My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...

NeitherFirstnorLast · 07-26-2011, 04:26 PM

Oh Lord, I want to speak something here that is very likely going to offend some members. While I do not wish to offend, neither can I be responsible for how what I feel I need to share will be received. You told me that Father, and I will be faithful to You. I don't want anyone to think I am 'coming after them' - that's never been my intent; and while I'm certain many Corinthians felt the same about Paul's first letter to them - yet he (Paul) never regretted offering them the Truth in Love. After all, did Christ not say: "Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets" Luke 6:26

Let me start by saying that I value you all, and have appreciated the fellowship I have received these past eight months. Over the course of these months I have learned many things - but in truth, I haven't grown in my faith or my walk with God because of anything I've read here: and that, I believe, is equally applicable to my time in the so-called Local Church.

Brothers and sisters, it seems to me that for those of us who come here who are no longer members of LSM, there ought to be agreement that we made it out of that system for a reason. We may have different reasons for leaving (or being removed from fellowship, if that is the case), but regardless of what the particularities of those reasons are, we ought to be in agreement that we are in a better place now than we were then. If we don't feel that way, then surely we ought to follow our conscience and make whatever concessions we must in order to be 'restored to fellowship' with LSM.

We - and by “we” I don't mean myself and anyone else in my life outside of this Forum - I mean us: those of us who come to this website: we have spent time going through the sordid details that fill the unpublished annals of LSM history. We have broken through the false teachings of the man who called himself the Minister of the Age, and agreed, have we not? - that this man and his ministry was WRONG. Seeing how wrong LSM was should put us on a path to righteousness – back to the narrow way to and through Christ Jesus our Lord, but I do not see that happening here: and I don’t believe that any current members of LSM who come here will see it either.

This place has become an infirmary for the wounded, but one without a Physician. A kind of counselling centre without the Wise Counsellor Himself. Friends, do you not see we need to “look intently at the perfect law that gives freedom” James 1:25, for “His Word will not return to Him void” Isaiah 55:11. Where is the preaching of that precious Word here? No friends, too much time is spent here re-living the past, that there can be no Living in Full, as Christ promised us (‘I have come that you might have Life in Full, and have it more abundantly!’) John 10:10. Friends, we reap what we sow… and too much of what is sown here is pain. Pain, heart-ache, regret, anger, despair… but no hope, no truth, and no life. Our eyes are turned inward, not upward. Seeing that Lee was wrong has not lead all of us to see that we too were wrong. For some it has become a pick-and-choose of Lee’s theology, without the realization that the entire ministry was built upon false pretences and is therefore corrupt.

Lee taught that learning his interpretation was our highest call. Eat, drink, enjoy Christ – breathe deeply the pneumatic Christ and sing a hymn of Lee’s about what Godmen we are to become… for He came to serve us, didn’t He?

How could Lee not see that Christ came to serve us to give us an example while He was among us… and not to serve us throughout the ages. Christ is God in the flesh – and while He came as the meek lamb over 2,000 years ago, the time draws nigh when He will come again in Glory – and I think we gravely underestimate the lateness of the hour.

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’, and not DO what I say?” He asked (Luke 6:46). Are not those who come to hear His Word and do them likened unto a man who digs a deep foundation to build his house upon a Rock. Built on that rock so that even when the storms come – as they inevitably do, they cannot shake a house on so firm a foundation.

Have you been shaken my friends? Where then did you build your house? In whom did you trust? When the night is dark and you find yourself in the valley of the shadow of death. What do you fear? The Lord is with you.

Have you not heard that you are to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?” Philippians 2:12. Have you considered what that means? You went through what you did for a purpose – and Praise the Lord He called you out of that… now TRUST HIM. FOLLOW HIM.

Who is it that came to raise the dead? Who gave sight to the blind and caused the lame to walk? Who healed the leper and embraced him? It was our Christ, our King who did this. Do you not know enough to seek Him for the healing you now need? Have you become so blinded by anger, resentment, and self-pity that you have forgotten Him? If you want to walk, friends, then take up your mat and walk! Why do you lie here where there are only the rest of the wounded, and no Physician to heal you? He loves you still, and is only waiting for you to turn to Him!

Do you think the wisdom of this age ought to apply to your circumstance? Do you think that support groups, and psychologists, and self-help gurus and ‘getting it off your chest’ will get you back on the narrow way? That is foolishness, and that is the foolishness I’ve been hearing here lately.

Friends, imagine you were alive in the age when Christ walked in the flesh. Imagine you were the Pharisee called Nicodemus. Here was a man who came to Christ seeking answers, answers that would tell him that where he thought he was right with God, in truth he was on the wrong side and needed to be born again. Leaving the Sanhedrin, abandoning his friends and the beliefs he'd been taught as a Pharisee, that must have been a tremendously difficult task for him (for he certainly didn’t do it... at least, not right away, if at all) but the Lord didn't give Nicodemus an easy out. He didn't say, 'listen.... you've learned a lot of good things too, in your time in the Sanhedrin. Take your time with this, it's going to be tough. Therapy might be the answer – perhaps a support group with fellow ex-Pharisees here.' No my friends, that's the worldly foolishness I’m talking about, and where it might work with psychological issues, it doesn't work with Spiritual ones. Christ's call was clear: 'Come out of her, My people.'

Imagine the Jehovah's Witness who comes to cling to Christ’s rugged cross. Born into a Kingdom Hall, he learned their own New World Translation backwards and forwards... but suddenly, Christ gained him... and transformed, he realized that he no longer belonged in a Kingdom Hall. Imagine how tough that is. If anyone can imagine it, you can. The lifestyle and the teaching methods of JW's don't differ so much from LSM's. Now, could you, as a Christian, tell this former JW that 'you learned a lot of good things with the JW's, and since leaving is hard, then please continue to work through the pain and hurt - and try to sift out the good from the bad so that the abruptness of the change isn't so difficult for you?’

Imagine you were a Mormon, who is suddenly born again! You walked the streets in the white shirt and black tie, and vainly tried to gain followers for your movement rather than followers for Christ. You had learned a lot of good things from the Book of Mormon, and laying it down now is painful. It means you need to admit that you were wrong - that you followed the false prophet Joseph Smith - and lead people not to salvation but to damnation. Could any of us, as Christians, tell this former Mormon that he need not abandon the Book of Mormon? That he could reconcile the true Faith with a false one, and thereby escape the pain of leaving. Could we?

Too close to home? Imagine you were a Hindu - a good man, even one like Gandhi. Have you ever read the Baghavad Gita? A beautiful book that teaches many intellectual 'truths'. Perhaps you would be okay with telling a Hindu who embraced Christ as his Saviour that he needn't abandon the intellectual wisdoms of this book in favour of the Truth and the Way?

I hoped dear ones, that you couldn't. But that’s what you’re doing here.

I have spent time outlining that according to Scripture, Lee was not just wrong - not JUST a misguided minister of another color, who erred on some points or with whom we might disagree on the finer points of doctrine - rather he, Lee, was something more: A False Apostle. A False Prophet.

Scripture is clear, and I've quoted it many times: we are to turn from such False Apostles and leave their teaching.

Matthew 7:15-23 (the Sermon on the Mount):
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

From 2nd Peter we read: "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them – bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping"

and from 1st John: "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Now, if you disagree that Lee was a False prophet, then I have nothing more to say to you here. It has been expounded long enough – the evidence which we’ve ALL contributed is absolutely overwhelming. If you don’t believe it, then perhaps you don’t really believe there is such a thing as a false prophet. Perhaps you don’t even really believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. If the only nourishment you got from God’s Word came from LSM, then perhaps that wouldn’t even be surprising. This is hard speaking – but so is our Lord: We are to stand to defend the Faith. Did He not say, “You think I came to bring peace? I tell you not peace, but the Sword.” Matthew 10:34
Saints, have you noticed the conspicuous absence of certain men here? Where is John Ingalls? Where is this brother who saw so much and could have revealed to us sooner the folly of the path we were on? Do you know where that Brother is? He’s out pursuing the Lord. He took up his mat, and he walked.
Should we not do likewise?

I will.

Mike, in a recent post you said (and I paraphrase) that we can either stay here or we can leave and leave our ‘cave paintings’ behind us. That, brother, is the wiser of the two choices. Christian living is about living first – and that is something that LSM never taught. It is about faith IN ACTION – We are Saved b y Grace through Faith, it’s true – but True Faith produces work, and Faith without works is dead - and where here is the action, where are the works? Where in LSM was the action and the works? Have you heard that ‘God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong’ 1st Corinthians 1:27. I would rather be foolish for Christ than ‘wise’ in the Word as those in LSM and those who hold to their teachings believe they were. Consider Saints, ‘and a little child shall lead them.’… ‘of such is the Kingdom of Heaven made’.

I pray for us all. I pray that we grow and that one day we really can be One as Christ and the Father are one. I pray His will be done, I pray that you choose to follow Him and take the healing He offers. I pray for those still in LSM, that eyes and ears be opened and hearts softened to the Truth. I pray, brothers and sisters, that you can finally move on too… I pray you do not forsake the physical and spiritual gathering together with fellow believers. I pray you do not despise ‘lesser’ learned members of the Body, and thereby miss their portion of grace. I pray you learn to hear the words of the saints who’ve come before us throughout the ages… for God is the same yesterday, today and forever . I pray that even as I was not the first to come here, neither will I be the last to leave – and that those who do leave do so to follow Him. Be overcomers.

Your brother in Christ,
Ray Krohn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDd7XvmvtOM

awareness · 07-26-2011, 07:27 PM

Hear! Hear! The preacher preacheth to us. Sounds like the LRC, cuz we're all poor, poor, poor, Christians to him. But at least he cares about us ... us mindless doofuses.

Ohio · 07-26-2011, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Hear! Hear! The preacher preacheth to us. Sounds like the LRC, cuz we're all poor, poor, poor, Christians to him. But at least he cares about us ... us mindless doofuses.

Well bro, you got to appreciate when another brother shares from his heart. I really don't think he was talking down at us. His message is challenging, something we all have to consider.

OBW · 07-27-2011, 05:00 AM

Well, there you have it. Someone said it in a different way. And maybe in a way that will get at the minds of those who think that it is safe to retain Lee while thinking through what of his might have been error.

Paul said to reject certain kinds of teachers. Not to do the "separate the meat from the bones and feathers" thing. That doesn't always work. And that kind of exhortation presumes that we have everything we need to discern the difference. Maybe as a group we do. But as individuals we don't. And the smaller the group, the closer it is to being no more resourceful than one.

That is the reason there are teachers. That is the reason they went to the Temple for the Apostles' teaching. That is the reason Timothy was left in Ephesus while they did not yet have sufficient resources of their own.

It has been only about a day ago that I agreed with Ohio that it might be wise for him to retain Lee since he had nothing before. But given the permeating nature of Lee's errors, I might revise that sentiment now. He knows the core of the faith. He has been able to read for himself for many years, going all the way back to the time just before the Revelation training. (And I was there as well.)

The better advice might be as follows. Don't intentionally retain Lee. If it is not something necessary at the moment or something you are looking into, don't so much retain it as just not consider it. Once it is forefront for whatever reason — sermon series, small group study, covered in some book you are reading — intentionally presume Lee was wrong. That does not mean intentionally presume the other source is right. But no matter how hard you try, the result will probably be no better than lowering Lee to one of two or more viable readings. Take in what you see, not what you were taught to see. Allow the competing interpretation(s) at least equal standing or consideration.

How do you decide what to analyze in this manner? Anything where you find yourself questioning those fine Christians around you simply because it was not the way you learned it in the LRC. I'll be honest to admit that I have not always ended out in complete agreement with those fine Christians. (But neither have I found my way back to Lee in those situations.) But I realize that I can continue with them anyway. You really can be one with people you don't agree with 100 percent on all issues.

Have a problem with there being a preacher, or even a team of preachers? Read the Word. It actually seems to indicate that there are those who should teach the rest of us. Think that means we are just too stupid? Remember that we all have an anointing and at some level we do know. Think Babylon was something to simply flee from back to Jerusalem (and is a type of Christianity v the LRC)? Discover that at least one of the significant figures in the rebuilding of Jerusalem went there for a while, then returned to serve the king of Persia. And it would seem that God was ordaining that it was time to scatter the Jews throughout the world as the start of the blessing of the Gentiles that would be fully realized when Jesus sent the disciples "into all the world." No special status for those who returned to Jerusalem and deficient status for those who did not.

According to Paul, Lee did not qualify to be a teacher. He (Lee, not Paul) should be rejected as a source of truth. Why simply rejected? Because you really can't tell the meat from the bones. We have been conditioned to accept Lee's teachings as meat and everything else as bones. We were taught that this was the Spirit. You can't even rely on what you simply think is your sense of the Spirit. The Spirit may instead lead you to take the rowboat or the helicopter with a well-educated preacher rowing/flying rather than just remain on the roof while the waters rise around you waiting for that direct, "I can sense it directly from God" kind of speaking. If we just need the sense of the Spirit, then we don't really even need each other. And Christianity will truly become the chaos and anarchy of churches of one.

Ohio · 07-27-2011, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

It has been only about a day ago that I agreed with Ohio that it might be wise for him to retain Lee since he had nothing before. But given the permeating nature of Lee's errors, I might revise that sentiment now. He knows the core of the faith. He has been able to read for himself for many years, going all the way back to the time just before the Revelation training. (And I was there as well.)

Who is "retaining Lee?" My only point, which I have already made in far too many posts by now, is not to throw out the good (our faith in Jesus and the Bible) with the bad (our past acceptance of Lee's errant teachings), as some ex-members have done and have become shipwrecked regarding the faith. We need some healthy discernment as the Spirit also tells the Hebrews (in v.5.14) who similarly were having much difficulty with their own past history, vis-a-vis the Jewish teachings and traditions that hindered them from pursuing Christ.

And in this regard, the forum can be helpful. It is a place, albeit toxic at times, where we can interface with other departing members concerning the teachings and practices of LSM and the LC's to become better educated and, in effect, "sort things out."

Hey folks, I seemed to have prompted a firestorm of sorts with this specific view of mine. If enough others feel the same way as OBW and NFNL, I would be glad to leave the forum, no hard feelings and all that. Better brothers than I have reached a similar point and moved on. Perhaps my time has also come.

OBW · 07-27-2011, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hey folks, I seemed to have prompted a firestorm of sorts with this specific view of mine. If enough others feel the same way as OBW and NFNL, I would be glad to leave the forum, no hard feelings and all that. Better brothers than I have reached a similar point and moved on. Perhaps my time has also come.

You mistake the pointed issue of not retaining Lee with acceptance of not retaining the faith. I only commented on that. And you are probably getting angrier with me right now as you read my post on the other thread.

Don't bother leaving. I'll do it for you. But it was not your "specific view" concerning rejecting both Lee and the faith that got any feedback from me. It was the advisability of retaining Lee. Only that. While I admit that you could find some difficulty in rejecting Lee, are you saying that you do not now have a non-LRC, non-Lee source for filling in the blanks? I bet you do. You just continue (presumably) to be hesitant to accept it because you have not rejected Lee. Have faith. There is a firm foundation outside the LRC. It just uses those terms and ways that we were taught so strongly to reject. Makes it hard to let go.

zeek · 07-27-2011, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Who is "retaining Lee?" My only point, which I have already made in far too many posts by now, is not to throw out the good (our faith in Jesus and the Bible) with the bad (our past acceptance of Lee's errant teachings), as some ex-members have done and have become shipwrecked regarding the faith. We need some healthy discernment as the Spirit also tells the Hebrews (in v.5.14) who similarly were having much difficulty with their own past history, vis-a-vis the Jewish teachings and traditions that hindered them from pursuing Christ.

And in this regard, the forum can be helpful. It is a place, albeit toxic at times, where we can interface with other departing members concerning the teachings and practices of LSM and the LC's to become better educated and, in effect, "sort things out."

Hey folks, I seemed to have prompted a firestorm of sorts with this specific view of mine. If enough others feel the same way as OBW and NFNL, I would be glad to leave the forum, no hard feelings and all that. Better brothers than I have reached a similar point and moved on. Perhaps my time has also come.

I haven't read everything in this thread yet, but don't leave. Who says we have to agree about anything to particpate here? We're just talking.

ZNPaaneah · 07-27-2011, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Brothers and sisters, it seems to me that for those of us who come here who are no longer members of LSM, there ought to be agreement that we made it out of that system for a reason. We may have different reasons for leaving (or being removed from fellowship, if that is the case), but regardless of what the particularities of those reasons are, we ought to be in agreement that we are in a better place now than we were then. If we don't feel that way, then surely we ought to follow our conscience and make whatever concessions we must in order to be 'restored to fellowship' with LSM.

You take a very complicated issue and boil it down to a yes/no answer, and that is where some of us are taking exception.

1. What do you mean "no longer members of LSM"? I served in the LSM but never considered myself a "member of the LSM". That sounds like the Nazi party or something. I always considered myself a member of the Body of Christ. So is this a typo, did you mean LRC (or some other abbreviation) or did you mean LSM?

2. "a better place" is very troubling to me. We talk about how exclusive and elitist the LRC was, if that was a key component of their error, and I believe it was, why would I want to leave that "country club" and go to "a better place"? I feel condemned for even swallowing that "we are God's move on earth" spiel, why would I then want to take up a new "better place"?

I feel that I am under God's sovereignty. I feel I am where He wants me to be. I feel I am where I am today as a result of answered prayer and the Lord's leading. But I also feel that 30 years ago it was His sovereignty that I met with the LRC, it was His sovereignty that I served in the LSM, it was His sovereignty that I was a missionary in Taiwan, etc. I feel I have learned from my experiences, hallelujah! Amen. Because I have learned from them hopefully I won't repeat them! That is why I want to dissect the LRC history, so that I don't repeat the error again.

I do not have the slightest inclination to discard 30 years of experience in the Lord, 20 with the LRC. Nor do I intend to forget the experiences, answered prayers, or revelations that the Lord gave to me. The fact that WL was a charlatan does not shake my faith in the slightest, my faith wasn't based on WL.

But I am very interested in purging out the old leaven of the LSM teachings. I use the term leaven to indicate something that has spread and become totally pervasive, not necessarily something that is evil, malicious, or sinful. I equate leaven simply with something that becomes pervasive. That is one reason I find this forum very interesting and truly enjoy the words of MikeH, or OBW, or Awareness. Without their help I would not be able to examine these teachings. Sometimes I may play devil's advocate, but there was far too much rubber stamp acceptance of WL, which I think was another cause for the error.

On the other hand I could not tolerate this forum without the fellowship of Ohio or Igzy or others with a view that more closely aligns with my own. That said I don't want us to fall into camps or "parties".

But I find some of this discussion on WL to be somewhat absurd. Some of these brothers that seem so antagonistic towards him appear to have come into the LRC after he died, or at the very least at the very end of his life. [I was around from 78-85 which I would consider 8 of his strongest and most influential years, I was in Houston and Irving and attended the trainings (so I met WL on numerous occasions and did have some first hand experience of him) and I was in the FTTT when WL was there in Hall 1. Yet even so, I consider him to only be a small percent of my LRC experience, honestly, 10% is the most I could give him, and to be real it is probably more like 5%. To discard his teachings is no effort, I never had any use for the LSM books. I never used them. I treated the Life Studies as a springboard. Now I realize my approach was diametrically opposite others like EM that was a brother that also entered the LRC about the same year as myself also in Houston. So if WL was 5% of my LRC experience from 78 to 85 and after that he wasn't any of it, that would make his total impact closer to 2%.] Now if that is my case, how much of an impact could he really have on these brothers who are making such a big deal about him? (Of course I am not referring to Awareness who did have personal experience.)

NeitherFirstnorLast · 10-07-2012, 05:37 PM

"So I say to her, 'What version of the Bible do you read?' And she says: "The Recovery version." It is Wednesday evening, and I've just come home from Bible study with my wife. The voice on the phone, that greeted me with this odd snippet of conversation, is that of a dear friend and brother in Christ - the very one, in fact, with whom I'd first met for Bible Study here in Three Hills, Alberta.

This brother knows my testimony, I've shared with him the very things I've shared here with you all - and then some. He has heard of the RcV... I brought mine to his house a number of times, and carried it to our Sunday worship services for a number of months, before finally setting it on our bookshelf to start fresh with a new wide-margin NASB. While I have mentioned our time in the LSM church (and I call it that because that is what it is today - simply another denomination run by a business group for the marketing of it's products, rather than an honest 'Recovery' of the Lords or even a simple 'Local' church of believers who hold only to a common faith in Christ) - no, I've mentioned it, but I have not dwelt on it. The Lord is faithful. I have carried on with Him, lead by His grace and mercy - so why should I look back?

"This woman followed me out to my truck," my brother goes on to say. "She asked if I was a believer, and when I told her I was she was so happy. She was an older lady, very sweet...." He asked me if I knew her (from his description, perhaps), he asked me about the RcV, if it was something 'I would read'. He asked me about this group, as he never had before...

I have returned to write because I genuinely feel concern for this brother. If he comes here and reads this, then I pray he knows my heart in this. By his own testimony, this brother has been seeking. He is disenfranchised with the, I think he would call it, lack of genuine zeal and repentance before Almighty God. This brother watches men like Paul Washer and listens to the likes of Adrian Rogers - reads from books by men like Dave Wilkerson.... He longs to see the Church of Jesus Christ become what we know it one day will - when finally our Beloved comes for us. This is exactly the kind of saint LSM seeks.

Those who are dissatisfied.
Those who want something more spiritual.
Those who want to be "all in"

But what does LSM offer such as these?

Fellowship? Yes, but based on Christ AND Lees doctrine. Or perhaps THROUGH Lees doctrine.
Separation from the World? Yes, but also from other believers (the Body of Christ).

A chance to be "all in" without years of seminary or time in a foreign mission field? Yes, but "all in" an organization that encourages it's members not to go out and preach the "low gospel" which Christ commanded and commissioned us to preach - but rather to preach "another gospel" - and to seek genuine believrrs and turn them against their local bodies by presenting them with a false or doctored image of your own.

Oh Lord Jesus, open eyes and hearts to the Truth, Lord. I know too well that you cannot go to Living Streams website, read their "Statement of Faith", and think you've got all of it. Wha is preached to new comers is mosr especially editted - is it not? I seem to recall hearing something to that effect, but whether in Anaheim or Winnipeg, I cannot rightly recall.

I wanted to come back to say I was wrong. Brothers and Sisters, you do have a purpose here. You bring to light things hidden in darkness, and for that, I am grateful. Continue to speak the truth - and always in love.

Yours in Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

Cal · 10-08-2012, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

I wanted to come back to say I was wrong. Brothers and Sisters, you do have a purpose here. You bring to light things hidden in darkness, and for that, I am grateful. Continue to speak the truth - and always in love.

Thank you, brother. Your encouragement is appreciated. Blessings to you.

awareness · 10-08-2012, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Thank you, brother. Your encouragement is appreciated. Blessings to you.

Amen to that. NeitherFirstnorLast, just be honest with God and with your self ... and all will be well ...

countmeworthy · 10-09-2012, 09:34 PM

Hello everyone..

I am popping in because I received a pm from someone here on the very day I had erie flashbacks today of the adulation of Witness Lee.

A close friend called me last night to tell me she was having the Mormon missionaries return to her house today. She had been taken off guard by them yesterday. They can be very persistent as we all know. I have had many encounters with Mormons and thus far I have not met one who has a relationship with the "Living WORD of God"---Jesus Christ.

I also know that the bible they use for reference purposes is the KJ. So off I went today to give my friend spiritual and moral support.

They did not know I was going to be there with the SWORD of the SPIRIT. The Mormon missionaries also brought an older married couple. The target was my friend who is born again and growing in Christ. She is solid but knew nothing of Mormonism.

Here is where it gets Erie: They could not stop talking about Joseph Smith. I was reminded of how frustrated I was becoming in my last couple of years in the LC, with everyone talking about Brother Lee. It still drives me nuts when I hear people talk about Lee's greatness.

They also kept talking about the book of Mormon. This reminded me of "bibles for America" RCV with the emphasis on Lee's footnotes.

After they left, my friend said to me "Joseph Smith is their religion.

We had a very pleasant time and there was no strife although the poor guys had to be frustrated because I stumped them over and over.

Their goal was to introduce Joseph Smith to us. My goal was to introduce the Lord Jesus to them!! Whenever I could I planted the SEED of Love, Truth and Life.

Blessings to all!

Shalom.

Carol G

Indiana · 10-10-2012, 03:58 AM

Thanks for this word and warning and mostly for joining in with the Mormons to speak the truth in their presence. I met with Mormon teachers in 2010. I appreciated their persons, their character, in handling difficult questions; we actually liked and enjoyed one another. It was a real contrast to my experience with the blended brothers who have not yet been able to impress with human civility when challenged in the light of truth.

07-26-2011, 04:26 PM	#1
NeitherFirstnorLast Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 348	A Final Message Oh Lord, I want to speak something here that is very likely going to offend some members. While I do not wish to offend, neither can I be responsible for how what I feel I need to share will be received. You told me that Father, and I will be faithful to You. I don't want anyone to think I am 'coming after them' - that's never been my intent; and while I'm certain many Corinthians felt the same about Paul's first letter to them - yet he (Paul) never regretted offering them the Truth in Love. After all, did Christ not say: "Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets" Luke 6:26 Let me start by saying that I value you all, and have appreciated the fellowship I have received these past eight months. Over the course of these months I have learned many things - but in truth, I haven't grown in my faith or my walk with God because of anything I've read here: and that, I believe, is equally applicable to my time in the so-called Local Church. Brothers and sisters, it seems to me that for those of us who come here who are no longer members of LSM, there ought to be agreement that we made it out of that system for a reason. We may have different reasons for leaving (or being removed from fellowship, if that is the case), but regardless of what the particularities of those reasons are, we ought to be in agreement that we are in a better place now than we were then. If we don't feel that way, then surely we ought to follow our conscience and make whatever concessions we must in order to be 'restored to fellowship' with LSM. We - and by “we” I don't mean myself and anyone else in my life outside of this Forum - I mean us: those of us who come to this website: we have spent time going through the sordid details that fill the unpublished annals of LSM history. We have broken through the false teachings of the man who called himself the Minister of the Age, and agreed, have we not? - that this man and his ministry was WRONG. Seeing how wrong LSM was should put us on a path to righteousness – back to the narrow way to and through Christ Jesus our Lord, but I do not see that happening here: and I don’t believe that any current members of LSM who come here will see it either. This place has become an infirmary for the wounded, but one without a Physician. A kind of counselling centre without the Wise Counsellor Himself. Friends, do you not see we need to “look intently at the perfect law that gives freedom” James 1:25, for “His Word will not return to Him void” Isaiah 55:11. Where is the preaching of that precious Word here? No friends, too much time is spent here re-living the past, that there can be no Living in Full, as Christ promised us (‘I have come that you might have Life in Full, and have it more abundantly!’) John 10:10. Friends, we reap what we sow… and too much of what is sown here is pain. Pain, heart-ache, regret, anger, despair… but no hope, no truth, and no life. Our eyes are turned inward, not upward. Seeing that Lee was wrong has not lead all of us to see that we too were wrong. For some it has become a pick-and-choose of Lee’s theology, without the realization that the entire ministry was built upon false pretences and is therefore corrupt. Lee taught that learning his interpretation was our highest call. Eat, drink, enjoy Christ – breathe deeply the pneumatic Christ and sing a hymn of Lee’s about what Godmen we are to become… for He came to serve us, didn’t He? How could Lee not see that Christ came to serve us to give us an example while He was among us… and not to serve us throughout the ages. Christ is God in the flesh – and while He came as the meek lamb over 2,000 years ago, the time draws nigh when He will come again in Glory – and I think we gravely underestimate the lateness of the hour. “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’, and not DO what I say?” He asked (Luke 6:46). Are not those who come to hear His Word and do them likened unto a man who digs a deep foundation to build his house upon a Rock. Built on that rock so that even when the storms come – as they inevitably do, they cannot shake a house on so firm a foundation. Have you been shaken my friends? Where then did you build your house? In whom did you trust? When the night is dark and you find yourself in the valley of the shadow of death. What do you fear? The Lord is with you. Have you not heard that you are to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?” Philippians 2:12. Have you considered what that means? You went through what you did for a purpose – and Praise the Lord He called you out of that… now TRUST HIM. FOLLOW HIM. Who is it that came to raise the dead? Who gave sight to the blind and caused the lame to walk? Who healed the leper and embraced him? It was our Christ, our King who did this. Do you not know enough to seek Him for the healing you now need? Have you become so blinded by anger, resentment, and self-pity that you have forgotten Him? If you want to walk, friends, then take up your mat and walk! Why do you lie here where there are only the rest of the wounded, and no Physician to heal you? He loves you still, and is only waiting for you to turn to Him! Do you think the wisdom of this age ought to apply to your circumstance? Do you think that support groups, and psychologists, and self-help gurus and ‘getting it off your chest’ will get you back on the narrow way? That is foolishness, and that is the foolishness I’ve been hearing here lately. Friends, imagine you were alive in the age when Christ walked in the flesh. Imagine you were the Pharisee called Nicodemus. Here was a man who came to Christ seeking answers, answers that would tell him that where he thought he was right with God, in truth he was on the wrong side and needed to be born again. Leaving the Sanhedrin, abandoning his friends and the beliefs he'd been taught as a Pharisee, that must have been a tremendously difficult task for him (for he certainly didn’t do it... at least, not right away, if at all) but the Lord didn't give Nicodemus an easy out. He didn't say, 'listen.... you've learned a lot of good things too, in your time in the Sanhedrin. Take your time with this, it's going to be tough. Therapy might be the answer – perhaps a support group with fellow ex-Pharisees here.' No my friends, that's the worldly foolishness I’m talking about, and where it might work with psychological issues, it doesn't work with Spiritual ones. Christ's call was clear: 'Come out of her, My people.' Imagine the Jehovah's Witness who comes to cling to Christ’s rugged cross. Born into a Kingdom Hall, he learned their own New World Translation backwards and forwards... but suddenly, Christ gained him... and transformed, he realized that he no longer belonged in a Kingdom Hall. Imagine how tough that is. If anyone can imagine it, you can. The lifestyle and the teaching methods of JW's don't differ so much from LSM's. Now, could you, as a Christian, tell this former JW that 'you learned a lot of good things with the JW's, and since leaving is hard, then please continue to work through the pain and hurt - and try to sift out the good from the bad so that the abruptness of the change isn't so difficult for you?’ Imagine you were a Mormon, who is suddenly born again! You walked the streets in the white shirt and black tie, and vainly tried to gain followers for your movement rather than followers for Christ. You had learned a lot of good things from the Book of Mormon, and laying it down now is painful. It means you need to admit that you were wrong - that you followed the false prophet Joseph Smith - and lead people not to salvation but to damnation. Could any of us, as Christians, tell this former Mormon that he need not abandon the Book of Mormon? That he could reconcile the true Faith with a false one, and thereby escape the pain of leaving. Could we? Too close to home? Imagine you were a Hindu - a good man, even one like Gandhi. Have you ever read the Baghavad Gita? A beautiful book that teaches many intellectual 'truths'. Perhaps you would be okay with telling a Hindu who embraced Christ as his Saviour that he needn't abandon the intellectual wisdoms of this book in favour of the Truth and the Way? I hoped dear ones, that you couldn't. But that’s what you’re doing here. I have spent time outlining that according to Scripture, Lee was not just wrong - not JUST a misguided minister of another color, who erred on some points or with whom we might disagree on the finer points of doctrine - rather he, Lee, was something more: A False Apostle. A False Prophet. Scripture is clear, and I've quoted it many times: we are to turn from such False Apostles and leave their teaching. Matthew 7:15-23 (the Sermon on the Mount): "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." From 2nd Peter we read: "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them – bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping" and from 1st John: "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." Now, if you disagree that Lee was a False prophet, then I have nothing more to say to you here. It has been expounded long enough – the evidence which we’ve ALL contributed is absolutely overwhelming. If you don’t believe it, then perhaps you don’t really believe there is such a thing as a false prophet. Perhaps you don’t even really believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. If the only nourishment you got from God’s Word came from LSM, then perhaps that wouldn’t even be surprising. This is hard speaking – but so is our Lord: We are to stand to defend the Faith. Did He not say, “You think I came to bring peace? I tell you not peace, but the Sword.” Matthew 10:34 Saints, have you noticed the conspicuous absence of certain men here? Where is John Ingalls? Where is this brother who saw so much and could have revealed to us sooner the folly of the path we were on? Do you know where that Brother is? He’s out pursuing the Lord. He took up his mat, and he walked. Should we not do likewise? I will. Mike, in a recent post you said (and I paraphrase) that we can either stay here or we can leave and leave our ‘cave paintings’ behind us. That, brother, is the wiser of the two choices. Christian living is about living first – and that is something that LSM never taught. It is about faith IN ACTION – We are Saved b y Grace through Faith, it’s true – but True Faith produces work, and Faith without works is dead - and where here is the action, where are the works? Where in LSM was the action and the works? Have you heard that ‘God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong’ 1st Corinthians 1:27. I would rather be foolish for Christ than ‘wise’ in the Word as those in LSM and those who hold to their teachings believe they were. Consider Saints, ‘and a little child shall lead them.’… ‘of such is the Kingdom of Heaven made’. I pray for us all. I pray that we grow and that one day we really can be One as Christ and the Father are one. I pray His will be done, I pray that you choose to follow Him and take the healing He offers. I pray for those still in LSM, that eyes and ears be opened and hearts softened to the Truth. I pray, brothers and sisters, that you can finally move on too… I pray you do not forsake the physical and spiritual gathering together with fellow believers. I pray you do not despise ‘lesser’ learned members of the Body, and thereby miss their portion of grace. I pray you learn to hear the words of the saints who’ve come before us throughout the ages… for God is the same yesterday, today and forever . I pray that even as I was not the first to come here, neither will I be the last to leave – and that those who do leave do so to follow Him. Be overcomers. Your brother in Christ, Ray Krohn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDd7XvmvtOM

07-26-2011, 07:27 PM	#2
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Re: A Final Message Hear! Hear! The preacher preacheth to us. Sounds like the LRC, cuz we're all poor, poor, poor, Christians to him. But at least he cares about us ... us mindless doofuses. __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.

07-27-2011, 05:00 AM	#4
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,384	Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond... Well, there you have it. Someone said it in a different way. And maybe in a way that will get at the minds of those who think that it is safe to retain Lee while thinking through what of his might have been error. Paul said to reject certain kinds of teachers. Not to do the "separate the meat from the bones and feathers" thing. That doesn't always work. And that kind of exhortation presumes that we have everything we need to discern the difference. Maybe as a group we do. But as individuals we don't. And the smaller the group, the closer it is to being no more resourceful than one. That is the reason there are teachers. That is the reason they went to the Temple for the Apostles' teaching. That is the reason Timothy was left in Ephesus while they did not yet have sufficient resources of their own. It has been only about a day ago that I agreed with Ohio that it might be wise for him to retain Lee since he had nothing before. But given the permeating nature of Lee's errors, I might revise that sentiment now. He knows the core of the faith. He has been able to read for himself for many years, going all the way back to the time just before the Revelation training. (And I was there as well.) The better advice might be as follows. Don't intentionally retain Lee. If it is not something necessary at the moment or something you are looking into, don't so much retain it as just not consider it. Once it is forefront for whatever reason — sermon series, small group study, covered in some book you are reading — intentionally presume Lee was wrong. That does not mean intentionally presume the other source is right. But no matter how hard you try, the result will probably be no better than lowering Lee to one of two or more viable readings. Take in what you see, not what you were taught to see. Allow the competing interpretation(s) at least equal standing or consideration. How do you decide what to analyze in this manner? Anything where you find yourself questioning those fine Christians around you simply because it was not the way you learned it in the LRC. I'll be honest to admit that I have not always ended out in complete agreement with those fine Christians. (But neither have I found my way back to Lee in those situations.) But I realize that I can continue with them anyway. You really can be one with people you don't agree with 100 percent on all issues. Have a problem with there being a preacher, or even a team of preachers? Read the Word. It actually seems to indicate that there are those who should teach the rest of us. Think that means we are just too stupid? Remember that we all have an anointing and at some level we do know. Think Babylon was something to simply flee from back to Jerusalem (and is a type of Christianity v the LRC)? Discover that at least one of the significant figures in the rebuilding of Jerusalem went there for a while, then returned to serve the king of Persia. And it would seem that God was ordaining that it was time to scatter the Jews throughout the world as the start of the blessing of the Gentiles that would be fully realized when Jesus sent the disciples "into all the world." No special status for those who returned to Jerusalem and deficient status for those who did not. According to Paul, Lee did not qualify to be a teacher. He (Lee, not Paul) should be rejected as a source of truth. Why simply rejected? Because you really can't tell the meat from the bones. We have been conditioned to accept Lee's teachings as meat and everything else as bones. We were taught that this was the Spirit. You can't even rely on what you simply think is your sense of the Spirit. The Spirit may instead lead you to take the rowboat or the helicopter with a well-educated preacher rowing/flying rather than just remain on the roof while the waters rise around you waiting for that direct, "I can sense it directly from God" kind of speaking. If we just need the sense of the Spirit, then we don't really even need each other. And Christianity will truly become the chaos and anarchy of churches of one. __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

10-07-2012, 05:37 PM	#9
NeitherFirstnorLast Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 348	There is no such thing as coincidence "So I say to her, 'What version of the Bible do you read?' And she says: "The Recovery version." It is Wednesday evening, and I've just come home from Bible study with my wife. The voice on the phone, that greeted me with this odd snippet of conversation, is that of a dear friend and brother in Christ - the very one, in fact, with whom I'd first met for Bible Study here in Three Hills, Alberta. This brother knows my testimony, I've shared with him the very things I've shared here with you all - and then some. He has heard of the RcV... I brought mine to his house a number of times, and carried it to our Sunday worship services for a number of months, before finally setting it on our bookshelf to start fresh with a new wide-margin NASB. While I have mentioned our time in the LSM church (and I call it that because that is what it is today - simply another denomination run by a business group for the marketing of it's products, rather than an honest 'Recovery' of the Lords or even a simple 'Local' church of believers who hold only to a common faith in Christ) - no, I've mentioned it, but I have not dwelt on it. The Lord is faithful. I have carried on with Him, lead by His grace and mercy - so why should I look back? "This woman followed me out to my truck," my brother goes on to say. "She asked if I was a believer, and when I told her I was she was so happy. She was an older lady, very sweet...." He asked me if I knew her (from his description, perhaps), he asked me about the RcV, if it was something 'I would read'. He asked me about this group, as he never had before... I have returned to write because I genuinely feel concern for this brother. If he comes here and reads this, then I pray he knows my heart in this. By his own testimony, this brother has been seeking. He is disenfranchised with the, I think he would call it, lack of genuine zeal and repentance before Almighty God. This brother watches men like Paul Washer and listens to the likes of Adrian Rogers - reads from books by men like Dave Wilkerson.... He longs to see the Church of Jesus Christ become what we know it one day will - when finally our Beloved comes for us. This is exactly the kind of saint LSM seeks. Those who are dissatisfied. Those who want something more spiritual. Those who want to be "all in" But what does LSM offer such as these? Fellowship? Yes, but based on Christ AND Lees doctrine. Or perhaps THROUGH Lees doctrine. Separation from the World? Yes, but also from other believers (the Body of Christ). A chance to be "all in" without years of seminary or time in a foreign mission field? Yes, but "all in" an organization that encourages it's members not to go out and preach the "low gospel" which Christ commanded and commissioned us to preach - but rather to preach "another gospel" - and to seek genuine believrrs and turn them against their local bodies by presenting them with a false or doctored image of your own. Oh Lord Jesus, open eyes and hearts to the Truth, Lord. I know too well that you cannot go to Living Streams website, read their "Statement of Faith", and think you've got all of it. Wha is preached to new comers is mosr especially editted - is it not? I seem to recall hearing something to that effect, but whether in Anaheim or Winnipeg, I cannot rightly recall. I wanted to come back to say I was wrong. Brothers and Sisters, you do have a purpose here. You bring to light things hidden in darkness, and for that, I am grateful. Continue to speak the truth - and always in love. Yours in Christ, NeitherFirstnorLast Last edited by Cal; 10-08-2012 at 07:02 AM.

10-09-2012, 09:34 PM	#12
countmeworthy Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: in Spirit & in Truth Posts: 1,379	Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond... Hello everyone.. I am popping in because I received a pm from someone here on the very day I had erie flashbacks today of the adulation of Witness Lee. A close friend called me last night to tell me she was having the Mormon missionaries return to her house today. She had been taken off guard by them yesterday. They can be very persistent as we all know. I have had many encounters with Mormons and thus far I have not met one who has a relationship with the "Living WORD of God"---Jesus Christ. I also know that the bible they use for reference purposes is the KJ. So off I went today to give my friend spiritual and moral support. They did not know I was going to be there with the SWORD of the SPIRIT. The Mormon missionaries also brought an older married couple. The target was my friend who is born again and growing in Christ. She is solid but knew nothing of Mormonism. Here is where it gets Erie: They could not stop talking about Joseph Smith. I was reminded of how frustrated I was becoming in my last couple of years in the LC, with everyone talking about Brother Lee. It still drives me nuts when I hear people talk about Lee's greatness. They also kept talking about the book of Mormon. This reminded me of "bibles for America" RCV with the emphasis on Lee's footnotes. After they left, my friend said to me "Joseph Smith is their religion. We had a very pleasant time and there was no strife although the poor guys had to be frustrated because I stumped them over and over. Their goal was to introduce Joseph Smith to us. My goal was to introduce the Lord Jesus to them!! Whenever I could I planted the SEED of Love, Truth and Life. Blessings to all! Shalom. Carol G __________________ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be *accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,* and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36)

10-10-2012, 03:58 AM	#13
Indiana Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 718	Re: challenged in the light of truth Thanks for this word and warning and mostly for joining in with the Mormons to speak the truth in their presence. I met with Mormon teachers in 2010. I appreciated their persons, their character, in handling difficult questions; we actually liked and enjoyed one another. It was a real contrast to my experience with the blended brothers who have not yet been able to impress with human civility when challenged in the light of truth.