Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned

Raptor · 03-18-2024, 10:49 PM

The pattern in both the Old and New Testaments clearly describes that salvation is a gift by grace through faith, yet ruling and reigining with Christ in the Millenial Kingdom will be a reward earned by works.

For example, to be an elder or deacon in 1 Timothy 3, there are a series of qualififications. If there are requirements other than being a believer to be a leader in a church, which is temporary and very localized, surely there are requirements to be a co-king with Christ in the Millenial Kingdom.

TheStarswillFall · 03-19-2024, 11:16 AM

What do you do with Gal 3:1-6 ?

Paul says that the believer should CONTINUE his course in the same principle he BEGAN his course - by RECEIVING the Spirit through the hearing of FAITH (just like Abraham).

Approved WORKS are an issue of genuine faith, just like justification, forgiveness, regeneration, sanctification etc. Please note that the work is actually God's work.

1 Cor 3:10-15 also states that believers BUILD upon the FOUNDATION which is Christ. What are the available materials? Gold, silver and precious stones (God's work) .... wood, grass and stubble (man's work)

No man can EARN anything before God. God will always point you to His Christ!

Lay hold of Christ and His work, and God will richly reward you with His kingdom - Gal 6:16-23.
The kingdom of God is the full development of the kingdom seed within man (Mark 4:26-29).
You don't EARN the kingdom, you RECEIVE it by FAITHin Christ Jesus through God's GRACE- in the very SAME PRINCIPLE you received the kingdom seed to begin with!

What did Jesus say? "Apart from Me YOU CAN DO (earn) NOTHING"

Eternal Salvation is free (yet Christ paid the highest price for us to receive salvation)
Reigning with Christ is free (yet Christ overcame and sat with His Father on His throne for us to reign with Him)

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before whose eyes Christ was openly portrayed crucified? Only one thing I wish to learn from you, did you RECEIVE THE SPIRIT...
After BEGINNING by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to FINISH by means of the flesh (earning it by your own effort)??????

Ohio · 03-19-2024, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

What do you do with Gal 3:1-6 ?

Paul says that the believer should CONTINUE his course in the same principle he BEGAN his course - by receiving the Spirit through the hearing of faith (just like Abraham).

The (approved) WORKS are an issue of genuine faith, just like justification, forgiveness and regeneration, sanctification etc.

1 Cor 3:10-15 also states that believers BUILD upon the FOUNDATION which is Christ. What are the available materials? Gold, silver and precious stones (God's work in man) .... wood, grass and stubble (man's work for God)

No man can EARN anything before God. God will always point you to His Christ!

Lay hold of Christ and His work, and God will richly reward you with His kingdom - Gal 6:16 - 23. The kingdom of God is the full development of the kingdom seed within man (Mark 4:26-29) You don't EARN the kingdom, you receive it by faith in Christ Jesus through God's grace - in the very same way you received the kingdom seed to begin with!

What did Jesus say? "Apart from Me YOU CAN DO (earn) NOTHING"

Eternal Salvation is free (Yet Christ paid the ultimate price for this)
Reigning with Christ is free (Yet Christ overcame and sat with His Father on His throne for this)

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before whose eyes Christ was openly portrayed crucified?....

This post is full of half truths.

The new covenant, with forgiveness of sins and eternal life, are free to all who believe in the Son and are born of God. In this regard, any works we do to pay our sin debts to the law of God are merely dead works.

But judgment begins in the house of God, and we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ. Not to pay the debt for our sins, but whether our walk with God was worthy or worthless. Were we vessels unto honor or vessels of shame? Were we obedient to the will of God, or walking disorderly? Were we faithful to the Lord, or was our faith shipwrecked? Did we gain profit for the Lord, or did we bury what God had given us? Were we full-grown sons or life-long infants?

We all must consider questions like these, and more, from scripture.

Sons to Glory! · 03-19-2024, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

The pattern in both the Old and New Testaments clearly describes that salvation is a gift by grace through faith, yet ruling and reigning with Christ in the Millennial Kingdom will be a reward earned by works.

For example, to be an elder or deacon in 1 Timothy 3, there are a series of qualifications. If there are requirements other than being a believer to be a leader in a church, which is temporary and very localized, surely there are requirements to be a co-king with Christ in the Millennial Kingdom.

This is very succinctly put and easy to grasp! So much so that I think I will post this idea in another forum I'm on - thanks!

aron · 03-19-2024, 05:35 PM

My formative views were affected by being in the LC.. my initial (LC) view was that all were saved, came thru the water & cloud & fire but many (most) perished in the wilderness. (cf 1 Cor 10; Heb 3) They were saved (grace) from Egypt but not saved (faithful in good works) into the Good Land. That's the LC view that I remember. Kinda-sorta saved. Redeemed but not overcoming, not reigning in life.

But then I looked at Moses. Fell in the Wilderness, yet with Christ on the Mountain in Transfiguration. I guess dying outside the Good Land was not so bad if you were on Mount Pisgah (I guess). So over time, after leaving the LC, it evolved. Today, depending on what day it is, or what hour of the day, you will get my thoughts at the moment.

Here's my recent ruminations. In anything, in our Christian universe, as delineated by Scripture text, the reality is in Christ Jesus in his relations with the Father. This is our faith, not in ourselves but in him. So I look at Scripture: I come to do Thy will, O God... Christ is 'doing' but not 'doing', really, because God is doing through Christ. That was Jesus' interpretation of Scripture, as seen in the Gospels. When Christ speaks, it is not Christ but the Father speaking thru Christ.

My point is that to Christ speaking in the Gospel accounts, it is not Christ but the Father. To Christ, there is no "I" to do any work. Christ says, "You (Father) have done this". Christ is merely the obedient vessel of the Father's work.

In some sense, his consciousness has sunk into God, where he can see nothing speak nothing do nothing but the Father's will. Now, we as believers also (by faith) see Christ in the Father. We see the eternal will of God carried out through Jesus Christ. Our will, and our consciousness, begin (fitfully and slowly, I know) to merge with his.

When Christ died, his last gurgled words were "It is finished". If you look at the end of Psalm 22, it says, He [the Father] has done it. The Father's will be done on Earth as in Heaven. There is nothing else, there is no other work. Jesus went around "doing good works" according to his companion Peter (see the gospel message in Acts 10, esp v 38), but all those good works were the Father working out through Jesus. "When you see me, you see the Father". There is only one work, that of the Father, through Jesus Christ.

bearbear · 03-22-2024, 08:46 PM

Protestants generally agree that Salvation is by faith alone but Christians disagree over what constitutes faith which is important because that is the means by which we are saved.

One view is that the Greek word translated to faith (pistis) has a wide variety of meaning in the NT and is sometimes translated as "faithfulness" depending on the context. Matthew Bates in "Salvation by Allegiance" alone contends that "pistis" should be understood as "allegiance" which encompasses mental agreement, fidelity, loyalty, etc. He cites as an example, a Jewish rebel who wrote a letter urging people to "repent and believe [pistis] in him" as means to join his cause, using the same language as the New Testament Greek during the same time period. [https://thelogosofagape.wordpress.co...ek-word-study/]

Another view is that faith is both mental agreement and trust and that obedience is a fruit of faith. This view is held by theologians like Wayne Grudem (see [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujtk2ZGzHkw]). Notice in John 3:36 that obedience and belief are almost used interchangeably perhaps because they are so closely interconnected.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Another view closer to LCs is that faith is just mental agreement alone. I agree mental agreement to the correct divine facts is important. For example if I mentally agree that Jesus was a created being, the archangel Michael and that he was a spirit being who never died but only ascended to heaven, that kind of Jesus will not save me.

Two examples in the OT provide an interesting case study: David and Balaam. Both mentally agreed that Yahweh was God but only David directed his allegiance/love/obedience towards God whereas Balaam was really loyal to himself and money. David murdered, stole, lied and committed adultery yet he was ultimately saved. Balaam may have not committed such sins and was even used by God to prophesy and speak truth but he was disobedient in his heart and he was ultimately damned according to 2 Peter 2.

I think there is some wisdom to focusing on faith even if it is just to increase one's level of mental agreement. I found the more I research about the veracity and trustworthiness of the bible which helps me to be fully convinced of the gospel, the more I am able to become obedient with little effort. I find that the more I believe, the more God puts desires in my heart to do his will and to love the things he loves and hate the things he hates. In the past I focused on good works or overcoming addiction by my own effort without focusing on developing faith and it often failed. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is able to work through us according to the measure of our faith.

1 John 5:4 ESV
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

bearbear · 03-23-2024, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

What do you do with Gal 3:1-6 ?
You don't EARN the kingdom, you RECEIVE it by FAITHin Christ Jesus through God's GRACE- in the very SAME PRINCIPLE you received the kingdom seed to begin with!

I like the analogy of the kingdom seed and believe Jesus gave us the parable of the sower to demonstrate the relationship of his free gift of grace and what is required on our behalf for salvation.

God's seed is freely distributed by the sower and not merited. The sower does not intervene to change the condition of the soil but simply lets the seeds fall where they may. I believe the soil points to our heart or free will and we are responsible for making it the good earth by removing the thorns (the idols of our heart) and making it soft (through humbling ourselves). This is accomplished when one lets go of their life and gives it to Jesus (see Matthew 16:25). Once the seed lands, God causes the growth and all the glory, credit and praise for the work goes to him. I believe salvation is a free gift but we are responsible for allowing the Holy Spirit to make our hearts ready to receive it.

Christians disagree on which of the soils are saved. I lean towards only the fourth soil, the good earth being saved using scripture to interpret scripture and will make a case for it.

Regarding whether the thorny soil with the plant that produced no fruit is saved, Jesus appears to zoom in on a case study of this in John 15 where he compares the branch which produced fruit against the branch which did not and says the branch that did not bear fruit is cast into the fire and burned (John 15:6). Note here that the branch is the one being burned and not the fruit (works) and Jesus says we are the branches in John 15:5.

This theme is repeated again in the parable of the talents where the servant who hid his one talent in the ground is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:31). The question here is outer darkness hell or heaven's suburb? Using scripture to interpret scripture again the answer appears to be hell according to Matt 13:42 where the seed of Satan developing into the tares which are clearly the unsaved, are thrown "into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Note Matthew's usage of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in both cases.

Outside the parables, we see this theme in James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." If we are saved by faith alone (Eph 2:8-9) then the absence of faith implies that salvation was not reached.

Verses like Galatians 5:24 also suggest that dying to our old man to produce the good earth is not optional: "And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." Paul repeats this in Romans 8:13 "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." This is not works salvation because works are what our heart produces. Dying to self is something we do in our heart and not outside of it.

Galatians 2:20 sums up the above quite well:
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

The second rocky soil resulted in a plant that had no root and withered away. This one is easier to deal with since there are many verses in scripture that explain the fate of one who walks away from Christ:

1 Cor 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Hebrews 3:14
For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Matthew 10:33
but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Phil 3:11-12
and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

1 Cor 9:27
I treat my body hard and make it my slave so that I myself will not be disqualified after I have preached to others.

If you were to believe that all these warnings are temporary in nature and not eternal, it would make much of Paul's ministry seem non-sensical since he wouldn't have to have toiled so hard to make sure that believers were maintaining their faith correctly. If the 2nd, 3rd and 4th soil were saved, and the goal is to save as many souls for eternity as possible, Paul should have changed his strategy to go on a world tour to get everyone to say the sinner's prayer once in their life instead of re-visiting churches and making sure they were all on the narrow path that leads to life and worrying himself to death.

Galatians 5:7
"You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?"

Galatians 4:11
"I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain."

Raptor · 04-01-2024, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

I like the analogy of the kingdom seed and believe Jesus gave us the parable of the sower to demonstrate the relationship of his free gift of grace and what is required on our behalf for salvation.

There are two kinds of people in the world and history: believers and unbelievers. This distinction is judged at the Great White Throne. Unbelievers will be lost forever, but believers are saved and can never lose their salvation. Yet believers live in all kinds of conditions: these conditions will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ. Most of the contents of the Bible is written to believers, not unbelievers: it mostly addresses the conditions of believers, admonishing them to be faithful and become ready to pass the JSoC, and it also speaks to unbelievers to be saved.

The parable of the sower displays this dyanmic of unbelievers and then the believers with their different conditions. The key to understand is: life. The seed beside the way never germinates, there is no life, they are not saved, e.g. Pontius Pilate. All the other three cases do germinate: they are saved, they have life. "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 Jn. 5.12. But those last three cases address different conditions of believers: 1.) some believers eventually leave the faith, e.g. Demas (still saved, though). 2.) some believers are hindered by all kinds of possible things, they are not healthy, e.g. Ananias and Zaphira, the young widows that turned after Satan. 3.) some believers are healthy and grow and bear much fruit in their life, e.g. Paul.

At the JSoC, the Lord will render to each believer according to their works done after being saved. E.g., those believers that commit fornication or habitually get drunk, or do not forgive others, etc. and never confess and repent of their sins will render an account at the JSoC. Many will be disqualified from ruling and reigning with Christ in the Kingdom: they will be disciplined to learn the lessons they did not learn during their life. Death will not solve their problems.

bearbear · 04-01-2024, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Many will be disqualified from ruling and reigning with Christ in the Kingdom: they will be disciplined to learn the lessons they did not learn during their life. Death will not solve their problems.

The revelation of the millennial kingdom is not found anywhere until the Book of Revelation which is commonly dated to 95AD. When the "kingdom of God" is referenced in the New Testament, the writers outside of John likely had no concept of the millennial reign of Christ and often refer to the kingdom of God in an eternal context which Jesus describes as "nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst." (Luke 17:21)

People who hold this view that anyone who professes belief is saved yet needs to work to earn the millennial kingdom or face dispensational “weeping and gnashing of teeth”, also liken the millennial reign as some holy grail that is the ultimate goal of every Christian yet it seems that the millennial kingdom is a type or shadow of the new heavens and new earth. During the millennial kingdom, people still die (Isaiah 65:20) so there's likely some amount of sin though limited, and there's even a great rebellion at the end (Rev 20:7-8). It is also temporal, so if you just view reigning in the millennial kingdom as a reward, while it's likely very nice to have, is not even eternal. The millennial kingdom will eventually pass away along with the old heavens and earth, 1 John 2:17 even says "And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever." Also think about what happens to those who does not do the will of God, it seems like they will not abide forever.

Contrast this to how Peter describes the kingdom in 2 Peter 1:10-11: "Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Notice Peter does not refer to it as a "millennial kingdom" but the eternal kingdom of God. If all it took was the sinner's prayer to enter the eternal kingdom of our Lord, why would Peter say we still had to "make every effort to confirm your calling and election"? Such a command would seem non-sensical. So Paul is likely referring to the same eternal kingdom in warnings like Galatians 5:19-21: "Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Also how would the parables of the tares and wheat make any sense? In that parable the tares are clearly unsaved since they are the seed of Satan yet Jesus implies that sometimes it's so hard to tell them apart that it's better to let God sort it out (Matthew 13:24–30 ). If anyone that says the sinners prayer is a wheat, then who are the tares? A view that supports the idea that there are true and false Christians and its sometimes hard to tell them apart would be more consistent with this parable.

Jesus also says broad is the way that leads to destruction and narrow is the way that leads to life and few find it. If professing belief in Jesus at one time in life is all it took, then the road would seem broad. Theoretically you could have someone make a profession of faith once in their life and become a Satan worshipper and go on a murderous rampage and that person would still be saved, yet your friendly neighborhood atheist who has never committed any serious crimes except for spending all his waking hours playing fortnite would suffer a far worse fate for eternity.

Jesus also told the thief on the cross who turned from his sin and towards Jesus in faith at the last hour "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise". If the thief still had the chance to go through a 1,000 year dispensational "weeping and gnashing of teeth" wouldn't that make Jesus' promise of assurance sound sick and twisted? Also how does it speak to the character of God if he uses this kind of punishment akin to locking kids up in a dark bathroom for 1000 years to train his followers. Wouldn't it be more likely to cause trauma and bitterness rather than the fruits of the Holy Spirit such as love, joy and peace?

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus calls those who call him "Lord, Lord" to depart from him saying "I never knew you". It sounds like a complete disowning like he didn't even want to be associated with them, calling them "workers of lawlessness". It sounds pretty final and this is confirmed by Jesus when he said "eternal life is knowing God and Christ Jesus" (John 17:3). So, if Jesus says "I never knew you", it doesn't seem like one has attained eternal life nor does it seem like the person was ever born again. This theme is also repeated elsewhere in the NT in verses like:

1 John 3:6
"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

So someone who said the sinners prayer but continues in willful sin (lawlessness) cannot be saved and may not ever have been born again. And one of the greatest sins is violating the first and second commandment to "have no other gods before me" and not to worship idols. Yet a common reason people leave Christianity after making a profession of faith is to worship idols of money or lust which are sins. This is confirmed when John implies that someone who loves the world is likely not born again in 1 John 2:15 and when James says friendship with the world is enmity with God (James 4:4).

If this view was correct, entire portions of the NT would seem non-sensical such as the warning passages here https://www.verserain.com/html/warning_verses.html and it would be very difficult to read the bible and take it literally without commentary.

None of the church fathers like Iraenaus, Polycarp or Justin Martyr have written about a view similar to this one and neither is it found in the Didache, an apostolic instruction manual of the early church which some date to 50 AD. This view along with the other esoteric teachings in Nee and Lee's ministry is relatively new in church history and so it should be regarded with suspicion per 2 Timothy 3:4

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

So what do I think is the more biblical view on salvation? Salvation from the penalty of our sin, including any idea of dispensational punishment is by grace through faith alone (Eph 2:8-9). All that is needed is to "repent and believe" (Mark 1:15). Repent means to turn one's heart away from sin and towards faith in Christ just like the thief on the cross. When the heart is turned to the Lord the veil is taken away (2 Cor 3:16). "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." (Psalms 51:17). In this process, when we humble ourselves and make our heart "broken and contrite", it becomes the good earth and we make room for the Holy Spirit to live in us with strong roots and we become truly born again. From here this promise can be fulfilled:

"for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith." (1 John 5:4)

ThankfulForever777 · 04-02-2024, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

If this view was correct, entire portions of the NT would seem non-sensical such as the warning passages here https://www.verserain.com/html/warning_verses.html and it would be very difficult to read the bible and take it literally without commentary.

After leaving the LC, and delving into the Bible, I have come to notice a significant number of warnings issued by Jesus and the apostles aimed at believers. At this juncture, I no longer subscribe to the doctrine of eternal security of salvation, commonly known as "once saved, always saved."
Upon reading the Parable of the Sower, I observed that individuals represented by the rocky soil initially receive the seed with joy, signifying faith, yet their faith quickly withers under the weight of persecution and tribulation, ultimately leading to a loss of their salvation. Similarly, those depicted by the thorny soil show initial growth of word but are ultimately suffocated by worldly worries and the deceitfulness of wealth, resulting in a forfeiture of salvation.
There exists no hint in this parable that receiving initially the word of God guarantees eternal security of salvation. Instead, Jesus cautions us to possess hearts that not only receive his word but also understands and bear fruit.
Moreover, this parable illustrates that our salvation requires ongoing, lifelong faith, emphasizing that initial faith alone is insufficient.

Matthew 13:3-9 and 18-23 (NIV):
3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: 'A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

18 Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.

Ohio · 04-02-2024, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

After leaving the LC, and delving into the Bible, I have come to notice a significant number of warnings issued by Jesus and the apostles aimed at believers. At this juncture, I no longer adhere to the doctrine of eternal security of salvation, commonly known as "once saved, always saved."

The Bible differentiates between "being saved" and "perishing." Perishing in the context of John 3.16 refers to the eternal lake of fire.

Being saved, however, can have many contexts. Most of which do not refer to the lake of fire. And just because we may pass thru fire, does not mean we are judged in the final lake of fire. One verse which mentions both is I Cor 3.15, "... he shall suffer loss, but he shall be saved, yet thru fire." To suffer loss occurs at the judgment seat of Christ (2 Cor 5.10) but we are still saved. Suffering loss here will be the Lord's discipline, and loss of rewards and blessings.

bearbear · 04-02-2024, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

After leaving the LC, and delving into the Bible, I have come to notice a significant number of warnings issued by Jesus and the apostles aimed at believers. At this juncture, I no longer subscribe to the doctrine of eternal security of salvation, commonly known as "once saved, always saved."

Thanks for sharing ThankfulForever777. I'm actually not sure where I stand with respect to OSAS yet. This one verse I shared earlier seems to suggest someone who is truly born again will overcome:

1 John 5:4
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

I also lean towards the view that only the fourth soil is truly saved and shared similar reasons to you in an earlier post. Did you know the Greek word Jesus used in John 3:3 γεννηθῇ refers to the natural birth through the canal and does not refer to the moment of conception? A still born or miscarried fetus would not experience γεννηθῇ and life, hence the 2nd and 3rd soils experienced conception, but did not develop into a full term baby which experiences birth through the canal, so they never completed the process of being born again.

This could mean that being born again is not necessarily a short one time event. Sanctification and regeneration could be tied together for some period of time in this view. Perhaps there is a point where you give yourself over to Jesus so much that there's no going back and that's precisely the moment when heaven rejoices (Luke 15:7). Yet the thief on the cross was saved so maybe his "birth" was on an accelerated time through his suffering on the cross and seeing Jesus face to face. In some sense the thief handed over his life to Jesus (fulfilling Luke 9:24) when he said "Remember me when I come into your kingdom". He humbled himself and acknowledged that he was a sinner and worthy of death and that Jesus was his only hope.

And because only God knows our hearts, there is some mystery behind being born again as Jesus alluded to in John 3:8

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”"

Nevertheless I respect your view because there are so many verses that seem to go against OSAS as well. This verse from Paul seems to be a strong one:

Phil 3:11-12
"and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me."

Paul didn't consider to have attained the "resurrection from the dead" while he was yet alive which is our hope for salvation. Focusing on the millennial kingdom reward may be putting the cart before the horse.

Ohio · 04-02-2024, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

I also lean towards the view that only the fourth soil is truly saved and shared similar reasons to you in an earlier post. Did you know the Greek word Jesus used in John 3:3 γεννηθῇ refers to the natural birth through the canal and does not refer to the moment of conception? A still born or miscarried fetus would not experience γεννηθῇ and life, hence the 2nd and 3rd soils experienced conception, but did not develop into a full term baby which experiences birth through the canal, so they never completed the process of being born again.

bearbear in the parable of the sower, the 2nd soil "hears the word and receives it with joy, but is short lived without root" yet did sprout forth in "birth." The 3rd soil "hears the word, sprouts and grows, yet is choked, becoming unfruitful." (Matt 13.20-22)

Sorry, but I've never heard this theory about "stillborn" not being spiritually "born."

To me, the 4th soil is both born again and rewarded, growing unto maturity, bearing much fruit, multiplying his talents.

To embrace your views here, we must write off all those warned and disciplined in scripture as unbelievers, perishing in the lake of fire. Those of the "nations" (always considered to be unbelievers in the NT) in Matt 25.31-46 who only treat the Lord's real children well during the Great Tribulation receive a far better reward!

But note, that only those who already have eternal life, washed in the blood of Jesus, though falling short in the faith as the 2nd and 3rd soils, will be disciplined at the Bema seat of Christ. These Matt 25 "sheep," however, though they "enter into the kingdom," never receive eternal life, rather enter into eternal life. They are not sons of God, with all its blessings, rather only the "nations" outside the city, healed by the leaves. (Rev 21)

bearbear · 04-02-2024, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

bearbear
Sorry, but I've never heard this theory about "stillborn" not being spiritually "born."

In the parable, the second soil results in a plant that dies. I believe death is a metaphor for spiritual death leading to the lake of fire which is the "second death".

Revelation 21:8
"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Notice how similar this verse describing the damned is to Paul's warning in Galatians 5:19-21 "The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

I want this millennial exclusion view to be true but there are so many verses that you'd have to work very hard to explain away.

For example, how would you reconcile this view with this verse Galatians 5:24:
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

There are many people who profess the faith yet have not died to their flesh, hence they would not belong to Christ according to this verse. How can you not belong to Christ and still be saved?

Or these other ones related to life and death:

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

If these warnings are temporary in nature, why is Paul afraid of laboring in vain? If people who profess faith at one point in their life are eventually going to be saved, wouldn't Paul have souls saved for eternity? and hence his labor would not be in vain.

Philippians 2:16
holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Galatians 4:11
I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

Jesus warned that few would be saved and that narrow is the way to life and few find it but in comparison many would say to him "Lord, Lord" but he would disown them in Matthew 7:21-23.

Ohio · 04-02-2024, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

In the parable, the second soil results in a plant that dies. I believe death is a metaphor for spiritual death leading to the lake of fire which is the "second death".

"The mind set on the flesh is death." (Rom 8.6) Since all of our minds have at one time been set on the flesh, we have all died. We're all going to hell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Revelation 21:8
"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

I have never met a person who has not lied, including you. And me. Therefore both you and I and all mankind will burn forever in the fire and brimstone. There is no hope for any of us. In fact, all the apostles are prolly guilty too. Saul/Paul we know is a murderer, so he goes to hell first.

It seems you and I are foolish to ever have believed we could be saved.

bearbear · 04-02-2024, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

"The mind set on the flesh is death." (Rom 8.6) Since all of our minds have at one time been set on the flesh, we have all died. We're all going to hell.

I have never met a person who has not lied, including you. And me. Therefore both you and I and all mankind will burn forever in the fire and brimstone. There is no hope for any of us. In fact, all the apostles are prolly guilty too. Saul/Paul we know is a murderer, so he goes to hell first.

It seems you and I are foolish to ever have believed we could be saved.

Before we were saved we were slaves to sin. But after we were saved and born again through the Holy Spirit, we are no longer slaves to sin but righteousness. Paul addresses this in Romans 6:

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin."

Of course no one is saying we can do this perfectly. God sees our heart that we are making a best effort to walk this out and offers us grace when we repent and confess our sins (1 John 1:8-10). The difference is between using grace as a license to practice sin and get deeper into it versus using God's grace to pick ourselves back up as we turn away from sin and addiction and we walk the narrow path that leads to life. Only God would know someone's heart and the subtle difference between the two dispositions.

1 John 3:8
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

This just goes back to my point.. to take on the millennial exclusion view you basically have to turn your mind off when reading passages like Romans 6.

bearbear · 04-02-2024, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

After leaving the LC, and delving into the Bible, I have come to notice a significant number of warnings issued by Jesus and the apostles aimed at believers. At this juncture, I no longer subscribe to the doctrine of eternal security of salvation, commonly known as "once saved, always saved."

Hi ThankForever777, I'm also curious about your journey of transitioning from an LC based view of salvation to your current one. Was it a combination of scripture reading or did you meet Christians at your new church who were good examples of Christians walking in love and faith?

It was a struggle for me to transition from my LC salvation theology but it was made easier when I met a few godly men and women who really did seem full of love and faith at a level I've never encountered before. They were also transparent about their struggles about embarrassing sins such as porn usage and how they overcame it which made me realize it was possible to overcome addiction whereas I simply thought it was impossible before.

bearbear · 04-02-2024, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

bearbear
To embrace your views here, we must write off all those warned and disciplined in scripture as unbelievers, perishing in the lake of fire.

Jesus actually talks about false believers in Matthew 24:51 when referring to the disobedient servant: "He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The same language "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is used in the parable of the wheat and tares to refer to seed of Satan who becomes the tares in Matthew 13:41-42 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"

Someone who professes to be a believer but practices sin like an unbeliever is a false Christian. Paul also talks about this in verses like Titus 1:15-16 "To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good." Here Paul says someone who "claims to know God" is actually "unbelieving" if they "deny him by their actions".

Paul is just echoing Jesus when he said "you will know them by their fruit" (Matt 7:15-20)

bearbear · 04-02-2024, 09:10 PM

Romans 6:21-22 also juxtaposes death and eternal life directly:
"But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

If "death" is the opposite of "eternal life", is it too far of a stretch to link this to the "death" or "second death" in Revelation 20:14:

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

John 8:24
"I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”"

bearbear · 04-03-2024, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

bearbear
Sorry, but I've never heard this theory about "stillborn" not being spiritually "born."

I just came across this verse today and the match is pretty astonishing:

Galatians 4:19-20
"My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!"

If Christ was fully formed in the Galatians believers via "childbirth" perhaps they would have not gone astray with the circumcision party who Paul called "false brethren" (Gal 2:4-5). Read in context of the epistle, Paul was indeed worried that he had labored in the vain after the Galatians were running so well-- implying that they had held onto the true gospel at some point but their corruption of the gospel with circumcision would imply a "miscarriage".

Galatians 5:7
"You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?"

Galatians 4:11
"I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain."

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Here is a real life example: There is a family in my parent's old small group that became Jehovah Witnesses. If my parent's millennial exclusion theology is correct, that family is saved in the end so there's nothing to worry about. However, from my perspective, I think their fate could be far worse. JW's version of Jesus as the created archangel Michael who did not resurrect but was re-created as a spirit is a Jesus that cannot save anyone. This really worries me.

Raptor · 04-04-2024, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Jesus actually talks about false believers in Matthew 24:51 when referring to the disobedient servant: "He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Weeping and gnashing of teeth is NOT a place, not a location. It is an emotional condition. Peter wept bitterly after denying the Lord, ...so did he go to hell? NO. A teenager takes dad´s car without permission and crashes. He´s grounded and can´t go to prom; spends the weekend weeping and gnashing. Did he go to hell? NO. W&GoT is a phrase that describes deep sorrow and regret; it can happen in many different situations and contexts.

The disobedient servant was still a servant, he is a believer, but disobedient. There are millions of genuine believers, born again christians that are disobedient: hyporcrites, or live in fornication, or addicted to porn, or divorced their wives without Scriptural ground, or smoke pot and booze, or are homosexuals. They will be judged at the Judgemnt Seat of Christ: many will not inherit the Kingdom.

bearbear · 04-04-2024, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Weeping and gnashing of teeth is NOT a place, not a location.

Hi Raptor, thanks for sharing. I love that you are bringing Matthew 24:51 into closer focus.

Matthew 24:51
"and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

First notice that the master "cuts" the servants into pieces. It doesn't sound like something a father would do to discipline their child. This sounds more like the wrath described in John 3:36. Notice we both agree that the servant is "disobedient" and in the verse below, it says someone who does not obey will not see life.

John 3:36 (ESV)
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

(You may also be wondering why belief and obedience are used interchangeably, it's because obedience is a fruit of saving faith. Also see this Greek word study on faith: https://thelogosofagape.wordpress.co...ek-word-study/)

Next let's drill down on the location in this verse. The servant ends up in the same location as the hypocrites. A hypocrite in Jesus' day is someone with an outward appearance of being religiously good but is inwardly defiled, just like the Pharisees. The Pharisees rejected Jesus and were not saved because Jesus called their father the Devil (John 8:44) so they are in hell. John also writes about hypocrites in verses like this one:

1 John 4:20
"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen."

The disobedient servant was not loving towards his brother and sister because he beat his fellow servants (Matthew 24:49). John says that a person who claims to know God but hates his brother is a liar so that's not a great start since liars go to the lake of fire according to Rev 21:8, but let's ignore that for now.

In context, John is implying someone who hates his brother is not born again because earlier in 1 John 4 he says:
"7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love."

So the sign of a true born again believer is that he/she follows Jesus' first two commandments: love God and love neighbor. John juxtaposes this against a person who does not love and says this type does not know God. Since eternal life is knowing God (John 17:3), a person who does not love, does not know God and hence does not have eternal life and is not born again.

Jesus said in John 3:3 that unless a person is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. It doesn't matter how many meetings or conferences a person attends or how many prayers or hymns they sing, if they're not born again they are not saved.

Quote:

The disobedient servant was still a servant, he is a believer, but disobedient. There are millions of genuine believers, born again christians that are disobedient: hyporcrites, or live in fornication, or addicted to porn, or divorced their wives without Scriptural ground, or smoke pot and booze, or are homosexuals. They will be judged at the Judgemnt Seat of Christ: many will not inherit the Kingdom.

If you read your bible on your own it's doubtful that you would reach this conclusion by yourself. You have to get this from commentary or church tradition. When Paul wrote his letters to the churches, his audience did not have the revelation of the millennial reign of Christ which came later in the book of Revelation around 95AD. By that time many of Paul's original audience may have even passed away.

When Paul gives warnings such as:

Galatians 5:19-21
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

His audience would have associated it with the eternal kingdom of God, not just the millennial reign. Don't you think that if Paul meant the millennial kingdom, he would have made it clear because that is a HUGE difference.

Peter also uses the term "eternal" kingdom of God in his warning and encouragement

2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Both authors are talking about the same kingdom of God. God's kingdom is not limited to a 1000 year period it is ETERNAL.

The millennial kingdom is imperfect and a shadow of the new heavens and new earth because people still sin and die (see Isaiah 65:20), and there's even a huge rebellion at the end of it.

Also this teaching didn't arrive into church history until the Brethren arrived on the scene in the 1800s. If you're right, then believers throughout 90% of church history including the church fathers incorrectly interpreted the Apostles warnings about not inheriting the kingdom of God. The early Christians who were eaten by lions and wild animals believed that if they recanted their faith they would not make it into heaven for eternity and many were offered that temptation to do so. If this doctrine was present in the early church it's possible many of them would have been tempted into apostasy to save their own life.

Matthew 10:33
but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

https://www.verserain.com/html/warning_verses.html

bearbear · 04-05-2024, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

"The mind set on the flesh is death." (Rom 8.6) Since all of our minds have at one time been set on the flesh, we have all died. We're all going to hell.

There is a story of an early Christian, a Roman noblewoman by the name of Perpetua who wrote an auto biography of her martyrdom. In it she recounts her persecution by the Romans who believed that Christians were to blame for natural disasters by refusing to worship the Roman pantheon which angered their gods.

Her father was not a believer yet he was beaten severely since she would not recant her faith and sacrifice to the Roman gods. Her heart was broken because of the beating but she likely held this verse close to her heart "Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:37-39). Her father begged her to give up her faith and pleaded in tears but she refused.

The Romans decided to end her life in the Colosseum where she joined three others including her friend Felicity in jail who was pregnant with a baby. Felicity eventually gave birth to the baby and nursed her inside the jail. Felicity loved the baby like no other and it saddened her to give her up to adoption. This entire time she could have recanted her faith in order to live and raise her baby but the early Christians took Jesus at his word when he said "but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven." (Matt 10:33).

Before their martyrdom, Perpetua had a dream where there was a ladder reaching to heaven and it was filled with obstacles and spikes with a serpent nearby. She realized there was only one way to heaven and if she fell off the ladder she wouldn't make it there. In the dream, she overcame the serpent and was able to reach the top of the ladder.

Perpetua and her friends were obedient to the command not to set "their mind on the flesh" -- even if it was their baby, father, family or comfortable life in nobility. Instead they let their mind be governed by the Spirit of God who gave them joy and peace into their martyrdom. Along with her fellow Christians, Perpetua was brutalized by wild animals and eventually put to death by the sword. God tested their faith and it was indeed real (James 1:2-3). Perpetua and her friends were saved by their faith in Jesus.

Video of Perpetua's biography: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMNhNOZIxJw

The early Christians actually looked forward to martyrdom because they viewed it as a ticket to heaven perhaps because staying on earth meant that there was a risk of temptation and falling away from the faith.

1 John 2:15-17
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Raptor · 04-09-2024, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

The revelation of the millennial kingdom is not found anywhere until the Book of Revelation which is commonly dated to 95AD.

Oh...so then it must not be that important or relevant, or true? So neither the revelation of the New Jerusalem, nor the revelation of the Son of Man walking among the lampstands, nor the great whore, Babylon the Great. Actually, the whole book of Revelation.

The teaching about entering or missing the Kingdom in the coming age is taught everywhere in both Old and New Testaments.

bearbear · 04-10-2024, 06:30 AM

Hi Raptor,

Sorry if I came on strong in my last message. The Lord Jesus loves you very much because you are his special creation and you come from his being via the breath he gave to Adam. I also used to believe like you did and the cognitive dissonance was real but I finally had to bow down to the authority of God's word. I believe as David loved Absalom, so does God loves his enemies including the false believers who end up perishing for eternity, but he can't override their free will to reject him from their heart (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 23:37). My intent is to help others and themselves get their family and friends to take their walk with the Lord seriously because we only have one chance to repent while we are alive (Hebrews 9:27).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Oh...so then it must not be that important or relevant, or true? So neither the revelation of the New Jerusalem, nor the revelation of the Son of Man walking among the lampstands, nor the great whore, Babylon the Great. Actually, the whole book of Revelation.

When John wrote the book of Revelation he was reporting a vision that he saw with his own eyes. His audience would have also made the connection between a lot of what he wrote and what the OT prophets described such as the destruction of Babylon (which was never destroyed but replaced by the Medo-Persian empire, so the prophets were talking about another Babylon).

Paul on the other hand could only write about what he knew to be true and there is no indication that he or the other apostles knew about the millennial reign of Christ at the time of their writings.

If you are right then the worries that Paul expressed in his letters about laboring in vain were unnecessary since the souls he labored over would only miss out on the millennial kingdom.

Galatians 5:7
"You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?"

Galatians 4:11
"I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain."

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

1 Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Philippians 2:16
holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

Here is a video which goes into more detail on the warning passages:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFQZZuJgMGs

Note that I actually lean towards "once saved always saved" in a way that the Apostle John taught it and not the way it's described in many churches today and can explain to you my current view on salvation in another thread but it's good to research different perspectives and compare them to scripture.

I also agree in a literal millennial kingdom and in rewards related to it, but I think it's just a subset and a shadow pointing to the new heavens and new earth which is encompassed by God's eternal kingdom .

If you'd like to message me one on one to ask questions that are better done in private, I will DM you my email.

Ohio · 04-10-2024, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Oh...so then it must not be that important or relevant, or true? So neither the revelation of the New Jerusalem, nor the revelation of the Son of Man walking among the lampstands, nor the great whore, Babylon the Great. Actually, the whole book of Revelation.

The teaching about entering or missing the Kingdom in the coming age is taught everywhere in both Old and New Testaments.

I thought the Book of Ezekiel was filled with Millennial prophecies along with all those concerning the restored Davidic rule of the Christ.

Recently while chatting with a Christian who avoided the “confusing” book of Revelation, I commented, “the time is coming, and perhaps soon, when all of us will have wished we had spent more time in this book.”

bearbear · 04-10-2024, 09:34 AM

We both agree there will be a millennial reign of Christ and rewards related to it. We just disagree on whether the warnings concerning missing out on the "kingdom" in the New Testament are related to a finite 1000 year reign or the eternal kingdom of God.

In the same way that the seventh day Sabbath is a shadow of our true rest in Christ that is never-ending (Hebrews 4), so is the millennial reign of Christ, a shadow of the upcoming new heavens and new earth which is eternal.

Daniel prophesied that the Messiah's kingdom would be everlasting:

Daniel 7:27
"And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’"

So Paul and Apostles would have the same understanding that the Messiah's kingdom would be eternal.

So when Paul warns in passages such as:

Ephesians 5:5
"For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God."

Paul and the other apostles are likely referring to the everlasting kingdom of the Messiah that Daniel wrote about. Someone who focuses on the millennial kingdom aspect of the "Kingdom of Christ and God" while ignoring the eternal aspect, is like a Seventh Day Adventist who focuses on physical seventh day of the week and not our true Sabbath rest in Christ which is eternal. The focus should be on the eternal reality and now the finite shadow.

So Peter along the same line writes about the "eternal kingdom of God" in his warning and encouragement:

2 Peter 1:10-11
"Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

And another example is we both agree that Jesus is talking about the eternal kingdom of God in John 3:3, so what hermenetic are we adopting to limit Paul's reference to the kingdom of God to a finite 1000 year kingdom but interpret it to be eternal elsewhere?

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Matthew 4:17 (NLT)
From then on Jesus began to preach, “Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.”

Ohio · 04-10-2024, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

When John wrote the book of Revelation he was reporting a vision that he saw with his own eyes. His audience would have also made the connection between a lot of what he wrote and what the OT prophets described such as the destruction of Babylon (which was never destroyed but replaced by the Medo-Persian empire, so the prophets were talking about another Babylon).

Paul on the other hand could only write about what he knew to be true and there is no indication that he or the other apostles knew about the millennial reign of Christ at the time of their writings.

John wrote, not to the Jews as say the book of Hebrews, but to the nations, the Gentiles. Early church history (e.g. Schaff) actually speaks of Rome being Babylon and the return (resurrection?) of the dreaded Nero as common knowledge among the disciples.

Paul in I Cor 15 speaks of the coming Kingdom. In 2 Cor Paul mentions his visits to Paradise in Hades and the Throne of God. (Which I believed happened when he was stoned to death in Lystra.) Many things Paul saw and heard, he was forbidden to repeat.

bearbear · 04-10-2024, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul in I Cor 15 speaks of the coming Kingdom. In 2 Cor Paul mentions his visits to Paradise in Hades and the Throne of God. (Which I believed happened when he was stoned to death in Lystra.) Many things Paul saw and heard, he was forbidden to repeat.

I agree Paul likely had an near death experience and I think he saw false believers in hell like so many others who had NDEs so that's why he himself was so afraid of being "disqualified" and wanted to make every effort to confirm his calling and election.

1 Cor 9:27
"But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. "

Notice he didn't say he was afraid of coming in second or third place which would be the case if it was related to loss of rewards, but he says "disqualified", kicked out of the race.

Paul also expresses similar fear elsewhere:

Phil 3:11-12
that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

The resurrection of the dead is our living hope for salvation according to 1 Peter 1:3-9, yet Paul says that he did not assume that he already obtained it but wanted to keep pressing on to confirm his calling and election.

ThankfulForever777 · 04-10-2024, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Here is a video which goes into more detail on the warning passages:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFQZZuJgMGs

Thank you for sharing this link. After watching it, I believe it offers valuable insights that challenge many preconceptions I have acquired from WL teachings.

bearbear · 04-10-2024, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

Thank you for sharing this link. After watching it, I believe it offers valuable insights that challenge many preconceptions I have acquired from WL teachings.

Glad you enjoyed it ThankfulForever777, here's another interesting video from Sam Shamoun who the famous apologist David Wood calls the "Assyrian Encyclopedia" and arguably the best Christian debater of our lifetime:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYaTEv5DZVE ("Sam Shamoun On "FAITH ALONE" & What Jesus Taught About Justification")

I often refer to this blog post for a Greek word study on "faith" actually meaning "trust within a vow to a faithful relationship": https://thelogosofagape.wordpress.co...ek-word-study/

And Sam in the video actually proves this definition using scripture.

Paul quotes Habbukuk 2:4 three times in the NT: "The righteous shall live by faith" in Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11 and Hebrews 10:38 (assuming he is the author of Hebrews which he may not be).

If you do a Hebrew word study on Habbukuk 2:4, the Hebrew word for faith "emunah" used in the verse actually means much more than "faith" in English according to Strong's:
https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/...brew/0530.html
"firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness"

So the verse Paul is quoting should be translated as "The righteous shall live by trusting faithfulness"

So faith is more like "trusting faithfulness" or "allegiance". Abraham "believed" in God but he demonstrated his faith by obeying God when he wanted him to sacrifice Isaac. Balaam had the correct "mental agreement" concerning God and was used by God to prophesy and speak truth, however his faith & obedience was directed at himself and money so he ended up in hell according to 2 Peter 2:1-15.

Matthew Bates also writes about this in his book "Salvation by Allegiance Alone": https://www.amazon.com/Salvation-All.../dp/0801097975

Mental agreement is not enough for salvation. Obedience is required. Also obedience comes from the heart and many Christians have confused obedience with works. God desires "obedience" (trusting faithfulness) and not sacrifice (works) (1 Samuel 15:22, Hosea 6:6, Micah 6:6–8). Ananias and Sapphira "sacrificed" but they were not obedient.

John 3:36 (ESV)
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Romans 1:5 (ESV)
through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,

Acts 5:32 (ESV)
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

bearbear · 04-11-2024, 12:52 PM

I also just watched this documentary on the early church by David Bercot who also spoke in the previous video on "Once Saved Always Saved":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzqDV91AFPo

He shows that the early church's practice and beliefs on salvation were different from most of the mainstream denominations today including Evangelical, Catholic and Orthodox. His conclusion is that the early Christians believed that they were saved by a loving-faith relationship with Jesus (and not a mechanical one which is practiced by many Catholics) and that believers had to maintain this relationship born out of love until death in order to be saved.

Raptor · 04-15-2024, 05:37 AM

"....Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."
Matthew 6:10

What kingdom is the Lord praying for and teaching believers to pray it would come? Didn´t God already have His Kingdom, doesn´t the Kingdom of God already exist? Of course it does. The Lord is praying for the Kingdom to be manifested, to come to the earth with it´s fullest expession: the Millenial Kingdom in the coming age, where Christ will rule as King on the earth with all His faithful and victorious believers.

bearbear · 04-15-2024, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

[B]The Lord is praying for the Kingdom to be manifested, to come to the earth with it´s fullest expession: the Millenial Kingdom in the coming age, where Christ will rule as King on the earth with all His faithful and victorious believers.

We both agree there will be a millennial kingdom where Christ will come to reign. This argument doesn't build any evidence for why the warnings about not inheriting the kingdom given by Paul are limited to the 1000 year kingdom and not the eternal kingdom.

Also your assertion that the millennial kingdom is the fullest expression doesn't seem to be biblical. During this period people still sin and die:

Isaiah 65:20
... the young man shall die a hundred years old,
and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.

There is a huge rebellion at the end where Satan tempts a sea of people to fight against Jesus and the saints.

Revelation 20:7-9
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them

The millennial kingdom is finite, takes place during the "old creation" where sin and death are still present and falls short of the glory of the new heavens and new earth so it is a shadow of the eternal kingdom of Christ where God's will is done perfectly as described in the hope of the Lord's prayer.

Revelation 21:1-2
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

bearbear · 04-16-2024, 01:13 PM

These are basically the same warnings:

1 John 3:8
"Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."

Galatians 5:19-21
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Raptor · 04-16-2024, 11:19 PM

"If we died with Him, we will also live with Him; if we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will also deny us;" 2 Tim. 2:11-12

1: If we died with Him, we will also live with Him. This refers to having believed in the Lord. It is in past tense; we have died with Christ, not literally, but when we believed, we died in Him. To live with Him refers to the resurrection. All believers will be resurrected, it is part of the gift of eternal salvation.

2. if we endure, we will also reign with Him; This refers to living a faithful life all the way to the end. It is in the future; it is conditional, IF you endure you will reign. The opposite is true: if you DO NOT endure, you will NOT REIGN.

3: if we deny Him, He will also deny us This refers to the worst condition when a believer denies the Lord. The Lord will deny that believer, not for loss of eternal salvation, but for discipline during the Kingdom age.

bearbear · 04-17-2024, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

"If we died with Him, we will also live with Him; if we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will also deny us;" 2 Tim. 2:11-12

Hi Raptor, I appreciate the sincerity in making a case for millennial exclusion. It does seem like a challenge because unlike doctrines such as Calvinism, Arminianism or even Open Theism which have their proof texts, millennial exclusion appears to have none at all and seems to be based on speculation. Your explanatory style seems to be similar to Witness Lee where he takes verses and then reads his own meaning to it instead of trying to extract meaning and let the verses speak for themselves (see exegesis).

The verse you quoted does not make any case for why the warning passages for professed believers are temporary in nature and not eternal.

If Christ's kingdom is eternal and not just 1000 years, then we we will reign in eternity and not just 1000 years. In the same way that a dog's shadow tells us that a dog is coming, a shadow is something that tells us the reality behind it is coming. Christ's 1000 year kingdom is a shadow that tells us the reality of the eternal kingdom is coming via the new heavens and new earth.

Daniel 7:27
"... His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him."

Revelation 1:5-6
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen."

Titus 1:16 says that self professed believers can also deny God by their actions: "They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work."

The disobedient servant in Luke 12:45-46 denied God by his actions hence he was not a real believer so God put in his portion with the "unbelievers" (Greek: Apiston). Unbelievers go to the lake of fire just like false believers who are the tares and the seed of Satan masquerading as Christians.

Luke 12:45-46
But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

bearbear · 04-17-2024, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

1: If we died with Him, we will also live with Him. This refers to having believed in the Lord. It is in past tense; we have died with Christ, not literally, but when we believed, we died in Him. To live with Him refers to the resurrection. All believers will be resurrected, it is part of the gift of eternal salvation.

I agree with your interpretation here but likely differ on your definition of believer. I think this promise only applies to "true" believers and not "false" believers.

A true believer will have participated with Christ's death on the cross by dying to their flesh. I am just going to share scripture on this and let it speak for itself:

Galatians 5:24
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Romans 6:5-11
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him... So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Dying to self is not an option because it is part of the process of being born again. As a servant cannot serve two masters so too can a man not live two lives but one must die to the old life to exchange it for a new one. This is what the sacrament of baptism represents.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.

The Old Testament shadow of this is circumcision on the eighth day after birth. There were seven days of the old creation so the eight day represents the first day of the new creation. The real circumcision is of the heart when we die to our flesh to make room for the Holy Spirit to live in us and we become a new creation in Christ. A true Jew is someone who is circumcised inwardly.

Romans 2:28-29
For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Someone who is truly born again will not be a slave to sin, including the sin of apostasy which is denying Christ.

1 John 3:9
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

https://www.gotquestions.org/dying-to-self.html

Raptor · 04-17-2024, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

millennial exclusion appears to have none at all and seems to be based on speculation...

There are many verses that clearly express exclusion, without adding meaning to the verses. "Not everyone saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father in the heavens. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’" Matthew 7:21-23.

This is a judgement of works, not if one believed in the Lord or not. These are believers being judged for their works, like in 1 Cor. 3:12. "on that day"...What day is that? This is the Judgement Seat of Christ, these believers are being judged for their works of wood, hay and stubble. Their works were of the flesh, they were never approved of by the Lord. These fleshly workers "will not enter into the kingdom of the heavens."

bearbear · 04-17-2024, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

There are many verses that clearly express exclusion, without adding meaning to the verses. "Not everyone saying to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father in the heavens. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’" Matthew 7:21-23.

We both agree that this verse is talking about exclusion from a kingdom. But we disagree on the length of the kingdom in these warnings. The kingdom of heaven is eternal and there is no indication in scripture that the kingdom of heaven is limited to 1000 years. Jesus also tells these fake believers "I never knew you; depart from Me" It seems like Jesus wants nothing to do with them and there is no indication that Jesus will give them a second chance to return after 1000 years. Also, if Jesus never knew them, it means they were never born again.

Quote:

This is a judgement of works, not if one believed in the Lord or not. These are believers being judged for their works, like in 1 Cor. 3:12. "on that day"...What day is that? This is the Judgement Seat of Christ, these believers are being judged for their works of wood, hay and stubble. Their works were of the flesh, they were never approved of by the Lord. These fleshly workers "will not enter into the kingdom of the heavens."

During the Bema Seat judgment, we will only be rewarded for works done out of selfless love. Other works done out of other intentions such as the fear of hell which are the wood, hay and stubble will be burned away. There will be saints who enter heaven for eternity as the least of saints without any rewards, perhaps like the thief on the cross who circumcised his heart, repented of his sins and turned to God in the last hour.

Galatians 5:6
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love."

bearbear · 04-20-2024, 05:55 AM

Revelation 22 gives us a picture of kingdom exclusion-- an exclusion of the unclean from the eternal kingdom of God in the new heavens and new earth and not the millennial kingdom which passed away along with the old creation.

Revelation 22:3
No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him

In contrast to the heavenly city, during the millennial kingdom people still sinned and died (Isaiah 65:20) and had the freedom to reject Jesus in their hearts and rebel against him (Revelation 20:7-9). The millennial kingdom is a demonstration that even when Jesus physically reigns on earth, if man does not turn their hearts towards Him, they are not actually in the kingdom, because God wants to reign in our hearts and not outside of it.

Revelations 22:10
And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”

Here we see the righteous being juxtaposed with the unrighteous. Someone who is truly saved will continue do righteousness and the unsaved will continue to do evil (Romans 6). It is not enough to pay lip service and call Jesus Lord but God must reign in our heart (Matt 7:21-23, Isaiah 29:13, Ezekiel 33:31, Matthew 15:7–9).

Revelation 22:15
Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Finally we come to the ultimate kingdom exclusion verse. Outside the heavenly city where God's throne is located are those who do evil. They can't blame God because scriptures warned us many times that those who practice evil will not inherit the kingdom of God regardless if they profess to be Christians or not.

Galatians 6:8
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Now compare Revelation 22:15 with references to the dogs (unclean), sorcerers, sexually immoral, murderer, idolators, and those who practice falsehood with Paul's warnings in the epistles.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:3-5
But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

https://www.verserain.com/html/warning_verses.html

Ohio · 04-21-2024, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

We both agree that this verse is talking about exclusion from a kingdom. But we disagree on the length of the kingdom in these warnings. The kingdom of heaven is eternal and there is no indication in scripture that the kingdom of heaven is limited to 1000 years. Jesus also tells these fake believers "I never knew you; depart from Me" It seems like Jesus wants nothing to do with them and there is no indication that Jesus will give them a second chance to return after 1000 years. Also, if Jesus never knew them, it means they were never born again.

I disagree with this conclusion. Is not Jesus Christ our Creator? If Jesus never knew them, it means they were never even born or conceived in the first place. If Jesus never knew us, then we have never existed.

bearbear · 04-21-2024, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I disagree with this conclusion. Is not Jesus Christ our Creator? If Jesus never knew them, it means they were never even born or conceived in the first place. If Jesus never knew us, then we have never existed.

John 17:3
"And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

The Greek word for "know" in John 17:3 is ginóskó which is "to know, especially through personal experience (first-hand acquaintance)" (https://biblehub.com/greek/1097.htm)

This kind of knowing requires a relationship between two people. If we "ginóskó" Jesus then he would "ginóskó" us.

The same Greek word is used in a different verb form in Matthew 7:21-23.

The Apostle John also confirms this understanding in his epistle and uses the same word "ginóskó":

1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

According to John, someone who "ginóskó"'s Jesus would not practice sin. But the one who practices sin yet claims to be a Christian would be a tare or seed of Satan masquerading as a Christian.

1 John 3:8
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 4:20
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

Ohio · 04-21-2024, 09:38 PM

A multitude of unrelated verses does not define truth. Going back to the earlier comment, when the Lord said “I never knew you,” we must understand this as “I never approved of your word.” Otherwise then we must make that absurd claim that the Lord is not omniscient.

Raptor · 04-21-2024, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Your explanatory style ....takes verses and then reads his own meaning to it instead of trying to extract meaning and let the verses speak for themselves (see exegesis).

One of the worst cases of eisegesis is the erroneous teaching saying there are two different servants in Matthew 24:45-51, and that the first one is a believer and the other is an unbeliever. This is inaccurately adding and imposing words and meanings to the Bible. It´s completely wrong, destroying the meaning of the parable

. There is only ONE servant in those verses, with two possible outcomes depending on what that servant does. Even a third grade level of reading comprehension is sufficient to undestand there is only one servant. "But suppose THAT SERVANT is wicked and says in his heart....",

ONLY ONE SERVANT being judged by his works!

bearbear · 04-22-2024, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

One of the worst cases of eisegesis is the erroneous teaching saying there are two different servants in Matthew 24:45-51, and that the first one is a believer and the other is an unbeliever. This is inaccurately adding and imposing words and meanings to the Bible. It´s completely wrong, destroying the meaning of the parable

. There is only ONE servant in those verses, with two possible outcomes depending on what that servant does. Even a third grade level of reading comprehension is sufficient to undestand there is only one servant. "But suppose THAT SERVANT is wicked and says in his heart....",

ONLY ONE SERVANT being judged by his works!

Yes technically it is one servant with two possible outcomes in Luke 12:42-48. Even then I don't see how the meaning changes. If the servant is disobedient and dies without repenting then it shows that he was never truly saved and born again to begin with. How do you skirt around the clear statement that he was "cut to pieces" (does this sound like discipline from a loving father to you?) and assigned a place with the "apiston", those without faith, the unbelievers:

Luke 12:48 (NIV)
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

I didn't make this interpretation up but I got it from the apostle John:

1 John 3:15
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 3:7-8
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Notice how the Apostle John says "let no one deceive you". Is it possible that we've been deceived by Witness Lee and Watchman Nee and their exclusive Brethren teachers?

Who do you trust more concerning the doctrine of millennial exclusion? The early church fathers like Polycarp (disciple of John) or Clement of Rome (co-worker of Paul mentioned in Phil 4:3) who were able to ask the original apostles questions concerning faith & salvation as well as being fluent in Koine greek or the exclusive Brethren teachers who came on to the scene 1800 years after Christ's birth?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzqDV91AFPo

It brings me no pleasure to defend this position. I wish you were all right so more could be saved, but I just don't see it in scripture. I feel like the weeping prophet Jeremiah. Yet we are all free to believe what we believe.

bearbear · 04-22-2024, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

A multitude of unrelated verses does not define truth. Going back to the earlier comment, when the Lord said “I never knew you,” we must understand this as “I never approved of your word.” Otherwise then we must make that absurd claim that the Lord is not omniscient.

Assuming you are right about the knowing part, we also have to deal with the other words "you workers of lawlessness" in Matthew 7:21-23

The word for lawlessness is anomia in Greek: "lawlessness; the utter disregard for God's law (His written and living Word)." (https://biblehub.com/greek/458.htm)

When Jesus expected Nicodemus to know about the new birth in John 3:10, he was likely referring to Ezekiel 36:26-27 which describes the process of being born again:

"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."

Someone who is truly born again with God's spirit will follow the law of Christ in the New Covenant to love God, love neighbor and practice Jesus' teachings. That Jesus labeled the false disciples as "lawless" shows that they did not participate in this new birth.

I also didn't make this up. I'm just paraphrasing what the Apostle John wrote in his epistle who described "lawlessness" in the same manner. He also flips the direction of "knowing" in Matthew 7:23 from Jesus to us to us to Jesus.

1 John 3:4-8
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

Even the Antichrist is labeled as "the man of lawlessness" (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

bearbear · 04-22-2024, 08:24 AM

According to early church historian David Bercot, here are the advantages that the early church fathers such as Clement of Rome (mentioned by Paul in Phil 4:3) and Polycarp (disciple of the apostle John) had on us:

1. Learned the gospel from the apostles themselves
2. First-hand witnesses of the practices of the early church
3. Greek was their mother tongue
4. They understood the culture, setting and politics
5. What they believed had strong scriptural support

If the millennial exclusion doctrine was true, why was it never mentioned or expounded on by the early church fathers? The millennial kingdom is not mentioned in the New Testament until the book of Revelation written by the Apostle John, yet his disciple Polycarp never wrote about a doctrine like millenial exclusion and neither did Paul, Peter or the other NT writers.

Instead of this doctrine the early church Fathers confirmed scripture by teaching that one had to maintain a loving-faith relationship with Jesus until the end in order to be saved -- (or what the Apostle John would interpret as "evidence" of salvation).

Is there something the exclusive Brethren saw 1800 years later or "recovered" that the Apostles and early church fathers somehow missed? Or could this be a false doctrine among many that Paul warned would show up?

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions

Acts 20:29-30
I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzqDV91AFPo

Ohio · 04-22-2024, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Assuming you are right about the knowing part, we also have to deal with the other words "you workers of lawlessness" in Matthew 7:21-23

The word for lawlessness is anomia in Greek: "lawlessness; the utter disregard for God's law (His written and living Word)." (https://biblehub.com/greek/458.htm)

When Jesus expected Nicodemus to know about the new birth in John 3:10, he was likely referring to Ezekiel 36:26-27 which describes the process of being born again:

"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."

Someone who is truly born again with God's spirit will follow the law of Christ in the New Covenant to love God, love neighbor and practice Jesus' teachings. That Jesus labeled the false disciples as "lawless" shows that they did not participate in this new birth.

I also didn't make this up. I'm just paraphrasing what the Apostle John wrote in his epistle who described "lawlessness" in the same manner. He also flips the direction of "knowing" in Matthew 7:23 from Jesus to us to us to Jesus.

1 John 3:4-8
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

Even the Antichrist is labeled as "the man of lawlessness" (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

Both the histories of Israel and the Church are filled with leaders who were "workers of lawlessness." That's just a fact. Yes, indeed, there will soon be a "Man of Sin," but there will be many, many more. One of the Original Apostles was also "a devil," and he was chosen by the Lord Himself after praying the whole night!

Had the Gospels been written chronologically as they were witnessed, the record would have spoken quite well of Judas, would it not? Did he not recline next to Jesus at the Lord's Supper? John leaned on the Lord's breast, but the Lord leaned on Judas' breast. Judas was the Lord's personal assistant, His Valet. He had the money bag because he made all the daily arrangements for food and lodging. Yet no one knew Judas' true character under fire, perhaps not even Judas himself. What was recorded in John 13 was totally unknown to all of them except the Lord Himself.

This is the dilemma we all face. Are we seeking the approval of God or man? I'm sure all of these "workers of lawlessness" were loved and appreciated by man, by their congregations. Will not the eventual "Man of Sin" also be viewed as the "savior of the world" establishing "Peace and Security?"

Matthew 7 is a warning to us all, especially those in leadership. I am named after a Franciscan Monk who gave his life to serve God, living a life of poverty, yet he never once spoke to me of Jesus, the Gospel, or the Bible. When I first got saved I was so excited about the Lord, yet my namesake informed the family that I was a radical, and must be in a cult. Who do you think they believed? Yet before my salvation, I was the lawless one, and he was the "holy, Man of God." So ironic.

My point is to not look at these verses simplistically. These verses warn and expose the thoughts and intents of the heart. For all of us. Not just the so-called "bad guys," the obviously unrighteous "sinners," but even those who are deceived by their own works.

bearbear · 04-22-2024, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

My point is to not look at these verses simplistically. These verses warn and expose the thoughts and intents of the heart. For all of us. Not just the so-called "bad guys," the obviously unrighteous "sinners," but even those who are deceived by their own works.

Ultimately God knows our heart. Men can only guess at who are saved and unsaved unless they receive a direct revelation from God. Nevertheless those who take on the name of Christ are warned to "depart" from iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19
But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

Jesus is the "way". To take the way implies embarking on a path to reach a destination. None of us our perfect but if we are truly saved we should be growing in sanctification and love on the path that leads to life. Once we die and eternity sets its seal, God accelerates us on this path to perfection. Both Paul and Peter wrote about walking this path and growing in love.

Phil 3:10-12
that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

2 Peter 1:8-11
For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

bearbear · 04-23-2024, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Both the histories of Israel and the Church are filled with leaders who were "workers of lawlessness." That's just a fact. Yes, indeed, there will soon be a "Man of Sin," but there will be many, many more. One of the Original Apostles was also "a devil," and he was chosen by the Lord Himself after praying the whole night!

Balaam is an interesting case study in the Old Testament. He believed God existed and had intellectual knowledge of God and his ways. When Balak asked Balaam to curse the Israelites, he refused and said he could only speak the words God gave him. This seems like obedience doesn't it?

Numbers 23:11-12
"And Balak said to Balaam, “What have you done to me? I took you to curse my enemies, and behold, you have done nothing but bless them.” And he answered and said, “Must I not take care to speak what the Lord puts in my mouth?”

But Balaam's heart was not right because he abused the gifts God gave him to benefit himself. His real god was himself and money and not the God of Israel. If Balaam sat in our churches today, many evangelicals would likely define him as a believer because of his intellectual knowledge of God. Yet the Apostle Peter clearly declared him as damned, just like Jesus did with Judas.

2 Peter 2:1-2
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.

Here Peter is likely referring to the teachers like the Nicolaitans who adhered to the basic truths outlined in the Nicene Creed but taught that the grace of God allowed them to live for the world and indulge in the lusts of the flesh and still be saved. Their "love" feasts were literally "love" feasts.

2 Peter 2:4,15
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment... Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing

Balaam may have intellectually known God but he didn't know God personally (ginosko). Otherwise he would have realized how truly powerful and loving God was and try to align his heart with God to hate what God hates and love what God loves.

1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

God can even bless people through the message just like he did with Balaam and Judas when he preached the gospel, yet the messenger themselves could be corrupt. The false disciples in Matthew 7:21-23 could have even been doing God's work and blessing others with the gospel all their lives but they were denied entrance to heaven because their heart was not circumcised (Romans 2:28). This is in contrast to the thief on the cross who gave his life to Jesus in the last hour and circumcised his heart and yet was saved. In this picture, salvation is truly a free gift, but you have to circumcise your heart to receive it.

Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Peter's audience in Acts 2 were "cut to the heart", their heart became circumcised when they realized that their sins put Jesus on the cross and they were guilty. They asked Peter what to do and his response was to "repent". Repent means to make a 180 turn away from loving sin to loving God in faith, to turn away from walking the broad path that leads to destruction to the narrow path that leads to life.

Acts 3:19
Now repent of your sins and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped away.

UntoHim · 04-23-2024, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Is there something the exclusive Brethren saw 1800 years later or "recovered" that the Apostles and early church fathers somehow missed?

Maybe the same could be said of Nee and Lee, except they were in the following century. To be sure, we will always do better to neither indiscernibly accept nor hastily reject any doctrine/teaching/practice simply on the basis of who taught said doctrine. In the case of Millennial Exclusion, it was taught by a number of highly educated and world renown men (such as John Nelson Darby) and it was also taught by men of a entirely different ilk, such as Nee and Lee.

So how shall we 21st century Christians measure this doctrine? There are biblical passages that seem to back up this teaching, as aptly provided by our friend Raptor, and there are biblical passages that seem to point us in another direction, which have been given by our friend bearbear. I would submit that we weigh and measure this Millennial Exclusion teaching as we would do with any - by diligently searching the scriptures AND take into account what has been taught by so many of the widely accepted teachers/scholars/apologist down through the ages.
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UntoHim · 04-23-2024, 02:00 PM

Just a quick addendum to my previous post -

If it did nothing else, our Local Church experience should have taught us to always be soberly and carefully considering the practical implications and eventual consequences of any doctrine, teaching or practice. Of course this falls under the "hindsight is 20/20" category, but I guess this is all that is left for us former LC members to do at this point.

This being said, what were the practical implications and eventual consequence of this Kingdom Exclusion teaching in the Local Church of Witness Lee? Did it cause those who imbibed it to love the Lord their God, love their families, love and serve their neighbors and to become a profitable servant for the sake of the gospel and God's Kingdom? Did we become disciples, servants and promoters of the Person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ, or did we become a fan and promoter of the person and work of a mere man and his so-called "Ministry of the Age"?

For your consideration I would present to you one Minoru Chen, who proudly proclaimed that he was "full of Witness Lee's spirit". There is a short video of this out there but I can't seem to find it at this time.
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bearbear · 04-24-2024, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Did it cause those who imbibed it to love the Lord their God, love their families, love and serve their neighbors and to become a profitable servant for the sake of the gospel and God's Kingdom?

The millennial exclusion doctrine changes the nature of many warning passages from being eternal in nature to temporary. Perhaps the warning most related to this question is the one Jesus gave in Mark 8:35-37:

"For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul? For what can a man give in return for his soul?"

Many evangelicals understand Mark 8:35 to be talking about the process of being born again as did many in the early church (for example: https://www.gotquestions.org/dying-to-self.html). In order to take on a new life in Christ, you have to be willing to let the old one go. The consequences of not participating in this exchange is losing your soul for eternity.

The millennial exclusion doctrine would instead teach you are saved by reciting the sinner's prayer and believing the correct divine facts about Jesus at one point in time -- and then you can live your life however you want as the Nicolaitans did at the risk of up to 1000 years of discipline. It basically changes "For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul? " into "For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world but suffer 1000 years of discipline in outer darkness?"

In our earthly existence, if someone gets sentenced to several decades in prison for a heinous crime we might think it's fair because most of their life will have wasted away in prison. However in eternity, 1000 years is really no time at all because as eternal beings we will be able to experience the rest of eternity after any finite amount of time. I had actually made this exact calculation in my head as a lukewarm church kid growing up in the LCs and decided to live selfishly for myself while doing the bare minimum for God and living in sin. Instead of spreading the gospel, I was doing the opposite by living as a hypocrite and damaging the reputation of Christians fulfilling 2 Peter 2:2 "And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed."

For some people they don't need the warning passages and end up loving Jesus regardless. However for people like myself, it wasn't enough. As an eternal being, I also needed the warnings to be eternal and once I understood them to be eternal is when I started to take my faith more seriously and do more research to see if the bible was really true because I didn't want to give my life to something that was false.

Satan offered Jesus the temptation to rule the whole world in Luke 4:6-7 which happens to be the same offer that Jesus describes in Mark 8:35 but it was a deceptive offer because the world is passing away along with its lusts (1 John 2:17). The offer that Jesus gave his followers was much better because it was something could never perish or fade into non-existence- he gave them the offer of eternal life if they would be willing to circumcise their hearts and exchange their old perishing earthly life or it.

Mark 8:35
For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it

Ohio · 04-24-2024, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Maybe the same could be said of Nee and Lee, except they were in the following century. To be sure, we will always do better to neither indiscernibly accept nor hastily reject any doctrine/teaching/practice simply on the basis of who taught said doctrine. In the case of Millennial Exclusion, it was taught by a number of highly educated and world renown men (such as John Nelson Darby) and it was also taught by men of a entirely different ilk, such as Nee and Lee.
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Totally agree, with the exception of the original Apostles.

I have found it interestingly informative to read the contemporaries of these “renowned” teachers, such as JNDarby, who was so marvelously spoken of during my time in the LC’s. As long as someone remains in such an “echo chamber” the more deceived one becomes. For example, reading Groves, Spurgeon, Govett, Newton, etc. completely delivered me from any thought that Darby was some 19th century MOTA, with revelation directly from the Head.

It is my opinion, that Née and Lee followed Darby, not because of their specific teachings, but because of the innate power structure it gave them within their corresponding circles. Within their respective movements, the three were exalted as a modern day Moses. To hold another opinion than their leader was open rebellion, with the earth opening up to swallow you whole. But gifted contemporaries, outside of their systems, were never subject to such fear-mongering as those within, so they had liberty to speak the truth. So, it’s always worthwhile to source from them.

bearbear · 04-24-2024, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I would submit that we weigh and measure this Millennial Exclusion teaching as we would do with any - by diligently searching the scriptures AND take into account what has been taught by so many of the widely accepted teachers/scholars/apologist down through the ages.

I agree scripture should be our basis. If the early church fathers contradicted scriptures then we should ignore them but much of what they wrote was consistent with scripture yet there were heretics in their day as well such as the Gnostics and the Nicolaitans and we know to ignore their teachings since they are contrary to scripture. Yet some of this is self fulfilling because the bible we have today and its composition was largely influenced by the early church fathers through the Holy Spirit.

I'm curious if anyone is meeting at a church that teaches millennial exclusion. I described this doctrine to an associate pastor of my non-denominational church with baptist theology and he scratched his head and thought it was crazy. It does seem to be a relatively obscure doctrine in the evangelical world.

Most of the debate online and in youtube regarding soteriology appears to pit Calvinists vs Arminians and those in between. I currently hold to a theology similar to Leighton Flower's Provisionism which is similar to my church's theology but also follow and am open to Arminian teachers like Sam Shamoun, David Bercot and Joey Schimmel.

In my opinion the burden of scriptural proof is on the millennial exclusion side since if they are wrong, the consequences would be deadly for Christians who are practicing sin and getting deeper into it who think they only have 1000 years of outer darkness to face.

bearbear · 04-25-2024, 07:42 AM

When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness he spoke scripture to him and Jesus in turn quoted scripture back. Jesus used the sword of the Spirit to fight Satan and used scripture to interpret scripture. A lot of scripture is already commentary on other scripture and it happens to be canonical. Knowing this let's revisit Luke 12:46.

Luke 12:46 (NIV)
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers (apiston).

Millennial exclusionists will insist that this is referring to 1000 years of outer darkness but a plain reading will imply that the servant who became disobedient ends up where the other "apiston" (those without faith) are which is the lake of fire (Rev 21:8). To settle the debate, are there other passages of scripture that could provide commentary on this? Was the servant who became disobedient a fake believer hiding among true believers?

Millennial exclusionists will mostly agree that the parable of the tares and wheat in Matthew 13 refers to the saved and the unsaved because the tares are the seed of Satan and their final judgment is in the lake of fire, the fiery furnace. Lets take a look at how Jesus explains this parable:

Matthew 13:40-42
Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Notice Jesus says the angels will "gather out of his kingdom". These weeds were masquerading as members of his kingdom so well that Jesus implies it will be hard to tell them apart in Matthew 13:29 but Jesus says God will eventually remove and sort them out. Could these weeds masquerading as wheat be like the disobedient servants? If they were atheists and adherents of other religions who want nothing to do with Jesus, they would be easy to tell apart and wouldn't profess to be in God's kingdom.

Curiously Jesus uses this imagery again in the parable of the fishermen:

Matthew 13:47-50
“Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Notice that the wicked are separated "from the righteous" again. The bad fish were hiding among the good fish and had to be removed from among them.

Jesus spoke in parables but Paul was more direct in 2 Cor 11:13-15

"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds."

Satan's servants also "disguise themselves as servants of righteousness". If this is the case, man who is a judge of outward appearances (1 Sam 16:7) would likely be deceived regarding who is a true and false believer. Yet Paul suggests there is a way you can guess based on their "deeds". So the true test of a real or false Christian is based on the evidence of "their deeds". Paul repeats this again in Titus 1:16

"They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work."

Paul is simply paraphrasing Jesus' teachings on "you shall know them by their fruit".

Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Here it's not the fruit that is burned, but the tree. This is the context leading up to Matthew 7:21

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven"

Which other posters insist is referring to millennial exclusion, yet the context of Jesus teaching in Matthew 7 is centered on eternity.

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Millennial exclusionists will likely agree this other warning in Matthew 7 on the broad road leading to destruction refers to hell. Yet they will selectively jump through mental gymnastics to explain the other warnings as being temporary in nature. Reading the bible with this view becomes a confusing exercise where reliance on non-canonical commentary thereby becomes a necessity.

bearbear · 04-29-2024, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

There are millions of genuine believers, born again christians that are disobedient: hyporcrites, or live in fornication, or addicted to porn, or divorced their wives without Scriptural ground, or smoke pot and booze, or are homosexuals. They will be judged at the Judgemnt Seat of Christ: many will not inherit the Kingdom.

The Apostle John gave us an interesting warning in 1 John 3:7 "Little children, let no one deceive you." Is it possible that he was prophesying that there will be teachers like WL, WN and the exclusive brethren who would lead us astray to think that someone could practice sin and still be saved? In the rest of 1 John 3, John makes it clear that someone who practices sin is "of the devil" and not born again. It's hard to see how such a person can be saved through a direct reading of the scripture.

1 John 3:7-10 (ESV)
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

If we're relying on commentary to re-interpret passages like this to mean something else, whatever we allow to be the final authority for our understanding becomes "our bible". This is why the life-studies and other kind of commentaries from WN and the exclusive brethren which deviate too far from the original meaning of scripture are so dangerous. I believe it is Satan's way to subvert the authority of God's word by sneakily introducing a replacement without our knowing.

Sunshine · 04-30-2024, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

The pattern in both the Old and New Testaments clearly describes that salvation is a gift by grace through faith, yet ruling and reigining with Christ in the Millenial Kingdom will be a reward earned by works.

For example, to be an elder or deacon in 1 Timothy 3, there are a series of qualififications. If there are requirements other than being a believer to be a leader in a church, which is temporary and very localized, surely there are requirements to be a co-king with Christ in the Millenial Kingdom.

I agree. I think most Christians in general are quite sensitive about teachings/interpretation that contains gaining God's favor, reward, or prize by works. They automatically associate that teaching to be salvation by works and not by grace. I have come across this a lot.

I had to avoid using phrases that causes these "triggers" among the general Christian communities because of its incomplete and misguided associate meaning to salvation.

I find it more helpful to my fellow Christians using phrases like the kingdom reward, or reigning with Christ in the millennial Kingdom is the result of our working out (the living out) of our faith in Christ. This is in line with Philippians 2:12 (working out your salvation with fear and trembling) as well as your quoted verses.

bearbear · 04-30-2024, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunshine

I had to avoid using phrases that causes these "triggers" among the general Christian communities because of its incomplete and misguided associate meaning to salvation.

I find it more helpful to my fellow Christians using phrases like the kingdom reward, or reigning with Christ in the millennial Kingdom is the result of our working out (the living out) of our faith in Christ. This is in line with Philippians 2:12 (working out your salvation with fear and trembling) as well as your quoted verses.

Hi Sunshine thanks for sharing. I'm open to the idea that the millennial reign will be given as a reward selectively to some saints and not others. Though I vehemently disagree that the other saints will suffer in an outer darkness type purgatory (which is really from a works based salvation view), rather perhaps they will be assigned other tasks to carry out in heaven. Yet if the reward was limited to 1000 years, wouldn't it be finite and perishing? If the reward is truly valuable and something to seek after it must also have an element of carrying over into eternity.

1 Cor 9:25
Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

I disagree about Philippians 2:12 referring to only rewards, it is clearly about salvation based on the wording. As you implied, we don't work for our salvation but we work "out" what God put in us through the Holy Spirit. So works is just evidence that we are truly saved. If it was only about rewards, Paul would have used the word "rewards". There isn't a hidden meaning behind Paul's letters unless otherwise indicated. Read a few verses after and we see Paul worrying about "laboring in vain"

Phil 2:16
holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

If the souls that Paul were laboring after were already saved and his ministry to them thereafter only meant the difference between the loss of rewards why would he express such a fear? And if Phil 2:12 was only about rewards, why did Paul add the words "fear and trembling"?

Jesus told us to make disciples because disciples follow Jesus and Jesus said he gives his sheep who follow him eternal life (John 10:27-28). If praying the sinner's prayer once and proceeding to live selfishly in sin for the remainder of one's life was enough for salvation then Jesus should have instructed his followers to go on world tours to get everyone to say the sinner's prayer. Instead, Paul modeled after Jesus' instructions in the great commission to make disciples by visiting churches repeatedly and worrying about the progress of the faith of the saints.

Galatians 4:19
my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!

But what I'm advocating for isn't works salvation -- instead it's "born again" salvation. Being born again requires making room for the free gift of salvation through circumcision of the heart (Rom 2:28-29). The thief on the cross did not say the sinner's prayer but Jesus said he was saved because he circumcised his heart at the last hour. The Pharisees tried all their life to serve God but it was in vain because they did not circumcise their hearts and neither did the false disciples in Matt 7:21-23 who performed mighty miracles but of whom Jesus said "I never knew you, depart from me you workers of lawlessness".

Psalms 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Sunshine · 05-01-2024, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Hi Sunshine thanks for sharing. I'm open to the idea that the millennial reign will be given as a reward selectively to some saints and not others. Though I vehemently disagree that the other saints will suffer in an outer darkness type purgatory (which is really from a works based salvation view), rather perhaps they will be assigned other tasks to carry out in heaven. Yet if the reward was limited to 1000 years, wouldn't it be finite and perishing? If the reward is truly valuable and something to seek after it must also have an element of carrying over into eternity.

1 Cor 9:25
Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

I disagree about Philippians 2:12 referring to only rewards, it is clearly about salvation based on the wording. As you implied, we don't work for our salvation but we work "out" what God put in us through the Holy Spirit. So works is just evidence that we are truly saved. If it was only about rewards, Paul would have used the word "rewards". There isn't a hidden meaning behind Paul's letters unless otherwise indicated. Read a few verses after and we see Paul worrying about "laboring in vain"

Phil 2:16
holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

If the souls that Paul were laboring after were already saved and his ministry to them thereafter only meant the difference between the loss of rewards why would he express such a fear? And if Phil 2:12 was only about rewards, why did Paul add the words "fear and trembling"?

Jesus told us to make disciples because disciples follow Jesus and Jesus said he gives his sheep who follow him eternal life (John 10:27-28). If praying the sinner's prayer once and proceeding to live selfishly in sin for the remainder of one's life was enough for salvation then Jesus should have instructed his followers to go on world tours to get everyone to say the sinner's prayer. Instead, Paul modeled after Jesus' instructions in the great commission to make disciples by visiting churches repeatedly and worrying about the progress of the faith of the saints.

Galatians 4:19
my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!

But what I'm advocating for isn't works salvation -- instead it's "born again" salvation. Being born again requires making room for the free gift of salvation through circumcision of the heart (Rom 2:28-29). The thief on the cross did not say the sinner's prayer but Jesus said he was saved because he circumcised his heart at the last hour. The Pharisees tried all their life to serve God but it was in vain because they did not circumcise their hearts and neither did the false disciples in Matt 7:21-23 who performed mighty miracles but of whom Jesus said "I never knew you, depart from me you workers of lawlessness".

Psalms 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Hello bearbear,

I do agree with you that in Phil 2, Paul does not mention reward. What I was trying to say, is that working out our salvation will lead to reward if we grow unto maturity. There are a quite a few bible verses to support that but I don't quite have them structured on hand yet. Its something I will be putting together progressively as I revisit them.

The 1000 year kingdom, know as the millennial kingdom refers to the kingdom age, the age that to come after the age of grace (we are currently in the age of grace). The 1000 year kingdom age as I understand it, is the same duration as the wedding feast.

The kingdom of God is eternal, but its manifestation is progressive until fullness and to eternity. The time after the 1000 year kingdom age will be the New Jerusalem in the New heaven and new earth. Believers that did not qualify to enter the joy of the master (wedding feast) are still saved, they will be included in the New Heaven and New earth. These are big topics that takes years of study to map and understand. I am still in that process.

Anyway, I don't think this forum is meant for this kind of discussion.

Raptor · 05-01-2024, 03:15 AM

"And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery —just as I have received authority from My Father. And I will give him the morning star." Revelation 2:26-28.

1. written to believers
2. conditional statement
3. IF overcome = authority to rule
4. therefore if NOT overvome = no authority to rule

Don´t add to the Bible or be influeneced by erroneious teachings. Eternal salvation is a free gift and cannot be lost; ruling in the Kingdom is earned and conditional.

05-01-2024, 04:25 AM

1 John 5:1-5
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Romans 8:31-39
31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors (overcomers) through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

****Moderator Note.
In the future, please consider actually posting some sort of commentary or reaction to what is being posted. Just posting verses without commenting does not add to the discussion.
****
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bearbear · 05-01-2024, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunshine

These are big topics that takes years of study to map and understand. I am still in that process.

That's my problem with this view is that it takes years of study of commentary outside of scripture. This view did not become popular in church history until John Darby and it's different enough to be another gospel. The rest of the church prior to this time including the early church fathers did not hold to a view that saying the sinner's prayer without repentance was enough for salvation. Faith and repentance were viewed as being intertwined. Turning away from sin and towards God in faith was viewed as being simultaneous as described in Acts 3 and elsewhere.

Acts 3:19 (NLT)
Now repent of your sins and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped away.

Acts 3:26 (NLT)
When God raised up his servant, Jesus, he sent him first to you people of Israel, to bless you by turning each of you back from your sinful ways.

Luke 13:2-3 (NLT)
Do you think those Galileans were worse sinners than all the other people from Galilee?” Jesus asked. “Is that why they suffered? Not at all! And you will perish, too, unless you repent of your sins and turn to God.

The early Christians who were being persecuted by the Romans and eaten alive by wild animals in the coloseum believed that if they recanted their faith they would not make it to heaven and were given a lot of opportunity to do so. If they believed like John Darby taught many would have likely apostasized to save their own life under extreme pressure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzqDV91AFPo

The faith that the apostles passed down to us is enough, we don't have to change or add to it

Jude 1:4
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

bearbear · 05-01-2024, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

"And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery —just as I have received authority from My Father. And I will give him the morning star." Revelation 2:26-28.

1. written to believers
2. conditional statement
3. IF overcome = authority to rule
4. therefore if NOT overvome = no authority to rule

You are quoting the book of Revelation written by John. The same author John also wrote 1 John 5:4 that the "Unregistered Guy" also shared:

1 John 5:4
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

If everyone born of God overcomes, then every true believer is an overcomer. John also ties overcoming with eternal salvation and the book of life in

Revelation 3:5 (KJV)
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This is consistent with Jesus' teachings in the parable of talents and the four soils where he says:

Matthew 13:12
For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away

Matthew 25:29
For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

So the one who does not overcome was never born again and never attained salvation. Just like in the parable of the unforgiving servant, what he thought he had (salvation) was taken away from him.

Jesus tells the false believers in Matt 7:21-23 "I never knew you". There was never a work that began in them that could be finished (Phil 1:6).

bearbear · 05-01-2024, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Eternal salvation is a free gift and cannot be lost; ruling in the Kingdom is earned and conditional.

Eternal salvation is a gift given by grace through faith (Eph 2:8). But some of the definition of faith is lost in translation to English.

Paul quotes Habbukuk 2:4 three times in the NT: "The righteous shall live by faith" in Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11 and Hebrews 10:38 (assuming he is the author of Hebrews which he may not be).

If you do a Hebrew word study on Habbukuk 2:4, the Hebrew word for faith "emunah" used in the verse actually means much more than "faith" in English. According to Strong's (https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/...brew/0530.html) emunah is "firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness".

Fidelity means "faithfulness" just like in the context of a marriage relationship. So faith is like faithfulness within a marriage. And a Greek word study on "pistis" would be consistent with this view:
https://thelogosofagape.wordpress.co...ek-word-study/

When evangelicals say that Christianity is more than a religion but a "personal relationship" with Jesus they are perhaps more correct than they know. Jesus said in John 17:13 "And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

Someone who is practicing sin cannot be in relationship with Jesus, because Jesus would be instructing them to turn away from sin. This is also what the Apostle John wrote in:

1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

Someone who does not know Jesus personally does not have eternal life. Someone who knows Jesus personally will not continue in sin.

1 John 3:7-8
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil...

bearbear · 05-01-2024, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunshine

The 1000 year kingdom, know as the millennial kingdom refers to the kingdom age, the age that to come after the age of grace (we are currently in the age of grace). The 1000 year kingdom age as I understand it, is the same duration as the wedding feast.

Like the early church fathers, I also hold to pre-millenialism though more towards the "historic" / progressive dispensational flavor and not an extreme dispensational version.
https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-boo...pensationalism

We are under the age of grace, but grace is not a license to sin (Romans 6). There are actually higher expectations under grace. Jesus said if more is given, more will also be required (Luke 12:48). Jesus said if we don't forgive others, neither will the Father forgive us (Matt 6:14-15). And in the sermon on the mount Jesus said, if we look at a woman with lust we have committed adultery and if we call our brother a bad name we are liable to hell (Matthew 5).

This shows our need for Christ's forgiveness but also our need for the Holy Spirit to empower us to overcome. It's not our own flesh or effort that saves us but the Holy Spirit who works in us through God's grace (Romans 8:12-13).

The writer of Hebrews also shares this view and says that those who continue in sin will get a worse punishment under the New Covenant than the old one.

Just as New Testament grace should not be used as a license for deliberate sin (Romans 6) but was intended for unintentional sins to empower Jesus' followers trying to walk the narrow way that leads to life, the animal sacrifices in the Old Testament were also intended to atone for the people's unintentional sins according to

Hebrews 9:7:
"but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people."

This is in reference to passages such as Numbers 15:30-31 (NLT)
“But those who brazenly violate the Lord’s will, whether native-born Israelites or foreigners, have blasphemed the Lord, and they must be cut off from the community. Since they have treated the Lord’s word with contempt and deliberately disobeyed his command, they must be completely cut off and suffer the punishment for their guilt.”

Willful sin such as murder and adultery resulted in stoning in the law of Moses and the writer of Hebrews is saying how worse a punishment there will be for false Christians who use grace as a license to sin since they are profaning not the blood of animals, but the blood of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:26-31
"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Raptor · 05-14-2024, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

If it did nothing else, our Local Church experience should have taught us to always be soberly and carefully considering the practical implications and eventual consequences of any doctrine, teaching or practice. Of course this falls under the "hindsight is 20/20" category, but I guess this is all that is left for us former LC members to do at this point.

This being said, what were the practical implications and eventual consequence of this Kingdom Exclusion teaching in the Local Church of Witness Lee? Did it cause those who imbibed it to love the Lord their God, love their families, love and serve their neighbors and to become a profitable servant for the sake of the gospel and God's Kingdom? Did we become disciples, servants and promoters of the Person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ, or did we become a fan and promoter of the person and work of a mere man and his so-called "Ministry of the Age"? -

The practical implications and consequences (PI&C) of any doctrines, teachings and practices should be evaluated independently in the light of the Word of God. PI&C can vary widely on a large scale and range depending on many factors. If any PI&C is bad or unhealthy, it does not necessarily mean that the doctrine, teaching or practice is bad. And if any PI&C is good or healthy, that does not necessarily mean that the doctrine, teaching or practice is good. You need to evaluate each one according to the Word.

EXAMPLES IN THE BIBLE:
A.)
Good Doctrine, Teaching, Practice
In Numbers 21:8-9, God instructed Moses to make a fiery serpent and mount it on a pole. If anyone who had been bitten by a snake looked at the bronze snake, he would live.
Bad Practical Implication & Consequence
In 2 Kings 18:14 the people of Israel had turned the serpent into an idol and had been offering sacrifices to it.
Conclusion: that some turned the bronze serpent into an idol does not annul the validity of its original fabrication and proper use, even if it had to be destroyed later to prevent idolatry. Jesus validated the existence and proper usage surrounding the bronze serpent and indicated it was actually a type of His death and salvation in John 3:14.

B)
Bad Doctrine, Teaching, Practice
In Phillipians 1:15-17 some were preaching Christ out of envy and rivalry, with false motives, preaching Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they could add distress to the imprisonment of Paul.
Good Practical Implication & Consequence
In Phillipians 1:18 Paul rejoiced and continued to rejoice because in every way, even if by false motives, Christ was preached.
Conclusion: a good result is always desired, but that does not justify the means. We should always preach Christ out of goodwill and true motives.

-----------------
You can find similar examples in all of Christianity today and actually these same principles could apply to family life, companies, organizations, governments, marriages, soccer teams, etc. etc.

The Word is clear and its warnings and admonitions literal, precise and concise: all believers will appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ for reward or loss, to receive back according to the good or evil done, 1 Cor. 3:14-15, 2 Cor, 5:10. Regardless of the type or duration of any loss or repayment for evil works, (whether it is exclusion, separation, rebuke, discipline, or punishment), we need to have a good and healthy attitude towards our accountability, one another, and the Lord´s judgement. Bad practical implications and consequences do not annul the good doctrines, teachings and practices about reward/discipline, the Judgement Seat of Christ and His coming Kingdom.

"I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and encourage with every form of patient instruction." 2 Tim. 4:1-2.

bearbear · 05-14-2024, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

all believers will appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ for reward or loss, to receive back according to the good or evil done

I believe as well that all true believers will appear before the Judgment seat of Christ. However, in Acts 8 we have an example of a false believer, Simon the Magician.

Acts 8:13
Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.

So Simon believed and was baptized but was he a truly born again believer?

Acts 8:18-24
Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

First, all Simon did was ask Peter a single question, yet many other self professed believers have done far worse evil throughout human history.

Someone who is truly saved will have eternal life but Peter said Simon would perish. Peter also said Simon's heart was not right which means he was not given a new heart per Ezekiel 36:26. He also confirmed that Simon was still in the bond of iniquity. The Greek word for iniquity here is adikias and is the same word Jesus used in Luke 13:27 "away from me all you who do evil (adikias)".

There are many scripture that confirms the idea that someone who is still a slave to sin is not saved. I will share some here but there are many more you can find.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

1 John 3:4-10
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Interestingly Simon feels sorry and goes on to ask Peter to pray for him in Acts 8:24. However, saying sorry is not necessarily enough for true repentance because Judas felt sorry for betraying Jesus and Saul felt sorry for persecuting David, yet neither one's hearts were right before God. Godly sorrow produces true repentance as in the case of Peter denying Jesus but worldly sorrow leads to death as in the case of Judas.

The early church fathers went on to write what happened to Simon the Magician. According to Iranaeus, disciple of Polycarp, disciple of the Apostle John in "Against Heresies (Book I, Chapter 23)" titled "Doctrines and practices of Simon Magus and Menander.", Simon became a promoter of gnosticism and did not repent. You can read about it here: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103123.htm

bearbear · 05-23-2024, 08:42 AM

ChatGPT-4o on millennial and kingdom exclusion

Q: Where did the doctrine of millennial or kingdom exclusion where the warnings in the New Testament about being excluded from the kingdom refers to the millennial kingdom of Christ after his return and not the eternal kingdom of Christ originate from?

The doctrine of millennial or kingdom exclusion is a relatively niche and debated topic within Christian eschatology. This view interprets certain New Testament warnings about being excluded from the kingdom as referring specifically to the millennial kingdom of Christ, a 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth after his return, rather than the eternal kingdom of God. Here's a brief overview of its origins and development:

19th Century Roots: The concept gained some attention in the 19th century, particularly among certain dispensationalist circles. Dispensationalism is a theological framework that emphasizes the division of history into distinct periods or "dispensations," each marked by different ways God interacts with humanity. Some dispensationalists began to interpret certain biblical warnings about the kingdom as referring to a temporary exclusion from the millennial kingdom rather than eternal damnation.
Key Proponents: One of the early proponents of this view was Robert Govett (1813-1901), an English pastor and theologian. Govett's writings on the subject laid a foundation for others who would later develop and promote the doctrine of millennial exclusion. He argued that certain unfaithful Christians would be excluded from reigning with Christ during the millennium but would still be saved eternally.
20th Century Developments: The doctrine was further developed in the 20th century by authors such as Watchman Nee and others within the Plymouth Brethren and other dispensationalist groups. They emphasized the idea that the millennial kingdom would be a reward for faithful Christians, while unfaithful Christians would face temporary exclusion and loss of rewards during this period.
Scriptural Basis: Proponents of millennial exclusion often cite passages such as Matthew 25:14-30 (the Parable of the Talents), 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, and Hebrews 12:14-17. They argue that these passages warn of loss of rewards and exclusion from the millennial reign for unfaithfulness, but not of eternal separation from God.
Criticism and Controversy: The doctrine is not widely accepted and has faced significant criticism from many within mainstream Christianity. Critics argue that it creates a two-tiered system of salvation and rewards that is not clearly supported by Scripture. They also contend that it undermines the assurance of salvation and the unity of the body of Christ.

Overall, the doctrine of millennial exclusion remains a controversial and debated topic within certain eschatological frameworks. Its origins can be traced back to 19th-century dispensationalist interpretations and have been further developed by subsequent theologians and authors.

Q: Did the early church fathers teach anything like this?

The early church fathers did not explicitly teach the doctrine of millennial or kingdom exclusion as it is understood in some modern dispensationalist circles. However, they did have diverse views on the millennium and the kingdom of God. Here are some key points regarding their teachings:

Millennial Views: Several early church fathers held to a form of premillennialism (chiliasm), which is the belief in a literal 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth following his return. Notable proponents of this view included Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian. They believed in a future earthly kingdom where Christ would reign with his saints.
Eternal Kingdom: The early church fathers also affirmed the belief in the eternal kingdom of God, where the final state of the redeemed would be eternal life with God in the new heavens and new earth. This belief is reflected in the writings of fathers such as Augustine, who later developed an amillennial perspective, seeing the millennium as symbolic of the church age.
Exclusion and Rewards: While the early church fathers did discuss the concepts of rewards and punishment, their focus was primarily on eternal salvation and damnation rather than a temporary exclusion from a millennial kingdom. They emphasized the need for holiness and faithfulness, warning against apostasy and unrepentant sin.
Warnings in Scripture: The warnings in the New Testament about being excluded from the kingdom of God were generally interpreted by early church fathers as referring to eternal exclusion rather than a temporary state during the millennium. They urged believers to live righteously to inherit the eternal kingdom.

For example:

Irenaeus: In his work "Against Heresies," Irenaeus discussed the resurrection and the kingdom, emphasizing the eternal rewards for the righteous and the eternal punishment for the wicked.
Justin Martyr: In his "Dialogue with Trypho," Justin Martyr spoke of a future resurrection and kingdom, but he did not elaborate on a temporary exclusion from the millennial kingdom for unfaithful believers.
Augustine: In his later works, Augustine developed an amillennial view, interpreting the millennium as symbolic and focusing on the eternal state of believers rather than a distinct millennial reign with temporary exclusions.

In summary, the early church fathers did not teach the specific doctrine of millennial exclusion as understood in some modern dispensationalist views. Their teachings on the kingdom of God primarily focused on eternal salvation and damnation, with varied interpretations of the millennium and the nature of Christ's reign.

Q: Since the early church fathers were disciples or indirect disciples of the Apostles, is it reasonable to assume that the Apostles themselves did not hold to millennial or kingdom exclusion?

Given that the early church fathers were direct disciples or indirect disciples of the Apostles and did not explicitly teach the doctrine of millennial or kingdom exclusion, it is reasonable to infer that the Apostles themselves likely did not hold to this specific view. Here are a few points to consider:

Continuity of Teaching: The early church fathers often sought to preserve and faithfully transmit the teachings they received from the Apostles. If the doctrine of millennial exclusion had been a significant part of apostolic teaching, it is likely that it would have been reflected in the writings and teachings of these early church fathers. The absence of such teachings in their writings suggests that it was not a doctrine emphasized by the Apostles.
Scriptural Interpretation: The Apostles' writings in the New Testament focus on the assurance of salvation, the need for perseverance in faith, and the final judgment. Key passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, Hebrews 12:14-17, and the Parables of Jesus do contain warnings and exhortations, but they are generally understood by the early church as addressing eternal consequences rather than a temporary exclusion from a millennial kingdom.
Eschatological Views: The early church fathers, including those with premillennial views, did not delineate a specific period of millennial exclusion for unfaithful believers. Instead, they emphasized the hope of resurrection and eternal life for the faithful and eternal separation from God for the unfaithful. This focus aligns with the broader eschatological themes found in the New Testament.
Lack of Historical Evidence: There is no substantial historical evidence from the early Christian writings or traditions to support the idea that the Apostles taught a doctrine of millennial exclusion. The development of this doctrine appears to be a later theological construct rather than a direct continuation of apostolic teaching.

In conclusion, based on the teachings of the early church fathers and the absence of evidence for millennial exclusion in their writings, it is reasonable to assume that the Apostles themselves did not hold to this specific view. The early Christian focus on eternal consequences rather than temporary exclusion aligns with the broader New Testament message and the teachings preserved by the early church fathers.

bearbear · 05-23-2024, 09:41 PM

According to ChatGPT, I may have misrepresented John Darby and for that I apologize. According to the transcript below, John Darby did not hold to millennial or kingdom exclusion and it seems like it was more of an estoeric doctrine that developed within the umbrella of dispensationalism by theologians like Robert Govett.

Also, it seems like John Darby did hold to the view of faith encompassing repentance from sin much like other evangelicals today. Others here more familiar with John Darby's writings can correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like I would agree with Darby on a lot of points except for the timing of the rapture.

Quote:

Q: Did John Nelson Darby believe in millennial exclusion?
John Nelson Darby, a 19th-century theologian and one of the founders of the Plymouth Brethren movement, is primarily known for developing and promoting dispensationalism and the pre-tribulation rapture theory. Millennial exclusion, also known as "partial rapture" or "selective rapture," is a belief that only certain believers will be raptured or enter the millennial kingdom based on their level of faithfulness and obedience, while less faithful believers will be excluded or face some form of disciplinary period.

Darby did not advocate for millennial exclusion. His teachings focused on the pre-tribulation rapture, where all true believers would be taken up before a period of tribulation and then return with Christ to reign during the millennium. Darby emphasized the distinction between Israel and the Church in God's prophetic plan and did not support the idea that some believers would be excluded from the rapture or the millennial kingdom based on their works or faithfulness.

Instead, Darby's eschatology is characterized by the belief in the imminent return of Christ for His Church, where all believers, regardless of their spiritual maturity, would be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

Quote:

Q: What was John Darby's view of salvation? Do you have to repent?

John Nelson Darby's view of salvation is rooted in the doctrines of grace and the authority of Scripture. He believed that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone and not by works. This perspective aligns with the broader Protestant understanding of salvation as articulated in the doctrines of the Reformation.

Regarding repentance, Darby did acknowledge its importance in the context of salvation. Here are some key aspects of his views on salvation and repentance:

Grace and Faith: Darby emphasized that salvation is a gift from God, received through faith in Jesus Christ. He held that human effort or works cannot earn salvation.
Repentance: While Darby believed in the necessity of repentance, he viewed it as intrinsically linked to faith. Repentance, in his theology, involves a genuine turning away from sin and a turning towards God, which is a natural part of coming to faith in Christ. It is an acknowledgment of one's sinfulness and need for a Savior.
Conversion and New Birth: Darby taught that true conversion involves a new birth, a transformation brought about by the Holy Spirit. This new birth results in a changed life and a new orientation towards God.
Security of the Believer: He also believed in the eternal security of the believer, meaning that once a person is truly saved, they cannot lose their salvation. This security is based on God's faithfulness and the completed work of Christ.

In summary, John Nelson Darby held that repentance is an essential aspect of the process of salvation, but it is not a work that earns salvation. Instead, it is a response to God's grace and an integral part of coming to faith in Jesus Christ.

Ohio · 05-24-2024, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Q: Where did the doctrine of millennial or kingdom exclusion where the warnings in the New Testament about being excluded from the kingdom refers to the millennial kingdom of Christ after his return and not the eternal kingdom of Christ originate from?

The doctrine of millennial or kingdom exclusion is a relatively niche and debated topic within Christian eschatology. This view interprets certain New Testament warnings about being excluded from the kingdom as referring specifically to the millennial kingdom of Christ, a 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth after his return, rather than the eternal kingdom of God. Here's a brief overview of its origins and development:

19th Century Roots: The concept gained some attention in the 19th century, particularly among certain dispensationalist circles. Dispensationalism is a theological framework that emphasizes the division of history into distinct periods or "dispensations," each marked by different ways God interacts with humanity. Some dispensationalists began to interpret certain biblical warnings about the kingdom as referring to a temporary exclusion from the millennial kingdom rather than eternal damnation.
Key Proponents: One of the early proponents of this view was Robert Govett (1813-1901), an English pastor and theologian. Govett's writings on the subject laid a foundation for others who would later develop and promote the doctrine of millennial exclusion. He argued that certain unfaithful Christians would be excluded from reigning with Christ during the millennium but would still be saved eternally.
20th Century Developments: The doctrine was further developed in the 20th century by authors such as Watchman Nee and others within the Plymouth Brethren and other dispensationalist groups. They emphasized the idea that the millennial kingdom would be a reward for faithful Christians, while unfaithful Christians would face temporary exclusion and loss of rewards during this period.
Scriptural Basis: Proponents of millennial exclusion often cite passages such as Matthew 25:14-30 (the Parable of the Talents), 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, and Hebrews 12:14-17. They argue that these passages warn of loss of rewards and exclusion from the millennial reign for unfaithfulness, but not of eternal separation from God.
Criticism and Controversy: The doctrine is not widely accepted and has faced significant criticism from many within mainstream Christianity. Critics argue that it creates a two-tiered system of salvation and rewards that is not clearly supported by Scripture. They also contend that it undermines the assurance of salvation and the unity of the body of Christ.

Here we touch on a deeper matter of the truth mostly misunderstood by most. Robert Govett did expound on these unpopular truths concerning Christian rewards and punishment when He returns. Reading his books always impresses the reader with brilliant careful exposition of scripture, regardless of the prevailing thoughts. Others before him presented fragments of the picture, but he put it together most clearly all the verses of Scripture.

GH Lang and DM Panton both built on his scholarship. Govett was challenged by many of his peers, which only served to refine the presentation of the details of the truth. He was always the Christian gentleman which won him the respect of his peers like Alford, Spurgeon, Darby, Newton, and many others. Sadly, there are very few today who teach these truths, and their books are nearly lost in the Christian public.

I agree that the scripture clearly presents a "two-tiered system of salvation and rewards." This corresponds with the two judgment seats which are to come. The Bema Seat of Christ is only for the regenerated children of God, the members of His great house. The Great White Throne is for those who are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Let me quote fragments from what I just read yesterday from Govett's pamhlet, "Sins Before Faith & Sins After Faith." (Page 34)

There are TWO SALVATIONS spoken of in the New Testament. The first is that which is possessed already by faith, and which ends assuredly in everlasting life.

But there is a future salvation, which looks onward to the day of Christ's appearing as its time of possession.

The gift of God is one thing; and it is received by grace. The prize of God is another thing; and it is to be won, as its name shows, according to works. For two objects are set before the eyes of the disciples (1.) ETERNAL LIFE, and (2.) THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM.

bearbear · 05-24-2024, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

The gift of God is one thing; and it is received by grace.

I believe grace also empowers us to be slaves to righteousness.

Quote:

Romans 6:17-18
"But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Would Govett view a self professed Christian such as Ravi Zacharias as saved? Ravi practiced sin and sexually abused women and guilt tripped them to stay silent using his religious status.

Would he also view an apostate like Bart Ehrmann as saved? Erhmann studied theology at Wheaton College as a believing evangelical but later turned away from the faith and made it his life's mission to deconstruct the faith of millions of believers as a bible scholar who denies the resurrection of Jesus.

Would Govett agree with the Apostle John when he wrote:

Quote:

1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

Ohio · 05-24-2024, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Would Govett view a self professed Christian such as Ravi Zacharias as saved? Ravi practiced sin and sexually abused women and guilt tripped them to stay silent using his religious status.

Would he also view an apostate like Bart Ehrmann as saved? Erhmann studied theology at Wheaton College as a believing evangelical but later turned away from the faith and made it his life's mission to deconstruct the faith of millions of believers as a bible scholar who denies the resurrection of Jesus.

Would Govett agree with the Apostle John when he wrote:

Saved from what? Saved from the fiery lake or saved from His judgment at the Bema Seat?

According to their own testimony, both Ehrmann and Zacharias have testified of being saved by grace, born of God. If true, they will never perish. The Bible says this plainly and clearly in many verses throughout scripture. We have discussed both of them, especially Ehrmann and his apostasy, on this forum for years.

Admittedly Ehrmann's situation is precarious. He has professed to be both agnostic and atheistic. Zacharias is easier. He is a believer who will be judged by the Lord like the rest of us. (2 Cor 5.10) Paul also makes it clear that many of us will suffer loss and will be burnt, yet we will be "saved, yet thru fire." (I Cor 3.13-15)

bearbear · 05-24-2024, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Admittedly Ehrmann's situation is precarious. He has professed to be both agnostic and atheistic.

According to 1 Cor 15:2 and Phil 2:16 the faith Ehrmann had in the past is in vain if he doesn't repent and believe before the end of his life.

Quote:

1 Cor 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Philippians 2:16
holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

Quote:

Zacharias is easier. He is a believer who will be judged by the Lord like the rest of us. (2 Cor 5.10) Paul also makes it clear that many of us will suffer loss and will be burnt, yet we will be "saved, yet thru fire." (I Cor 3.13-15)

The context of 1 Cor 3:13-15 are ministers in Christ who are laboring over churches and their good works.

Quote:

1 Cor 3:8-9
The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

The fire will reveal the quality of the work. If the work was done out of selfish motivations instead of love, the work will be burned up.

Quote:

1 Cor 3:13
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

The passage distinguishes between the quality of a believer’s good works (gold, silver, precious stones versus wood, hay, straw) and does not address ongoing sinful behavior. It is about the fruitfulness and impact of their ministry, not habitual wickedness which is the sign of a mouth professing believer who is not truly born again.

Quote:

Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

1 John 3:8
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

John 8:34-36
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

Luke 13:2-3
And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Raptor · 06-05-2024, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

, ....not habitual wickedness which is the sign of a mouth professing believer who is not truly born again.

All genuine, born again believers still have the flesh and are capable of any sin, including habitual sin. Believers still have free will and the flesh, and can either walk by the Spirit or by the flesh. This warning in Galatians 5 is addressed to believers, and explains it clearly: believers can walk either by the Spirit or by the flesh:

"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of THE FLESH. For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. The acts of THE FLESH are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies."

Open your eyes, don´t you know that thousands of born again believers habitually watch porn? Genuine brothers have repeatedly sexually abused sisters or even their own daughters? Real christians have improperly divorced and remarried, living in adultery. Young regenerated college age believers habitually party, get drunk, smoke pot and commit fornication. Tens of thousands of born againers practice habitual masturbation, lusting in their hearts after their own pornographic imaginations and fantasies. Some sisters have had abortions...and some brothers practice homosexuality. (and please, no backdoor interpretaion nonsense like, "oh, if one of them gratifies the flesh, he was never really saved" or "such a one is just a professing believer").

bearbear · 06-05-2024, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

All genuine, born again believers still have the flesh and are capable of any sin, including habitual sin. Believers still have free will and the flesh, and can either walk by the Spirit or by the flesh. This warning in Galatians 5 is addressed to believers, and explains it clearly: believers can walk either by the Spirit or by the flesh:

"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of THE FLESH. For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. The acts of THE FLESH are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies."

Open your eyes, don´t you know that thousands of born again believers habitually watch porn? Genuine brothers have repeatedly sexually abused sisters or even their own daughters? Real christians have improperly divorced and remarried, living in adultery. Young regenerated college age believers habitually party, get drunk, smoke pot and commit fornication. Tens of thousands of born againers practice habitual masturbation, lusting in their hearts after their own pornographic imaginations and fantasies. Some sisters have had abortions...and some brothers practice homosexuality. (and please, no backdoor interpretaion nonsense like, "oh, if one of them gratifies the flesh, he was never really saved" or "such a one is just a professing believer").

The passage concerning the war between the flesh and the spirit Raptor quoted is from Galatians 5 whose conclusion includes verse 24

Quote:

Galatians 5:24
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

A war will ultimately have a winner and a loser. If the sinful nature loses the battle, the outcome will be that the person will thereby crucify their flesh with its passions and desires and thereby belong to Jesus.

Paul also describes this spiritual battle in Romans 8:5-9 and says the Holy Spirit must ultimately come to master the person and not their sinful nature.

Quote:

Romans 8:5-9 (NLT)
Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.

But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)

Paul says that if someone truly belongs to Christ, the Spirit of God will be living in them and controlling them instead of their sinful nature. Yes true believers who are born again of the Holy Spirit may still sin, but they won't be mastered by their sinful nature. It's the difference between rolling in dirt and falling in dirt.

Quote:

Romans 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Ephesians 4:22-24
You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me

In the LCs we did not have good examples of people who had victory over sin because of doctrines like kingdom exclusion which provided people with a false assurance of salvation who were still living in sin with an unrepentant heart. However you can find many such testimonies in evangelical Christianity of people having victory over addiction.

Here are some examples from delafetestimonies Youtube channel

You can also browse online communities like https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/ and it will be filled with testimonies of Christians trying to overcome addiction and filled with encouragement and advice. These type of resources simply didn't exist and were never promoted in the LCs so I can understand how the perception can be that being set free from addiction and sin seems impossible.

Quote:

John 8:34-36
"Jesus replied, 'Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'"

Raptor · 06-12-2024, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

The passage concerning the war between the flesh and the spirit Raptor quoted is from Galatians 5 whose conclusion includes verse 24. A war will ultimately have a winner and a loser. If the sinful nature loses the battle, the outcome will be that the person will thereby crucify their flesh with its passions and desires and thereby belong to Jesus.

Yes, but are you missing the point? They will crucify their flesh IF they are willing, IF they obey, IF they submit. Believers still have a choice. If they do, they will receive a reward. That´s the point of Paul´s warnings, to motivate them to choose, to obey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

In the LCs we did not have good examples of people who had victory over sin because of doctrines like kingdom exclusion which provided people with a false assurance of salvation who were still living in sin with an unrepentant heart.

This statement is full of contradictions, it makes no sense. By definition, "kingdom exclusion" does NOT convey a false assurance of salvation, but the opposite, it is a warning that you may suffer loss. And kingdom exclusion is not about assurance of eternal salvation or not, it is about the Millenial Kingdom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

However you can find many such testimonies in evangelical Christianity of people having victory over addiction.

Now you are making sense. Yes, that´s called overcoming. That´s the point, having victory is "earned", get it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

I can understand how the perception can be that being set free from addiction and sin seems impossible.

Do you have that perception? Because I don´t. Of course a believer can be set free from addiction and sin. It is called living a victorious life and it is earned, that´s the point. If you pay the price and live a victorious life, you are on the way to get the reward; if you don´t, you won´t. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

bearbear · 06-12-2024, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Yes, but are you missing the point? They will crucify their flesh IF they are willing, IF they obey, IF they submit. Believers still have a choice. If they do, they will receive a reward. That´s the point of Paul´s warnings, to motivate them to choose, to obey.

You completely ignored the points I was making in my previous post because it directly contradicts your salvation theology and you perhaps do not know how to deal with it. Again, Paul says in Galatians 5:24 that those who belong to Jesus have crucified their flesh. It is not optional. Someone who does not crucify their flesh does not belong to Jesus. Just read the verse.

Galatians 5:24 (NLT)
Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there.

And again in Romans 8:9 someone who is controlled by their sinful nature does not belong to Christ. Such a person is not saved. Just read the verse.

Romans 8:9 (NLT)
But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Do you have that perception? Because I don´t. Of course a believer can be set free from addiction and sin. It is called living a victorious life and it is earned, that´s the point. If you pay the price and live a victorious life, you are on the way to get the reward; if you don´t, you won´t. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

See 1 John 5:4 (ESV)
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.

Everyone who is born again overcomes. Someone who does not overcome is not born again. I'm just sharing you plain reading of verses and you don't know how to deal or respond with it and have no scripture to back up your assertions.

03-18-2024, 10:49 PM	#1
Raptor Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 414	Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned The pattern in both the Old and New Testaments clearly describes that salvation is a gift by grace through faith, yet ruling and reigining with Christ in the Millenial Kingdom will be a reward earned by works. For example, to be an elder or deacon in 1 Timothy 3, there are a series of qualififications. If there are requirements other than being a believer to be a leader in a church, which is temporary and very localized, surely there are requirements to be a co-king with Christ in the Millenial Kingdom.

03-19-2024, 11:16 AM	#2
TheStarswillFall Member Join Date: Aug 2023 Posts: 38	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned What do you do with Gal 3:1-6 ? Paul says that the believer should CONTINUE his course in the same principle he BEGAN his course - by RECEIVING the Spirit through the hearing of FAITH (just like Abraham). Approved WORKS are an issue of genuine faith, just like justification, forgiveness, regeneration, sanctification etc. Please note that the work is actually God's work. 1 Cor 3:10-15 also states that believers BUILD upon the FOUNDATION which is Christ. What are the available materials? Gold, silver and precious stones (God's work) .... wood, grass and stubble (man's work) No man can EARN anything before God. God will always point you to His Christ! Lay hold of Christ and His work, and God will richly reward you with His kingdom - Gal 6:16-23. The kingdom of God is the full development of the kingdom seed within man (Mark 4:26-29). You don't EARN the kingdom, you RECEIVE it by FAITHin Christ Jesus through God's GRACE- in the very SAME PRINCIPLE you received the kingdom seed to begin with! What did Jesus say? "Apart from Me YOU CAN DO (earn) NOTHING" Eternal Salvation is free (yet Christ paid the highest price for us to receive salvation) Reigning with Christ is free (yet Christ overcame and sat with His Father on His throne for us to reign with Him) O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before whose eyes Christ was openly portrayed crucified? Only one thing I wish to learn from you, did you RECEIVE THE SPIRIT... After BEGINNING by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to FINISH by means of the flesh (earning it by your own effort)??????

03-19-2024, 05:35 PM	#5
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 5,631	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned My formative views were affected by being in the LC.. my initial (LC) view was that all were saved, came thru the water & cloud & fire but many (most) perished in the wilderness. (cf 1 Cor 10; Heb 3) They were saved (grace) from Egypt but not saved (faithful in good works) into the Good Land. That's the LC view that I remember. Kinda-sorta saved. Redeemed but not overcoming, not reigning in life. But then I looked at Moses. Fell in the Wilderness, yet with Christ on the Mountain in Transfiguration. I guess dying outside the Good Land was not so bad if you were on Mount Pisgah (I guess). So over time, after leaving the LC, it evolved. Today, depending on what day it is, or what hour of the day, you will get my thoughts at the moment. Here's my recent ruminations. In anything, in our Christian universe, as delineated by Scripture text, the reality is in Christ Jesus in his relations with the Father. This is our faith, not in ourselves but in him. So I look at Scripture: I come to do Thy will, O God... Christ is 'doing' but not 'doing', really, because God is doing through Christ. That was Jesus' interpretation of Scripture, as seen in the Gospels. When Christ speaks, it is not Christ but the Father speaking thru Christ. My point is that to Christ speaking in the Gospel accounts, it is not Christ but the Father. To Christ, there is no "I" to do any work. Christ says, "You (Father) have done this". Christ is merely the obedient vessel of the Father's work. In some sense, his consciousness has sunk into God, where he can see nothing speak nothing do nothing but the Father's will. Now, we as believers also (by faith) see Christ in the Father. We see the eternal will of God carried out through Jesus Christ. Our will, and our consciousness, begin (fitfully and slowly, I know) to merge with his. When Christ died, his last gurgled words were "It is finished". If you look at the end of Psalm 22, it says, He [the Father] has done it. The Father's will be done on Earth as in Heaven. There is nothing else, there is no other work. Jesus went around "doing good works" according to his companion Peter (see the gospel message in Acts 10, esp v 38), but all those good works were the Father working out through Jesus. "When you see me, you see the Father". There is only one work, that of the Father, through Jesus Christ. __________________ "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'

03-22-2024, 08:46 PM	#6
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned Protestants generally agree that Salvation is by faith alone but Christians disagree over what constitutes faith which is important because that is the means by which we are saved. One view is that the Greek word translated to faith (pistis) has a wide variety of meaning in the NT and is sometimes translated as "faithfulness" depending on the context. Matthew Bates in "Salvation by Allegiance" alone contends that "pistis" should be understood as "allegiance" which encompasses mental agreement, fidelity, loyalty, etc. He cites as an example, a Jewish rebel who wrote a letter urging people to "repent and believe [pistis] in him" as means to join his cause, using the same language as the New Testament Greek during the same time period. [https://thelogosofagape.wordpress.co...ek-word-study/] Another view is that faith is both mental agreement and trust and that obedience is a fruit of faith. This view is held by theologians like Wayne Grudem (see [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujtk2ZGzHkw]). Notice in John 3:36 that obedience and belief are almost used interchangeably perhaps because they are so closely interconnected. John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him. Another view closer to LCs is that faith is just mental agreement alone. I agree mental agreement to the correct divine facts is important. For example if I mentally agree that Jesus was a created being, the archangel Michael and that he was a spirit being who never died but only ascended to heaven, that kind of Jesus will not save me. Two examples in the OT provide an interesting case study: David and Balaam. Both mentally agreed that Yahweh was God but only David directed his allegiance/love/obedience towards God whereas Balaam was really loyal to himself and money. David murdered, stole, lied and committed adultery yet he was ultimately saved. Balaam may have not committed such sins and was even used by God to prophesy and speak truth but he was disobedient in his heart and he was ultimately damned according to 2 Peter 2. I think there is some wisdom to focusing on faith even if it is just to increase one's level of mental agreement. I found the more I research about the veracity and trustworthiness of the bible which helps me to be fully convinced of the gospel, the more I am able to become obedient with little effort. I find that the more I believe, the more God puts desires in my heart to do his will and to love the things he loves and hate the things he hates. In the past I focused on good works or overcoming addiction by my own effort without focusing on developing faith and it often failed. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is able to work through us according to the measure of our faith. 1 John 5:4 ESV For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. __________________ 1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. Last edited by bearbear; 03-23-2024 at 08:44 AM.

04-02-2024, 09:10 PM	#19
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned Romans 6:21-22 also juxtaposes death and eternal life directly: "But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." If "death" is the opposite of "eternal life", is it too far of a stretch to link this to the "death" or "second death" in Revelation 20:14: "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." John 8:24 "I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”" __________________ 1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

04-10-2024, 09:34 AM	#27
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned We both agree there will be a millennial reign of Christ and rewards related to it. We just disagree on whether the warnings concerning missing out on the "kingdom" in the New Testament are related to a finite 1000 year reign or the eternal kingdom of God. In the same way that the seventh day Sabbath is a shadow of our true rest in Christ that is never-ending (Hebrews 4), so is the millennial reign of Christ, a shadow of the upcoming new heavens and new earth which is eternal. Daniel prophesied that the Messiah's kingdom would be everlasting: Daniel 7:27 "And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’" So Paul and Apostles would have the same understanding that the Messiah's kingdom would be eternal. So when Paul warns in passages such as: Ephesians 5:5 "For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God." Paul and the other apostles are likely referring to the everlasting kingdom of the Messiah that Daniel wrote about. Someone who focuses on the millennial kingdom aspect of the "Kingdom of Christ and God" while ignoring the eternal aspect, is like a Seventh Day Adventist who focuses on physical seventh day of the week and not our true Sabbath rest in Christ which is eternal. The focus should be on the eternal reality and now the finite shadow. So Peter along the same line writes about the "eternal kingdom of God" in his warning and encouragement: 2 Peter 1:10-11 "Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." And another example is we both agree that Jesus is talking about the eternal kingdom of God in John 3:3, so what hermenetic are we adopting to limit Paul's reference to the kingdom of God to a finite 1000 year kingdom but interpret it to be eternal elsewhere? John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Matthew 4:17 (NLT) From then on Jesus began to preach, “Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.” __________________ 1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

04-11-2024, 12:52 PM	#32
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned I also just watched this documentary on the early church by David Bercot who also spoke in the previous video on "Once Saved Always Saved": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzqDV91AFPo He shows that the early church's practice and beliefs on salvation were different from most of the mainstream denominations today including Evangelical, Catholic and Orthodox. His conclusion is that the early Christians believed that they were saved by a loving-faith relationship with Jesus (and not a mechanical one which is practiced by many Catholics) and that believers had to maintain this relationship born out of love until death in order to be saved. __________________ 1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

04-15-2024, 05:37 AM	#33
Raptor Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 414	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned "....Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Matthew 6:10 What kingdom is the Lord praying for and teaching believers to pray it would come? Didn´t God already have His Kingdom, doesn´t the Kingdom of God already exist? Of course it does. The Lord is praying for the Kingdom to be manifested, to come to the earth with it´s fullest expession: the Millenial Kingdom in the coming age, where Christ will rule as King on the earth with all His faithful and victorious believers.

04-16-2024, 01:13 PM	#35
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned These are basically the same warnings: 1 John 3:8 "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil." Galatians 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." __________________ 1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

04-16-2024, 11:19 PM	#36
Raptor Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 414	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned "If we died with Him, we will also live with Him; if we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will also deny us;" 2 Tim. 2:11-12 1: If we died with Him, we will also live with Him. This refers to having believed in the Lord. It is in past tense; we have died with Christ, not literally, but when we believed, we died in Him. To live with Him refers to the resurrection. All believers will be resurrected, it is part of the gift of eternal salvation. 2. if we endure, we will also reign with Him; This refers to living a faithful life all the way to the end. It is in the future; it is conditional, IF you endure you will reign. The opposite is true: if you DO NOT endure, you will NOT REIGN. 3: if we deny Him, He will also deny us This refers to the worst condition when a believer denies the Lord. The Lord will deny that believer, not for loss of eternal salvation, but for discipline during the Kingdom age.

04-20-2024, 05:55 AM	#41
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned Revelation 22 gives us a picture of kingdom exclusion-- an exclusion of the unclean from the eternal kingdom of God in the new heavens and new earth and not the millennial kingdom which passed away along with the old creation. Revelation 22:3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him In contrast to the heavenly city, during the millennial kingdom people still sinned and died (Isaiah 65:20) and had the freedom to reject Jesus in their hearts and rebel against him (Revelation 20:7-9). The millennial kingdom is a demonstration that even when Jesus physically reigns on earth, if man does not turn their hearts towards Him, they are not actually in the kingdom, because God wants to reign in our hearts and not outside of it. Revelations 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.” Here we see the righteous being juxtaposed with the unrighteous. Someone who is truly saved will continue do righteousness and the unsaved will continue to do evil (Romans 6). It is not enough to pay lip service and call Jesus Lord but God must reign in our heart (Matt 7:21-23, Isaiah 29:13, Ezekiel 33:31, Matthew 15:7–9). Revelation 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Finally we come to the ultimate kingdom exclusion verse. Outside the heavenly city where God's throne is located are those who do evil. They can't blame God because scriptures warned us many times that those who practice evil will not inherit the kingdom of God regardless if they profess to be Christians or not. Galatians 6:8 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Now compare Revelation 22:15 with references to the dogs (unclean), sorcerers, sexually immoral, murderer, idolators, and those who practice falsehood with Paul's warnings in the epistles. Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Ephesians 5:3-5 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. https://www.verserain.com/html/warning_verses.html __________________ 1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. Last edited by bearbear; 04-20-2024 at 02:42 PM.

04-21-2024, 09:38 PM	#44
Ohio Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greater Ohio Posts: 13,693	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned A multitude of unrelated verses does not define truth. Going back to the earlier comment, when the Lord said “I never knew you,” we must understand this as “I never approved of your word.” Otherwise then we must make that absurd claim that the Lord is not omniscient. __________________ Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

04-22-2024, 08:24 AM	#48
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned According to early church historian David Bercot, here are the advantages that the early church fathers such as Clement of Rome (mentioned by Paul in Phil 4:3) and Polycarp (disciple of the apostle John) had on us: 1. Learned the gospel from the apostles themselves 2. First-hand witnesses of the practices of the early church 3. Greek was their mother tongue 4. They understood the culture, setting and politics 5. What they believed had strong scriptural support If the millennial exclusion doctrine was true, why was it never mentioned or expounded on by the early church fathers? The millennial kingdom is not mentioned in the New Testament until the book of Revelation written by the Apostle John, yet his disciple Polycarp never wrote about a doctrine like millenial exclusion and neither did Paul, Peter or the other NT writers. Instead of this doctrine the early church Fathers confirmed scripture by teaching that one had to maintain a loving-faith relationship with Jesus until the end in order to be saved -- (or what the Apostle John would interpret as "evidence" of salvation). Is there something the exclusive Brethren saw 1800 years later or "recovered" that the Apostles and early church fathers somehow missed? Or could this be a false doctrine among many that Paul warned would show up? 2 Timothy 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions Acts 20:29-30 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzqDV91AFPo __________________ 1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

04-23-2024, 02:00 PM	#53
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,824	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned Just a quick addendum to my previous post - If it did nothing else, our Local Church experience should have taught us to always be soberly and carefully considering the practical implications and eventual consequences of any doctrine, teaching or practice. Of course this falls under the "hindsight is 20/20" category, but I guess this is all that is left for us former LC members to do at this point. This being said, what were the practical implications and eventual consequence of this Kingdom Exclusion teaching in the Local Church of Witness Lee? Did it cause those who imbibed it to love the Lord their God, love their families, love and serve their neighbors and to become a profitable servant for the sake of the gospel and God's Kingdom? Did we become disciples, servants and promoters of the Person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ, or did we become a fan and promoter of the person and work of a mere man and his so-called "Ministry of the Age"? For your consideration I would present to you one Minoru Chen, who proudly proclaimed that he was "full of Witness Lee's spirit". There is a short video of this out there but I can't seem to find it at this time. - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

04-25-2024, 07:42 AM	#57
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness he spoke scripture to him and Jesus in turn quoted scripture back. Jesus used the sword of the Spirit to fight Satan and used scripture to interpret scripture. A lot of scripture is already commentary on other scripture and it happens to be canonical. Knowing this let's revisit Luke 12:46. Luke 12:46 (NIV) The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers (apiston). Millennial exclusionists will insist that this is referring to 1000 years of outer darkness but a plain reading will imply that the servant who became disobedient ends up where the other "apiston" (those without faith) are which is the lake of fire (Rev 21:8). To settle the debate, are there other passages of scripture that could provide commentary on this? Was the servant who became disobedient a fake believer hiding among true believers? Millennial exclusionists will mostly agree that the parable of the tares and wheat in Matthew 13 refers to the saved and the unsaved because the tares are the seed of Satan and their final judgment is in the lake of fire, the fiery furnace. Lets take a look at how Jesus explains this parable: Matthew 13:40-42 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Notice Jesus says the angels will "gather out of his kingdom". These weeds were masquerading as members of his kingdom so well that Jesus implies it will be hard to tell them apart in Matthew 13:29 but Jesus says God will eventually remove and sort them out. Could these weeds masquerading as wheat be like the disobedient servants? If they were atheists and adherents of other religions who want nothing to do with Jesus, they would be easy to tell apart and wouldn't profess to be in God's kingdom. Curiously Jesus uses this imagery again in the parable of the fishermen: Matthew 13:47-50 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Notice that the wicked are separated "from the righteous" again. The bad fish were hiding among the good fish and had to be removed from among them. Jesus spoke in parables but Paul was more direct in 2 Cor 11:13-15 "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds." Satan's servants also "disguise themselves as servants of righteousness". If this is the case, man who is a judge of outward appearances (1 Sam 16:7) would likely be deceived regarding who is a true and false believer. Yet Paul suggests there is a way you can guess based on their "deeds". So the true test of a real or false Christian is based on the evidence of "their deeds". Paul repeats this again in Titus 1:16 "They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work." Paul is simply paraphrasing Jesus' teachings on "you shall know them by their fruit". Matthew 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Here it's not the fruit that is burned, but the tree. This is the context leading up to Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" Which other posters insist is referring to millennial exclusion, yet the context of Jesus teaching in Matthew 7 is centered on eternity. Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Millennial exclusionists will likely agree this other warning in Matthew 7 on the broad road leading to destruction refers to hell. Yet they will selectively jump through mental gymnastics to explain the other warnings as being temporary in nature. Reading the bible with this view becomes a confusing exercise where reliance on non-canonical commentary thereby becomes a necessity. __________________ 1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. Last edited by bearbear; 04-25-2024 at 02:19 PM.

05-01-2024, 03:15 AM	#62
Raptor Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 414	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned "And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery —just as I have received authority from My Father. And I will give him the morning star." Revelation 2:26-28. 1. written to believers 2. conditional statement 3. IF overcome = authority to rule 4. therefore if NOT overvome = no authority to rule Don´t add to the Bible or be influeneced by erroneious teachings. Eternal salvation is a free gift and cannot be lost; ruling in the Kingdom is earned and conditional.

05-01-2024, 04:25 AM	#63
Unregistered Guy Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned 1 John 5:1-5 1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. Romans 8:31-39 31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors (overcomers) through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. **Moderator Note. In the future, please consider actually posting some sort of commentary or reaction to what is being posted. Just posting verses without commenting does not add to the discussion. ** -

05-23-2024, 08:42 AM	#70
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Eternal Salvation Is Free; Ruling With Christ Is Earned ChatGPT-4o on millennial and kingdom exclusion Q: Where did the doctrine of millennial or kingdom exclusion where the warnings in the New Testament about being excluded from the kingdom refers to the millennial kingdom of Christ after his return and not the eternal kingdom of Christ originate from? The doctrine of millennial or kingdom exclusion is a relatively niche and debated topic within Christian eschatology. This view interprets certain New Testament warnings about being excluded from the kingdom as referring specifically to the millennial kingdom of Christ, a 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth after his return, rather than the eternal kingdom of God. Here's a brief overview of its origins and development: 19th Century Roots: The concept gained some attention in the 19th century, particularly among certain dispensationalist circles. Dispensationalism is a theological framework that emphasizes the division of history into distinct periods or "dispensations," each marked by different ways God interacts with humanity. Some dispensationalists began to interpret certain biblical warnings about the kingdom as referring to a temporary exclusion from the millennial kingdom rather than eternal damnation. Key Proponents: One of the early proponents of this view was Robert Govett (1813-1901), an English pastor and theologian. Govett's writings on the subject laid a foundation for others who would later develop and promote the doctrine of millennial exclusion. He argued that certain unfaithful Christians would be excluded from reigning with Christ during the millennium but would still be saved eternally. 20th Century Developments: The doctrine was further developed in the 20th century by authors such as Watchman Nee and others within the Plymouth Brethren and other dispensationalist groups. They emphasized the idea that the millennial kingdom would be a reward for faithful Christians, while unfaithful Christians would face temporary exclusion and loss of rewards during this period. Scriptural Basis: Proponents of millennial exclusion often cite passages such as Matthew 25:14-30 (the Parable of the Talents), 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, and Hebrews 12:14-17. They argue that these passages warn of loss of rewards and exclusion from the millennial reign for unfaithfulness, but not of eternal separation from God. Criticism and Controversy: The doctrine is not widely accepted and has faced significant criticism from many within mainstream Christianity. Critics argue that it creates a two-tiered system of salvation and rewards that is not clearly supported by Scripture. They also contend that it undermines the assurance of salvation and the unity of the body of Christ. Overall, the doctrine of millennial exclusion remains a controversial and debated topic within certain eschatological frameworks. Its origins can be traced back to 19th-century dispensationalist interpretations and have been further developed by subsequent theologians and authors. Q: Did the early church fathers teach anything like this? The early church fathers did not explicitly teach the doctrine of millennial or kingdom exclusion as it is understood in some modern dispensationalist circles. However, they did have diverse views on the millennium and the kingdom of God. Here are some key points regarding their teachings: Millennial Views: Several early church fathers held to a form of premillennialism (chiliasm), which is the belief in a literal 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth following his return. Notable proponents of this view included Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian. They believed in a future earthly kingdom where Christ would reign with his saints. Eternal Kingdom: The early church fathers also affirmed the belief in the eternal kingdom of God, where the final state of the redeemed would be eternal life with God in the new heavens and new earth. This belief is reflected in the writings of fathers such as Augustine, who later developed an amillennial perspective, seeing the millennium as symbolic of the church age. Exclusion and Rewards: While the early church fathers did discuss the concepts of rewards and punishment, their focus was primarily on eternal salvation and damnation rather than a temporary exclusion from a millennial kingdom. They emphasized the need for holiness and faithfulness, warning against apostasy and unrepentant sin. Warnings in Scripture: The warnings in the New Testament about being excluded from the kingdom of God were generally interpreted by early church fathers as referring to eternal exclusion rather than a temporary state during the millennium. They urged believers to live righteously to inherit the eternal kingdom. For example: Irenaeus: In his work "Against Heresies," Irenaeus discussed the resurrection and the kingdom, emphasizing the eternal rewards for the righteous and the eternal punishment for the wicked. Justin Martyr: In his "Dialogue with Trypho," Justin Martyr spoke of a future resurrection and kingdom, but he did not elaborate on a temporary exclusion from the millennial kingdom for unfaithful believers. Augustine: In his later works, Augustine developed an amillennial view, interpreting the millennium as symbolic and focusing on the eternal state of believers rather than a distinct millennial reign with temporary exclusions. In summary, the early church fathers did not teach the specific doctrine of millennial exclusion as understood in some modern dispensationalist views. Their teachings on the kingdom of God primarily focused on eternal salvation and damnation, with varied interpretations of the millennium and the nature of Christ's reign. Q: Since the early church fathers were disciples or indirect disciples of the Apostles, is it reasonable to assume that the Apostles themselves did not hold to millennial or kingdom exclusion? Given that the early church fathers were direct disciples or indirect disciples of the Apostles and did not explicitly teach the doctrine of millennial or kingdom exclusion, it is reasonable to infer that the Apostles themselves likely did not hold to this specific view. Here are a few points to consider: Continuity of Teaching: The early church fathers often sought to preserve and faithfully transmit the teachings they received from the Apostles. If the doctrine of millennial exclusion had been a significant part of apostolic teaching, it is likely that it would have been reflected in the writings and teachings of these early church fathers. The absence of such teachings in their writings suggests that it was not a doctrine emphasized by the Apostles. Scriptural Interpretation: The Apostles' writings in the New Testament focus on the assurance of salvation, the need for perseverance in faith, and the final judgment. Key passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, Hebrews 12:14-17, and the Parables of Jesus do contain warnings and exhortations, but they are generally understood by the early church as addressing eternal consequences rather than a temporary exclusion from a millennial kingdom. Eschatological Views: The early church fathers, including those with premillennial views, did not delineate a specific period of millennial exclusion for unfaithful believers. Instead, they emphasized the hope of resurrection and eternal life for the faithful and eternal separation from God for the unfaithful. This focus aligns with the broader eschatological themes found in the New Testament. Lack of Historical Evidence: There is no substantial historical evidence from the early Christian writings or traditions to support the idea that the Apostles taught a doctrine of millennial exclusion. The development of this doctrine appears to be a later theological construct rather than a direct continuation of apostolic teaching. In conclusion, based on the teachings of the early church fathers and the absence of evidence for millennial exclusion in their writings, it is reasonable to assume that the Apostles themselves did not hold to this specific view. The early Christian focus on eternal consequences rather than temporary exclusion aligns with the broader New Testament message and the teachings preserved by the early church fathers. __________________ 1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. Last edited by bearbear; 05-23-2024 at 01:18 PM.