“Can the Local Church Leadership Say, ‘We Were Wrong’?” (An Open Letter)

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

A little Texas history: When "ministry stations" ...

I don't understand this post?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don't understand this post?

After a number of failed migrations orchestrated by LSM, WL setup "ministry stations" throughout the country with designated speakers of his choosing assigned to bring his messages to these surrounding churches, some of which were quite small. This time corresponded to the "consolidations."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

After a number of failed migrations orchestrated by LSM, WL setup "ministry stations" throughout the country with designated speakers of his choosing assigned to bring his messages to these surrounding churches, some of which were quite small. This time corresponded to the "consolidations."

What does she mean that the meetings were mingled with the ministry meetings including the Lord's Table?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What does she mean that the meetings were mingled with the ministry meetings including the Lord's Table?

It means that the content and focus of the Table was the ministry of WL.

Sometimes, especially when listening to brothers like Ed Marks, I wondered if those Texas brothers had forgotten who their Lord and Savior was.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It means that the content and focus of the Table was the ministry of WL.

Sometimes, especially when listening to brothers like Ed Marks, I wondered if those Texas brothers had forgotten who their Lord and Savior was.

The Lord's table mtg in Houston was always a testimony mtg. Brothers like EM might use their testimony to read a footnote "that meant a lot to them" but we generally had more than 30 testimonies a night and EM and his Ilk might comprise 5 of those testimonies

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The Lord's table mtg in Houston was always a testimony mtg. Brothers like EM might use their testimony to read a footnote "that meant a lot to them" but we generally had more than 30 testimonies a night and EM and his Ilk might comprise 5 of those testimonies

I should let Thankful Jane comment on this, since I was not there.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I should let Thankful Jane comment on this, since I was not there.

How's that for timing?? I just saw your post after I finished mine.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don't understand this post?

Sorry for my lack of clarity in what I wrote, ZNP. The following sentence from my previous post seems to have introduced the confusion:

Eventually, all the meetings were "ministry" meetings, and the last church meeting to be mingled (pardon the word choice) with the ministry, was the Lord's Table.

I used the word “eventually” to refer to a long period of time. We were in Oklahoma City when they began to commandeer the Lord’s Table time for ministry teaching. That was the final straw for John. I explain this on page 235 of The Thread of Gold. The date for that was late 1980s, probably late 1986 or early 1987. Here are some quotes from that page:

Then in a church meeting, an elder announced that the time currently being used for such testimonies after the Lord’s Table meeting was going to be cut short in all future Lord’s Table meetings in order to add an additional Life-Study teaching meeting. We were told this was necessary because there was too much revelation being released by Brother Lee, “God’s oracle,” to be covered adequately in the other church meetings.

He further emphasized that the time left for testimonies would have to be really short. After the next Lord’s Table meeting, as the teaching began, John got up and walked out...

Hope this helps.

As for the timing of the appearance of the “ministry station” phenomenon, I had never thought of that being at the time of consolidations as Ohio said. We were never involved in a consolidation and only heard about them, so I'm foggy on their timing. I think that those who migrated to New Orleans later moved to Dallas. Dallas began around 1971, I think, but I'm not sure that the move away from New Orleans was considered as a consolidation. Maybe someone can put some dates on the consolidations.

John told me this morning that he wasn't positive, but he thought the “ministry station” idea (at least its introduction in Houston) was before the semi-annual trainings had started. I have always assumed that it came after those trainings started, but I’m not positive about that now. I am wondering if John might not be right about the "ministry station" timing being pre-trainings, because they called it a “ministry station” not a “Life-Study” meeting, which is how we typically referred to meetings that were used to repeat training messages. I think that Life Studies came into being at the time the semi-annual trainings were started, so this lends some credence to the fact that a meeting called a "minstry station" or "ministry meeting" was pre-training. Sorry for my thinking out loud here. I hope this doesn't introduce more confusion.

Thankful Jane

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

As for the timing of the appearance of the “ministry station” phenomenon, I had never thought of that being at the time of consolidations as Ohio said.

John told me this morning that he wasn't positive, but he thought the “ministry station” idea (at least its introduction in Houston) was before the semi-annual trainings had started.

Now I am not giving first hand accounts, but what I heard from others. Steve Isitt or Hope could do much better than I can.

Early 70's had numerous migrations. Some new churches apparently were struggling to survive. Jan '74 elders meeting. (Anyone remember where that post by Hope listed a number of dramatic controls which WL introduced?) One change was the appointment of designated brothers who would minister in certain key cities. I believe their messages were taken from the Genesis Life-Studies. This is also right about the time the semi-annual trainings began, and conferences in Anaheim on various topics ended.

I knew one brother well who had been in Milwaukee, WI (circa '73-'75). He had migrated there from Seattle, WA with a few others. Word came to them from LSM "via the fellowship" concerning consolidations. They were to migrate to a church with a "ministry station." He chose Cleveland where TC was, but could have chosen Chicago where Reetzke was, or some other designated location on LSM's list. He felt Milwaukee was fruitful and saw no reason to leave there, but the ones he was with wanted to go along with "the fellowship."

I do believe that these "ministry stations" were the first stage in America for WL to take over the contents of the teaching in all the LC's. As I entered the LC, Genesis LS messages were being taught in the Saturday night ministry meeting attended by all the Ohio LC's. Mansfield, which was quite far from Cleveland, had a little maxi-van to shuttle her people to Cleveland. Willoughby and Akron also attended.

Here Texas churches under BP took WL's directives to a "tee." They would teach WL's messages strictly verbatim, while TC more loosely followed the format. Visitors (actually spies) to the area actually would report our apparent "looseness" back to headquarters. I do believe it just killed TC to be a WL "tape recorder," so JS in Willoughby eventually took over that job.

I remember BP visiting Cleveland for a conference, probably post-Max, and listening to a particularly tedious message of his. (He really needed a drink of water.) The elder sitting next to me commented on how BP spoke almost word for word from the LS message of Hebrews. He implied that that was a great thing. That elder eventually left the TC LC's and joined the LSM LC's.

[Suannehill]

.... Mansfield, which was quite far from Cleveland, had a little maxi-van to shuttle her people to Cleveland...

Thank you all for all of the information...I was one who rode that van on Satuday night to Cleveland. We also traveled to Cleveland for the "Trainings".

I do remember being confused by what seemed to be going on behind the scenes. These postings have clarified and solidified many of my thoughts.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Suannehill

... Mansfield, which was quite far from Cleveland, had a little maxi-van to shuttle her people to Cleveland...

Thank you all for all of the information...I was one who rode that van on Saturday night to Cleveland. We also traveled to Cleveland for the "Trainings".

I do remember being confused by what seemed to be going on behind the scenes. These postings have clarified and solidified many of my thoughts.

Looking at your avatar pic, you haven't changed a bit.

[Ohio]

Found that post which listed the major changes which WL introduced at the Jan '74 elders' meeting ... I found this to be extremely helpful in my study of LC history.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...1&postcount=16

Originally Posted by Hope

The turn away from the vision WL had regarding the Practice of the Local Church Life began in January 1974 at the very first special elders and co-workers conference.

Thanks brothers for bringing up this thread. In the coming third chapter, I stress this event. Few of the saints realize or even know what an earthquake this meeting was:

An attempt to salvage the Day Star disaster,

National Local Church Credit Union, complete with a national organizational chart with LSM on top, (bet you never heard of that),

Consolidation of existing but not so critical churches,

Move to Anaheim and to the "young people cities,"

Max R. becomes WLs right hand man to direct the churches on behalf of WL,

The Launch of LSM and dissolving of "The Stream Ministry",

The official designation of the Approved speaker list,

The shift from local initiated meetings to Life study ministry and common direction from Anaheim,

The appointment of Max R. to travel to the churches to make adjustments on behalf of WL,

The shift from elders being shepherds to being good organizers and dynamic leaders,

The public put down and humiliation of senior brothers and co-workers begins,

etc. Much more to report!!

The effects were immediate but gradual. While I have no use for the cult books that came out later or the authors, I believe the Lord allowed it as a loud siren warning to us. The full effect of this falling away came about in 1986. By then it was too late. WL's shouting put downs of TC and other senior brothers in 1974 became the fermentation book, spitting on Lang's book and the 1989 Lee is great message.

WL had the concept that he needed to be in charge at least by 1977. He told John So and myself in Athens Greece that he was the thumb and other gifted brothers were fingers whose function depended on being related to him. (Now that was quite a conversation!!!)

May we all continue in His love and peace and abound in hope.

In Christ Jesus, "Hope" aka Don Rutledge

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Sorry for my lack of clarity in what I wrote, ZNP. The following sentence from my previous post seems to have introduced the confusion:

Eventually, all the meetings were "ministry" meetings, and the last church meeting to be mingled (pardon the word choice) with the ministry, was the Lord's Table.

I used the word “eventually” to refer to a long period of time. We were in Oklahoma City when they began to commandeer the Lord’s Table time for ministry teaching. That was the final straw for John. I explain this on page 235 of The Thread of Gold. The date for that was late 1980s, probably late 1986 or early 1987. Here are some quotes from that page:

Then in a church meeting, an elder announced that the time currently being used for such testimonies after the Lord’s Table meeting was going to be cut short in all future Lord’s Table meetings in order to add an additional Life-Study teaching meeting. We were told this was necessary because there was too much revelation being released by Brother Lee, “God’s oracle,” to be covered adequately in the other church meetings.

He further emphasized that the time left for testimonies would have to be really short. After the next Lord’s Table meeting, as the teaching began, John got up and walked out...

Hope this helps.

As for the timing of the appearance of the “ministry station” phenomenon, I had never thought of that being at the time of consolidations as Ohio said. We were never involved in a consolidation and only heard about them, so I'm foggy on their timing. I think that those who migrated to New Orleans later moved to Dallas. Dallas began around 1971, I think, but I'm not sure that the move away from New Orleans was considered as a consolidation. Maybe someone can put some dates on the consolidations.

John told me this morning that he wasn't positive, but he thought the “ministry station” idea (at least its introduction in Houston) was before the semi-annual trainings had started. I have always assumed that it came after those trainings started, but I’m not positive about that now. I am wondering if John might not be right about the "ministry station" timing being pre-trainings, because they called it a “ministry station” not a “Life-Study” meeting, which is how we typically referred to meetings that were used to repeat training messages. I think that Life Studies came into being at the time the semi-annual trainings were started, so this lends some credence to the fact that a meeting called a "minstry station" or "ministry meeting" was pre-training. Sorry for my thinking out loud here. I hope this doesn't introduce more confusion.

Thankful Jane

Thanks that clears up a lot. It would have been the last straw for me too, if that had happened where I was. I remember when I came back from Taiwan to NY I was very disappointed in the Lord's Table meeting. They would have the Lord's table during the morning meeting. There would be a short opportunity for some testimonies and then they would switch gears and share a message. So they basically combined the morning meeting with the Lord's table meeting. I figured it was due to the fact that commuting in NYC is very difficult and they didn't want saints to go home and then have to return again to the meeting hall.