Titus Chu spin off-help?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Hi, Ohio. I would like to respond obliquely, if you’ll permit. You may read into my response however you wish. As a Hoosier I have had a complicated relationship with a legendary figure here (who originally came from your territory, Ohio), one Bobby Knight. Actually, I have no relationship with Knight since I didn’t personally know him but I’m a big college hoops fan, I coached high school sports in the state (never basketball but I rubbed shoulders constantly with b-ball coaches), and it’s hard not to have a “complicated relationship” under those circumstances.

Early on I hated the guy but actually it was more the worship of him I despised. Indiana basketball coaches in the 70s and 80s revered him to a level that was near idol worship. “Defense! Discipline!” was the mantra, that and his “motion” offense. Me being a pretty undisciplined person by nature and a lover of offense over defense, it wasn’t hard to dislike the guy. Further, as the 90s rolled into play and speed and athleticism began to trump all in college hoops, Bobby dug in deeper, refusing to change with the times. His record began to decline.

Well, over the years I changed my views of him. Again, it was for a variety of reasons. But one factor really stood out for me: Bobby Knight hearkened back to a time when certain virtues like discipline and self-sacrifice were uplifted. The fact that he personally failed many of his own virtue values in many ways does not take away from him uplifting them. I uplift the virtues of Christ, most of which I fail daily.

When Coach Knight passed this year, I shed tears. Could I have survived playing for him? Probably not. But with his passing a world, partly real, partly mere nostalgia, passed with him. Indiana is a state known for its love of basketball and its achievements in that arena but if you check the banners hanging at Assembly Hall in Bloomington the most recent one is dated 1987.

Too long a response, I know. And probably too oblique. But perhaps you will read something into it that explains my view of our dear brother TC.

I get it. I understand. Knight was a legend in Hoosier Nation. So were Woody Hayes and Joe Paterno.

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I get it. I understand. Knight was a legend in Hoosier Nation. So were Woody Hayes and Joe Paterno.

So we talk in code. And I broke your code as you (somewhat ) did mine. All three men had great strengths and great weaknesses though Paterno was, imho, undone by subordinates.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

So we talk in code. And I broke your code as you (somewhat ) did mine. All three men had great strengths and great weaknesses though Paterno was, imho, undone by subordinates.

That’s what I’m talking about. TC always gave us the impression that WL’s ministry burden was “undone by subordinates.” He held WL in the highest reverence, yet nearly despised all the Blendeds, eg “those 5 little boys.” Paterno did nothing wrong himself except for “covering the brother.” Sounds like nothing more than sordid LC behavior, “covered up” by others.

Like your early “contempt” for Knight, I am convinced that is the safest approach. In a world of idolatry, even among Christians, being overly skeptical of exalting our leaders is healthy. The Bible holds them to higher standards, and so should we. In the Recovery, WL and WN and TC have long been canonized into sainthood. Don’t you see the danger in that? The danger in bestowing such honors is too great to overcome.

You mentioned a story from 1982. I have another one from Columbus about that time. TC was invited, and a gifted brother from Willoughby showed up to the meeting. The brother BR had stopped meeting for awhile, and had grown a beard. Out of the blue, TC said that if a brother grows a beard, then it shows that his heart is cold towards the Lord. The comment was startling and inappropriate. Why shame a brother like that in a meeting? It’s not like the brother had a chance to respond. Why not greet him warmly? Pride at large on the bully pulpit!

What then was the lasting message? No spiritual man has a beard. Every brother with a beard has a cold heart towards the Lord. I literally had that pathetic thought in mind for 20 years at least. So judgmental of me! Then one day in the early 00’s I was studying the Plymouth Brethren in order to understand the division we were going thru. I got this book “Chief Men Among the Brethren.” Nearly all the brothers had beards! Imagine that! George Muller, Robert Chapman, etc. all had beards. Finally, I was delivered from that careless judgmental comment spoken 20 years ago from the pulpit. Unfortunately brother BR never returned. Then I also realized it was merely cultural - Chinese can’t grow beards, hence they condemned them.

[SpeakersCorner]

Ohio,

About ten years ago my wife and I visited Oldtown Bethlehem, Pa. and sat in the church Zinzendorf planted there. We paid for the tour. The guide told us that Zinzendorf came on Christmas Eve to see the fine new meeting hall they had built. They sang and were filled with joy. Then the Count led them out of the building and down the cobblestone street to where they first had met at a humble barn, I believe (my memory’s a bit fuzzy here). As they gathered around in the dark December night at the spot where the saints had first met Zinzendorf said, “Christ did not come to high Jerusalem but to lowly Bethlehem. Let us never forget that.” And then he christened the town Bethlehem.

This story touched me deeply. I didn’t think of it at the time but here now, as I continue in this thread, it strikes me that I experienced something similar back in 1982. It has nothing to do with hero worship or exaltation of leaders. Brother TC came to my house on a gravel road, a dusty gravel road, where six people met once a week for the purpose of supporting us, lifting us to something higher than a mere Bible study. It’s amazing to me to realize that we still have a testimony that remains 42 years later.

You and others have pointed out what you believe are TC’s failings many times in these spaces. I am presenting a different view. If you think I’m guilty of exalting him or others such as WL, that’s fine. It matters not to me. It isn’t true, though. If you don’t believe me allow me to introduce you to many brothers who think I’m too critical of everybody and everything. Actually, I don’t need to do the introductions since you know many of them.

No, I don’t exalt anyone but Christ which I do every Domingo (Lord’s Day. The Spanish got it right). But I definitely do give credit to those who have labored to help build the church. And that’s why I told my story.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

All three men had great strengths and great weaknesses though Paterno was, imho, undone by subordinates.

20 some years ago I could not understand why the LC’s, who talk more about the oneness of believers and the cross of Christ than any other Christians, could be on the verge of a major schism. Each one of us, one by one, whether with loved ones or without, were forced to take sides. I eventually decided not to, and so I left due to the conflict.

It was not until I studied Darby and the Plymouth Brethren that I could understand “great men.” How could lowly JNDarby daily visit new believers on long dusty roads every afternoon, and then publicly rebuke and shame notable and fruitful ministers and scholars like BWNewton and George Muller? These conflicts were totally irreconcilable to me. How could ones like Darby have life-altering visits with new believers in the afternoon, and then damage these same believers in the evening by publicly destroying other well-respected ministers?

I first needed to understand “great men.” Their inner drive to be on top can at times supersede all other positive virtue. Jesus addressed this drive repeatedly while on earth, humbling His disciples. With Paul, we only see this power displayed in Antioch with Peter when the truth of the Gospel was at stake. Paul got this message from the Lord. He never used his authority on perceived rivals in the church. Unfortunately, all the LC leaders we have discussed have missed that memo. The most powerful rises to the top, and others must line up behind, waiting for their chance.

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

This story touched me deeply. I didn’t think of it at the time but here now, as I continue in this thread, it strikes me that I experienced something similar back in 1982. It has nothing to do with hero worship or exaltation of leaders. Brother TC came to my house on a gravel road, a dusty gravel road, where six people met once a week for the purpose of supporting us, lifting us to something higher than a mere Bible study. It’s amazing to me to realize that we still have a testimony that remains 42 years later.

You and others have pointed out what you believe are TC’s failings many times in these spaces. I am presenting a different view. If you think I’m guilty of exalting him or others such as WL, that’s fine. It matters not to me. It isn’t true, though. If you don’t believe me allow me to introduce you to many brothers who think I’m too critical of everybody and everything. Actually, I don’t need to do the introductions since you know many of them.

Brother SC, I’m sorry if I gave the impression that you have overly exalted a man. You were the recipient of a blessed “afternoon visit.” Others, however, were victims of those “evening meetings,” where brothers got beat down into submission. With most “great men” in the Recovery the conflict here is never recognized. Kind, brotherly shepherding in the afternoon easily becomes public “ice-baths” in the evening.

Jesus said these things ought not to be. No man on earth, especially in His church, should ever be on top. That system of thought, whether Papal or MOTA. is not of God. I’m thankful you could reject that thought and stay. I had to leave in order to reject it.

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother SC, I’m sorry if I gave the impression that you have overly exalted a man. You were the recipient of a blessed “afternoon visit.” Others, however, were victims of those “evening meetings,” where brothers got beat down into submission.

No need for apology at all. Your “blessed afternoons” vs. “evening beatdowns” displays insight. I didn’t know that about Darby. Believe it or not, I have been the recipient of a few public beatdowns though, I must say, none like some others I witnessed. I personally saw that whole method of leadership as counterproductive to the max. A lot of it was performative, I thought. A lot was simply Chinese culture brought to the West which I hate. Whatever. I had some of the same basic criticisms of Bobby Knight, who I used as a proxy to make points here.

I brought up David (as in King David) in a post above because he too did a lot of stuff that was indefensible. This forum, though ostensibly here to bring conversation between those in with those out of the LC, is mainly here just to point out the flaws. The Bible certainly points out David’s flaws but it also tells us that David was a “man after God’s heart” and that God will establish His ultimate throne on the regal line David founded.

[SpeakersCorner]

Aron,

I at first didn’t read your post because it looked long and boring. But I just now did read it and, while long, it wasn’t boring. I don’t disagree with everything you wrote. One comment stuck out to me: “Yes, TC (and WL and WN) could be ‘tender, nursing mothers’ and you saw that. But that was to get you in the Network.”

You’re calling them hypocrites and evil workers. That’s the only way I can read that. You’re also, by implication, implying I’m a dupe for falling for their Absolomian kisses. Well, I’m not a sap, a dupe, a rube, a dope and I would think that just by reading my posts here you would recognize that. The fact that you can’t make that connection makes me very distrustful of any analysis you bring to the discussion. Further, citing a book with the word “Intellectual” in the title as some kind of self-validation is amusing to me.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

No need for apology at all. Your “blessed afternoons” vs. “evening beatdowns” displays insight. I didn’t know that about Darby. Believe it or not, I have been the recipient of a few public beatdowns though, I must say, none like some others I witnessed. I personally saw that whole method of leadership as counterproductive to the max. A lot of it was performative, I thought. A lot was simply Chinese culture brought to the West which I hate. Whatever. I had some of the same basic criticisms of Bobby Knight, who I used as a proxy to make points here.

I brought up David (as in King David) in a post above because he too did a lot of stuff that was indefensible. This forum, though ostensibly here to bring conversation between those in with those out of the LC, is mainly here just to point out the flaws. The Bible certainly points out David’s flaws but it also tells us that David was a “man after God’s heart” and that God will establish His ultimate throne on the regal line David founded.

Brother SpeakersCorner, as you may well remember, we had often stood side-by-side defending the valuable "pearls" we have received in the Recovery. I'll never forget the 2by4 you threw me once when my knees got a little wobbly defending the faith.

I would like to address these "beat-downs" according to the scripture, adding that I am in no way categorically opposed to them. Rather the question is simple: What is the goal and the motive behind the "beat-down?" There are two types:

(1) Paul's instruction to Timothy (I Tim 5.17-21) provides incentive. "Beat-downs" are used exclusively for leaders who sin. Not arbitrarily, but in cases where there are witnesses, and necessarily due process. The goal is to warn the church, limited to those who are affected, so that all might be in fear. This must also be done without prejudice against one who may be disliked, and without partiality towards one who may be favored.

(2) Peter warns us not to "lord it over" others, (I Pet 5.3), which should match John's mention of the Nicolaitans, or "conquer the laity," (Rev 2.6) and his rebuke of Diotrephes, who loved to be first. (3 Jn 9-11) These admonitions correspond with Jesus' own warnings about wanting to be great, (eg Matt 20.20-28) and Paul's warning with tears of those who will "rise up from within drawing the disciples after them." (Acts 20.30)

This latter type of public "beat-down" has no basis in scripture, and merely serves to establish hierarchy in the church, targeting one's perceived rivals. Unfortunately the Recovery was consumed with the latter, and the former was rarely employed especially when sorely needed. Supposedly, sister M E Barber "recovered" this practice, which has dominated LC culture ever since.

Concerning King David, yes, he had notable failures now known by all men. God was faithful via Nathan the Prophet to apply a serious "beat-down" of the first type. I am not aware of David using the second type.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

This forum, though ostensibly here to bring conversation between those in with those out of the LC, is mainly here just to point out the flaws. The Bible certainly points out David’s flaws but it also tells us that David was a “man after God’s heart” and that God will establish His ultimate throne on the regal line David founded.

Long time no see SpeakersCorner. I see you still are riding that one-trick pony as well as ever! - My friend, I really think you need to catch up on your church history, especially recent church history. We are in the 21st century now, and things have changed. False teachers are being called out for their false teachings. Abusers are being called out for their abuses. And more and more, thanks in part to the Internet and forums such as this, former members of cultic groups like the Local Church of Witness Lee are doing the calling out, and they cannot be so easily silenced and cancelled by a simple proclamation of the Grand Poohbah(s) in Anaheim or Cleveland.

I'm not really sure where you are going with this "The Bible certainly points out David’s flaws but it also tells us that David was a “man after God’s heart" illustration, but it smacks heavily of the pathetic defenses of Witness Lee by his minion followers over the years. I know it when I see it, because I used to be one of the minions for 20+ years. And I hate to be the one to tell you, but this all applies to Titus Chu as well. You see, Titus not only picked up on Lee's false teachings (and ran with them quite well), he also picked up on his abusive ways. So he is getting called out just like his mentor and apostle Witness.

God is not mocked. My crude, but contemporary, interpretation is this: "God will no longer suffer fools gladly". And neither should those who want to see truth and integrity restored in the house of God. Yes, Peter was right - "For it is time for the judgment to begin with the household of God" (1 Pet 4:17) And this judgement is a long time in coming for the Local Church of Witness Lee, and for any of the spinoff sects such as the one established by Titus Chu.
-

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I get it. I understand. Knight was a legend in Hoosier Nation. So were Woody Hayes and Joe Paterno.

You should add to your list of Bobby, Woody, and Joe … David. Amirite?