“Can the Local Church Leadership Say, ‘We Were Wrong’?” (An Open Letter)

TLFisher · 05-08-2011, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John

The first case occurred in the late 60s and early 70s, but we didn’t learn of it until 1992. In 1992, Jane received a letter from a sister who had been abused by the Texas leadership. This sister wrote to Jane after receiving a copy of a letter we mailed to those who had started with us in Houston. Jane’s letter was sent because of Benson’s refusal to meet with us to try to rescue the marriage of an elder who had served with him. In the letter, we had described the abuse that had been exercised over the elder’s wife in 1977. The sister who wrote Jane explained that she had also been labeled as rebellious and negative.

John,
Case #1
It may be just my opinion, but in cases as this sister, Jane, among others, when these ones are set aside for being negative, leprous, etc. It's not a case of Titus 3:10. There are other reasons for it and whatever the reasons may be, it's as Hope said in one of his posts, fellowship flows downstream. As you well know John, it's not fellowship. It's an expectation to conform to Group Think. If you don't conform, you'll be out of the group. If you do conform to Group Think, it will be as taking fellowship.

Ohio · 05-09-2011, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

John,
Case #1
It may be just my opinion, but in cases as this sister, Jane, among others, when these ones are set aside for being negative, leprous, etc. It's not a case of Titus 3:10. There are other reasons for it and whatever the reasons may be, it's as Hope said in one of his posts, fellowship flows downstream. As you well know John, it's not fellowship. It's an expectation to conform to Group Think. If you don't conform, you'll be out of the group. If you do conform to Group Think, it will be as taking fellowship.

And another thing. I saw many brothers "dressed down" needlessly in the GLA, but never sisters.

OBW · 05-09-2011, 08:59 AM

Interesting that this topic should be "live" at this moment. Only yesterday my dad reminded me of the time back in 2006 that I had noted to him (and my mom who was still alive then) concerning Philip Lee's doings and the fall-out from that, noting that I had said something about them not having any idea about it. I spent just a few minutes to lay out the sequence of events, mainly in Anaheim, the involvement of BP and RG, among others in the ensuing turmoil, and the writing of the book of lies, FOTPR. He acknowledged that he had a copy of it. I made it clear that it was a fabrication designed to keep anyone who actually heard about the conflict from discovering what had really gone on.

The unfortunate thing, at least for now, is that my dad merely shook his head in disgust and noted something like "people really seem to do some evil things." I added that the mere writing of FOTPR, for me, put Lee into a category in which he should have been disqualified from ministry immediately (I made no comment about before that time). My dad made no protest.

But then he mentioned something about BM, who had been an elder in Houston, then Arlington and Irving, all while working for the LSM, only to be pushed out quietly for infidelity, later marrying another elder's wife. He knew this (not of the infidelity at the time), but not what had happened before BM left Irving. I had the opportunity to fill him in on the history based on the record in TOG and Hope's additional testimony concerning the handling of BM's expulsion. I think his eyes were opened just a little to the kind of manipulation that went on. He noted that he had once asked PD, another elder (I think in Houston for at least a time, if not to this day) about what happened to BM and was told "it was in fellowship." That was considered an unsatisfactory and "weasel" response, but he knew he would get no more.

So, starting back in 1977, a time when all of the turmoil for John and Jane began, BM had a problem. He was then shuffled to Arlington. I moved to Arlington in July, 1977 and BM had just been moved there. Then when Irving came along, he was moved there. At some level, this is sort of like moving those predator priests around by the RCC.

And it is evidence that there was a kind of control going on. Even I had no idea that it was going on. I couldn't have said that I saw any of it. But it was real.

I now wonder if the attack on Jane and on others in Austin at the same time was an effort in throwing smoke grenades about a "rebellion" to keep the problems with an important member of the LSM team under the radar while they got him moved out to hide the problem and hope it would go away.

One other note. I took just a couple of minutes to spell out the sequence of events from Memorial Day weekend, 1977, through to the divorce and remarriage of the Austin elder's wife to BM many years later, pointing to the common theme in the Houston and Austin cases, the difference in the support of the husbands for their wives, and the fact that Jane was almost the only one trying to salvage this elder's marriage. My dad could only shake his head.

He has a few things to consider now. It may take some time. And he may decide that church is church and sinners are sinners and just keep on where he is. But can only be with a different view of the whole thing.

Ohio · 05-09-2011, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

One other note. I took just a couple of minutes to spell out the sequence of events from Memorial Day weekend, 1977, through to the divorce and remarriage of the Austin elder's wife to BM many years later, pointing to the common theme in the Houston and Austin cases, the difference in the support of the husbands for their wives, and the fact that Jane was almost the only one trying to salvage this elder's marriage.

Mike, did you mean indifference? Please clarify.

OBW · 05-09-2011, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Mike, did you mean indifference? Please clarify.

What I meant was the difference in how John support Jane v how the Austin elder supported (or rather didn't support — stood one with the assault against) his wife.

ZNPaaneah · 05-09-2011, 04:01 PM

I was asked the following questions about my post:

Campus work, gospel work, what is the difference? Shouldn’t campus work be the gospel? What was being done at University of Houston that wasn’t being done at Rice University? Conversely, what was being done at Rice University that wasn’t being done at University of Houston? How did EM and KR factor in to these two schools?

I think these are great questions and would love to discuss this, I hope you will find this interesting as well.

This is a description of what we did, which I consider the work of the Gospel:

The first week that I was on campus after coming into the LRC I went to a class with my former roommate while sharing with him about the gospel and decided to join up in the class. It was a class on religion, we were each asked to visit a church and share with the class about it. I brought in a bunch of stuff about the LRC and was sharing it when this other brother kept hogging everything, so I kept telling him “hey, pass that on, let other people see it” etc. This brother turned out to be the first brother added after I had come in (though it was DC that helped greatly). He was MB. Then MB began praying for his roommate he soon joined us as well. The four of us would eat lunch together and MB’s roommate would provoke a conversation with someone else sitting at the table and then sit back and watch us preach. It was like a kickoff in a football game. I would respond and share something that I had enjoyed in the last 24 hours (since the last time we had had lunch together). Usually it was from one of my geology classes where I would relate some aspect of the creation as a testimony of God. While I was speaking MB would be totally focused in, he would then pull out one of these cheap paperback NT, turn to some verses and begin to share with this contact verses from the NT that were showing how what I had shared was Biblical, and the gospel, etc. He had never heard a word of it until that moment. Then DC would step in and pray and it would always be the same, he would lead this person to call on the Lord, because whoever shall call shall be saved, and then we would all pray. It seemed we would be praying with people on campus every day, and we had a schedule so that we ate at a different cafeteria every day. This is how we met DR, who was a premed student. I also met another brother that worked in the computer room, he wasn’t a student, and JF (the brother of James F would also meet with us). This was a kind of organic preaching of the gospel, we learned to trust each other and challenge each other. As I came to trust that MB would tie everything to the Bible I would do that less and just share the analogy, and MB’s roommate would try to be even more provocative when he kicked off the discussion. Everyone became wary of us, kind of like what Paul said “we were well known yet as unknown”. Then the headmaster of one of the colleges asked to come to a meeting. I brought him and he then wrote a story for “The Texas Monthly” (I think that was the name, it is a large journal in Texas). It was as though they had hired Balaam to curse the church and the Lord had turned his curse to blessing, saints were reading what he wrote in the meeting and laughing and rejoicing.

Our gospel was prevailing and so Campus Crusade (a christian group on the campus that I met with from time to time) began distributing the “God Men” and telling people we were a cult. We heard this from one of the brothers, he came to us privately (kind of like Nicodemus). I asked him why he was supporting us and he said that we preach the gospel, we only use the Bible, he said that everyone should preach like us. During our conversation he let it slip that he knew me from when I was a freshman. I was shocked that he could recognize me and asked him what he thought, he said “we give God the glory”.

So we decided to step up our game and put out the truth to counter the rumors. I began to post a column in the monthly paper, it cost us $50 a month, and it was a great experience for me. We also began to distribute gospel tracts. To our great surprise the one that had the biggest punch was one written by BM entitled “Will death solve your problems?” That really hit me seeing people sneak these tracts away and try and read them secretly, the tract is asking if suicide will solve your problems. I had never even considered suicide but it was clear that this tract was hitting a nerve among many.

Then we got news that the different colleges had had meetings with everyone telling them not to talk with us. You have to realize that students at Rice may appear like wimps and geeks on a basketball court or a boxing ring, but having an open discussion, that is their turf. They pride themselves in being smarter than Christians, to be told to avoid us went against their ego. So we played on that, once we were sitting at a table, I leaned over and asked a student sitting nearby what his major was, he said “electrical engineer”, I said “We have the gospel for the electrical engineers, give us 5 minutes and you will receive the Lord” and sure enough he prayed with us after 5 minutes. Once I was sitting at a table at the center of a cafeteria, every table was packed, many students were standing and holding their plates as they ate, yet at my table there were 9 empty seats! Everyone in that dorm was scared of me, it was unbelievable.

So it became clear we would have to adapt, so we came up with a plan where we would eat lunch quickly, and then in the last 20 minutes distribute gospel tracts to the entire cafeteria. It was like a commando raid. We started with the easiest dorms first, but eventually we came to my college which I knew would be the toughest. As we were sitting there eating it was as though a bee hive had been attacked and the entire atmosphere was becoming furious. The two other brothers with me looked very nervous, so I divided the cafeteria in half, I gave them one half and I took the half with all the football players. I went to the star player first and said “Hey big man, do you want to know why God made you so big?” and put down the tract “The Purpose of Man”. After that it was easy to pass out tracts to everyone else. For the rest of lunch he never touched the tract, he was one of the last people to leave, he got up, took his tray back, and then on the way out his hand landed on the table, when he lifted it up the tract was gone.

There was an intense atmosphere on that campus, event he BMOC was terrified to have people see him take one of our tracts. The headmaster of my college then told my parents that I had wasted my four years there. That was a very hurtful comment, but I took it to the Lord and prayed about it. At first the Lord showed me things that I could have done better. Then he showed me how much impact our gospel had. I would walk down the sidewalk and he would point out how people would hide their eyes and he would say “remember 2 years ago, at this college?” and I would go, oh, yeah, we talked to him about the gospel. “Well, whenever he sees you he is convicted”. It was as though everyone on that campus was convicted. Then the April fool’s issue of the paper came out and at least half of that paper was about us. They even put together a column made to look like ours that fooled the brother working in the computer room. The gospel was the central focus of the entire campus. And then sitting in class I heard students laughing about the wife of my headmaster, the one who had spoken evilly about me to my parents, the story was exceedingly humiliating, the headmaster was forced to leave the campus and it probably cost him his marriage as well. I tried to say something to the Lord about how this was too severe and He wouldn’t hear it. From that point on I always have felt that vengeance is the Lord’s, He will repay, and much worse than I ever would.

We would also drive from campus to meetings. Usually there would be 4 or 5 of us in the car. We had a pole with a clothespin attached to it. As we would drive we would attach a tract to the pole and pass it to others in other cars. It was hilarious. By the time we got to the meeting we were in stitches. We had a blast. But there was work as well, DC would meet us 3-4 times a week for lunch. He worked as a salesman and I doubted any of his clients were near our campus. He would then follow up at night visiting those that prayed with us at lunch. I worked on that monthly article. The brothers would usually come to the Friday meeting and then to the Young People’s meeting on Saturday night. They would come Sunday morning about 50% of the time, rarely come to a Lord’s table meeting and never come to a prayer meeting. MB took his studies very seriously he had one of the three highest GPA’s on campus.

By Contrast at UH

The saints all lived in corporate living across the street from the campus. They were driven to every meeting by a brother named Ken who ran the Brother’s house. But apart from meetings there was no gospel preaching on the campus. What they would do to preach the gospel would be schedule a Bible study, cajole brothers to pass out invitations which entailed someone pinning an invitation to a bulletin board when no one was looking. Then they would have a Bible study with about 10 saints from the LRC. So there was a lot of work, no gospel. You had to plan these Bible studies, you had to prepare a message, you had to make an outline, you had to run a brother’s house, you had to drive them to the meetings. You had to prepare for the Young people’s meetings. That is the campus work.

KR and EM

KR went to Rice Grad school. He thought he was going to come in and “help us”, (his words). He scheduled a Bible study on Hebrews (regurgitated Life Study). For thirty minutes we all sat there and listened to him. We never went back. When we preached the gospel we all functioned, we challenged each other, it was unpredictable, it was fresh, it was new, there was no regurgitated message, it was sandlot ball. I would throw something that I enjoyed of the Lord at MB as hard as I could. He had never heard what I shared before, the gospel contact realized that this was all new, and MB would catch it and have his little NT out in minutes flipping to verses. We didn’t have the slightest interest in listening to another message. From that point on KR lost all interest in the gospel at Rice. If he could be in charge he was interested, but when he learned no one was in charge, we were all just brothers laboring together and he was welcome to join us, he was not interested. He married and ran a sister’s house next to the brother’s house by UH. EM also married at that time, they both had little kids, and they were both close friends. In retrospect this may have been one of the two strikes against me, that I had not tried to drum up support for KR’s bible studies.

TLFisher · 05-09-2011, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If he could be in charge he was interested, but when he learned no one was in charge, we were all just brothers laboring together and he was welcome to join us, he was not interested.

Brothers laboring together and no one in charge? That is organic. In the book of Acts, that's how I viewed Antioich as being.

ZNPaaneah · 05-09-2011, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Interesting that this topic should be "live" at this moment. Only yesterday my dad reminded me of the time back in 2006 that I had noted to him (and my mom who was still alive then) concerning Philip Lee's doings and the fall-out from that, noting that I had said something about them not having any idea about it...

This testimony points to motive and is the key piece of information I didn't have earlier. If Jane was in fact trying to save the marriage of an elder and his wife when BM was involved, that is truly a motive to discredit her in an attempt at a cover up. If this was in fact the motive for what went down in Houston with Jane, BP and RG, then let the Lord judge, I would not want to be in their shoes (RG and BP).

OBW · 05-09-2011, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This testimony points to motive and is the key piece of information I didn't have earlier. If Jane was in fact trying to save the marriage of an elder and his wife when BM was involved, that is truly a motive to discredit her in an attempt at a cover up. If this was in fact the motive for what went down in Houston with Jane, BP and RG, then let the Lord judge, I would not want to be in their shoes (RG and BP).

I think that Jane's own testimony is that she knew nothing of BM's issues at the time, but sensed something that had no clear definition then. It was only much later that events added clarity to the times leading to that fateful day in 1977.

TLFisher · 05-09-2011, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

He noted that he had once asked PD, another elder (I think in Houston for at least a time, if not to this day) about what happened to BM and was told "it was in fellowship." That was considered an unsatisfactory and "weasel" response, but he knew he would get no more.

What has happened to transparency. On another thread the lurker posted about being transparent. I'm all for it. There's a general risk in being transparent. In doing so you will run the risk of chaffing others.Transparency is worth the risk.
How does this relate tour post OBW? To say it was in fellowship is not being transparent. You didn't say when this interaction took place. Suppose it happened more than 30 years ago people reading your post might think why is it relative now? Why bring up something from the past? My point is when you don't examine where you were wrong, there's a trend to repeat them. Relatively speaking not too long ago in 2007-2008 an elder I knew from another locality contacted my wife and I. In time I had asked a point blank question about a particular brother from that locality under discipline. As you said OBW, it is in fellowship. This particular elder meant there are brothers involved in fellowship and he did not want to know anything or get involved.
I sensed there was no openness to push the issue any further. I was clear to me the matter was too political.

OBW · 05-09-2011, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

What has happened to transparency. On another thread the lurker posted about being transparent. I'm all for it. There's a general risk in being transparent. In doing so you will run the risk of chaffing others.Transparency is worth the risk.
How does this relate tour post OBW? To say it was in fellowship is not being transparent. You didn't say when this interaction took place. Suppose it happened more than 30 years ago people reading your post might think why is it relative now? Why bring up something from the past? My point is when you don't examine where you were wrong, there's a trend to repeat them. Relatively speaking not too long ago in 2007-2008 an elder I knew from another locality contacted my wife and I. In time I had asked a point blank question about a particular brother from that locality under discipline. As you said OBW, it is in fellowship. This particular elder meant there are brothers involved in fellowship and he did not want to know anything or get involved.
I sensed there was no openness to push the issue any further. I was clear to me the matter was too political.

My dad did not give a lot of details, but I assumed that it was some time after BM left, although probably not a long time after. He did not provide a time frame.

As for the term "in fellowship" in this case, it surely could be presumed to simply mean that elders are dealing with something and that it is not your business — and that might be a correct response. But my dad's sense seemed to be that it was more of an avoidance than a clear statement that something righteous was going on. I cannot tell more than that. My conversation with my dad was yesterday. I believe that his talk with PD was reasonably close to the time of the event — back in the early 80s — although I am unable to say how close.

I brought this up because it had a link to the discussion about what was going on in 1977 in Houston even though not all aspects were related. And virtually everything about it reeks of "we can't say we were wrong."

TLFisher · 05-09-2011, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

As for the term "in fellowship" in this case, it surely could be presumed to simply mean that elders are dealing with something and that it is not your business — and that might be a correct response. But my dad's sense seemed to be that it was more of an avoidance than a clear statement that something righteous was going on. I cannot tell more than that.

I brought this up because it had a link to the discussion about what was going on in 1977 in Houston even though not all aspects were related. And virtually everything about it reeks of "we can't say we were wrong."

Even if the conversation happened in 77,78, or 79, still applies today. Still can examine whether or not we were wrong. With the elder your dad spoke with and the elder I spoke with, if it happened in your locality you as the elder should be essential in fellowship. To say I don't want to get involved is to shrink back from responsibility. Saying I'm not included in fellowship is another way of saying, I'm an elder, but not practically. If it was as you said, it's not your business, well, I was never told that.

TLFisher · 05-09-2011, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

And another thing. I saw many brothers "dressed down" needlessly in the GLA, but never sisters.

Did this happen in a side room or at a time the church was not present to witness the dressing down?
I presume that might be the case and this type of environment has served the system well. The sister/brother would either submit to the brothers and if they don't, they'll be limited or barred from fellowship. And should there be the thought the brothers need to get right with me, the sister/brother will be discredited and dismissed as a disgruntled former/member.
It has served the system well because the church had not been present to see what happens behind the scenes.

Ohio · 05-09-2011, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Did this happen in a side room or at a time the church was not present to witness the dressing down?

Depends.

Let me clarify something for the record. I am not against an older brother like TC challenging a younger brother in order to help or perfect him. Neither would I protest when some reproof was in order, if and when properly handled.

But what about brothers who are ridiculed and shamed endlessly because TC needed a scapegoat, or some brother was perceived to be a "rival," or perhaps TC was just in a bad mood? Sometimes brothers were mocked or ridiculed just to entertain the audience. Of course, TC didn't see it that way. He was only doing what he had learned from WL, or so he said.

Nearly every single brother who ever cared for me was at some point a victim of TC abuse. Most of these brothers have departed directly due to such abuse. One dear brother said he was treated like a dog. I am talking about precious brothers, who were shepherding elders. I also saw some brothers who themselves also became abusive at times. That scared me even more. Nearly every fruitful brother I have known over the years has departed primarily for this reason.

That's why it makes so much sense to me, though I never personally knew him, that brother ZNP had two strikes against him. Nothing bothers a ministry zealot more than watching a brother being living and fruitful ... yet doing so outside of their prescribed program. That irks the zealots to no end. It's like these ones are living by Christ ... but without needing them or their program. Ones like WL, BP, and TC thrived on knowing you were nothing without them.

TLFisher · 05-09-2011, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Depends.

Let me clarify something for the record. I am not against an older brother like TC challenging a younger brother in order to help or perfect him. Neither would I protest when some reproof was in order, if and when properly handled.

That's why it makes so much sense to me, though I never personally knew him, that brother ZNP had two strikes against him. Nothing bothers a ministry zealot more than watching a brother being living and fruitful ... yet doing so outside of their prescribed program. That irks the zealots to no end. It's like these ones are living by Christ ... but without needing them or their program. Ones like WL, BP, and TC thrived on knowing you were nothing without them.

Key phrase: properly handled.
Many in my generation were taught either by our parents, serving ones, or through thr Word to submit to our elders. There is a fine line before one has crossed from rebuking, reproofing to something more. When that line has been crossed, can the local church leadership say, we were wrong?

Thankful Jane · 05-10-2011, 04:50 AM

Some Facts for Clarification

I’m responding to some things in some recent posts. Just to be clear, it was in 1990, not in 1977, that I was involved in trying to save the marriage which Ben M was breaking up.

As for the squashing of a “sisters’ rebellion” being used like a smokescreen to cover up Ben’s sin, I think there are some facts that show that isn’t what happened. According to Don Rutledge’s post on the Bereans about the Lee-led cover-up of Ben’s sin (early 80s), Ben’s sin was discovered by Ray when Ben was in Irving. At that time Ben confessed to Ray that it had been going on even when he was in Arlington. (Don’s post is in the PDF letter attached to post #1.)

Also, I think it is important to make it plain that Ben’s infidelity in Arlington/Irving was not with the sister, the elder’s wife, that he later seduced and married. That happened in the early 1990s, a number of years after the Irving cover-up. Ben’s infidelity in Irving was not with an LC sister. (The source of this piece of information is Don R.)

The Ben M Connection to Us in Houston

I’d like to clarify a little about the Ben M connection to us in Houston. First of all, what Benson and Ray actually did to Ben at that time was, in my view, worthy of the sentiments ZNP expressed when he said, “I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes …” I believe that the control that Benson and Ray exercised over Ben when they moved him away to Arlington may have played a role in what subsequently happened to Ben.

John and I both now believe that Ben’s weeping (see The Thread of Gold, p 162, “A Weeping Brother”) was evidence of his being convicted, while still in Houston, about his failing moral condition. After the “weeping meeting,” Ben followed up with John and me concerning our fellowship in that meeting about church couples needing marriage help and told us that he also believed this was a real need. He wanted to do something in the church there to help in that vein and wanted us to be involved (The Thread of Gold, p. 169, at the end of “A Baton Rouge Outpost”).

We now believe that Ben’s weeping and his subsequent fellowship with us about help for marriages was evidence of his being in a frame of mind to take steps towards possibly getting help with his own problems. If he had remained as the leading elder in Houston and been allowed to try to do something on behalf of couples and marriages, he might have been saved from the terrible path he traveled down. Benson and Ray’s control of him put a stop to this possibility.

John and I believe that Ben’s removal from Houston may have been due to (1) Ben having “lost his authority” (in Benson and Ray’s minds) when he showed weakness by weeping in front of others and (2) Ben possibly telling Ray of his desire to do something to help couples in Houston. Marriage help was definitely not in the Witness Lee program; and, those of us who know Ray, know that if he heard of such an idea, alarm bells would have been set off in his Lee-saturated psyche; i.e., an elder who wanted to do something in the church in Houston to help couples could not be left in place as the leading elder.

Ray was in the “weeping” meeting (7 people present); and, we learned years later from Ben, that Ray called Benson (in Dallas) immediately after that meeting to report on it. It was only a matter of months after this meeting when the boom descended on us and also when Ben was moved away from Houston. I don't think this was the reason they came down on us, but our situation and Ben’s were not unrelated.

Thankful Jane

ZNPaaneah · 05-10-2011, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Ray was in the “weeping” meeting (7 people present); and, we learned years later from Ben, that Ray called Benson (in Dallas) immediately after that meeting to report on it. It was only a matter of months after this meeting when the boom descended on us and also when Ben was moved away from Houston. I don't think this was the reason they came down on us, but our situation and Ben’s were not unrelated.

Do you think that Ray may have felt you had responsibility for Ben breaking down in front of others?

TLFisher · 05-10-2011, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I’m responding to some things in some recent posts. Just to be clear, it was in 1990, not in 1977, that I was involved in trying to save the marriage which Ben M was breaking up.

John and I both now believe that Ben’s weeping (see The Thread of Gold, p 162, “A Weeping Brother”) was evidence of his being convicted, while still in Houston, about his failing moral condition. After the “weeping meeting,” Ben followed up with John and me concerning our fellowship in that meeting about church couples needing marriage help and told us that he also believed this was a real need. He wanted to do something in the church there to help in that vein and wanted us to be involved (The Thread of Gold, p. 169, at the end of “A Baton Rouge Outpost”).

We now believe that Ben’s weeping and his subsequent fellowship with us about help for marriages was evidence of his being in a frame of mind to take steps towards possibly getting help with his own problems. If he had remained as the leading elder in Houston and been allowed to try to do something on behalf of couples and marriages, he might have been saved from the terrible path he traveled down. Benson and Ray’s control of him put a stop to this possibility.

John and I believe that Ben’s removal from Houston may have been due to (1) Ben having “lost his authority” (in Benson and Ray’s minds) when he showed weakness by weeping in front of others and (2) Ben possibly telling Ray of his desire to do something to help couples in Houston. Marriage help was definitely not in the Witness Lee program; and, those of us who know Ray, know that if he heard of such an idea, alarm bells would have been set off in his Lee-saturated psyche; i.e., an elder who wanted to do something in the church in Houston to help couples could not be left in place as the leading elder.

Ray was in the “weeping” meeting (7 people present); and, we learned years later from Ben, that Ray called Benson (in Dallas) immediately after that meeting to report on it. It was only a matter of months after this meeting when the boom descended on us and also when Ben was moved away from Houston. I don't think this was the reason they came down on us, but our situation and Ben’s were not unrelated.

Thankful Jane

Care for marriages is something that is in need. As much now as it was when you and John were in Houston.
Is this what you were set aside for; wanting to help couples? It's our soul that needs shepherding.
It's fine if you have meetings every night of the week, but if there's unresolved matters in a marriage, meetings won't make the matters go away. Unresolved issues will still be present for the brother and the sister when they go to their home. These couples enduring the problems are the ones that have to live it.

Ohio · 05-10-2011, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Key phrase: properly handled.
Many in my generation were taught either by our parents, serving ones, or through thr Word to submit to our elders. There is a fine line before one has crossed from rebuking, reproofing to something more. When that line has been crossed, can the local church leadership say, we were wrong?

I have asked brothers why they never came to the aid of another brother being "abused" by TC, and I use the word "abuse" because so many of these brothers have departed in its aftermath. A couple said that if you resist TC, he will respect that and then back down. My next question concerned those who do not resist, but rather take it to heart, or for some reason become silent when oppressed, and this was mostly the case. No one has ever answered this question.

John Myer is probably the most recent victim, or should I say most recent brother to be liberated from a program of abuse. JM just got tired of the need to explain to his congregation why TC belittles him continually in regional gatherings. Is that really how JM was supposed to bear the cross? Perhaps TC's "joke-pool" just dried up and he must resort to public shaming for laughs? No, of course not! Remember ... it's all about the maintenance of power, the good old-fashioned Chinese way.

Thankful Jane · 05-10-2011, 09:19 AM

ZNP, I just saw your question and will answer it as soon as I can. For now I'm going ahead to post something I have just written in response to another post of yours:

Thank you for your sharing about Rice. What you described happening at Rice is very much like what happened at the U of H with us before Captain Don Looper came on the scene to begin commanding the troops.

John and I had, of our own initiative, moved by the campus in late 1973 to provide a living place for two campus sisters. In early 1975, after we had been living there for about a year, without any kind of plan or program to have a campus work, the elders told John that they wanted us to move back to Hall One because there was nothing happening on campus (to their way of thinking). I had a strong burden from the Lord to be right where we were and didn’t want to leave. I was having a wonderful experience with Jesus and loved being around the campus sisters and their friends. I had free time to read the Bible and other Christian books. I also loved being far enough away from the main hall (without a car during the day) so that I no longer received the constant barrage of daily calls to come and serve in some capacity.

John told them we did not want to leave the campus and they decided to give us three more months. They said if nothing had happened by then, we had to move back to the Hall. When the three months were almost over, all of a sudden the Spirit began to move on campus. The sisters came home every day with amazing stories about what the Lord was doing and fruit started coming in off of the campus. This got the attention of the leadership. Instead of moving us away, they did an about face and sent Don Looper to take over what they then christened as the “campus work” (comment, Thread, 152). Don arrived and began to organize the troops. Having witnessed the Spirit’s working and blessing, I was reluctant (mainly in heart) to embrace Don’s organizational techniques and schedules; however, I gradually succumbed to the pressure and fell in with his program. He orchestrated our moving to another, larger living place, on a busy street adjacent to the campus and had more sisters move in with us. I don’t think Don was ever satisfied with my level of cooperation because he shortly began to background us and to use the home of another brother and sister who also lived near the campus. There Don held meetings and ran his “campus work headquarters” (my choice of words, not his). That sister told me years later of her frustration with becoming Don’s “slave” as she put it; but she went along like a good soldier.

After a year of managing a very large corporate living situation and trying to keep up with Don’s agenda and schedules, etc., I was drained. My joy was gone. Our marriage was suffering. John was battling with being jealous of Don whose interests seemed be getting more of my time and energy than his did. (Years later someone told me that Don’s wife had also had struggled with jealously related to me because Don spent so much time involved in the campus work. This stunned me when I heard it. What a mess.) We decided to move away from the campus by the fall of 1976 and left it to Don and his lieutenants.

So, the U of H that you saw and described, ZNP, was the one that had been commandeered by the LC program; it was the one we had left. I could easily relate to your story of Kerry R and his boring Bible study, having sat through such things at the U of H under its new command.

By the way, the sister who became Kerry R’s wife was the first sister to come into the church through our campus home. She lived with us there and chose to move with us when we left the campus.

One more thing that might be of interest to some is that after a short time, Don Looper took the U of H “model” to Austin and began his UT campus work. He also took with him the brother and sister whose home he had used by U of H and used them, mainly the sister, to run the model campus corporate living situation by UT. The sister told me years later that she snapped and saluted like Don’s personal lackey and always considered herself to have been Don’s Austin Jane. I had to laugh when I heard that, but she said it wasn’t a laughing matter to her. She truly was at his beck and call and in all her “serving” she ran dry of the joy of the Lord she had found at the time of her salvation. Don would call her often on the spur of the moment and tell (not ask) her to prepare and serve a large meal for some large group that he was bringing over. I also think I remember that she also told me they were not compensated for the cost of the meals. She had small children and an unhelpful husband and ran, if memory serves me correctly, a brother’s house, so she didn’t have the benefit of sisters that could help her. But I digress, as usual, and lest I find myself back on Ohio’s list of posters whose posts are too long J, I’ll make one more comment and stop.

As you know from your experience at Rice, there is nothing like seeing God at work. Nothing. I can fully relate to the joy that you and those with you experienced seeing Jesus working spontaneously at Rice. The one who cannot stand to see God working and uses everything at his disposal to interfere is the old serpent. Unfortunately, many times he uses other believers and their good intentions and zeal to frustrate God’s own work.

Thankful Jane

ZNPaaneah · 05-10-2011, 04:43 AM

I was taught that "all things work together for good to those that love God". We had a song that went "all he could do the foe, was just release the flow", which was true.

You mention that a brother dressed down by the elders (I was dressed down in a meeting and behind closed doors) had two options, submit, or become disgruntled and then disciplined for that. Actually there is a third option.

Paul's word in Galatians helped me because I went home and got on my knees to pray about what happened, his word came to me "I did not give place to them, no, not for an hour".

So, the third option is this, as soon as the message is over you pop up with a positive, encouraging testimony without the slightest hint of being hurt, or angry, or defensive or self justifying. Second, you make a point of speaking like this in every meeting. 3rd, speak truthfully, clearly, and words that build up, not that tear down. This may mean that at times different ones may not appreciate what you are speaking, but the Body will, everything will be done in the light, and it exposes the falsehood of their rebuke. You are calling their bluff, if they have a real issue, then say so, their silence will speak volumes. When you do this you realize that you are not alone, that many others have been suffering in silence, the silent majority, and they will support you in many ways and they will also reject the lies of the elders.

Once you do come under attack you then have to take Paul's word to light "avoid the appearance of evil", it is no longer good enough to avoid sin, you now have to realize that anything you do, regardless of how innocent, if it can be misconstrued or twisted it will be. Obviously you will fail, so finally, be the first to confess and repent.

05-09-2011, 08:59 AM	#3
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,384	Re: “Can the Local Church Leadership Say, ‘We Were Wrong’?” (An Open Letter Interesting that this topic should be "live" at this moment. Only yesterday my dad reminded me of the time back in 2006 that I had noted to him (and my mom who was still alive then) concerning Philip Lee's doings and the fall-out from that, noting that I had said something about them not having any idea about it. I spent just a few minutes to lay out the sequence of events, mainly in Anaheim, the involvement of BP and RG, among others in the ensuing turmoil, and the writing of the book of lies, FOTPR. He acknowledged that he had a copy of it. I made it clear that it was a fabrication designed to keep anyone who actually heard about the conflict from discovering what had really gone on. The unfortunate thing, at least for now, is that my dad merely shook his head in disgust and noted something like "people really seem to do some evil things." I added that the mere writing of FOTPR, for me, put Lee into a category in which he should have been disqualified from ministry immediately (I made no comment about before that time). My dad made no protest. But then he mentioned something about BM, who had been an elder in Houston, then Arlington and Irving, all while working for the LSM, only to be pushed out quietly for infidelity, later marrying another elder's wife. He knew this (not of the infidelity at the time), but not what had happened before BM left Irving. I had the opportunity to fill him in on the history based on the record in TOG and Hope's additional testimony concerning the handling of BM's expulsion. I think his eyes were opened just a little to the kind of manipulation that went on. He noted that he had once asked PD, another elder (I think in Houston for at least a time, if not to this day) about what happened to BM and was told "it was in fellowship." That was considered an unsatisfactory and "weasel" response, but he knew he would get no more. So, starting back in 1977, a time when all of the turmoil for John and Jane began, BM had a problem. He was then shuffled to Arlington. I moved to Arlington in July, 1977 and BM had just been moved there. Then when Irving came along, he was moved there. At some level, this is sort of like moving those predator priests around by the RCC. And it is evidence that there was a kind of control going on. Even I had no idea that it was going on. I couldn't have said that I saw any of it. But it was real. I now wonder if the attack on Jane and on others in Austin at the same time was an effort in throwing smoke grenades about a "rebellion" to keep the problems with an important member of the LSM team under the radar while they got him moved out to hide the problem and hope it would go away. One other note. I took just a couple of minutes to spell out the sequence of events from Memorial Day weekend, 1977, through to the divorce and remarriage of the Austin elder's wife to BM many years later, pointing to the common theme in the Houston and Austin cases, the difference in the support of the husbands for their wives, and the fact that Jane was almost the only one trying to salvage this elder's marriage. My dad could only shake his head. He has a few things to consider now. It may take some time. And he may decide that church is church and sinners are sinners and just keep on where he is. But can only be with a different view of the whole thing. __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

05-09-2011, 04:01 PM	#6
ZNPaaneah Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 7,105	Re: Gospel work vs Campus work I was asked the following questions about my post: Campus work, gospel work, what is the difference? Shouldn’t campus work be the gospel? What was being done at University of Houston that wasn’t being done at Rice University? Conversely, what was being done at Rice University that wasn’t being done at University of Houston? How did EM and KR factor in to these two schools? I think these are great questions and would love to discuss this, I hope you will find this interesting as well. This is a description of what we did, which I consider the work of the Gospel: The first week that I was on campus after coming into the LRC I went to a class with my former roommate while sharing with him about the gospel and decided to join up in the class. It was a class on religion, we were each asked to visit a church and share with the class about it. I brought in a bunch of stuff about the LRC and was sharing it when this other brother kept hogging everything, so I kept telling him “hey, pass that on, let other people see it” etc. This brother turned out to be the first brother added after I had come in (though it was DC that helped greatly). He was MB. Then MB began praying for his roommate he soon joined us as well. The four of us would eat lunch together and MB’s roommate would provoke a conversation with someone else sitting at the table and then sit back and watch us preach. It was like a kickoff in a football game. I would respond and share something that I had enjoyed in the last 24 hours (since the last time we had had lunch together). Usually it was from one of my geology classes where I would relate some aspect of the creation as a testimony of God. While I was speaking MB would be totally focused in, he would then pull out one of these cheap paperback NT, turn to some verses and begin to share with this contact verses from the NT that were showing how what I had shared was Biblical, and the gospel, etc. He had never heard a word of it until that moment. Then DC would step in and pray and it would always be the same, he would lead this person to call on the Lord, because whoever shall call shall be saved, and then we would all pray. It seemed we would be praying with people on campus every day, and we had a schedule so that we ate at a different cafeteria every day. This is how we met DR, who was a premed student. I also met another brother that worked in the computer room, he wasn’t a student, and JF (the brother of James F would also meet with us). This was a kind of organic preaching of the gospel, we learned to trust each other and challenge each other. As I came to trust that MB would tie everything to the Bible I would do that less and just share the analogy, and MB’s roommate would try to be even more provocative when he kicked off the discussion. Everyone became wary of us, kind of like what Paul said “we were well known yet as unknown”. Then the headmaster of one of the colleges asked to come to a meeting. I brought him and he then wrote a story for “The Texas Monthly” (I think that was the name, it is a large journal in Texas). It was as though they had hired Balaam to curse the church and the Lord had turned his curse to blessing, saints were reading what he wrote in the meeting and laughing and rejoicing. Our gospel was prevailing and so Campus Crusade (a christian group on the campus that I met with from time to time) began distributing the “God Men” and telling people we were a cult. We heard this from one of the brothers, he came to us privately (kind of like Nicodemus). I asked him why he was supporting us and he said that we preach the gospel, we only use the Bible, he said that everyone should preach like us. During our conversation he let it slip that he knew me from when I was a freshman. I was shocked that he could recognize me and asked him what he thought, he said “we give God the glory”. So we decided to step up our game and put out the truth to counter the rumors. I began to post a column in the monthly paper, it cost us $50 a month, and it was a great experience for me. We also began to distribute gospel tracts. To our great surprise the one that had the biggest punch was one written by BM entitled “Will death solve your problems?” That really hit me seeing people sneak these tracts away and try and read them secretly, the tract is asking if suicide will solve your problems. I had never even considered suicide but it was clear that this tract was hitting a nerve among many. Then we got news that the different colleges had had meetings with everyone telling them not to talk with us. You have to realize that students at Rice may appear like wimps and geeks on a basketball court or a boxing ring, but having an open discussion, that is their turf. They pride themselves in being smarter than Christians, to be told to avoid us went against their ego. So we played on that, once we were sitting at a table, I leaned over and asked a student sitting nearby what his major was, he said “electrical engineer”, I said “We have the gospel for the electrical engineers, give us 5 minutes and you will receive the Lord” and sure enough he prayed with us after 5 minutes. Once I was sitting at a table at the center of a cafeteria, every table was packed, many students were standing and holding their plates as they ate, yet at my table there were 9 empty seats! Everyone in that dorm was scared of me, it was unbelievable. So it became clear we would have to adapt, so we came up with a plan where we would eat lunch quickly, and then in the last 20 minutes distribute gospel tracts to the entire cafeteria. It was like a commando raid. We started with the easiest dorms first, but eventually we came to my college which I knew would be the toughest. As we were sitting there eating it was as though a bee hive had been attacked and the entire atmosphere was becoming furious. The two other brothers with me looked very nervous, so I divided the cafeteria in half, I gave them one half and I took the half with all the football players. I went to the star player first and said “Hey big man, do you want to know why God made you so big?” and put down the tract “The Purpose of Man”. After that it was easy to pass out tracts to everyone else. For the rest of lunch he never touched the tract, he was one of the last people to leave, he got up, took his tray back, and then on the way out his hand landed on the table, when he lifted it up the tract was gone. There was an intense atmosphere on that campus, event he BMOC was terrified to have people see him take one of our tracts. The headmaster of my college then told my parents that I had wasted my four years there. That was a very hurtful comment, but I took it to the Lord and prayed about it. At first the Lord showed me things that I could have done better. Then he showed me how much impact our gospel had. I would walk down the sidewalk and he would point out how people would hide their eyes and he would say “remember 2 years ago, at this college?” and I would go, oh, yeah, we talked to him about the gospel. “Well, whenever he sees you he is convicted”. It was as though everyone on that campus was convicted. Then the April fool’s issue of the paper came out and at least half of that paper was about us. They even put together a column made to look like ours that fooled the brother working in the computer room. The gospel was the central focus of the entire campus. And then sitting in class I heard students laughing about the wife of my headmaster, the one who had spoken evilly about me to my parents, the story was exceedingly humiliating, the headmaster was forced to leave the campus and it probably cost him his marriage as well. I tried to say something to the Lord about how this was too severe and He wouldn’t hear it. From that point on I always have felt that vengeance is the Lord’s, He will repay, and much worse than I ever would. We would also drive from campus to meetings. Usually there would be 4 or 5 of us in the car. We had a pole with a clothespin attached to it. As we would drive we would attach a tract to the pole and pass it to others in other cars. It was hilarious. By the time we got to the meeting we were in stitches. We had a blast. But there was work as well, DC would meet us 3-4 times a week for lunch. He worked as a salesman and I doubted any of his clients were near our campus. He would then follow up at night visiting those that prayed with us at lunch. I worked on that monthly article. The brothers would usually come to the Friday meeting and then to the Young People’s meeting on Saturday night. They would come Sunday morning about 50% of the time, rarely come to a Lord’s table meeting and never come to a prayer meeting. MB took his studies very seriously he had one of the three highest GPA’s on campus. By Contrast at UH The saints all lived in corporate living across the street from the campus. They were driven to every meeting by a brother named Ken who ran the Brother’s house. But apart from meetings there was no gospel preaching on the campus. What they would do to preach the gospel would be schedule a Bible study, cajole brothers to pass out invitations which entailed someone pinning an invitation to a bulletin board when no one was looking. Then they would have a Bible study with about 10 saints from the LRC. So there was a lot of work, no gospel. You had to plan these Bible studies, you had to prepare a message, you had to make an outline, you had to run a brother’s house, you had to drive them to the meetings. You had to prepare for the Young people’s meetings. That is the campus work. KR and EM KR went to Rice Grad school. He thought he was going to come in and “help us”, (his words). He scheduled a Bible study on Hebrews (regurgitated Life Study). For thirty minutes we all sat there and listened to him. We never went back. When we preached the gospel we all functioned, we challenged each other, it was unpredictable, it was fresh, it was new, there was no regurgitated message, it was sandlot ball. I would throw something that I enjoyed of the Lord at MB as hard as I could. He had never heard what I shared before, the gospel contact realized that this was all new, and MB would catch it and have his little NT out in minutes flipping to verses. We didn’t have the slightest interest in listening to another message. From that point on KR lost all interest in the gospel at Rice. If he could be in charge he was interested, but when he learned no one was in charge, we were all just brothers laboring together and he was welcome to join us, he was not interested. He married and ran a sister’s house next to the brother’s house by UH. EM also married at that time, they both had little kids, and they were both close friends. In retrospect this may have been one of the two strikes against me, that I had not tried to drum up support for KR’s bible studies.

05-10-2011, 04:50 AM	#16
Thankful Jane Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Georgetown, Texas Posts: 295	Re: The Gross Violations Some Facts for Clarification I’m responding to some things in some recent posts. Just to be clear, it was in 1990, not in 1977, that I was involved in trying to save the marriage which Ben M was breaking up. As for the squashing of a “sisters’ rebellion” being used like a smokescreen to cover up Ben’s sin, I think there are some facts that show that isn’t what happened. According to Don Rutledge’s post on the Bereans about the Lee-led cover-up of Ben’s sin (early 80s), Ben’s sin was discovered by Ray when Ben was in Irving. At that time Ben confessed to Ray that it had been going on even when he was in Arlington. (Don’s post is in the PDF letter attached to post #1.) Also, I think it is important to make it plain that Ben’s infidelity in Arlington/Irving was not with the sister, the elder’s wife, that he later seduced and married. That happened in the early 1990s, a number of years after the Irving cover-up. Ben’s infidelity in Irving was not with an LC sister. (The source of this piece of information is Don R.) The Ben M Connection to Us in Houston I’d like to clarify a little about the Ben M connection to us in Houston. First of all, what Benson and Ray actually did to Ben at that time was, in my view, worthy of the sentiments ZNP expressed when he said, “I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes …” I believe that the control that Benson and Ray exercised over Ben when they moved him away to Arlington may have played a role in what subsequently happened to Ben. John and I both now believe that Ben’s weeping (see The Thread of Gold, p 162, “A Weeping Brother”) was evidence of his being convicted, while still in Houston, about his failing moral condition. After the “weeping meeting,” Ben followed up with John and me concerning our fellowship in that meeting about church couples needing marriage help and told us that he also believed this was a real need. He wanted to do something in the church there to help in that vein and wanted us to be involved (The Thread of Gold, p. 169, at the end of “A Baton Rouge Outpost”). We now believe that Ben’s weeping and his subsequent fellowship with us about help for marriages was evidence of his being in a frame of mind to take steps towards possibly getting help with his own problems. If he had remained as the leading elder in Houston and been allowed to try to do something on behalf of couples and marriages, he might have been saved from the terrible path he traveled down. Benson and Ray’s control of him put a stop to this possibility. John and I believe that Ben’s removal from Houston may have been due to (1) Ben having “lost his authority” (in Benson and Ray’s minds) when he showed weakness by weeping in front of others and (2) Ben possibly telling Ray of his desire to do something to help couples in Houston. Marriage help was definitely not in the Witness Lee program; and, those of us who know Ray, know that if he heard of such an idea, alarm bells would have been set off in his Lee-saturated psyche; i.e., an elder who wanted to do something in the church in Houston to help couples could not be left in place as the leading elder. Ray was in the “weeping” meeting (7 people present); and, we learned years later from Ben, that Ray called Benson (in Dallas) immediately after that meeting to report on it. It was only a matter of months after this meeting when the boom descended on us and also when Ben was moved away from Houston. I don't think this was the reason they came down on us, but our situation and Ben’s were not unrelated. Thankful Jane

05-10-2011, 09:19 AM	#20
Thankful Jane Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Georgetown, Texas Posts: 295	ZNP, I just saw your question and will answer it as soon as I can. For now I'm going ahead to post something I have just written in response to another post of yours: Thank you for your sharing about Rice. What you described happening at Rice is very much like what happened at the U of H with us before Captain Don Looper came on the scene to begin commanding the troops. John and I had, of our own initiative, moved by the campus in late 1973 to provide a living place for two campus sisters. In early 1975, after we had been living there for about a year, without any kind of plan or program to have a campus work, the elders told John that they wanted us to move back to Hall One because there was nothing happening on campus (to their way of thinking). I had a strong burden from the Lord to be right where we were and didn’t want to leave. I was having a wonderful experience with Jesus and loved being around the campus sisters and their friends. I had free time to read the Bible and other Christian books. I also loved being far enough away from the main hall (without a car during the day) so that I no longer received the constant barrage of daily calls to come and serve in some capacity. John told them we did not want to leave the campus and they decided to give us three more months. They said if nothing had happened by then, we had to move back to the Hall. When the three months were almost over, all of a sudden the Spirit began to move on campus. The sisters came home every day with amazing stories about what the Lord was doing and fruit started coming in off of the campus. This got the attention of the leadership. Instead of moving us away, they did an about face and sent Don Looper to take over what they then christened as the “campus work” (comment, Thread, 152). Don arrived and began to organize the troops. Having witnessed the Spirit’s working and blessing, I was reluctant (mainly in heart) to embrace Don’s organizational techniques and schedules; however, I gradually succumbed to the pressure and fell in with his program. He orchestrated our moving to another, larger living place, on a busy street adjacent to the campus and had more sisters move in with us. I don’t think Don was ever satisfied with my level of cooperation because he shortly began to background us and to use the home of another brother and sister who also lived near the campus. There Don held meetings and ran his “campus work headquarters” (my choice of words, not his). That sister told me years later of her frustration with becoming Don’s “slave” as she put it; but she went along like a good soldier. After a year of managing a very large corporate living situation and trying to keep up with Don’s agenda and schedules, etc., I was drained. My joy was gone. Our marriage was suffering. John was battling with being jealous of Don whose interests seemed be getting more of my time and energy than his did. (Years later someone told me that Don’s wife had also had struggled with jealously related to me because Don spent so much time involved in the campus work. This stunned me when I heard it. What a mess.) We decided to move away from the campus by the fall of 1976 and left it to Don and his lieutenants. So, the U of H that you saw and described, ZNP, was the one that had been commandeered by the LC program; it was the one we had left. I could easily relate to your story of Kerry R and his boring Bible study, having sat through such things at the U of H under its new command. By the way, the sister who became Kerry R’s wife was the first sister to come into the church through our campus home. She lived with us there and chose to move with us when we left the campus. One more thing that might be of interest to some is that after a short time, Don Looper took the U of H “model” to Austin and began his UT campus work. He also took with him the brother and sister whose home he had used by U of H and used them, mainly the sister, to run the model campus corporate living situation by UT. The sister told me years later that she snapped and saluted like Don’s personal lackey and always considered herself to have been Don’s Austin Jane. I had to laugh when I heard that, but she said it wasn’t a laughing matter to her. She truly was at his beck and call and in all her “serving” she ran dry of the joy of the Lord she had found at the time of her salvation. Don would call her often on the spur of the moment and tell (not ask) her to prepare and serve a large meal for some large group that he was bringing over. I also think I remember that she also told me they were not compensated for the cost of the meals. She had small children and an unhelpful husband and ran, if memory serves me correctly, a brother’s house, so she didn’t have the benefit of sisters that could help her. But I digress, as usual, and lest I find myself back on Ohio’s list of posters whose posts are too long J, I’ll make one more comment and stop. As you know from your experience at Rice, there is nothing like seeing God at work. Nothing. I can fully relate to the joy that you and those with you experienced seeing Jesus working spontaneously at Rice. The one who cannot stand to see God working and uses everything at his disposal to interfere is the old serpent. Unfortunately, many times he uses other believers and their good intentions and zeal to frustrate God’s own work. Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 05-10-2011 at 09:24 AM. Reason: Title was wrong

05-10-2011, 04:43 AM	#21
ZNPaaneah Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 7,105	Re: The Gross Violations I was taught that "all things work together for good to those that love God". We had a song that went "all he could do the foe, was just release the flow", which was true. You mention that a brother dressed down by the elders (I was dressed down in a meeting and behind closed doors) had two options, submit, or become disgruntled and then disciplined for that. Actually there is a third option. Paul's word in Galatians helped me because I went home and got on my knees to pray about what happened, his word came to me "I did not give place to them, no, not for an hour". So, the third option is this, as soon as the message is over you pop up with a positive, encouraging testimony without the slightest hint of being hurt, or angry, or defensive or self justifying. Second, you make a point of speaking like this in every meeting. 3rd, speak truthfully, clearly, and words that build up, not that tear down. This may mean that at times different ones may not appreciate what you are speaking, but the Body will, everything will be done in the light, and it exposes the falsehood of their rebuke. You are calling their bluff, if they have a real issue, then say so, their silence will speak volumes. When you do this you realize that you are not alone, that many others have been suffering in silence, the silent majority, and they will support you in many ways and they will also reject the lies of the elders. Once you do come under attack you then have to take Paul's word to light "avoid the appearance of evil", it is no longer good enough to avoid sin, you now have to realize that anything you do, regardless of how innocent, if it can be misconstrued or twisted it will be. Obviously you will fail, so finally, be the first to confess and repent.