The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, Johnson & VanVonderen

[TLFisher]

The Sherman I knew, the was no in-between. Sherman was an absolute brother. He never doubted "the brothers" nor Witness Lee.

"Brother Lee was never wrong about anything that happened regarding the rebellion with John I. in the late 1980's. Brother Lee is a different person than Philip Lee. Brother Lee would never do things that others would do."

Brother Lee would never do things that others would do? No one should be placed on a pedestal.

Not just entire localities, but in elders too I believe bought into half-truths and accepted as being complete. Just look at Acts 5 as an analogy.

Acts 5:1-2
But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and kept back some of the proceeds for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet.

Living Stream Ministry has continued to perpetrate a lie as pass it as factual.
Elders buy into the lie without considering "the rest of the story". Elders never consider they would be lied to by the co-workers or by the late Witness Lee. As a result they could fall into the category of "flying monkees" or "enablers". Elders need to do due diligence on their part. Mortal men are not above reproach. Instead they enable bad behavior and function as "flying monkees" in doing their part trying to silence the truth tellers.

There is some truth to what Sherman said, "Repentance is a mercy that is granted to us only by the Lord. But repentance only comes when one realizes that he is altogether WRONG." That would explain why there has never been a corporate repentance.

Originally Posted by TLFisher

The Sherman I knew, the was no in-between. Sherman was an absolute brother. He never doubted "the brothers" nor Witness Lee. There is some truth to what Sherman said, "Repentance is a mercy that is granted to us only by the Lord. But repentance only comes when one realizes that he is altogether WRONG." That would explain why there has never been a corporate repentance.

At this point it’s difficult for me to believe that these men are honest, with themselves and others. I was in the dark for a long time because I was literally in the dark regarding the truth not having heard it because the leaders lied for Lee to “cover him.” And it did take me a few attempts to fully accept the truth for what it is, and that we’ve all been massively lied to. I gotta give them credit for being so good at keeping us all believing in “the wizard”

However once you have the truth laid out before you then it’s on you, the burden of coming to reality is on you at that point. I can understand some level of trepidation for ones who committed decades of their lives, but at some point you have to say that they’re either in a kind of denial or they’re ok with the lie because they don’t want to leave the bubble they’re in. Possibly there’s a great amount of peer pressure- like “how dare you question this thing we’ve all been in.” I suppose that’s cult programming for you. You’re so used to the bubble you’re in, so used to the imaginary chains that you begin to love them and you’ll even attack others who try to free you

Reminds me of this movie called Pappilon with Steve McQueen and Dustin Hoffman. At the end of the film Steve McQueen’s character has been trying to break free of prison the entire time and finally finds a way out, but Dustin Hoffman’s character decides to stay because 1. He’s too afraid and 2. He has grown comfortable in captivity. At that point their captivity wasn’t horrible, it was just away from real life. He just didn’t want to go through the trouble of getting to the other side and wanted to keep the comfort of his not-so-bad captivity. They enjoy the comfort of the bubble but they aren’t actually free

I believe Steve’s books were meant to do just that- burst the bubble and release the mental hold Lee had over so many members. So after you read them if you’re still supporting the system to the point Sherman did then I feel it’s just dishonesty at that point. Like someone who just has invested so much in a lie they can’t come to grips with having been lied to. Or they just like their positions and they like the phoney honor they get. They like the lie better than the truth. They’re comfortable in their bubble. I believe many members are like this. They’ve become accustomed to their imaginary chains

I suppose at that point it’s a matter of character. In a sense I suppose it takes a bold person to break free from mental programming. But also we have to consider that this a system of abuse. A kind of Stockholm syndrome effect that is actually harming people and in worst cases fostering crimes and hiding the perpetrators

I guess ultimately I can excuse the member’s in this sense more than the leaders. Because the leaders have most of the responsibility. And the leaders are the ones who know what is actually going on whereas I believe the ill things that happen mostly do not reach the ears of the nominal members, because it’s how the local churches operate. They hide and bury the bad things that happen. But that puts more blame on the leaders. As a leader you have a responsibility to look out for the best interest of those you care for. And bottom line to excuse and cover the egregious things that happened is just so wrong. Which I view covering and lying for these things as bottom line dishonest, and at worst it’s a kind of aiding and abetting

I suppose at a certain point possibly they lost their sense of right and wrong. Which could be possible with enough brainwashing idk. Certainly Ingalls, and Myer, and other leaders saw the truth and saw what was the right thing to do and they did it. How many now are still living dishonestly? How many leaders are in the dark versus how many are just kind of dishonest? Or maybe afraid to let go of the thing they’ve been desperately clutching for so long. How many care more about their positions than the truth? You have to wonder did they even consider that covering certain things is unrighteous and doing so could hurt other members

Common sense would tell you that if “whistleblowers” are saying crimes and wrong things are happening you should look into it. But are they kept in the mental prison because of the fear of losing their reward? Idk but it’s all very messed up. They’re in a kind of prison and are being kept there with either fear or self denial because they don’t want their bubble burst, don’t want to lose their position, or they’re just too comfortable

Idk but I think they’re gonna have to give an account either way to God for allowing certain things to happen. Some more than others I’m sure

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I suppose at a certain point possibly they lost their sense of right and wrong. Which could be possible with enough brainwashing idk.

You DO realize that in order to become a trusted leader in the LC, any sense of right and wrong must be destroyed? Listen here to Ron Kangas reminding leaders of that requirement for LC eldership.

Since that is the case - and "The Ministry" is filled through & through with calls to exterminate any thoughts of judging according to right or wrong - why would we expect LC leaders to care about people? They did not lose their sense of right and wrong, they were told to destroy it - By both Nee and Lee...

P.S.

[countmeworthy]

WOW P.S.!!
Back in the day, early 70s, the mantra was “it’s not about right or wrong. It’s about LIFE”. Shame on the LC leadership!!!
-

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

You DO realize that in order to become a trusted leader in the LC, any sense of right and wrong must be destroyed? Listen here to Ron Kangas reminding leaders of that requirement for LC eldership.

Since that is the case - and "The Ministry" is filled through & through with calls to exterminate any thoughts of judging according to right or wrong - why would we expect LC leaders to care about people? They did not lose their sense of right and wrong, they were told to destroy it - By both Nee and Lee...

P.S.

I have not heard this yet I guess. Pretty insane

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

You DO realize that in order to become a trusted leader in the LC, any sense of right and wrong must be destroyed? Listen here to Ron Kangas reminding leaders of that requirement for LC eldership.

Since that is the case - and "The Ministry" is filled through & through with calls to exterminate any thoughts of judging according to right or wrong - why would we expect LC leaders to care about people? They did not lose their sense of right and wrong, they were told to destroy it - By both Nee and Lee...

P.S.

I'm sure most elders are fathers to their sons and daughters?
I'm sure these LC elders were not so irresponsible as fathers they did not lose sense of right and wrong in teaching their own children?
It's just in regard to Lee's ministry, we're not going to make an issue of matters, things, or persons. Essentially looking the other way in regard to right and wrong.

1 Timothy 3:1-5
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer1 must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

However once you have the truth laid out before you then it’s on you, the burden of coming to reality is on you at that point. I can understand some level of trepidation for ones who committed decades of their lives, but at some point you have to say that they’re either in a kind of denial or they’re ok with the lie because they don’t want to leave the bubble they’re in. Possibly there’s a great amount of peer pressure- like “how dare you question this thing we’ve all been in.” I suppose that’s cult programming for you. You’re so used to the bubble you’re in, so used to the imaginary chains that you begin to love them and you’ll even attack others who try to free you

Reminds me of this movie called Pappilon with Steve McQueen and Dustin Hoffman. At the end of the film Steve McQueen’s character has been trying to break free of prison the entire time and finally finds a way out, but Dustin Hoffman’s character decides to stay because 1. He’s too afraid and 2. He has grown comfortable in captivity. At that point their captivity wasn’t horrible, it was just away from real life. He just didn’t want to go through the trouble of getting to the other side and wanted to keep the comfort of his not-so-bad captivity. They enjoy the comfort of the bubble but they aren’t actually free

You mentioned Papillion. Never saw the movie. Your description of Dustin Hoffman's character, I have known more than just a few like this. I think in part they fully took in the ground of locality teaching. Well, it's not any different from the exclusive brethren.
It is sad to know of all the abuse and willingly stay there. I was one of the those at one time.