My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...

UntoHim · 03-19-2011, 08:28 PM

NeitherFirstnorLast,

Unfortunately for me, I can relate to your situation. Sometimes it can feel like you are in between a rock and a hard place. I think you can be assured, eventually, that it was God that put you in this place. Doesn't seem so pleasant right now, but time has a tendency to clarify things. In the mean time there is some frustration and some hurting to go through. My suggestion would be to turn to the Psalms. King David had enemies - some from without (the nations) and some from within (his own family). Some of the opposition and troubles came from the devil, some of the troubles came of his own doing. So many of the Psalms express both sides of the coin, so to speak. I am NOT saying that what is happening with you fits so neat and tidy into a form, or that what is written their in the Palms is the cure-all to your situation, only that they may give you some needed perspective or insight.

Back a number of years ago, as I was looking back at some similar things the Lord was putting me through, I wrote the following. I really wrote it to myself more than to anyone else, or any group of people.

Please don’t rush right through this, there’s something to this story,
in the end you may find that it’s God Who gets the glory.
The theme of this is not so new, in fact it’s rather old,
you may have heard it once before; all that glitters is not gold.

You need not wonder much for whom this is intended,
for the answer will depend upon who is the most offended.
So you’ll know just who you are if indeed you fit the mold,
of one who has not yet seen; all that glitters is not gold.

Once upon a time our God revealed Himself right to you,
it seemed He cast away your sin and then made all things new.
Praise Him! For this really did take place just as it’s told,
but while we’re still on this earth; all that glitters is not gold.

So the promises of God are unshakable as earth,
but the promises of man, just take them for what their worth.
The words of man are just words, even spoken loud and bold;
Volume only counts with God; all that glitters is not gold.

Oh never be mistaken not all things are from above,
so be wise as a serpent not just harmless as a dove.
Oh dear saints take careful stock, for the wood and hey you’re sold
will not make it through the fire; all that glitters is not gold

Prophets rise and prophets fall of this we can be sure,
but only time can tell us if their prophecies endure.
Some will build their own kingdom and then leave you in the cold,
take it from someone who knows; all that glitters is not gold.

As prideful as we people are no one thinks they’ve been deceived,
yet His Word says test the spirits, not just any to receive.
A wolf in sheep’s clothing may have brought you to his fold,
better find out late then never; all that glitters is not gold.

So don’t be surprised to learn that you’re under such a spell,
and come to find “the gospel truth” is really just The Gospel!
Now you cannot say to me you’ve never once been told,
the plain and simple truth is; all that glitters is not gold.

NeitherFirstnorLast · 03-20-2011, 08:45 AM

Amen sister,

I got up this morning to prepare breakfast for everyone. One of our dear friends, an older sister from our old locality, was staying with us this weekend...

This morning, I opened up to her. I always thought of her as one I could count on to receive... you see, our old locality was different from many in America. Our old locality (Winnipeg) started after the turmoil in the late 80's, I believe.... I don't know, there isn't a lot of history sharing there...
Regardless, the saints who meet in Winnipeg all came in to the locality about the same time, from the same place, from the same families... They were former Mennonites from Belize; very large families, lots of kids...

I don't know which turmoil it was that tore the church in Winnipeg apart, but because the church in Winnipeg was composed of one very large extended family with lots of intermarriages, the separation that occured (I think 2/3rds left, 1/3rd stayed) was incomplete. No divorces came out of that separation, praise the Lord - fathers and mothers who stayed to meet with the local church counselled their daughters to follow their husbands, even if their husbands chose to leave. While the church was broken, the families largely remained intact... but it seemed that what was born out of this was a conspiracy of silence, in order to maintain the truce (that's my sense of it anyway, since no one on either side ever wished to talk)... and we met with both at large family gatherings, as we were welcomed in as family by those who met in the lc.

Oh Lord, in any case, I did open up today. The reason I opened up is, due to finances and also to fellowship, we need to consider a move - again - and this time to a place where no local church is... to meet with the Christians who we've been fellowshipping with in Three Hills. I'm struggling to choose the right and proper path for my family - seeking the Lord's leading...

I was surprised by this sister, because as I said, I thought she would be open to hear from me due to her own experiences with family who have left... but I was wrong. Very wrong. She told me she "doesn't want to receive this from me", that she sees Christ in me, but she doesn't want anything else. I talked to her about Anaheim, about the speaking about the light going out all across the midwest, about the liberal use of the word 'opposers', about the Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, about John Ingalls, about Bill Mallon, about John So... about genuine saints who love the Lord... about Watchman Nee's true vision of a local church vs what is practiced today, about deputy authority, about building walls, about rejecting members of the Body... actually, in review I said a lot more than I thought I did...

Her take was that I wouldn't be rejected so long as I was open to receive.

Receive what?

Receive what elders would say.

Could we go into the history of the local church?

Why would we go there, the Lord moved on and so should we.

Because the belief within the local church is that Lee's word on the matter is right, that his footnotes are all right, that he is above being questioned, that he is infallible, but he was sinful man.

No one said he was infallible, but what he wrote was divinely inspired. Paul was just a man who wrote letters to the churches, Paul had been a sinful man, but we receive Pau'ls word as the Word of God.

But Paul's word is inspired - God Himself placed it in the Bible. The canon of Scripture is finished. Have you read "The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion?"

I might have. I think I have.

Who was accused of rebelling? Who are we calling opposers? What is it we are saying these people oppose?

Christ. They oppose Christ.

No, they do not, they were not opposed to Christ or the Church, they were opposed to usurped authority.

If you talk to those people on-line they will poison you, that poison will get into you.

No, I didn't see these things after I spoke with them, I saw them before... I finally went on line because I needed to know if it was just me who saw these things.. but it wasn't! I could have written "the Truth in Love", it was exactly my experience. I can't share that, because the only thing we are allowed to share is the ministry word. I had a closer walk with the Lord before I came to the local church than now, when I submit to the authority of others over my own inner speaking.

I choose to receive Lee's word as the Word of God.

But that is my issue - this is what we do and Nee warned us very specifically against this kind of thinking - we're taught that Nee and Lee were one, but they most definitely are not.

What do you mean, give me an example? Ok....

...and I did, I proceeded to outline the very things I've outlined here, from the Orthodoxy of the Church, from the Normal Christian Church Life...

I am afraid for you. Very afraid. I don't want to receive this, sorry. I will receive Christ in you, but I don't want to receive this. All I know is I came out of division, and I'm not going back in. I'm afraid you're going back in.

But how do we differ from a divisive denomination? We are a division. How many times have we divided in the turmoils? We've built high walls, and don't let others in.

We don't have walls, other Christian are welcome to come worship with us.

But they would say the same thing to you. This is not the vision. We have divided on the basis of locality, travelling long distances to meet with those who speak the same thing - that's a division. That is a sect. Have you read the Normal Christian Church Life? Have you seen what it says about what it's supposed to be like... There isn't supposed to be a meeting of saints who speak the same thing. There isn't supposed to be an organized structure or a training center or...

There's not supposed to be a training center? I won't receive that.
...and she left the room.

Even a sister I dearly love, and she closed the matter. Again, like the others to whom I've opened up, she had no scripture to back her way of thinking, her only answer was to receive what the elders would say and reject everything else absolutely (boiling it down, anyway). Don't dig into the past, accept Lee's word as The Word, and move on for the Lord. Eat and enjoy; that's it that's all.

I guess I am too dangerous to talk to. I am infected with a preoccupation for the truth. I always thought the truth would set you free.

It's as you say, sister: All that glitters is not Gold.

Lord, build up Your Church. Lord, we all need You. Preserve us all.

Amen

UntoHim · 03-20-2011, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

She told me she "doesn't want to receive this from me", that she sees Christ in me, but she doesn't want anything else..

Of all the disturbing things here, this one disturbed me the most. This notion that we can only "receive Christ" from each other is neither realistic nor healthy. After all, how much of what we are is "Christ", and how much is still human? This is what I meant by "while we're still on this earth all that glitters is not gold". The apostle Paul made it clear that we are still made up of flesh and blood. Our bodies will be the last thing to be redeemed. For now, it must be enough for God to be life to our souls...our hearts and minds. To not "want anything else" (but Christ) in our fellow believers is to be disingenuous at the very least, and in fact is discounting what the Lord commanded and the apostles taught. "By this shall all men know you are my disciples" - What, that we only see "Christ" in each other? No, that "if you have love one to another". There will be plenty of time to see Christ in each other in the Kingdom to come - for now we are to love one another. This is the "new commandment". Christ is easy to love, He is holy, He is righteous, He is wise, He is beautiful and so lovable... we can always love the "Christ" in each other, no problem. But what about the rest, you know, the %99 percent of us that is not Christ? THIS is the part the the Lord commanded us to love in each other.

Ok, I got off in a tangent again, as I'm want to do.

Oh, by the way, I'm a brudder not a seeestar

NeitherFirstnorLast · 03-20-2011, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Oh, by the way, I'm a brudder not a seeestar

So sorry! Your user name is taken on the Berean's site, and belongs to Jessica Rapoport... Max and Sandee's daughter....

Ray

Hope · 03-21-2011, 05:23 AM

Dear Neitherfirstnorlast,

Qoute:

"Regardless, the saints who meet in Winnipeg all came in to the locality about the same time, from the same place, from the same families... They were former Mennonites from Belize; very large families, lots of kids..."

I have been reading your post for a while. I went to Belize along with John So in the early-mid 80s. Have we ever met?

I chose Hope for my forum name. There is great hope and a bright future for us in the Lord.

May the Lord lead you as you seek Him.

A brother in Christ Jesus

Hope, dfr

NeitherFirstnorLast · 03-21-2011, 08:20 AM

I can honestly say, Hope, that I wish we had met - but I don't think so. I only was introduced to LSM in 2008, and I've never been to Belize. My family was the only fruit brought into that locality in many many years - the remainder there was either born into the LSM church or had come into it decades before... and a few migrated from other places, or married in from other localities....

...Many "accused" me of being ex-Mennonite though, or same as, 'cause of my German heritage - but nope - no blood relation (other than by His blood) to any of those others in Winnipeg!

Ray

OBW · 03-21-2011, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

She told me she "doesn't want to receive this from me", that she sees Christ in me, but she doesn't want anything else.

This really struck a chord with me. If you read through my testimony of my time in the LRC, you will find that this is, rephrased, one of the main reasons we left. My wife and I were having difficulties. And when the whole of the system is based on "know no man in the flesh" and "going to more meetings will fix everything" when it proves to be a pile of rotting wood, you get out. Since the open statements by the leadership in Irving (whether really the whole story or not is irrelevant) said they didn't want to hear about your marital problems, or troubles with your kids, or whatever, then you were on your own. It actually has proven fortunate that even if they would have counseled us that we believed otherwise and got out.

NeitherFirstnorLast · 04-08-2011, 07:55 PM

I am troubled today, because my eldest daughter (age 11) lost a friend.

Friday night is "Home Meeting" night, and my children have enjoyed going because there are many other children there. I have not chosen to attend in some time, but my wife has still gone some lately. Tonight my daughter found out they were no longer invited. Tonight she discovered that her friends aren't allowed to associate with her anymore because we no longer meet with the LSM church. Her friends were told we go to a "Catholic church in Three Hills now", which we do not (not that it matters, really). My daughter told her friend that we don't, and "what does it matter where we go? We're Christians, what does it matter if we don't want Witness Lee as our divine deputy - we can still be friends!" Her friend (also age 11) agreed, but her parents don't feel the same way.

Praise the Lord, it is completely over at last. We are delivered whole from a religious system that lost its way if ever it had found it. How sad though, that children would be cast aside and friendships destroyed over such things as this.

Matthew 18:5-6 "And whoso shall receive one such little child in My name receiveth Me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. "

Lord, have mercy on them. Open their eyes to the full knowledge of the truth. Lord, forgive them - for they know not what they do.

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

04-08-2011, 09:17 PM

Your experience grieves my spirit. I'm not much different from you. Not having met with the local church since last September, but still participating with Friday night home meetings. I've not been received in such a narrow manner your family has been received. Your experience I denote as sectarianism. Receiving which is far narrower that God's receiving of us.
Lord, open their eyes!

NeitherFirstnorLast · 04-11-2011, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Your experience grieves my spirit. I'm not much different from you. Not having met with the local church since last September, but still participating with Friday night home meetings. I've not been received in such a narrow manner your family has been received. Your experience I denote as sectarianism. Receiving which is far narrower that God's receiving of us.
Lord, open their eyes!

Thank you for your prayers. If I may, let me say that my story is far from unique; as you yourself know. The LSM church divides not on matters of Christ, but on matters of 'deputy authority' - making it another division and one which grieves the Lord's heart. Only Christ has authority; and here Christ's authority is usurped by men who would claim His glory for themselves.

There are many people who come here, to this forum, to read what we have to say. Brothers and Sisters, do not be ashamed to post here - even anonymously. Share your testimony - whatever it may be. Share your experience. Don't do it for spite, or for vengeance, or for offense - but for the Lord. Have the courage to share what He has really put on your heart.

If you come here regularly but don't post, then why do you come? Have you come seeking, as I did, to find others who are of like mind and heart; who have seen or heard or felt something corrupt where we were told no corruption could possibly exist? Do not be afraid.

The Lord loves you. He died for you. He rose that you might have everlasting life. He told us "upon this Rock I will build My Church" Matthew 16:18. Do you see that? HE is building His Church; He hasn't subcontracted that job to anyone else.

NeitherFirstnorLast

Ohio · 04-12-2011, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

I am troubled today, because my eldest daughter (age 11) lost a friend.

Friday night is "Home Meeting" night, and my children have enjoyed going because there are many other children there. I have not chosen to attend in some time, but my wife has still gone some lately. Tonight my daughter found out they were no longer invited. Tonight she discovered that her friends aren't allowed to associate with her anymore because we no longer meet with the LSM church. Her friends were told we go to a "Catholic church in Three Hills now", which we do not (not that it matters, really). My daughter told her friend that we don't, and "what does it matter where we go? We're Christians, what does it matter if we don't want Witness Lee as our divine deputy - we can still be friends!" Her friend (also age 11) agreed, but her parents don't feel the same way.

It sure is a shame to see our fellow Christians become so blind and superstitious that their affiliation and relationship to a ministry alone decides who is "true and faithful." Even more heart-wrenching is to see children suffer because their parents desire only to be followers of the Lamb.

Right now I am reading Myer's short booklet --

http://www.grandviewchristianassembl...s%20_book_.pdf

It's actually quite encouraging, which I need a double portion of. He only makes a passing reference to his time in the LC's on pp 23-24.

Quote:

My wife and I were with a difficult and often odd gathering of Christians for decades. From the beginning we felt that the group looked reasonably like the New Testament church in terms of core beliefs and devotional practices. We decided to stick around and make it work, learning the lessons of how to love and how to forgive. We learned to overlook group eccentricities and deal with problem people, serving together with them and following Jesus.

And, of course, they had to tolerate our faults. Whether or not the group was the perfect fit for us was immaterial. We learned things at another level of the Christian life. Eventually we did leave, but not over personal hostilities. When the group started to display cult-like attitudes and definite signs of a disturbing sectarian trend, we separated from it. But for so very long, we made a home in the middle of these quirky folks with an attitude that we were in it for the long haul. And we were. I’d like to challenge all the rest of you to do the same thing.

NeitherFirstnorLast · 04-13-2011, 02:37 PM

Thank you for sharing that Ohio, I haven't finished reading it yet - but it's very enjoyable and perceptive. I also enjoyed this passage:

"If Jesus really wants the church to work as a setting
where people grow, then it seems logical that He would
make sure it is perfect. Otherwise, new impressionable
believers will grow up warped by flawed mentors and
companions. A lot of Christians actually harbor this
thought. They are on a constant quest for the perfect
church, but they may as well be searching for the lost
continent of Atlantis. On this earth, a church has never
existed that is the perfect blend of love, inner life, activity,
social awareness, belief, consistent Christian living, and
everything else that makes for a really impressive resume.
It was not found even among the churches recorded in the
New Testament. Every time we read an epistle or the
record in Acts, we get glimpses of the ideal church and then
just as quickly they go away, eclipsed by various problems.
If we are all assembling as disciples, learners, then by
definition it means we’re a group of people who haven’t got
it all figured out. Even the Apostle Paul said, “Not that I
have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I
press on to make it my own” (Phil. 3:12). He had the solid,
sound foundation of the faith and a great deal of maturity
upon it, but never left the definition of a learner.
So, put a bunch of self-confessed learners together and
you are virtually guaranteed to have an imperfect church.
Beware of the illusion of an ideal, know-it-all church. Such
groups are typically on their best behavior in order to gain
potential members. Later, the other side of the story
becomes apparent in a sick church culture that could
contain elements like hyper-legalism or heresy. By then, it
is often emotionally difficult for a new member to

withdraw."
- John Myer, The Momentum of Togetherness.

aron · 04-13-2011, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Beware of the illusion of an ideal, know-it-all church. Such
groups are typically on their best behavior in order to gain
potential members. Later, the other side of the story
becomes apparent in a sick church culture that could
contain elements like hyper-legalism or heresy. By then, it
is often emotionally difficult for a new member to
withdraw."
- John Myer, The Momentum of Togetherness.

I related to the notion of making an emotional commitment to an idealization. Then, when reality begins to intrude, the emotionally vested person "explains away", downplays, or ignores all the red flags. The intellect has become clouded, and perception dulled, because the heart over-rode common sense, and the actualities experience in this imperfect world.

The only ideal is Jesus Christ.

Yes, I know; Christ is the head of the church. And yes, Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her. Yes, the church is His body. Yes, Christ is building the Church. Yes, the church is the Bride, Christ the bridegroom.

But notice in all those statements it is Christ who is tending affairs, not us. We are to love Him, try to respect(love) our neighbor, and follow and obey the Spirit which comes in His name.

If we try to take on "the church", we really are overstepping our allotted portion; this is my current impression. Our allotted portion is rather to tend to our knitting, and try to be pleasant to the person next to us, and let Christ build His church. Much beyond that, and I suspect Babylon comes rather hard and fast.

Ohio · 04-14-2011, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Thank you for sharing that Ohio, I haven't finished reading it yet - but it's very enjoyable and perceptive. I also enjoyed this passage:

Hey NFNL,

I'm not sure if you have seen Myer's other online book ....

http://www.assemblylife.com/

which was quite helpful to many of us in the GLA departing from LSM. Check out the picture on the cover! For a while he was writing a chapter a month, and it was posted on the websites.

Myer served full-time in the GLA since the mid-80's until he became too "radical" for even TC. Those two parted ways last year. Unfortunately, the church leadership in Columbus sided with TC and thus ... we have another LC splinter group.

I thought it was quite hypocritical that TC and company were crying tolerance and a "return" to the Bible in their struggle with the BB's, and then forgot all that when dealing with Myer.

03-19-2011, 08:28 PM	#1
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,828	Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond... NeitherFirstnorLast, Unfortunately for me, I can relate to your situation. Sometimes it can feel like you are in between a rock and a hard place. I think you can be assured, eventually, that it was God that put you in this place. Doesn't seem so pleasant right now, but time has a tendency to clarify things. In the mean time there is some frustration and some hurting to go through. My suggestion would be to turn to the Psalms. King David had enemies - some from without (the nations) and some from within (his own family). Some of the opposition and troubles came from the devil, some of the troubles came of his own doing. So many of the Psalms express both sides of the coin, so to speak. I am NOT saying that what is happening with you fits so neat and tidy into a form, or that what is written their in the Palms is the cure-all to your situation, only that they may give you some needed perspective or insight. Back a number of years ago, as I was looking back at some similar things the Lord was putting me through, I wrote the following. I really wrote it to myself more than to anyone else, or any group of people. Please don’t rush right through this, there’s something to this story, in the end you may find that it’s God Who gets the glory. The theme of this is not so new, in fact it’s rather old, you may have heard it once before; all that glitters is not gold. You need not wonder much for whom this is intended, for the answer will depend upon who is the most offended. So you’ll know just who you are if indeed you fit the mold, of one who has not yet seen; all that glitters is not gold. Once upon a time our God revealed Himself right to you, it seemed He cast away your sin and then made all things new. Praise Him! For this really did take place just as it’s told, but while we’re still on this earth; all that glitters is not gold. So the promises of God are unshakable as earth, but the promises of man, just take them for what their worth. The words of man are just words, even spoken loud and bold; Volume only counts with God; all that glitters is not gold. Oh never be mistaken not all things are from above, so be wise as a serpent not just harmless as a dove. Oh dear saints take careful stock, for the wood and hey you’re sold will not make it through the fire; all that glitters is not gold Prophets rise and prophets fall of this we can be sure, but only time can tell us if their prophecies endure. Some will build their own kingdom and then leave you in the cold, take it from someone who knows; all that glitters is not gold. As prideful as we people are no one thinks they’ve been deceived, yet His Word says test the spirits, not just any to receive. A wolf in sheep’s clothing may have brought you to his fold, better find out late then never; all that glitters is not gold. So don’t be surprised to learn that you’re under such a spell, and come to find “the gospel truth” is really just The Gospel! Now you cannot say to me you’ve never once been told, the plain and simple truth is; all that glitters is not gold. __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

03-20-2011, 08:45 AM	#2
NeitherFirstnorLast Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 348	Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond... Amen sister, I got up this morning to prepare breakfast for everyone. One of our dear friends, an older sister from our old locality, was staying with us this weekend... This morning, I opened up to her. I always thought of her as one I could count on to receive... you see, our old locality was different from many in America. Our old locality (Winnipeg) started after the turmoil in the late 80's, I believe.... I don't know, there isn't a lot of history sharing there... Regardless, the saints who meet in Winnipeg all came in to the locality about the same time, from the same place, from the same families... They were former Mennonites from Belize; very large families, lots of kids... I don't know which turmoil it was that tore the church in Winnipeg apart, but because the church in Winnipeg was composed of one very large extended family with lots of intermarriages, the separation that occured (I think 2/3rds left, 1/3rd stayed) was incomplete. No divorces came out of that separation, praise the Lord - fathers and mothers who stayed to meet with the local church counselled their daughters to follow their husbands, even if their husbands chose to leave. While the church was broken, the families largely remained intact... but it seemed that what was born out of this was a conspiracy of silence, in order to maintain the truce (that's my sense of it anyway, since no one on either side ever wished to talk)... and we met with both at large family gatherings, as we were welcomed in as family by those who met in the lc. Oh Lord, in any case, I did open up today. The reason I opened up is, due to finances and also to fellowship, we need to consider a move - again - and this time to a place where no local church is... to meet with the Christians who we've been fellowshipping with in Three Hills. I'm struggling to choose the right and proper path for my family - seeking the Lord's leading... I was surprised by this sister, because as I said, I thought she would be open to hear from me due to her own experiences with family who have left... but I was wrong. Very wrong. She told me she "doesn't want to receive this from me", that she sees Christ in me, but she doesn't want anything else. I talked to her about Anaheim, about the speaking about the light going out all across the midwest, about the liberal use of the word 'opposers', about the Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, about John Ingalls, about Bill Mallon, about John So... about genuine saints who love the Lord... about Watchman Nee's true vision of a local church vs what is practiced today, about deputy authority, about building walls, about rejecting members of the Body... actually, in review I said a lot more than I thought I did... Her take was that I wouldn't be rejected so long as I was open to receive. Receive what? Receive what elders would say. Could we go into the history of the local church? Why would we go there, the Lord moved on and so should we. Because the belief within the local church is that Lee's word on the matter is right, that his footnotes are all right, that he is above being questioned, that he is infallible, but he was sinful man. No one said he was infallible, but what he wrote was divinely inspired. Paul was just a man who wrote letters to the churches, Paul had been a sinful man, but we receive Pau'ls word as the Word of God. But Paul's word is inspired - God Himself placed it in the Bible. The canon of Scripture is finished. Have you read "The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion?" I might have. I think I have. Who was accused of rebelling? Who are we calling opposers? What is it we are saying these people oppose? Christ. They oppose Christ. No, they do not, they were not opposed to Christ or the Church, they were opposed to usurped authority. If you talk to those people on-line they will poison you, that poison will get into you. No, I didn't see these things after I spoke with them, I saw them before... I finally went on line because I needed to know if it was just me who saw these things.. but it wasn't! I could have written "the Truth in Love", it was exactly my experience. I can't share that, because the only thing we are allowed to share is the ministry word. I had a closer walk with the Lord before I came to the local church than now, when I submit to the authority of others over my own inner speaking. I choose to receive Lee's word as the Word of God. But that is my issue - this is what we do and Nee warned us very specifically against this kind of thinking - we're taught that Nee and Lee were one, but they most definitely are not. What do you mean, give me an example? Ok.... ...and I did, I proceeded to outline the very things I've outlined here, from the Orthodoxy of the Church, from the Normal Christian Church Life... I am afraid for you. Very afraid. I don't want to receive this, sorry. I will receive Christ in you, but I don't want to receive this. All I know is I came out of division, and I'm not going back in. I'm afraid you're going back in. But how do we differ from a divisive denomination? We are a division. How many times have we divided in the turmoils? We've built high walls, and don't let others in. We don't have walls, other Christian are welcome to come worship with us. But they would say the same thing to you. This is not the vision. We have divided on the basis of locality, travelling long distances to meet with those who speak the same thing - that's a division. That is a sect. Have you read the Normal Christian Church Life? Have you seen what it says about what it's supposed to be like... There isn't supposed to be a meeting of saints who speak the same thing. There isn't supposed to be an organized structure or a training center or... There's not supposed to be a training center? I won't receive that. ...and she left the room. Even a sister I dearly love, and she closed the matter. Again, like the others to whom I've opened up, she had no scripture to back her way of thinking, her only answer was to receive what the elders would say and reject everything else absolutely (boiling it down, anyway). Don't dig into the past, accept Lee's word as The Word, and move on for the Lord. Eat and enjoy; that's it that's all. I guess I am too dangerous to talk to. I am infected with a preoccupation for the truth. I always thought the truth would set you free. It's as you say, sister: All that glitters is not Gold. Lord, build up Your Church. Lord, we all need You. Preserve us all. Amen

03-21-2011, 05:23 AM	#5
Hope Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Durham, North Carolina Posts: 313	Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond... Dear Neitherfirstnorlast, Qoute: "Regardless, the saints who meet in Winnipeg all came in to the locality about the same time, from the same place, from the same families... They were former Mennonites from Belize; very large families, lots of kids..." I have been reading your post for a while. I went to Belize along with John So in the early-mid 80s. Have we ever met? I chose Hope for my forum name. There is great hope and a bright future for us in the Lord. May the Lord lead you as you seek Him. A brother in Christ Jesus Hope, dfr

03-21-2011, 08:20 AM	#6
NeitherFirstnorLast Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 348	Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond... I can honestly say, Hope, that I wish we had met - but I don't think so. I only was introduced to LSM in 2008, and I've never been to Belize. My family was the only fruit brought into that locality in many many years - the remainder there was either born into the LSM church or had come into it decades before... and a few migrated from other places, or married in from other localities.... ...Many "accused" me of being ex-Mennonite though, or same as, 'cause of my German heritage - but nope - no blood relation (other than by His blood) to any of those others in Winnipeg! Ray

04-08-2011, 07:55 PM	#8
NeitherFirstnorLast Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 348	Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond... I am troubled today, because my eldest daughter (age 11) lost a friend. Friday night is "Home Meeting" night, and my children have enjoyed going because there are many other children there. I have not chosen to attend in some time, but my wife has still gone some lately. Tonight my daughter found out they were no longer invited. Tonight she discovered that her friends aren't allowed to associate with her anymore because we no longer meet with the LSM church. Her friends were told we go to a "Catholic church in Three Hills now", which we do not (not that it matters, really). My daughter told her friend that we don't, and "what does it matter where we go? We're Christians, what does it matter if we don't want Witness Lee as our divine deputy - we can still be friends!" Her friend (also age 11) agreed, but her parents don't feel the same way. Praise the Lord, it is completely over at last. We are delivered whole from a religious system that lost its way if ever it had found it. How sad though, that children would be cast aside and friendships destroyed over such things as this. Matthew 18:5-6 "And whoso shall receive one such little child in My name receiveth Me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in Me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. " Lord, have mercy on them. Open their eyes to the full knowledge of the truth. Lord, forgive them - for they know not what they do. In Christ, NeitherFirstnorLast

04-08-2011, 09:17 PM	#9
Unregistered Guest Posts: n/a	Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond... Your experience grieves my spirit. I'm not much different from you. Not having met with the local church since last September, but still participating with Friday night home meetings. I've not been received in such a narrow manner your family has been received. Your experience I denote as sectarianism. Receiving which is far narrower that God's receiving of us. Lord, open their eyes!

04-13-2011, 02:37 PM	#12
NeitherFirstnorLast Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 348	Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond... Thank you for sharing that Ohio, I haven't finished reading it yet - but it's very enjoyable and perceptive. I also enjoyed this passage: "If Jesus really wants the church to work as a setting where people grow, then it seems logical that He would make sure it is perfect. Otherwise, new impressionable believers will grow up warped by flawed mentors and companions. A lot of Christians actually harbor this thought. They are on a constant quest for the perfect church, but they may as well be searching for the lost continent of Atlantis. On this earth, a church has never existed that is the perfect blend of love, inner life, activity, social awareness, belief, consistent Christian living, and everything else that makes for a really impressive resume. It was not found even among the churches recorded in the New Testament. Every time we read an epistle or the record in Acts, we get glimpses of the ideal church and then just as quickly they go away, eclipsed by various problems. If we are all assembling as disciples, learners, then by definition it means we’re a group of people who haven’t got it all figured out. Even the Apostle Paul said, “Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own” (Phil. 3:12). He had the solid, sound foundation of the faith and a great deal of maturity upon it, but never left the definition of a learner. So, put a bunch of self-confessed learners together and you are virtually guaranteed to have an imperfect church. Beware of the illusion of an ideal, know-it-all church. Such groups are typically on their best behavior in order to gain potential members. Later, the other side of the story becomes apparent in a sick church culture that could contain elements like hyper-legalism or heresy. By then, it is often emotionally difficult for a new member to withdraw." - John Myer, The Momentum of Togetherness.