Does Tithing apply Today?

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Excerpt, the Catholic Encyclopedia
"As the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would insure the proper and permanent support of the clergy. The payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law... The earliest positive legislation on the subject seems to be contained in the letter of the bishops assembled at Tours in 567 and the [canons] of the Council of Macon in 585."



567 AD? Well, that's 500 years after the birth of the New Testament Church. Catholics know their own history, and they were the early church. Trust them when they tell you, tithing is NOT an early Christian teaching. It was born out of either practicality or greed, depending upon your view of the matter. It forced unbelievers to contribute by law, whether they wanted to or not - would our God honor a heart that unwillingly gave, OR a heart that forcefully took?



Excerpt Encyclopedia Brittanica On-line
"Despite serious resistance, tithing became obligatory as Christianity spread across Europe. It was enjoined by ecclesiastical law from the 6th century and enforced in Europe by secular law from the 8th century. In England in the 10th century, payment was made obligatory under ecclesiastical penalties by Edmund I and under temporal penalties by Edgar. In the 14th century Pope Gregory VII, in an effort to control abuses, outlawed lay ownership of tithes.

During the 16th-century Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther approved in general of paying tithes to the temporal sovereign, and the imposition of tithes continued for the benefit of Protestant as well as Roman Catholic churches. Gradually, however, opposition grew. Tithes were repealed in France during the Revolution (1789), without compensation to tithe holders. Other countries abolished certain kinds of tithes and indemnified the holders. By 1887 the tithe had been brought to an end in Italy. It was abolished in Ireland at the disestablishment of the Anglican church in 1871, and it gradually died out in the Church of Scotland. In England in 1836, the tithe was commuted for a rent charge depending on the price of grain, and in 1936 the tithe rent charges were abolished. New methods of taxation were developed in those countries that provided financial support of the church out of government funds. Remnants of the tithing system do exist, however, in certain Protestant European countries. In Germany, for example, citizens must pay a church tax unless they formally renounce membership in a church.

Tithe was never a legal requirement in the United States. Members of certain churches, however, including the Latter-day Saints and Seventh-day Adventists, are required to tithe, and some Christians in other churches do so voluntarily.

The Eastern Orthodox churches never accepted the idea of tithes, and Orthodox church members have never paid them."

Again, I say if we have a right relationship with our Lord, then we will be as He was... our heart will soften, and we will be free to give as He leads.

The sister who attacked my position on tithing has forced her own views in her household - taking the lead and getting her husband to submit to her position, although she herself does not earn the pay cheque and they are a financially struggling family of nine. She believes she must tithe 10% of their GROSS income, before taxes (which are substantially higher here in Canada than they are in the USA). She believes her tithe must come first, and if she can't pay other bills, too bad 'God comes first'. They have a lot of credit issues, and have declared bankruptcy before. They are really struggling.

I don't want to say these things about this family to expose them, but if anyone else out there is in this same position then I want them to hear this: How you handle your debts is part of your testimony to the unbelieving world. If you don't pay your debts, then you are robbing from your creditors.

I asked this sister why she felt she needed to pay this kind of money, she asked "well how else is the church in blankety-blank going to pay for the chairs and the heat and the lights and the carpeting?!" How else? Well, if you can't trust God to provide for His people what they truly need, then maybe you need to ask if God really believes He has an interest vested in those things.

I think the mightiest movements for God are actually quite financially poor. That's why we see the power in the growth of the Church in the third world, and often see such a lack here in the wealth of the West. Why? Because where your mind is, there will your heart be also. Give of your money - that is fine - but far less important than giving of your time and of yourself. Is there a need? Then fill it. A family in need of help, then go and help them... don't just write them a cheque and write them off; actually visit them, minister to them, and care for them in a real and practical way. Build up the Body of Christ with the love of Christ which is in you! For the Body to grow, it must be nourished. For the Kingdom to flourish, it must gain new citizens. Do we want people to flock to hear the Word of God because the buildings we erect are attractive and comfortable, or because they see something in us that they realize they also need: A real love for God the Father and a relationship with God the Son; a relationship that transforms us from the inside out - and really does make us like Him in life and in nature... and how many times did we read of Him slipping some coins into the hands of someone who came to Him for help?

To those who would lead the Church in this age, not I but our Lord Jesus Christ does say:

Luke 16:13-15 "No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.
The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed Him.And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God."


In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

The sister who attacked my position on tithing has forced her own views in her household - taking the lead and getting her husband to submit to her position, although she herself does not earn the pay cheque and they are a financially struggling family of nine. She believes she must tithe 10% of their GROSS income, before taxes (which are substantially higher here in Canada than they are in the USA). She believes her tithe must come first, and if she can't pay other bills, too bad 'God comes first'. They have a lot of credit issues, and have declared bankruptcy before. They are really struggling.

When I read this sad testimony, the verse came to mind, "by works of law shall no flesh be justified before Him." -- Rom 3.20

I grew up in Catholicism, and it is so easy to latch onto some church commandment (like going to mass and confession) to soothe the conscience and bribe our heart. How many other families have been damaged by such legalities?

NFNL, your research on Tithing is eye-opening. It never existed in the early church, then it got twisted and revived to support Rome? Do you have any idea how much gold is owned by the Vatican?!?

Btw, back in the mid-80's during the "new way," WL did propose an increase from 10% to 15% tithing. 10% was for the church, and 5% was for the full-timers. I remember one brother chiding me for offering 10% of net, rather than 10% of gross.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Btw, back in the mid-80's during the "new way," WL did propose an increase from 10% to 15% tithing. 10% was for the church, and 5% was for the full-timers. I remember one brother chiding me for offering 10% of net, rather than 10% of gross.

Wow brother, that fact is itself eye-opening! I wasn't in the LSM church for nearly as long as most who post here - I couldn't honestly say that I'd read a book or heard a teaching one way or the other about it yet; I'd only heard testimonies like I illustrated here to demonstrate it.... but to know that it was a practice taught by Witness Lee, and in fact yet again added to, really shows where the heart of the man was... if the hidden histories don't already demonstrate that clearly enough. That's the whole reason they're hidden, after all: Cover his nakedness! Don't be like Ham and expose him or you'll be cursed! No one can know he is really a drunkard!

The funny thing about that Bible story (Genesis 9:24-27), often used by the leadership in Anaheim to demonstrate how we mustn't ever expose these sins of the past, is that it was Noah and not God who laid a curse on Ham, his own son. And Noah cursed his son because his son offended his pride. Further, God did more than expose Noah's nakedness to Noah's children, He permanently recorded the incident FOREVER in His Word: Noah's nakedness has been exposed to Billions of people for now and forever.

God says a lot about the proud in His Word, doesn't He?

Job 40:12
Look at every proud man and humble him, crush the wicked where they stand.

Psalms 37:11
But the meek will inherit the land and enjoy great peace

Psalms 119:21
You rebuke the arrogant, who are cursed and who stray from your commands.

Psalms 131:1
My heart is not proud, O LORD, my eyes are not haughty; I do not concern myself with great matters or things too wonderful for me.

Psalms 138:6
Though the LORD is on high, he looks upon the lowly, but the proud he knows from afar.

Psalms 147:6
The LORD sustains the humble but casts the wicked to the ground.

Psalms 149:4
For the LORD takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with salvation.

Proverbs 3:34
He mocks proud mockers but gives grace to the humble.

Proverbs 8:13
To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.

Proverbs 10:8
The wise in heart accept commands, but a chattering fool comes to ruin.

Proverbs 11:2
When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.

Proverbs 15:31;33
He who listens to a life-giving rebuke will be at home among the wise.The fear of the LORD teaches a man wisdom, and humility comes before honor.

Proverbs 16:18-19
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud.

Proverbs 18:12
Before his downfall a man's heart is proud, but humility comes before honor.

Proverbs 21:4
Haughty eyes and a proud heart, the lamp of the wicked, are sin!

Proverbs 22:4
Humility and the fear of the LORD bring wealth and honor and life.

Proverbs 25:9
He guides the humble in what is right and teaches them his way.

Proverbs 26:12
Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him..

Proverbs 27:2
Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; someone else, and not your own lips.

Proverbs 28:25-26
A greedy man stirs up dissension, but he who trusts in the LORD will prosper. He who trusts in himself is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom is kept safe.

Proverbs 29:23
A man's pride brings him low, but a man of lowly spirit gains honor.

Proverbs 30:32
If you have played the fool and exalted yourself, or if you have planned evil, clap your hand over your mouth!

Isaiah 5:21
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.

Isaiah 66:2
Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?" declares the LORD. "This is the one I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word."

Micah 6:8
He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

Matthew 18:3-4
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 23:12
For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Luke 1:52
He has brought down rulers from their thrones but has lifted up the humble.

Luke 16:15
He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight."

Mark 9:35
Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all."

John 5:44
How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

Romans 12:16
Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

1 Corinthians 1:28
He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are

1 Corinthians 3:18
Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise.

1 Corinthians 13:4
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

2 Corinthians 10:17-18
Let him who boasts boast in the Lord. For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.

2 Corinthians 11:30
If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.

Galatians 5:25-26
Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Galatians 5:25-26
Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Galatians 6:14
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Ephesians 4:2
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.

Colossions 3:12
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

James 4:6
But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

(the above verses kindly supplied by "Bible Verses about Pride", at http://www.bible-verses-by-subject.i...bout-pride.htm)

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

[countmeworthy]

Hi NFNL,

You wrote:

The funny thing about that Bible story (Genesis 9:24-27), often used by the leadership in Anaheim to demonstrate how we mustn't ever expose these sins of the past, is that it was Noah and not God who laid a curse on Ham, his own son. And Noah cursed his son because his son offended his pride.

Not to take away anything from the topic at hand, but in recent years, I've learned Noah did not curse his son Ham. Noah curses his grandson Canaan. He is Ham's youngest son Yet, like you and many others, I was taught God cursed Ham.

And as you pointed out, it was Noah who cursed not God.

But the curse actually skipped Ham. (not to say Ham didn't escape his father's wrath!)
It is significant why Noah did this but that topic of discussion (the curse) does not pertain to this thread. I Just wanted to clarify the scriptures you brought out as they are penned. I'm not trying to step on your toes. Hope you don't mind me pointing them out. Here are the scriptures:

18 Now the sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem and Ham and Japheth; and Ham was the father of Canaan.


24 When Noah awoke from his wine, and knew the thing which his youngest son had done to him,

25 He exclaimed, Cursed be Canaan! He shall be the servant of servants to his brethren!

Carol

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Wow brother, that fact is itself eye-opening! I wasn't in the LSM church for nearly as long as most who post here - I couldn't honestly say that I'd read a book or heard a teaching one way or the other about it yet; I'd only heard testimonies like I illustrated here to demonstrate it.... but to know that it was a practice taught by Witness Lee, and in fact yet again added to, really shows where the heart of the man was... if the hidden histories don't already demonstrate that clearly enough. That's the whole reason they're hidden, after all: Cover his nakedness! Don't be like Ham and expose him or you'll be cursed! No one can know he is really a drunkard!

The funny thing about that Bible story (Genesis 9:24-27), often used by the leadership in Anaheim to demonstrate how we mustn't ever expose these sins of the past, is that it was Noah and not God who laid a curse on Ham, his own son. And Noah cursed his son because his son offended his pride. Further, God did more than expose Noah's nakedness to Noah's children, He permanently recorded the incident FOREVER in His Word: Noah's nakedness has been exposed to Billions of people for now and forever.

Actually, the 10% tithing quota was rarely mentioned until this time. It was that extra 5% which was stressed at the time, and thus, it was implied to all that their 10% was already being given.

That 5% was often discussed. WL wanted, on an average, 1 of 20 in every church to serve full-time. Some churches had more, and some had less, so funds were established to collect from the churches and distribute to the full-timers. It was a crazy math. When the numbers were tallied, and yes questionnaires were sent out to all the churches, the number in the Lord's Table meeting was used. That included students, women, and children. LSM published a book at the time with all the numbers.

WL would say that "19 could support one," but think about it. Out of that 19, possibly only a handful were professionally employed. And that "one" could be a family with children. I always found it hard to believe that as a former accountant, WL's full-timer math created an impossible church burden. But since none of us were entitled to an "opinion" only WL's word was heard, and our role was to be faithful to carry it out.

Looking back, the call for full-timers was more about wresting control from all the elders than it was about the evangelization of the whole earth. The full-timers needed LSM to "train" them, and LSM need all the church's money to support them.

And, by the way, Noah cursed Canaan and not Ham. I do believe that there is much more to that story than we were taught, and speculations abound ...

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And, by the way, Noah cursed Canaan and not Ham. I do believe that there is much more to that story than we were taught, and speculations abound ...

Amen brother! I see I need to spend more time in the Word myself!