]

WL in his footnotes commented on the churches descibed in Revelations as having attributes that were reflected in present day churches. He compared the "Recovery" to the church in Philadelphia. The church in Thyatira to the Catholic church. vs 20 foot note 2. In chapter 3 verse 1 footnote 1 he states that as a sign the church in Sardis prefigures the Protestant church. And WL in 3:14 footnote 1 "As a sign the church in Laodicea prefigures the degraded recovered church. In Rev 2:1 footnote 1 he refers to the suffering church under the persecution of the Roman empire as the church in Smyna.

The church in Pergamos in verse 1 footnote 1 WL only says that Pergomos was pre symbolizing the worldly church and does not tie it to a group, (ie Protestant, Catholic, Recovered, degraded Recovered) He attributes the Pergomos church to the time from Constantine until the papal system.

(my opinion) For the Recovery to compare themselves to the church in Philadelphia (brotherly love) I haven't been feeling the love part.

WL places these churches in a timeline one after another.
Lets consider brother that John wrote these letters to the seven churches that were in these locations at a certain time describing positive and negative attributes as to what the Spirit was saying to the churches.

Didn't these attributes exist there at that time and exist and have been growing since them. I believe that the Catholic Church has the attributes of what is described in the letter to the Church in Thyratira BUT doesn't it also have attributes that are expressed in the letter to the church in Pergamos. Does the Catholic Church have teachings of Balaam and the Nicolaitans? In 2:20 the negative thing is expressed. "But I have something against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel she who calls herself a prophetess and teaches and leads My slaves astray to commit fornication and to eat idol sacrifices. Can it be that this negative didn't manifest itself until the Catholic Church manifested as WL expresses in his footnotes? In that case the Church in Thyratira would have thought John was out of line for accusing them of being a bunch of Jezabels.

It is probably more likely that some in Thyratira would have understood what was meant by John.s letter.

Maybe WL used these footnotes to identify the "Recovery" as the approved church and identified with the positive aspects of the Church in Philadelphia to keep the sheep gathered in one place. I don't know and that is another subject as i want to focus on the church that he doesn't identify other than being the one that was worldly. Where in 2:14 the negative that is pointed out as that you have some there who hold onto the teachings of Balaam, who taugh Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel.

In WL 2:14 footnote 1 he states, In these epistles the Lord desired according to God's economy, that we eat Him as the tree of life (v.7), the hidden manna (v.17), and the rich produce of the land (3:20; see note 7 footnote 5 in this chapter); but the worldly church turned from life to mere teachings, thus distracting the believers from enjoying Christ as their life supply for the fullfillment of God's purpose. The enjoyment of Christ builds up the church, whereas teachings issue in a religion.

Isn't this what Living Stream doing? They are focusing on 1 teaching and calling it the oneness in the body.

Isn't Living Stream being critical of those enjoying Christ a strategy to keep the focus on their teaching?

They have become a religion. (My opinion)

footnote 15:1
Have they not become Balaam? distracting the believers from the person of Christ to idoatry. Don't they manifest the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Issued forth teachings that have destroyed the function of the believers as members of the Body of Christ.

They have idolized LSM, LSM materials, Witness Lee to the point of accepting nothing else.
EVERYTHING ELSE IS REJECTED.

They have expressed that they already have everything and have no need.

They are in love with LSM traditions and customs and reject anything else.


The following is included in a wikippedia desciption for Moabite:


Balaam was a Gentile priest who could hear from God who lived with the Moabites next to the Israelites. They had the same history as being decendants of Lot who left Sodom with Abraham.

they have the same ancestry and history, they had the same language, they had the same thoughts and understanding as the Israelites. But what were their teachings as mentioned in the letter to the Church in Pergomos.

Could it be they taught that they could hear from the most High and didn't need anything from the Israelites? They didn't give them anything either as when meeting them they don't give you food and drink and were taught to curse you. (haven't we been quaranteed, called lepers)( I have been called a "smelly brother" as I have been near the Great Lakes brothers so we are all stinky I guess)(should we make a list of all the curses that have come our way?) I am sure cursing has gone both ways. Maybe you will be mad at me for calling you a Moabite and your leadership that is controling you Balaam. Like the Moabites you have become exclusive from everyone elses worship. My hope is that i am a jackass that is speaking about what direction that you are heading with the hope thatyou can go another way.
Ned
Wikipedia :Moabite
[edit] Moabite and Israelite Relations
According to Genesis, the Moabites were relatives of the Israelites, both peoples tracing their descent back to a common ancestor, Terah. Terah's son Haran fathered Lot, whose son Moab was born after an incestuous relationship between Lot and his eldest daughter (Genesis 19:37). The Moabites descended from Lot's son Moab.
The Moabites were friendly with the Egyptians, having kinship ties with them through Joseph[citation needed]. The principal shrine in Moab was Beyt-baal-me’on, which means “house/shrine of the baal/master/god of On.” The principal shrine of On was in the sacred city of Heliopolis in Egypt and Joseph married one of the daughters of the high priest of On. Mesha, the King of Moab, built a reservoir at Beth-baal-me’On (II Kings 3). On the Moabite or Mesha Stone (discovered in 1868 at Dibon) it is recorded that King Mesha “reigned in peace over the hundred towns which he had added to the land. And he built Medeba and Beth-diblathen and Beth-baal-me”On, and he set there the … of the land.” The stone is defaced at this point so we do not know what the King set up, but it was likely an image of his god, Ashtar-Chemosh.
The Moabites welcomed Egyptian protection provided by a chain of border fortresses that enabled Egypt to control the Sinai. One of these forts was at Ir-Moab, on the Arnon River. During Joseph’s era Egypt traded with Damascus, moving goods through Moab.
The Moabites were to be excluded from the assembly of worshipers, because: “They did not come to meet you with food and drink when you were on your way out of Egypt, and even hired Balaam, son of Beor, to oppose you by cursing you.” (Deuteronomy 23:3-5) The Israelites were allowed to harass Moab, but were forbidden to wage war on them, so they defeated Midian as a result of the advice that Balaam gave that led to a plague in punishment for the worship of idols at Baal Peor. Only the men of Moab and Ammon were forbidden to marry into the Israelite nation, but the women were permitted to convert without restriction. That is why King David who descended from Ruth could be king and the mother of his grandson Rehoboam son of Solomon was from Ammon. This issue was covered in the Talmud and attributed to Doeg the Edomite.
[edit] Biblical narrative (through the conquest by Israel)

According to Genesis 19:30-38, Moab was the son of Abraham's nephew Lot by his elder daughter, while Ammon was Moab's half-brother by a similar union of Lot with his younger daughter after the destruction of Sodom. The close ethnological affinity of Moab and Ammon which is thus attested[9] is confirmed by their subsequent history, while their kinship with the Israelites is equally certain, and is borne out by the linguistic evidence of the Moabite Stone. They are also mentioned in close connection with the Amalekites,[10] the inhabitants of Mount Seir (the descendants of Esau),[11] the Edomites,[12] the Canaanites,[13] the Sethites[14] and the Philistines.[15] The story of Moab's incestuous conception may be intended to relegate the Moabites to a lesser status than that of the Israelites. Although, given that Abraham's nephew Lot was the founding father of the Moabites and was spared in Sodom for upholding righteous virtues, the Moabites were clearly derived from similar stock of pious principles as the Israelites.
The Moabites first inhabited the rich highlands at the eastern side of the chasm of the Dead Sea, extending as far north as the mountain of Gilead, from which country they expelled the Emim, the original inhabitants,[16] but they themselves were afterward driven southward by warlike tribes of Amorites, who had crossed the river Jordan. These Amorites, described in the Bible as being ruled by King Sihon, confined the Moabites to the country south of the river Arnon, which formed their northern boundary.[17]
The Israelites, in entering the "promised land", did not pass through the Moabites, (Judges 11:18) but conquered Sihon's kingdom and his capital at Heshbon. After the conquest of Canaan the relations of Moab with Israel were of a mixed character, sometimes warlike and sometimes peaceable. With the tribe of Benjamin they had at least one severe struggle, in union with their kindred the Ammonites and the Amalekites.[18] The Benjaminite shofet Ehud ben Gera assassinated the Moabite king Eglon and led an Israelite army against the Moabites at a ford of the Jordan river, killing many of them.
The story of Ruth, on the other hand, testifies to the existence of a friendly intercourse between Moab and Bethlehem, one of the towns of the tribe of Judah. By his descent from Ruth, David may be said to have had Moabite blood in his veins. He committed his parents to the protection of the king of Moab (who may have been his kinsman), when hard pressed by King Saul. (1 Samuel 22:3,4) But here all friendly relations stop forever. The next time the name is mentioned is in the account of David's war, who made the Moabites tributary.[19] Moab may have been under the rule of an Israelite governor during this period; among the exiles who returned to Judea from Babylonia were a clan descended from Pahath-Moab, whose name means "ruler of Moab".
After the destruction of the First Temple, the knowledge of which people belonged to which nation was lost and the Moabites were treated the same as other gentiles. As a result, all members of the nations could convert to Judaism without restriction. The problem in Ezra and Nehemiah occurred because Jewish men married women from the various nations without their first converting to Judaism.
[edit] Reassertion of independence


Map of the southern Levant, c.830s BC. Kingdom of Judah
Kingdom of Israel
Philistine city-states
Phoenician states
Kingdom of Ammon
Kingdom of Edom
Kingdom of Aram-Damascus
Aramean tribes
Assyrian Empire
Kingdom of Moab
Arubu tribes
Nabatu tribes



At the disruption of the kingdom under the reign of Rehoboam, Moab seems to have been absorbed into the northern realm. It continued in vassaldom to the Kingdom of Israel until the death of Ahab, when the Moabites refused to pay tribute and asserted their independence, making war upon the kingdom of Judah.[20]
After the death of Ahab the Moabites under Mesha rebelled against Jehoram, who allied himself with Jehoshaphat, King of Kingdom of Judah, and with the King of Edom. According to the Bible, the prophet Elisha directed the Israelites to dig a series of ditches between themselves and the enemy, and during the night these channels were miraculously filled with water which was as red as blood. Deceived by the crimson color into the belief that their opponents had attacked one another, the Moabites became overconfident and were entrapped and utterly defeated at Ziz, near En Gedi,[21] which states that the Moabites and their allies, the Ammonites and the inhabitants of Mount Seir, mistook one another for the enemy, and so destroyed one another). According to Mesha's inscription on the Mesha Stele, however, he was completely victorious and regained all the territory of which Israel had deprived him. The battle of Ziz is the last important date in the history of the Moabites as recorded in the Bible. In the year of Elisha's death they invaded Israel.[22] and later aided Nebuchadnezzar in his expedition against Jehoiakim.[23]
Although allusions to Moab are frequent in the prophetical books[24] and although two chapters of Isaiah (xv.-xvi.)

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by RollingStone

WL in his footnotes commented on the churches descibed in Revelations as having attributes that were reflected in present day churches....

Hello dear RollingStone. Welcome to our discussion forum.

Over the years, I have come to many of the very same conclusions that you have. If we allow that the Local Churches in the late 1960's and early 1970's did indeed have "life" and "love" on the "ground of locality", the incredibly sad irony is that they sacrificed all these things for the sake of oneness with a specific set of teachings, i.e. Witness Lee's ministry.

For the sake of being "absolute" for Witness Lee's ministry, the Local Churches loyal to Living Stream Ministry have become very exclusive and sectarian "ministry-churches". They have violated their own principles in regard to the "ground of locality". The emphasis now is very much on teachings and the ability to respeak those teachings. The LSM-loyal churches do not comprise some special "Recovery"; rather, they have fallen into exactly the same trap as many groups which preceded them. For all practical purposes, another denomination has been born. These facts should humble those who are still involved in the LSM-loyal churches. May they come to a full repentance.

I too had to question why the LSM-loyal churches had so little love when they claimed so adamantly to be today's "Philadelphia" (i.e. "brotherly love"). It is a really hard thing to try to come up against such an arrogant and elitist attitude. All things are in God's hands, so I trust that He gained something for His purpose by having my family in the LSM-loyal LC as long as he did. It was an eye-opening experience in many ways. I am sadder but wiser, that is for sure, and I am also very, very, thankful that He led us out of the LSM-loyal LC and that we followed Him.

May we continue to "look away unto Jesus". May God have mercy on us all.

[RollingStone]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Hello dear RollingStone. Welcome to our discussion forum...

Amen,, thank you for responding as I was feeling super sad after bringing up a lot of memories. I paid a price to be part of LSM as I chose them over my wife. I started meeting with the Recovery in 94. After meeting for about 2 yrs. she knew something was not right but couldn't figure out what it was. I thought she was trying to prevent me from being with the body of Christ. I was mad at Christianity at the time and thought that God was blessing me with all the riches and miraculously I had found the real church.
Looking back I am happy that I have been taken out against my will.

amen may God have mercy. what a life lesson.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That didn't work out very well.

Next time I'll have to try something different.

You're a sweetheart bro Ohio.

Plus, we're not Jews. At least I'm not. And Jesus, a Jew, came to the house of Israel, and the writers of the New Testament were Jews.

So they're not going to use Hindu references. They were speaking to Jews.

And so why do we treat holy writ like the Jews treated their Torah, and Tanakh? We're not even Jewish Christians, like the Nazarenes, like the church of Jerusalem.

If we were we would be speaking of the Talmud out here.

Originally Posted by awareness

You're a sweetheart bro Ohio.

Plus, we're not Jews. At least I'm not. And Jesus, a Jew, came to the house of Israel, and the writers of the New Testament were Jews.

So they're not going to use Hindu references. They were speaking to Jews.

And so why do we treat holy writ like the Jews treated their Torah, and Tanakh? We're not even Jewish Christians, like the Nazarenes, like the church of Jerusalem.

If we were we would be speaking of the Talmud out here.

Maybe you only have one eye open, as the Jews are the root that the Gentiles are grafted into. Interesting Balaam only could see with one eye.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

You're a sweetheart bro Ohio.

Plus, we're not Jews. At least I'm not. And Jesus, a Jew, came to the house of Israel, and the writers of the New Testament were Jews.

So they're not going to use Hindu references. They were speaking to Jews.

I'm glad I was able to communicate my real attitude, without something getting lost in the translation.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I gave up a magical Bible a long time ago.

And I can't tell you how many silly sermons I've heard using types from the OT.

So, if I never heard another sermon using types from the OT my life would be the richer for it.

are you serious, what about the classic WL message about the vines sculpted into tabernacle. Eventually it is a tangled mess that even WL couldn't figure out so he said it typifies the interrelationships between all the saints and churches after marriages, migrations, etc. Now isn't your life richer for seeing this?

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

are you serious, what about the classic WL message about the vines sculpted into tabernacle. Eventually it is a tangled mess that even WL couldn't figure out so he said it typifies the interrelationships between all the saints and churches after marriages, migrations, etc. Now isn't your life richer for seeing this?

What? Witness Lee acknowledged that he weaved a tangled mess?

There really was a repentance!