The Thread of Gold - Jane Carole Anderson

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by bookworm

Post #9 by Terry quotes from this book and asks a general question, "What is the problem with encouraging ones to talk about their problems?" As one who has read The Thread of Gold, I see where Terry is coming from. His question is in light of Jane Anderson getting into trouble because (as is described on pages 161-162 of the book) she and an elder's wife were realizing the benefit of helping one another and praying for one another regarding problems/weaknesses. However, Ray Graver got upset when the discussion of opening up and getting help exposed that another elder (of all people---an all-knowing elder who is supposed always to have it altogether and have all the answers) was in need of help.

This is part of what triggered Benson Phillips' accusing Jane of being part of a "sisters' rebellion" in the Texas churches. This is what is described in The Thread of Gold.

What upset Ray? Was it because a sister helped an elder? Would he had been as upset if it had come from John? Was it because an elder didn't have it together?

This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.
James 1:19-20

As for what happened to Jane, was it the result of this event or was it the result of multiple events like it?
I have more to say, but I must postpone until later.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Terry

As for what happened to Jane, was it the result of this event or was it the result of multiple events like it?
I have more to say, but I must postpone until later.

May not be the case, but take it into consideration. Marriage is difficult enough. In marriage two individuals becoming a couple. It's difficult enough adapting from being an individual to one half of a couple. Probably happened on a larger scale in the local churches during the 1970's compared to the last 20 years, that is third party involvment of match-making or match-breaking. Before I proceed further, it would help if more seasoned brothers and sisters (Ohio, UntoHim, Bookworm, etc) could confirm or deny my assertion.

During the 1970's there were couples paired up not according to their preferences, but according to preferences of leading brothers and leading sisters. How strong were these marriages going to be? They could very well be soulmates or they could be two individuals in a marriage who had very little in common. When you have very little in your soul bonding the marriage, for some couples it could had been just the local church enviornment keeping the marriage intact. For some couples the sister could very well be 100% committed to the marriage, but for the brother the marriage took a backseat to the ministry. This could be some of the issues married couples endured. For example the wife could get into an argument with her husband basically saying she wants the humanity of her husband and not an overly spiritual brother. Her husband doesn't take her words to heart and they leave for the meeting with the problem unresolved. When they arrive at the meeting, it's as the on/off switch is turned on. Everything is grand and he doesn't have a problem, praising and giving God the glory. However the wife sits quietly, doesn't make an issue, but inside she isn't fooled by his charade. I'm not saying this did happen, only asserting it could have happened.

This could be problems referenced in The Thread of Gold pages 161-162. Sisters speaking about expecting more from their husband, offended brothers such as Benson and Ray. This in addition to Ray witnessing a co-elder breakdown in front of him. I believe most of us would have been moved with compassion had we witnessed such an event. Certainly not a matter to be offended about.
Ironically what happened in that couples apartment on that night in 1977 (?) would not be condemned in anything I have experienced. It is an example of an elder being shepherded by non-elders. It is needed for a home meeting to become vital.
My point is if this is what Jane was condemned for and Benson bringing it back up during the 2005 Winter training, had the local church saints really known what Jane was disciplined for, their reaction might be exasperation.

[bookworm]

When Jane and the elder's wife in Houston in the late 1970s started to speak about helping one another through difficult times evidently this was perceived as a threat to the "real purpose" of the LC—especially when it brought to light a needy elder.

A result of the Local Church becoming so very exclusive (special, THE building of THE Church), was the refusal of the leaders being open to anything of "poor Christianity" including Biblical marriage counseling.

My own experience was that after many years of marriage when I went to an elder and his wife for help at a very difficult time in my marriage the advice I was given was to forgive my husband (who was not attending the meetings at the time) and do what I could to get him back into the meetings. When I specifically asked about counseling for us, I was told that the answer was "getting back into the meetings." This was in the early 1980s in Texas. So by that time the mindset for sure was the only answer is the LC and the meetings. Obviously the Local Church had no "marriage counseling service group" or such. There was no provision for giving guidance (even scripturally based) to couples through difficult times.

Clearly the Local Church had only one focus: God's eternal purpose for building the Church. The mindset was very strong that we were to "get out of our minds and turn to our spirits" and be in the meetings and all would be taken care of; the army had to set the mind on the spirit and carry on. There was no consideration of God's purpose and design for marriage despite all the talk in the LC about Christ and the Church as His bridegroom.

This form of "brainwashing" does nothing to promote love for one another in the body of Christ and it does nothing to encourage a married man and woman to love and value each other and love and value the children they are blessed with.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bookworm

This form of "brainwashing" does nothing to promote love for one another in the body of Christ and it does nothing to encourage a married man and woman to love and value each other and love and value the children they are blessed with.

There have been times over the years when well-meaning brothers in the elders trainings have publicly asked for help with certain struggling saints. The answer always defaulted to the meetings and the ministry. I also believe that LC leaders would rather have their "problem-cases" disappear from the scenes, since they expose to all just how failed their programs really have become. Nothing worse than having your audience haunted by those "broken promises" staring them in the face every meeting.

Didn't Thankful witness a sister, whom she loved, crying in the back of the meeting hall, knowing that she could not embrace Thankful, who was being "disciplined?" That's not the kind of situation you want to continue. "Houston, we have a problem!" I'm sure more than a few brothers were happy to see that family move to OK, OK.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There have been times over the years when well-meaning brothers in the elders trainings have publicly asked for help with certain struggling saints. The answer always defaulted to the meetings and the ministry. I also believe that LC leaders would rather have their "problem-cases" disappear from the scenes, since they expose to all just how failed their programs really have become. Nothing worse than having your audience haunted by those "broken promises" staring them in the face every meeting.

If he would, PriestlyScribe might have something to share, some light to share based on experiences in his locality.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by bookworm

When Jane and the elder's wife in Houston in the late 1970s started to speak about helping one another through difficult times evidently this was perceived as a threat to the "real purpose" of the LC—especially when it brought to light a needy elder.

My own experience was that after many years of marriage when I went to an elder and his wife for help at a very difficult time in my marriage the advice I was given was to forgive my husband (who was not attending the meetings at the time) and do what I could to get him back into the meetings. When I specifically asked about counseling for us, I was told that the answer was "getting back into the meetings." This was in the early 1980s in Texas. So by that time the mindset for sure was the only answer is the LC and the meetings. Obviously the Local Church had no "marriage counseling service group" or such. There was no provision for giving guidance (even scripturally based) to couples through difficult times.

The threat to the real purpose is putting the individual before the collective (brother Lee's ministry). To do so is to shift gears from focusing on the ministry and the work, to praying for and shepherding a fellows member of the Body.

Ironically after all that's been said about marriages and dealing with marital conflict, verbally the brothers point to going to the meetings. How about these same brothers? When their marriages are in conflict or even experienced divorce, will they heed the same mantra of going to the meetings and the meetings will take care of their marriage? They know just as you've pointed out, the ministry doesn't touch the marriage. Which is why brothers with troubled marriages may need to reach out to other publications or even consider professional marriage counseling.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Terry

...Ironically after all that's been said about marriages and dealing with marital conflict, verbally the brothers point to going to the meetings.

Terry, on top of the natural fallen tendency in men [a man, I am one, so I know] to be clueless about the condition of his own marriage, there is that self centered male knee-jerk reaction to flee confrontation from the wife. What better environment for a clueless husband to find himself in than a church culture which places way more emphasis on corporate meeting performance/attendance than on the creation of truly radiant wives? 13A. Godly Men Have Radiant Wives Much easier to duck and cover, then run off to a church meeting in which to further God's Economy - than face the music and through consistent loving servant leadership, let God show us how to solve problems at the foundation level of the church - the home life.

Originally Posted by Terry

How about these same brothers? When their marriages are in conflict or even experienced divorce, will they heed the same mantra of going to the meetings and the meetings will take care of their marriage? They know just as you've pointed out, the ministry doesn't touch the marriage. Which is why brothers with troubled marriages may need to reach out to other publications or even consider professional marriage counseling.

Actually Terry, the ministry of Witness Lee did touch the importance of marriage life - here is but one example:

MARRIED LIFE, FAMILY LIFE, AND THE CHURCH LIFE
"First we need to build up the proper married life and family life, and then we shall be able to build up the church life. If a brother does not know how to build up a pleasant married life at home and an excellent family life with his children, it will be very difficult for him to share in building up the church. When he comes together with others for the church service, he may exercise politeness. However, he may not be polite to his wife or children. We may be polite to the brothers and sisters in the church, but be very impolite to our husband or wife or to our children."
"Our home life is where we are exposed the most. Do not think that simply because a certain brother is nice, kind, and polite with the saints in the church he is necessarily that way at home. If you want to know him, you need to see how he lives with his wife and children. Oh, how much we need forbearance in our married life and family life that we may build up the proper church life!"
Witness Lee - Life-study of Philippians, Chapter 59, Section 3, LSM

But Terry, sorry to say, few men had an ear to hear that, neither was it easy to find good examples of how to be married according to the teaching of the Bible - and especially so, as you pointed out, among the LC's leadership ranks.

To show by contrast how muddied the waters became under the Blended's Administration, here is Chuck Debelak's crystal clear teaching on proper family priorities in the church life - there are four audio links there:
The Truth about Parenting 02 03 04

P.S.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Terry, on top of the natural fallen tendency in men [a man, I am one, so I know] to be clueless about the condition of his own marriage, there is that self centered male knee-jerk reaction to flee confrontation from the wife. What better environment for a clueless husband to find himself in than a church culture which places way more emphasis on corporate meeting performance/attendance than on the creation of truly radiant wives?

PriestlyScribe, just as we discussed on the phone yesterday, brothers are caught in a tug of war where no one will be completely satisfied.
If a brother goes to the bi-annual training an leaves his wife and children at home, his wife will think and maybe say to her husband he loves the ministry more than the family.
If a brother chooses to stay home and take care of his family instead of attending bi-annual trainings, the brother may be viewed as not absolute for the ministry and maybe his own standing in the local assembly being examined.
This is how I perceived John from reading the Thread of Gold and through his posts on this thread. Here's a brother who could have been brought into fellowship as a responsible brother, but family was John's priority.

[bookworm]

I listened to parts of these four audio tapes PriestlyScribe posted on his post # 74 and note these statements (in blue):


Your children are to have a unique, personal relationship with God. A voice they have to recognize. Help them know the voice of the Lord at the Lord's time.

When it comes to the Lord's perfecting in my life, there are little things but that is the focus of the entire Christian life, God perfecting us by the Holy Spirit inside of us. When we live that way we are very broad to let other people live that way. This is not according to some high peak, but Christ living inside of us. You can live a passive church life but you cannot live a passive Christian life because every day the Lord is speaking inside of you. We need to raise our children this way.

Someone asked him (Chuck D.) for direction as to what to do, and he pointed that person to the Lord, to seek the Lord. Go back to the Lord again and again. He said that when you shepherd your children do the same. Give them the same latitude. If the Lord is leading you not to go to the meeting, ask Him again. The same God who led you to know life and to hear His voice is the same God who can lead them. Now you can be gentle and shepherd your children. You have to be gentle and kind and patient. This is a big job and the Lord has to train us for such. We should allow ourselves to be perfected.

Pray that your children would be drawn to the Lord powerfully. Whether they are in the church or not in the church, I really don't care, but they must give their whole life to you. You are the meaning of life. Without you our life means nothing. We are not here to be in the church, for some cause; if we are here we are here because the living God told us to be here. I am not here to be in the church; I am here because the living God told me to be here. We want them to have a deep conviction to follow the Lord.

I wonder when it was Chuck D. spoke these words and whether he would be heard if he were to appeal to the Local Church leadership in this way regarding their shepherding the sheep…

What gentleness and kindness and patience was shown to the weeping elder who was touched (p. 162 of The Thread of Gold) and showed a moment of need and weakness? What gentleness and kindness and patience was shown to Jane and other sisters as they were seeking the Lord and desiring to hear His voice?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

To show by contrast how muddied the waters became under the Blended's Administration, here is Chuck Debelak's crystal clear teaching on proper family priorities in the church life - there are four audio links there:
The Truth about Parenting 02 03 04

P.S.

PriestlyScribe, these links have proven to be useful. In our home meeting on Saturday night, the topic of what the Bible has to say about families was brought up. The "man of death" brought up these messages by Chuck Debelak. May these messages provide help to the inquiring sister and her family in our home meeting.