The Thread of Gold - Jane Carole Anderson

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

Cross references for Hebrews 13:17 are

1 Corinthians 16:16
that you also be in subjection to such men and to everyone who helps in the work and labors.

Hebrews 13:7
Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.

Hebrews 13:24
Greet all of your leaders and all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.

I see from your examples your speaking on jurisdiction and limitations of the jurisidiction.
For example a policeman only has jurisdiction over the area he's designated to serve and cannot exceed that area. For example an uncle of mine once served law enforcement in Washington County, Oregon. His jurisdiction was limited to the county.

Same principal is in effect to elders of assemblies. Specifically the incident you refer to is a illustration of an elder overstepping his jurisdiction as an elder. Once Benson moved to Dallas to serve, he was no longer an elder for the Church in Houston.
Another example is the assembly I currently meet with. Elders from ERCC would not be recognized as being elders in the nearest local church.

Yes, but that doesn't offer much of a safeguard. RG could have easily been the hit man at the urging of BP and who is to say who RG can fellowship with.

I think the biggest case of the error in the LRC is that Elders excommunicate saints, and then announce to the church that someone has been excommunicated without much if any explanation. Instead, if they had to "tell it to the church" as a kind of hearing and the person being excommunicated also got to share their side before the church decided I think that would have eliminated the abuses we saw by WL because he could never have made it fly.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think the biggest case of the error in the LRC is that Elders excommunicate saints, and then announce to the church that someone has been excommunicated without much if any explanation. Instead, if they had to "tell it to the church" as a kind of hearing and the person being excommunicated also got to share their side before the church decided I think that would have eliminated the abuses we saw by WL because he could never have made it fly.

What I've heard and seen from current and former elders is a need to be a buffer between saints and problems. That is a key error.
Concept I have problems are discussed and decided upon in elders meetings. Some cases there may not be any room for discussion, but a token approval.
The general brother and sister may not even know or have a say in resolving the problem.
Think of it like this the elders absorb all the turbulence and for the most part the saints are kept peaceful and positive.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Terry

What I've heard and seen from current and former elders is a need to be a buffer between saints and problems. That is a key error.
Concept I have problems are discussed and decided upon in elders meetings. Some cases there may not be any room for discussion, but a token approval.
The general brother and sister may not even know or have a say in resolving the problem.
Think of it like this the elders absorb all the turbulence and for the most part the saints are kept peaceful and positive.

By which you mean, comfortably numb?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

By which you mean, comfortably numb?

It's kind of like how the government continually lies to us so that we don't "panic."

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's kind of like how the government continually lies to us so that we don't "panic."

Well in that case they better hurry up and bail out the NFL...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, but that doesn't offer much of a safeguard. RG could have easily been the hit man at the urging of BP and who is to say who RG can fellowship with.

I think the biggest case of the error in the LRC is that Elders excommunicate saints, and then announce to the church that someone has been excommunicated without much if any explanation. Instead, if they had to "tell it to the church" as a kind of hearing and the person being excommunicated also got to share their side before the church decided I think that would have eliminated the abuses we saw by WL because he could never have made it fly.

ZNP, "technically ..." it was not "elders excommunicating saints," at least with Ingalls et. al. of old, and TC et. al. recently. WL, BP and the BB's consider themselves as both "senior workers" and "deputy authorities." For WL as the most "senior worker" to quarantine John Ingalls, another worker under his direction, is a matter of the "work," which is "technically" not a church matter. Thus, many viewed the quarantine of TC as illegitimate because he was a more senior worker than any of the BB's.

Hence BP, RK and the other BB's considered themselves as WL's successors, the so-called "deputy authority" of the body of Christ. In that capacity they quarantined TC, NigelT, and DYL. Then they made the announcement, not to the "church" which TC belonged to, but to the "body," which to them meant all the loyal LC's subscribing to LSM's directives.

Instead of "telling it to the church," they called representatives of all the churches, and announced the decision to them. This was done by WL in SoCal for Ingalls, So, Mellon, and Fung, and is recorded in the "Fermentation ..." For TC, the BB's gathered all the representative leaders in Whistler. The result was the 28 booklet "attack pack," and the various websites.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ZNP, "technically ..." it was not "elders excommunicating saints," at least with Ingalls et. al. of old, and TC et. al. recently. WL, BP and the BB's consider themselves as both "senior workers" and "deputy authorities." For WL as the most "senior worker" to quarantine John Ingalls, another worker under his direction, is a matter of the "work," which is "technically" not a church matter. Thus, many viewed the quarantine of TC as illegitimate because he was a more senior worker than any of the BB's.

Hence BP, RK and the other BB's considered themselves as WL's successors, the so-called "deputy authority" of the body of Christ. In that capacity they quarantined TC, NigelT, and DYL. Then they made the announcement, not to the "church" which TC belonged to, but to the "body," which to them meant all the loyal LC's subscribing to LSM's directives.

It's not how I read the Bible. We are all part of the church. Whether you choose to meet, choose not to meet, or where you choose to meet, you and I are still part of the church. A church matter is also a Body matter.

1 Corinthians 12: 12-26
12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. 19 If they were all one member, where would the body be? 20 But now there are many members, but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; 23 and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, 24 whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, 25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

Bringing up John Ingalls name. I had an opportunity to meet him last summer. Appreciation of Witness Lee's ministry was expressed. The quarantine which occurred took place after John left. The quarantines serve as damage control. As for Titus and his co-workers, from what I've read Titus is a difficult brother to work with and he may have personality traits that rub people the wrong way. We all have peculiar traits and defects, but that by no means warrants quarantines.
An trend ZNP may have referred to is control. Brothers leading Living Stream want the churches thinking as they do. Which in turn requires brothers thinking as they do leading the churches. There is too much risk to invest decision making to the church. Any given local church may not have the same feeling LSM leading brothers have.
What would it do if a local church put on the brakes with the ministry because there's a need to care for the families, to care for the marriages, to care for the single brothers, and sisters. It's good if brothers and sisters want to get into the ministry, but if there's a problem in our soul, the ministry is not going to shepherd the soul. That requires one another. Back to this thread,

When Dan began to speak, he announced that there was a “sisters’ rebellion” in the Texas churches and that the sister leading this rebellion was in the Houston church. According to him, this sister had committed serious offenses against the church. She and others with her had encouraged people to open up and talk about their problems. According to Dan, this was the same as encouraging people to vomit.

In case you don't know Dan Williams from the Thread of Gold is Benson Phillips. As I said earlier in this thread Benson considered it an offense to encourage and talk about problems. Souls of the saints cannot be shepherded unless problems are openly talked about.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

An trend ZNP may have referred to is control. Brothers leading Living Stream want the churches thinking as they do. Which in turn requires brothers thinking as they do leading the churches. There is too much risk to invest decision making to the church. Any given local church may not have the same feeling LSM leading brothers have.
What would it do if a local church put on the brakes with the ministry because there's a need to care for the families, to care for the marriages, to care for the single brothers, and sisters. It's good if brothers and sisters want to get into the ministry, but if there's a problem in our soul, the ministry is not going to shepherd the soul. That requires one another.

This shorts out the feedback loop. A genuine ministry meets the needs of the saints and the church. By requiring the church to cede to the wishes of the ministry you stifle any feedback. A healthy response would be for a church to put on the brakes of the ministry because they need to care for the families. In response, the ministry would see if they could help meet this need. Success or failure would be determined by the church, rather than a dictate by the ministry that "here, this book solves your problem".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ZNP, "technically ..." it was not "elders excommunicating saints," at least with Ingalls et. al. of old, and TC et. al. recently. WL, BP and the BB's consider themselves as both "senior workers" and "deputy authorities." For WL as the most "senior worker" to quarantine John Ingalls, another worker under his direction, is a matter of the "work," which is "technically" not a church matter. Thus, many viewed the quarantine of TC as illegitimate because he was a more senior worker than any of the BB's.

Hence BP, RK and the other BB's considered themselves as WL's successors, the so-called "deputy authority" of the body of Christ. In that capacity they quarantined TC, NigelT, and DYL. Then they made the announcement, not to the "church" which TC belonged to, but to the "body," which to them meant all the loyal LC's subscribing to LSM's directives.

Instead of "telling it to the church," they called representatives of all the churches, and announced the decision to them. This was done by WL in SoCal for Ingalls, So, Mellon, and Fung, and is recorded in the "Fermentation ..." For TC, the BB's gathered all the representative leaders in Whistler. The result was the 28 booklet "attack pack," and the various websites.

Please note that I do not agree with what I posted above. I was only providing an explanation for the way things happen in the LC's. I was there so I understand how they think, but I have long departed, so I also understand how they have erred. LC concepts about "the work" are seriously flawed, and have led to much damage.