Greetings from an LC member!

[Trusting]

Greetings saints,

Long time lurker, and I mean a very long time on this forum. I am still an LC member but have been interested in the history of the Lord's recovery. From reading all these posts on the forum, I realised that there seems to be two perspectives on what happened in the history, which have brought confusion, especially to me. Yet, what's done has been done and it can never changed. All we can do now is move on and if there has been some wrongdoing on both sides, I really pray there can be reconciliation, so we all can get on with doing the Lord's work.

My experience being in the LC have been overwhelmingly positive. There is a real sense of brotherly love and the desire to be built up together and enjoy the Lord together, we are encouraged to read the Word (any Bible version, not just the Recovery, all up to you), we read the ministry but there is no restriction on what you can read, but we are encouraged to compare everything to scripture. The only fault I would say could be that some saints can become overly zealous, especially towards the ministry, which can be off putting to some.

I understand some members here have negative experiences in the LC which have caused them to doubt or even leave, but this is just my experience where ever I went. Maybe the attitudes have changed a little, if not among those up there, then among the common LC people, or if not, then in my particular locality?

But I know that for some members back in those days, there was the real and sweet enjoyment of the Lord. For those who fall in that category (old that is ), I want to know what it was like, and what happened in history that caused all this to change? The history seems to cause contention for some reason, but I want to understand why it is so (admittingly, the LC history is a small stumbling block for me).

Also, if anyone has a recording/audio of Witness Lee's final message before he went to the Lord, can you link it to me or send it to me? I read a post on here about how the literal transcript and the edited transcript seem to give completely different ideas. I want to hear it myself. Chinese or English dubbed are fine, I understand both.

Much blessings to everyone. I might become more of a lurker than a poster but we will see. God bless!

[Ohio]

Welcome to the forum Trusting!

Which part of LC history seems to be a "small stumbling block" for you? There have been a number of times in LC history where the actual story completely contradicted the published story.

Like you, I have always tried to differentiate between the precious saints in the LC's and the damaging actions of their leaders, especially at LSM.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Trusting

Also, if anyone has a recording/audio of Witness Lee's final message before he went to the Lord, can you link it to me or send it to me? I read a post on here about how the literal transcript and the edited transcript seem to give completely different ideas. I want to hear it myself. Chinese or English dubbed are fine, I understand both.

Welcome to LocalChurchDiscussions.Com! We all look forward to hearing more about your testimony and experience, especially any positive experiences you have had.

Here is what I believe to be a video of the message in question. Lee is speaking in Chinese. It is 6 minutes long.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83oQlzUQmcU

Here is a polemic paper posted on the www.concernedbrothers.com website
http://www.concernedbrothers.com/rep...edTheMark4.pdf

Trusting,
Most of the forum members here do not speak or understand Chinese. Please feel free to listen to this video and then give us your take/understanding of just exactly what Witness Lee said.
-

[Cal]

Hello Trusting!

Here is a translation into English from the Spanish of the message given by Witness Lee which UntoHim referenced. This is where he repents for condemning those outside of the LCs.

The third part of the message is about reigning in life and imitating the apostles. Listen. We must imitate the apostles and follow in their steps to bring churches of different localities into the fellowship of the Body, and bring all the saints into the unity of the Body of Christ.

Do not reject or judge others based on the law of religion or any other things which have nothing to do with our fundamental faith. All of us must learn about this: myself, the co-workers, and the responsible ones, the brothers and sisters, they must open their eyes. This is something we really need to learn. In the past, we have done wrong on these things, myself included. (Lee physically points to himself.) For this reason, I repented deeply to the Lord. I’m sorry. I’m sorry to the Body of Christ, to the brothers and sisters among us, but also to those in the denominations. You must take this message back to study and share again and again. You will see that we were wrong in the past.

Clearly, denominating is wrong, because division is something condemned by God. But the Lord desires that none of his children have this guilt of division. Sufficient effort will be needed to understand and spread this. I say that some of you must come together to study, pray and speak. This I wish and want you to do. This means to receive people according to the Son of God, the One who does not take sides. On one side are the Jews. On the other side are the believers chosen by God. God has no preference.

I would like to read to you “Christ came to be servant to the circumcision according to the truth of God, to confirm the promises given to the fathers, and for the Gentiles, to glorify His mercy." What is it to glorify God? It is to participate in the New Jerusalem. Right? For us to participate in the New Jerusalem is to glorify God in the universe.

[Koinonia]

Welcome, Trusting! I hope you find some answers here, as well as fellowship. I relate to your experience, as I was in the same place as you in the past. I would just say that your assessments of the LC come across to me as a bit too rosy. For example, you say, "we read the ministry but there is no restriction on what you can read." I know that LC members like to repeat assertions like this. But what would actually happen if you actually did read ministry from other writers? What if you were to share from other teachers in a meeting, or suggested reading a book in a home meeting, etc.? What would happen? If you are honest with yourself, you would have to admit that the answer indicates there is restriction.

Also a fellow Chinese/English-speaker here. If you go to the recording that others have shared, you will find the audio quite clear. At the 2:28 mark, brother Lee says, "I hurt people" (我疼人). And, "I had a very painful repentance" (有很疼敷的悔改), "Now, I'm sorry, now I'm sorry to the body of Christ" (现在对不起, 现在对不起基督身体).

I don't have time right now to transcribe the whole thing (and I believe there is some kind of comparison out there, comparing the published version with the actual spoken statement), but brother Lee clearly remorse over divisiveness toward other believers.

Let us know if you have any thoughts after listening to the audio.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Witness Lee: "Clearly, denominating is wrong, because division is something condemned by God. But the Lord desires that none of his children have this guilt of division. Sufficient effort will be needed to understand and spread this. I say that some of you must come together to study, pray and speak. This I wish and want you to do. This means to receive people according to the Son of God, the One who does not take sides. On one side are the Jews. On the other side are the believers chosen by God. God has no preference.

I would like to read to you “Christ came to be servant to the circumcision according to the truth of God, to confirm the promises given to the fathers, and for the Gentiles, to glorify His mercy." What is it to glorify God? It is to participate in the New Jerusalem. Right? For us to participate in the New Jerusalem is to glorify God in the universe."

Thank you Trusting for the introduction and the topic. I think Romans 15 is worth quoting in depth. I've bolded the part that Witness Lee quoted, plus sections that provide necessary context to what Paul was getting at there (else we create our own meaning).

Romans 15:5 May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you the same attitude of mind toward each other that Christ Jesus had, 6 so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed 9 and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written:

“Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
I will sing the praises of your name.”

10 Again, it says,

“Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people.”

11 And again,

“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles;
let all the peoples extol him.”

12 And again, Isaiah says,

“The Root of Jesse will spring up,
one who will arise to rule over the nations;
in him the Gentiles will hope.”

13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

14 I myself am convinced, my brothers and sisters, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with knowledge and competent to instruct one another. 15 Yet I have written you quite boldly on some points to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me 16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles. He gave me the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

17 Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God. 18 I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— 19 by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ. 20 It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation.

21 Rather, as it is written:

“Those who were not told about him will see,
and those who have not heard will understand.”

22 This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you.

23 But now that there is no more place for me to work in these regions, and since I have been longing for many years to visit you, 24 I plan to do so when I go to Spain. I hope to see you while passing through and to have you assist me on my journey there, after I have enjoyed your company for a while. 25 Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the Lord’s people there. 26 For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the Lord’s people in Jerusalem. 27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings. 28 So after I have completed this task and have made sure that they have received this contribution, I will go to Spain and visit you on the way. 29 I know that when I come to you, I will come in the full measure of the blessing of Christ.

30 I urge you, brothers and sisters, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me. 31 Pray that I may be kept safe from the unbelievers in Judea and that the contribution I take to Jerusalem may be favorably received by the Lord’s people there, 32 so that I may come to you with joy, by God’s will, and in your company be refreshed. 33 The God of peace be with you all. Amen.

The topic is that the Gentiles have now been invited to the Kingdom of God through the Fellowship of Faith in Jesus Christ, and now have an opportunity for practical fellowship, through Paul's hand, to the poor of Jerusalem. It's a topic of some import for Paul (Gal 2:10; Acts 24:17; 1 Cor 16:1-4; 2 Cor 8:1-9:15), and typically missed by preachers like Witness Lee, who cared little for the poor.

And this is not some temporary hobby of Paul's, without wider meaning: look at the end of the Bible, where the Gentiles (Gk, 'ethnoi', or nations) walk in the light of the NJ and their kings bring 'glory' into it (Rev 21:24,26). WL thought these were unbelievers (!!) who somehow made it through both the tribulation and the Great White Throne (!!!) and now had eternal life (!!!) outside the NJ.

Now, I know the thread's focus is Witness Lee's last published thoughts. We're not here suggesting to send $$ to the poor of Jerusalem (though we don't discourage it either); rather to show how easily scripture can be de-contextualised and re-appropriated for ignorant and selfish ends.

If the believing Gentiles were received by the Jews (through Paul'sministry), they should receive one another, and receive the Jews (via gifts and supporting Paul). That's the point of Rom 15 and WL was repenting that he'd mis-aimed and caused harm. But his follower RK told us with a stout face that he wasn't going to build any bridges to "the denominations". Yet Paul was doing nothing there but building them! Yet RK wanted what WL called "the guilt of division" to be shoveled high, to be a yawning gap between "the recovery" and fellow believers. To say nothing of the Gentiles and the Jews, Paul's original topic!

How did we get so far from God's revealed intent and good pleasure? Is the Bible now so passe, so outdated, that we re-invent it thus? Or were Paul (and John) so off the mark that they had to be re-interpreted so imaginatively?

[Trusting]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Welcome to the forum Trusting!

Which part of LC history seems to be a "small stumbling block" for you? There have been a number of times in LC history where the actual story completely contradicted the published story.

Like you, I have always tried to differentiate between the precious saints in the LC's and the damaging actions of their leaders, especially at LSM.

Probably that there are various and perhaps completely different perspectives of the same history which confuses me a little. But I guess it is expected when asking for two different people's perspective.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Trusting,
Most of the forum members here do not speak or understand Chinese. Please feel free to listen to this video and then give us your take/understanding of just exactly what Witness Lee said.
-

I think the translation brother Igzy gave is accurate enough. He did admit and repent for the wrong that he did, in particular, on the matter or rejecting, condemning or judging believers on matters not fundamental to the faith, causing division as a result. It was sincere, and what he said is valuable to learn from. It is fairly clear here, although whether his repentance also includes his other past mistakes too is for speculation. Although, on this matter, since he had sincerely repented, I do forgive him for that. What he said is very true. As I understand every believer becomes part of the Body of Christ, and on that basis, we should accept and have fellowship with them. A brother in China explained this clearly to me when I was fellowshipping with him on this matter.

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Welcome, Trusting! I hope you find some answers here, as well as fellowship. I relate to your experience, as I was in the same place as you in the past. I would just say that your assessments of the LC come across to me as a bit too rosy. For example, you say, "we read the ministry but there is no restriction on what you can read." I know that LC members like to repeat assertions like this. But what would actually happen if you actually did read ministry from other writers? What if you were to share from other teachers in a meeting, or suggested reading a book in a home meeting, etc.? What would happen? If you are honest with yourself, you would have to admit that the answer indicates there is restriction.

This is my experience after all. In the meetings, yes we do read from LSM ministry materials, but in my personal time, I enjoy reading from other anointed Christian authors (C.S Lewis, Timothy Keller, Kenneth Hagin to name a few), and I gain a lot from them too. The anointing is not only in LSM ministries, but in other ministries as well, just different aspects of the same anointing. It keeps me balanced as well. I haven't had any restriction, then maybe they should watch the video of Witness Lee repenting and hear what he says and learn from that. I have personally received help from the ministry which I am thankful for, so I am happy to share this ministry with others.

On a side note, I mentioned it before, but I am interesting in hearing stories from the oldies (if I can say that) about the good old days, the really enjoyable and on fire times that were had in the Lord's recovery, then what changed.

Much grace to all!

[Kevin]

I actually see no bearing fruit of genuine repentance from Lee's mistake until now. It's only gotten worse, especially the LC leaders who incited a spirit of condemnation towards denominations. This instance is not only happening in my locality, but I have witnessed to it several times from other localities as well. The matter of reading other ministries is unfortunately restricted tho, but only in the parameters of LSM publications.

I have never seen in any LC Facebook groups where LCers posted posts from other ministries.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Trusting

Greetings saints,
Long time lurker, and I mean a very long time on this forum. I am still an LC member but have been interested in the history of the Lord's recovery. From reading all these posts on the forum, I realised that there seems to be two perspectives on what happened in the history, which have brought confusion, especially to me. Yet, what's done has been done and it can never changed. All we can do now is move on and if there has been some wrongdoing on both sides, I really pray there can be reconciliation, so we all can get on with doing the Lord's work.

As a "very long time" lurker on this forum, you may recall the many LC members who have posted a message similar to yours. That is "what's done has been done", "it can never change", "move on" and "My experience being in the LC have been overwhelmingly positive."

It's easy to dismiss the pain of others when you are not in pain yourself. Yet you have "a real sense of brotherly love" and "a desire to be built up together"! What's wrong with this picture?

My experience being in the LC have been overwhelmingly positive. There is a real sense of brotherly love and the desire to be built up together and enjoy the Lord together, we are encouraged to read the Word (any Bible version, not just the Recovery, all up to you), we read the ministry but there is no restriction on what you can read, but we are encouraged to compare everything to scripture. The only fault I would say could be that some saints can become overly zealous, especially towards the ministry, which can be off putting to some.

I understand some members here have negative experiences in the LC which have caused them to doubt or even leave, but this is just my experience where ever I went. Maybe the attitudes have changed a little, if not among those up there, then among the common LC people, or if not, then in my particular locality?

But I know that for some members back in those days, there was the real and sweet enjoyment of the Lord. For those who fall in that category (old that is ), I want to know what it was like, and what happened in history that caused all this to change? The history seems to cause contention for some reason, but I want to understand why it is so (admittingly, the LC history is a small stumbling block for me).

In the late '70's, it seemed the Word was anointed...like nothing I had ever experienced. The Word was being shared by the brothers speaking in the meetings and it was rich. Two brothers would stand together to speak. When one finished the other continued the same message...two hours on Sunday morning. When the sharing ended, we exhaled...it can't be time to go! I often had the feeling of sitting on the edge of my seat.

Previously, what was spoken and what I heard was "truth" and truth has a "ring".

What changed? The speaking in the meetings became Lee's ministry and no longer had the ring of truth in the Word. Yet we were taught to testify and pretend otherwise...sweet and enjoyable were the words they used. Regardless, it ended. Lee was elevated above the Word and took credit for having the goods.

Lee's ministry did not have "truth" at its heart. No more "ring". I know this because after years of questioning, I remembered what I heard in the days of truth, and there was a contrast. Lee was saying something different. I chose to stand with the truth that I had heard, learned and experienced.

Lee's ministry was full of discourse, rules and regulations, which the leadership hammered us with and openly taught...did not exist. This brought in the days of "unwritten rules" and a warning not to break the rules that did not exist.

Some of the rules:

1. You're fine as long as you do as you are told and...
2. Don't ask questions. A question mark is like a snake. ???
3. If you have a problem, YOU ARE the problem.
4. Even if Witness Lee is wrong, he is right.
5. You don't need to read the Bible. Read Lee. He "predigested" the Word for you.
6. If you take care of the church, God will take care of your family.
7. Drop your opinions. Here we have no opinions.
8. It's not about "Right and Wrong".
9. Christianity is degraded.
10. There is only one church and we are IT.
11. We are becoming God.
12. Hypocrisy is not hypocrisy when the LC does it.

I'm sure others can add to this list.

I don't know why you want to hear Lee's words renouncing his own practices/ministry, but if you need to "hear it from him" but disregard the fruit of his ministry...to tell those he hurt to "move on", etc., I think that's a problem.

Nell

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Trusting

He did admit and repent for the wrong that he did, in particular, on the matter or rejecting, condemning or judging believers on matters not fundamental to the faith, causing division as a result. It was sincere, and what he said is valuable to learn from...............Although, on this matter, since he had sincerely repented, I do forgive him for that. What he said is very true. As I understand every believer becomes part of the Body of Christ, and on that basis, we should accept and have fellowship with them.

They haven’t learned yet since this divisive material is currently still taught in the FTTA online.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Betsy

They haven’t learned yet since this divisive material is currently still taught in the FTTA online.

Hi Betsy,

Thanks for posting. I may be alone, but I didn’t know there was such a thing as FTTA online. I checked out the website briefly. What to say...

Nell

[Cal]

Trusting,

The fact is the LR has a very muddled relationship with true oneness. True oneness means receiving every believer according to Christ without doubt or disputations.

The LR has gone beyond what the word teaches in establishing its sectarian view on oneness. Members such as yourself can seen the duplicity, but are (understandably) ambivalent about what to do about it. One the one hand, you enjoy your church life, on the other hand, you see the hypocrisy.

If your leaders were honest and forthright and led according to the New Testament, they would humbly go out of their way to answer all public questions about the movement's highly suspicious history of sectarian and abusive practices.

But they are nothing like this. They have two-faces (at least). One which preaches mushy platitudes about oneness and receiving, and another which ruthlessly deals with anyone who rocks their boat. I tremble for those brothers when I think about what the Lord will say to them.

Many Catholics enjoy blessing in their individual churches. I have attended Catholic services where I sensed the presence of the Lord. But none of that excuses the history of Catholic leadership denying and covering up their sins at the expense of the victims. The same goes for the LR.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trusting

Greetings saints,

Long time lurker, and I mean a very long time on this forum. I am still an LC member but have been interested in the history of the Lord's recovery. From reading all these posts on the forum, I realised that there seems to be two perspectives on what happened in the history, which have brought confusion, especially to me. Yet, what's done has been done and it can never changed. All we can do now is move on and if there has been some wrongdoing on both sides, I really pray there can be reconciliation, so we all can get on with doing the Lord's work.

But I know that for some members back in those days, there was the real and sweet enjoyment of the Lord. For those who fall in that category (old that is ), I want to know what it was like, and what happened in history that caused all this to change? The history seems to cause contention for some reason, but I want to understand why it is so (admittingly, the LC history is a small stumbling block for me).

Also, if anyone has a recording/audio of Witness Lee's final message before he went to the Lord, can you link it to me or send it to me? I read a post on here about how the literal transcript and the edited transcript seem to give completely different ideas. I want to hear it myself. Chinese or English dubbed are fine, I understand both.

Much blessings to everyone. I might become more of a lurker than a poster but we will see. God bless!

Since Witness Lee's so-called "final repentance" was so vague, with so little detail, no one really knew what to make of it, and hence it was open to multiple interpretations, some of these self-serving. The Concerned Brothers website had a few articles on this final message by W. Lee. Since you can read Chinese, I have posted these too.

1. "Brother Lee's repentance for his offense to the Body of Christ - the differences between the transcription, the polished transcription, the printed version, and its interpretation."

2. "Brother Lee's repentance for his offense to the Body of Christ - wrong interpretations by www.AFaithfulWord.com based on the modified printed version by LSM."

3. "Brother Lee’s Spirit of Painful Repentance and Solemn Charge in His Final Public Message – Why did we totally miss the mark?"

4. "The brave would admit their mistakes; the wise won't repeat the same mistakes."

[Cal]

I can't read Chinese, but the English-writing brother still didn't get it. Division is wrong, period, and the LR was just as guilty of it as anyone and more guilty than most. That's what Lee was beginning to see.

Lee was actually fudging a bit. He knew the Lord had convicted him of being divisive, but there was still a part in him that wanted to justify his prior attitude and behavior. So he mentioned that denominations are wrong and condemned. This is sort of like saying that the driver you beat up for cutting you off was wrong to cut you off. It's true but misleading.

I think if Lee had lived he might have had a fuller repentance and given a more clear message in English. Perhaps the BBs limited him for fear of this. It does seem his encounter with cancer and mortality humbled him a bit.

[Ohio]

From the paper by "Sober Mind" ...

"(Concerning the matter of receiving people according to God),...we co-workers in every place all need to learn, the responsible ones in every place all need to learn, the brothers and sisters in every place all need to learn..., too many things cause us to learn. We all made mistakes in this matter in the past, I myself included;" -- From Witness Lee's last message.

If this was supposed to be a repentance, it really disturbs me. What does it mean, "the matter of receiving people according to God?" Sounds to me like someone knocked on his front door, and he was too busy for them. Not so serious. I've done that too. I treat telemarketeers the same way.

Is "receiving people" supposed to be "mistreating people?" In this I would include public shaming, using partiality and prejudice, even slander and libel, fabricating falsehoods, allowing his boys to abuse others, etc.

Then Witness Lee says, "we all need to learn." If we all learned bad habits from WL, should he not repent for teaching us wrongly? WL loved to take credit for all of our good, but concerning the bad, we then need to share in his mistakes? When the man of the house really screws up, do the children also need to repent?

I seem to remember many, many times Titus Chu and other Midwest brothers trying to correct some of Lee's bad habits and teachings before they reached the area LC's. This was a very dangerous enterprise, since many "spies" reported this, Lee took it personally, and often retaliated against TC publicly. I should note that TC never picked up WL's nasty habit of bashing all Christianity. (TC bashed his own people, but that's beside the point.)

Should TC and the rest of the Midwest then share in Lee's remorse, knowing that to some degree we tried to "correct" him?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Then Witness Lee says, "we all need to learn." If we all learned bad habits from WL, should he not repent for teaching us wrongly? WL loved to take credit for all of our good, but concerning the bad, we then need to share in his mistakes? When the man of the house really screws up, do the children also need to repent?

Lee was a monster of his own creation. On the one hand he needed a full and complete repentance and confession. On the other he felt he needed to maintain his image and that of "the Recovery," which are much the same thing. He saw himself and his movement as "too big to fail,' which opened the door to all kinds of compromises, which continue to this day.

Unique status brings unique privileges, which in spiritual matters almost never produces good fruit. That's one reason why God doesn't give anyone or anything unique status, which is one reason "the Recovery" is in principle invalid.

On that stage was actually a confused person, caught between conscience and perceived mission, mortality and greatness, simplicity and complication.

Hi everyone,

This the the original user Trusting who posted back in April 2019 after lurking for a while. I tried to login to my account but sadly, I forgot my password, and the forgot password function wasn't working (I tried last night), so I am posting this as an Unregistered user for now.

To describe my current situation in regards to the Local Church, I would still say that I am an LC member, but I have stopped meeting. I am not sure anymore about the group. I am even worried that it might be a cult. But I have not completely cut ties off with them, as I have friends in the group which I still contact from time to time.

Now I don't want this to be about doctrine, even though I mentioned concerns about it being a cult. There is enough information out there to be of concern. However, I just wanted to share my experience and what the years being in the LC has done to me.

In summary, I am a guy that is messed up. My mental health has declined significantly. I feel depressed and despondent. I feel constant fear of what God might do to me, since I failed God by potentially not being an overcomer, or not being absolute enough for him, or may face the 1000 year discipline in darkness.

Yes, they would say just repent and come back to God and continue meeting and being with the saints, but it would just be groundhog day again. Honestly, I could never be myself. That was discouraged anyway because the self was bad, and my self had to be crucified so I can express Christ. No room for personality. That is probably why I have a really bad issue with self-loathing and self hatred. I would always have to put on a front, especially on the Lord's Table. Goodness knows if I told them the truth about what I am going through. I would get the looks from everyone. So smile and say that I am good... Say Amen and Praise the Lord...

Regarding the practices, honestly, I had always felt something was off, but I kept pushing through. I've realised though that if you were an outsider, you would find some of the practices strange. For example, the pray-reading, repeating the hymnal verses, the calling on the name of the Lord, the terms used such as blending and mingling and eating and drinking. You don't really hear that anywhere else. Even if it is completely Biblical, it is just strange. I mean, why can't we invite them to church directly, rather than ease them in slowly? I've never been able to because I felt shame in what I did that I just coped with.

And if I don't do these things, then I am too much in the self... And if I question it, then I am expressing too much opinion perhaps... I have to just focus on eating and drinking Christ.

Even regarding the standing on the ground of oneness, or one city one church, or saying we are not a denomination, or saying we can look at other materials other than LSM materials, no matter how much we say we practice this and pursue after it, in the end, the real practice is a bit of exclusivism, it is difficult to fellowship with other Christians properly. I felt a sense of elitism, thinking I have the peak truth, standing on the ground of oneness etc. I noticed a bit of hypocrisy as well. I would only reading from LSM and nothing else. Only the Lord's Recovery Bible version, the Morning Revivals at Lord's Table and LSM material at Bible Studies.

Anyway, that is enough from me. I just wanted to get this out, because there were many nights where I would worry about this, whether this is right? I am finding it hard to let go of these things.

I'm even scared to share this, because in my mind, this would potentially make me a tool of Satan, or this will stumble the saints or poison them in some way, or I will receive judgement from God for doing this, especially if there are errors or mistakes.

I look back at what I have posted, and feel some regret. Yes, I have had positive experiences, but after seeing the criticism from outside and the type of response we have given, I feel there is something wrong, and no positive experience, no matter how good it is, can detract from that.

My stomach feels like it is dropping as I am writing this and posting it. I hope this is okay... Deep down, I just want to be my authentic self again and be genuinely happy. I believe that denying yourself to the point you have no personality and no uniqueness is wrong, and just leads to self loathing and self hatred and denies the fact that you are uniquely made in God's image. I've taken up therapy recently to deal with this.

This is just my experience. If I get anything wrong, I apologise...

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Trusting-

Hi everyone, To describe my current situation in regards to the Local Church, I would still say that I am an LC member, but I have stopped meeting. I am not sure anymore about the group. I am even worried that it might be a cult. But I have not completely cut ties off with them, as I have friends in the group which I still contact from time to time.

IWOW Trusting,
I just scrolled all the way down and read your first post to this forum on this thread.

What a big difference in your (written) countenance of 2019 to today (2024). It sure does appear the LSM is taking a toll on you. I am saddened by the emotional torment you are going through. I am sure everyone here has felt your pain as we were all there at some point. Some experienced more trauma than others. I think this is one of many reasons this forum exists. To let people like yourself you are not alone.

There is nothing to apologize for what you are and have been going through.

The escape from this torment is run to Jesus. The REAL JESUS who SAVED YOU , Who shed His Precious Blood that takes away your guilt, your shame. Run TO HIM Not away from Him.

Remember He came that you, YOU PERSONALLY would have Life, be filled with LOVE and have it more abundantly. (John 10:10) Satan, the enemy is out to kill, steal and destroy. Destroy what? Your mental health. Your Joy for Living, Your Joy in the Lord. He’s out to steal friends, family, finances, health from you.

Jesus will never leave you OR forsake you (Hebrews23:5) NEVER! In your darkest hour, Jesus will embrace you and love on you. He will put a smile on your face and even make you chuckle or laugh out loud. Laughter is good medicine for the soul.

Talk to Jesus from your heart. His Holy Spirit will comfort you. I know as we all know, His Holy Spirit is leading you out of the LSM. You have to TRUST Him. Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lead not unto your own understanding. He is leading you to green pastures to rest your weary soul.

God LOVES YOU. YOU are very special to Him. Tell Him to heal your mind and He will impart into you “ newness of Life”. Tell Him to take away your fear, your insecurity your depression. HE WILL do it because God is a Promise Keeper!!

Tell Him to fill you with the Joy of the LORD. The Joy of the Lord will give you Strength to get away from the LSM altogether. Tell him to bless you with good and Godly NONJUDGMENTAL friends o

On a “practical” note, I don’t know where you live or what your physical health is like. But I will recommend physical exercise, walking, riding a bicycle, swimming and get a lovable pet. �� Eat more fruits and veggies, red meat and fish Refrain from fast foods as much as you can.

Watch a wholesome funny movie or a funny tv show.

I hope I gave you some encouragement.

May the Lord direct your path and direct your heart quickly and speedily for HE is a GOOD GOD. May He shower you with His Love and fill you with the Peace of God which surpasses all understanding through Christ Jesus. May He shower you with blessings upon blessings as He heals your wounds and restores your health. Amen

Carol G

Thank you for your kind words. I am doing my best to look after myself. I often feel guilt. If I am doing things I like, then the guilt comes in because that might be worldly. Or if I look at other Christian material, even Catholicism, then the guilt comes because then I have fallen to degraded Christianity. Or even if I follow and do what LC says, then the guilt is still there, because maybe I am not doing it enough, or I feel something is off and I shouldn't feel that way. If I am bored at the meetings because it is so repetitive and basically going through the same motions, having to share my enjoyment, even though I'm not enjoying it, then that's wrong to feel that way and the guilt comes in.

I'm not sure anymore. I guess I was supposed to become a normal Christian, but I have become even more abnormal.

I guess the main reason I posted before because I feel in bondage and I've lost what it means to be me, and I have actual concerns but find it hard to even bring it up, because I might be labelled a particular way. I feel a lot of fear leaving. I hear the stories about the Christians who left LC and bad things happen. Or if I leave, then I am forsaking the high truth or the ground. Or if I leave, then the people who looked after me, including while overseas, they would have done it in vain.

To be frank, I really tried my best to follow their teaching, join all the conferences and meetings and connect with the saints, but all it's left me in is in a state of depression, fear and guilt. Maybe I did something wrong...

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Trusting-

To be frank, I really tried my best to follow their teaching, join all the conferences and meetings and connect with the saints, but all it's left me in is in a state of depression, fear and guilt. Maybe I did something wrong...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Makes perfect sense to me - you did nothing wrong, neither are you crazy!

How you described your uncertain journey in the LC leads me to believe that you already ARE a Genuine Normal Christian - but you have been trapped behind enemy lines.

Having spent 35 years in the LC starting in 1974 I had need of a lot of self de-programming and un-spiritualizing of my earthly life. One thing that seemed to help me the most was to examine how other high control groups conducted business in the name of God or Christ.

The JW organization shares many painful similarities with the LC but uses completely different proprietary jargon, and that helped me to spot areas within me which deserved emancipation.

I would recommend you watch a recent documentary exposing JW abuse here:

Rebekan Vardy "Jehovah's Witnesses and Me"
https://archive.org/details/rebekah-...ses-and-me-web

Another new resource that I would highly recommend is the blog by Ruth Wise - https://www.inconvenientruth.com/

You seem to be on a very good path to emancipation - keep pressing forward as you sense the strength to do so. There are also countless helpful voices here on the forum so please stick around...

P.S.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Trusting-

My stomach feels like it is dropping as I am writing this and posting it. I hope this is okay... Deep down, I just want to be my authentic self again and be genuinely happy. I believe that denying yourself to the point you have no personality and no uniqueness is wrong, and just leads to self loathing and self hatred and denies the fact that you are uniquely made in God's image. I've taken up therapy recently to deal with this.

This is just my experience. If I get anything wrong, I apologise...

Welcome back "Trusting"!

Best wishes on your therapy.

As the LC gradually developed into a full blown personality cult, there automatically remained less and less space for anyone who could/would not faithfully mimic the dysfunctional attributes of it's leader - Witness Lee. Christ and the Holy Spirit were apparently jettisoned much earlier without anyone really noticing.

Congratulations on your failure to become a full fledged Lee-Bot!

P.S.

[ThankfulForever777]

Originally Posted by Trusting-

My stomach feels like it is dropping as I am writing this and posting it. I hope this is okay... Deep down, I just want to be my authentic self again and be genuinely happy. I believe that denying yourself to the point you have no personality and no uniqueness is wrong, and just leads to self loathing and self hatred and denies the fact that you are uniquely made in God's image. I've taken up therapy recently to deal with this.

Hi Trusting,
Thank you for sharing your struggles. I was in a similar situation about two years ago after I stopped attending LC.Consider it a blessing and mercy from the Lord that He revealed the truth about LC and rescued you from this deception. It’s important to be patient with yourself as you recover from the damage caused. It took me around two years to recognize that LC was not a true church. The Lord gradually exposed the inconsistencies in their teachings, the hypocrisy, pride, and false doctrines masked as biblical teachings.

Eventually, I realized that Witness Lee and his ministry had become an idol in LC, which was an abomination to God. When I left LC, I repented of my idolatry and spiritual pride and acknowledged my mistakes in judging other Christians and feeling superior. I had fears that God might judge me or that I would face misfortune, but these fears were the result of years of manipulation in LC, not from God. Over time, I discovered that much of LC’s teachings were a mix of truth and falsehood.

Daily Bible reading was a great source of encouragement and strength for me, and I recommend it to you as well. I joined an evangelical church and shared my experiences there. I also met with a Christian counselor who confirmed that LC is indeed a cult. Reading books on Christian cults, including those banned by LC, like “Mindbenders” and “God-men,” provided further clarity and confirmation of my experiences. About a year after leaving LC, I took new believer lessons and was baptized in water to reaffirm my commitment to the Lord. I realized that my mental health had been affected by LC and past experiences. The Lord has been healing me slowly, and I’ve learned to be more aware of my emotions and to treat myself with kindness. I stopped harshly criticizing myself and others for minor flaws.

I want to encourage you by saying you’re on the right path, but recovery can be challenging. Many people who leave cults like LC struggle and some even lose their faith. It’s crucial to trust in the Lord and take your recovery seriously and slowly. May our loving Heavenly Father guide you and provide for all your needs during this time.

[Ex-LC-Rosemead]

Originally Posted by Trusting-

To be frank, I really tried my best to follow their teaching, join all the conferences and meetings and connect with the saints, but all it's left me in is in a state of depression, fear and guilt. Maybe I did something wrong...

You did nothing wrong! It might be your conscience working, which is good. The main three things to do is 1, continue reading your bible and not replace it, 2, continue with your prayer life, and 3, seek fellowship with other Christians.

You should also continue asking questions from others and the Lord. And seeking the answers until you are satisfied. The LC is famous for shouting people down just for asking questions. Learn to enjoy yourself, God has made you unique. The transition is slow when leaving the LC. But many books have been written on this subject of mind control. The books that I just finished reading recently were a big help in seeing what happen to me and what to do going forward. The books were as follows:

1. Jane Anderson, The Thread of Gold. This sister exposes the false teachings of the LC and how it affects your mind. Her journey had a lot of suffering, but she came through it and the way she came through it was she never stop reading her bible, she never stopped praying, and she never gave up her fellowship with other Christians. If you want to see the deeps [sic] of Satan operating among Christians, she exposes that for you. That is, you will see Christians living and acting in their mind for the Lord but unable to follow their conscious. Christians living and acting and never understanding the truth in the bible. It is a really sad thing to see but it is occurring today. For example many Christians in the LC "think" they are disciples of the Lord, but actually they have moved from being a disciples of the Lord to disciples of Witness Lee. It is so subtle can not see it unless

2. Lily Hsu, My Unforgettable Memories of Watchmen Nee. This sister gives a first hand account of her experience in the LC in China from 1920 through the 1950's. You are not going to believe that history has repeated it self here in the US. This sister exposes the false teaching of Watchman Nee, discussing the Deputy Authority, Apostle of the Age, Delegate Authority, Minister of the Age, Oneness in meeting on local ground, calling on the name of the Lord, Getting out of your mind and into your spirit, sound familiar? These things were occurring in the early part of the 1900's. She discusses how these teaching replaced the Lord's Authority in their lives. And they ruined so many Christians there in China because the bible was replaced by trainings, conferences and lessons form Watchmen Nee. And the one behind all of this organizing was no other than Witness Lee. Witness Lee was there side by side with Watchmen Nee. They were were called, by the Chinese brothers and sisters, the two Apostles. Anyways this book will help you see the history of the LC and its founding principles that were carried over by Witness Lee to the USA.

[InconvenientRuth]

Hi dear Trusting,

I deeply and thoroughly relate to your words and sentiments.

One thing you mention: "I would still say that I am an LC member, but I have stopped meeting."

My brother said something years ago that was helpful to me, something like, If something is the church, you can't leave. If you can leave something, it's not the church..." Being saved, being in the church... this is a matter of eternal citizenship in God's kingdom... Man doesn't dictate the boundaries of "the" church. God does, and it encompasses all believers.

If anyone can be an "LC member" or non-LC member, versus all of us just being members of the Body of Christ that includes all believers, where is the genuine oneness?

The whole distinguishing of "meeting" and "not meeting" is so unhealthy, but these are/were such common descriptors used, (if one is being honest) carrying criticism and judgment. If you have any fellow member with whom you can be 100% honest and with whom you can pray, you are "meeting." Meeting is being together with other believers, in spirit and truthfulness.... That's my belief and understanding.

Of course, meeting with more believers is extra wonderful... when also in spirit and truthfulness. I got to meet with thousands in Angels Stadium a couple of months ago for a Harvest Crusade that I used to look down on when indentifying as being in "THE (exclusive/superior) church"... Meeting with thousands in that stadium, singing to our wonderful God was truly a foretaste of eternal enjoyment we will share!

I'm available to meet with you and all believers any time possible!
Ruth Wise, ruthewise@gmail.com