What is God's Economy?

[Ohio]

Many, way too many, who attended LC meetings or grew up in that system DID call mindlessly, repetitively, even chanting, without any semblance of reality, rather merely vain repetition, taking His name in vain as we are commanded not to in the 3rd Commandment. This was most unfortunate, but I, and you, cannot deny that it really happened. I talked about this in that lengthy ITERO Midwest quarantine meeting in Whistler, BC.

This is the unavoidable consequence of that public practice. Calling on the Name of our dear Lord should never have become some cheap and commonplace, very PUBLIC, very programmed, very coerced, very loud and repetitive, yet distorted, mechanical practice. I cannot remember any exhortation in scripture for this PUBLIC display commonly seen in LC meetings. On the contrary, what is seen in scripture and referred to as “calling on the Lord,” could only be described as needy, private, genuine, unscripted, and personal prayer from the believer to the Lord.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many, way too many, who attended LC meetings or grew up in that system DID call mindlessly, repetitively...

There are plenty of verses in the Bible where calling on the Lord publicly happened. I think you're chasing after windmills here sir

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Jay

There are plenty of verses in the Bible where calling on the Lord publicly happened…..

Maybe you should read Ohio’s post again. He didn’t say there were no verses.

Here’s a good one…a command.
Exodus 20:7
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Nell

Maybe you should read Ohio’s post again. He didn’t say there were no verses. Here’s a good one…a command.
Exodus 20:7
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Why would calling on the name of the Lord to contact him be in vain?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Jay

Why would calling on the name of the Lord to contact him be in vain?

Honestly I love being connected to the Lord in my spirit. It's like having continuous access to the well of life. If I don't turn to my spirit by opening up deep within, which is accompanied by calling on his name, then I feel dry and dead. I feel disconnected. I like to stay plugged into God idk about anyone else

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Jay

Honestly I love being connected to the Lord in my spirit. It's like having continuous access to the well of life. If I don't turn to my spirit by opening up deep within, which is accompanied by calling on his name, then I feel dry and dead. I feel disconnected. I like to stay plugged into God idk about anyone else

Good for you, and thank you for acknowledging that you don't know about anyone else.

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Jay

Why would calling on the name of the Lord to contact him be in vain?

I think Ohio was clear on this. Read it again.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many, way too many, who attended LC meetings or grew up in that system DID call mindlessly, repetitively, even chanting, without any semblance of reality, rather merely vain repetition, taking His name in vain as we are commanded not to in the 3rd Commandment. This was most unfortunate, but I, and you, cannot deny that it really happened. I talked about this in that lengthy ITERO Midwest quarantine meeting in Whistler, BC.

This is the unavoidable consequence of that public practice. Calling on the Name of our dear Lord should never have become some cheap and commonplace, very PUBLIC, very programmed, very coerced, very loud and repetitive, yet distorted, mechanical practice. I cannot remember any exhortation in scripture for this PUBLIC display commonly seen in LC meetings. On the contrary, what is seen in scripture and referred to as “calling on the Lord,” could only be described as needy, private, genuine, unscripted, and personal prayer from the believer to the Lord.

Nell

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many, way too many, who attended LC meetings or grew up in that system DID call mindlessly, repetitively, even chanting, without any semblance of reality, rather merely vain repetition, taking His name in vain as we are commanded not to in the 3rd Commandment.

As I was told and taught in my early years of LC, calling on the Lord as according to Lee has prerequisites, which was that I needed to get out of my mind. It’s kind like a hand and a glove, one cannot happen without the other.

If you question the practice, you are in your natural state, and can’t understand spiritual matters. I was also told that unless I pray the way that I did before, as in normal human speaking without any repetitions of Lords name, or allowing others to interrupt and insert amens or some sort of approval, my prayer is very individualistic and soulish without touching God. Go figure where these seers discovered such things, all I know now it’s not anywhere in the Bible.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Onlooker

As I was told and taught in my early years of LC, calling on the Lord as according to Lee has prerequisites....

Onlooker, I think everyone is enjoying your helpful and thoughtful posts. Could you please take a minute and register for membership by shooting an email to Reg4LCD@Gmail.Com - I'm certain that the UserName "Onlooker" is available!
-

[ThankfulForever777]

Originally Posted by Onlooker

I was also told that unless I pray the way that I did before, as in normal human speaking without any repetitions of Lords name, or allowing others to interrupt and insert amens or some sort of approval, my prayer is very individualistic and soulish without touching God. Go figure where these seers discovered such things, all I know now it’s not anywhere in the Bible.

On a side note, it’s a big red flag to me that the saints in LC rarely direct their prayers to the Father, except for a brief period following the breaking of bread. I rarely heard that saints in LC would address their prayers to the Father before meals, during home meetings, conferences, etc. This deviation from New Testament practice raises some concerns. Addressing the Father in prayer should be a natural and foundational aspect of Christian prayer, yet it seems to be regarded as superficial or overly religious within the LC. This reluctance to pray to the Father directly contradicts Jesus' own instructions to approach God the Father through him.

Furthermore, there is a notable avoidance of the phrase "I pray in the name of Jesus," which is viewed as formal or religious despite its biblical basis. Jesus himself instructed his disciples to pray in his name, indicating its importance in prayer.

Additionally, there seems to be a lack of emphasis on the Holy Spirit within the LC. Instead of referring to the Holy Spirit directly, terms like "Life-giving Spirit" or "Seven-fold Spirit" are often used.

It's apparent to me that the presentation of the whole Trinity—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—within the LC deviates from the Bible. I wonder if anyone else noticed this or have any further thoughts?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

On a side note, it’s a big red flag to me that the saints in LC rarely direct their prayers to the Father...

Now that you point it out, it becomes apparent. Of note also is a heavy emphasis on the human spirit which would seem to direct attention away from God and all he is, to man. That is, man "being somewhere" ("in his spirit") to have a walk with God. Your walk seems to rely on phrases like "exercise your spirit" (with a fist pump or two which is interpreted as "enjoyment") or you are falling short of the Lee's interpretation of scriptures.

Nell

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

It's apparent to me that the presentation of the whole Trinity—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—within the LC deviates from the Bible. I wonder if anyone else noticed this or have any further thoughts?

I think that many of us who have been "out" of the LC for more than just a year or two understand this dynamic quite well. I believe that it is almost a universal thing - that when a Christian group or movement deviates from the orthodox teaching/doctrine/understanding of the Trinity (That God has revealed himself as one Being, and within this one Being there are three Persons who share their divinity, divine nature, character and attributes within the Godhead) these groups also become dangerously aberrant in other teachings and practices as well. And it is also nearly universal that these groups/movements move further and further away from orthodoxy as time goes on. To be sure, we see this in the current iteration of Local Church of Witness Lee movement.
-

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many, way too many, who attended LC meetings or grew up in that system DID call mindlessly, repetitively, even chanting, without any semblance of reality...

Nothing wrong with the practice calling on the Lord, It should not be a mechanical exercise. It should not be a competition display of who can do it the loudest.
If the intent of calling on the Lord is to set our mind on our spirit, that can be done quietly as well. In my post-LSM/LC church experience those that choose do so take time prior to the services to set their minds on their spirit.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

Nothing wrong with the practice calling on the Lord, It should not be a mechanical exercise. It should not be a competition display of who can do it the loudest.
If the intent of calling on the Lord is to set our mind on our spirit, that can be done quietly as well. In my post-LSM/LC church experience those that choose do so take time prior to the services to set their minds on their spirit.

Even this so-called justification to “get into your spirit” or to “set your mind on your spirit” is seriously wanting when some self-titled “Blended” instructs the ITERO attendants at Whistler Resort to “all stand and call on the Lord 5 times.” What was that? I’m serious here. What was that?

That was a pathetic attempt to justify unrighteousness. That was a whitewashing of pathetic power politics. That was a public lynching of a perceived rival, perhaps the lone truth-teller. That was a form of godliness while denying its power. Paul told Timothy (2 T 3.5) to avoid such people.

Calling on the name of our dear Lord is a precious gift of faith for every true lover of God. From the dawn of mankind. I can imagine every true martyr of the Hebrews 11 kind expired with His name on their lips, their final words on planet earth. Was this not “worshiping in spirit and in truth?” Does not our heavenly Father demand such worship? (Jn 4.24)

But what I saw watching that TC Quarantine debacle was akin to a “seventh inning stretch.” That charade dragged on for h-o-u-r-s. Half the attendants were half asleep. So the Blended on stage makes an urgent announcement, “let’s all stand up and call … 5 times.” Except there was no “Lord” there. One day He may tell them, “I never knew you.” (Mt 7.23)

[Nell]

In the "early days" there was a road trip to another locality. Two young single sisters and one single brother were assigned to my car.

The single brother began screaming at the Lord as soon as we pulled out of the parking lot. He was not only annoying and obnoxious but a distraction to my driving. The SB was alone in his screaming. We three sisters were in an eye-roll at this display of .... whatever that was.

When there was a pause in the action I commented:

"OK. Now that you are in your spirit, could you please lower the volume?" He finally gave it a rest. He may have been trying to impress us with his spirituality. We were all very impressed.

Nell

[Ohio]

A brother I once knew told me about his church life in those “early days” out in the Bay Area of NoCal how they would scream to the Lord in order to get into their spirit. He mentioned how one time he even climbed into a dumpster to “call on the Lord.” Apparently it was the fleeting desire to reenact that initial high he once enjoyed. I understood that feeling. I used to get these great “head rushes” in those first meetings I went to. They were great. Better than a concert or sporting event. And completely drug-free. This was like heaven on earth. I smiled ear to ear. Joy ineffable and full of glory.

But like all drug attics, there is no high as good as those first ones. Sadly our body can get addicted to those feelings of euphoria. Sometimes the joy of the Spirit visits us in like manner. Kind of like the overwhelming feelings that filled the disciples in the upper room as aron recently mentioned. None of these wonderful spiritual feelings is wrong, far from it, but unfortunately they can establish a wrong standard for our faith. These feelings are like milk from a nursing mother. Good for a season of time, yes, but deadly if demanded life-long. I once met with some dear Christians whose greatest hope was to relive the experience of Pentecost. ”Revival!” they loved to say.

Such as our human life, so our spiritual life. We need solid food in order to mature, and the Bible speaks of such matters as faithfulness, perseverance in prayer, obedience and work of faith, suffering for righteousness sake, the labor of love in loving our enemies, etc. as descriptions of solid food for healthy growth. Many times when I finally surrendered and obeyed the Lord’s command, I felt nothing at all. Perhaps only shame that I was so stubborn for acting so slowly. Yet that is the obedience of faith that God demands of us. Recently I had to apologize to my wife. It was all so unreasonable I thought. Like I said, “obedience.” Real and mature faith is not in feelings.

Back to the discussion about “calling on the Lord” in order to carry out “God’s Economy.” We cannot yank verses out of scripture to justify what other verses condemn. I see this often on this forum. How sad that many LC members and ex-members are just unable to transition from the feelings of screaming at God unto maturity. Sadly the brother I mentioned could not, and ended his life.

[aron]

There's been some consensus here, on what is not God's economy. It's not calling on the Lord, which is seen in the same vein as confessing Jesus as Lord. It's an instrumental sign of faith. at it's initiation: the charge to -- Confess, repent, believe, call, be baptized, be saved -- are all put apace in the conversion process. Calling is neither seen nor recommended anywhere as a continual process of "absorbing God" or any such, certainly not seen as God's economy.

Pray-reading is simply made-up. Paul never uses the phrase, nor does any other.

But what is God's economy? Paul, writing Timothy, encourages teachings that result in God's economy. Because he never defines it, we must take a broad view of Paul. In the beginning, I see the Jerusalem cohort sending him off, reminding him to "only remember the poor", which he claims to be eager to do. And at the end, he returns to Jerusalem with "alms for my nation".

In between, are numerous written and oral demonstrations in numerous forms, for the collection for the poor of Jerusalem. I therefore see his "God's economy" as his outworking of the Jesus charge: "Give to those who cannot repay you, and your reward in heaven will be great." Paul is bringing this teaching to the Nations.

I believe that one of Paul's few direct quotes his Master Jesus is this: "It is better to give, than to receive". Jesus also had said, "Give, and it will be given to you", and this theme of sharing with one another is nearly continual.

Then in Paul's epistles and the Acts there is the continual care for the ones who lack. Those who have, share with those who don't. Those who gather much, share with those who lack. Salvation is a gift of God, and giving is the sign, the "proof" of the love of God manifesting in humanity: "Therefore show these men the proof of your love and the reason for our pride in you, so that the churches can see it." (2 Cor 8:24)

If there's a more pervasive theme in Paul's acts and his letters, I don't see him teaching it. Certainly its not pray-reading, which doesn't seem to even exist...Paul was a Jewish Pharisee (Acts 23:6) who was appointed apostle to the nations (Gal 1:16; 2:7,8; Rom 1:5). And his message was that Christ's substitutionary death for us, opened up the path of eternal life, and that on this path, we should allow the love of God in Christ Jesus which brought us here, to flow out through us to our fellows. This was an instrumental part of Paul's gospel message, woven throughout every epistle to every church.

"For you are recognizing [more clearly] the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ (His astonishing kindness, His gracious generosity, His undeserved favor and spiritual blessing) in that though he was [so very] rich yet for your sake he became [so very] poor in order that by his poverty you might become rich (abundantly supplied)." 2 Cor 8:9 (AMP) And Paul wanted Timothy to stay behind in Ephesus and make sure this message got taught, so that God's economy would come forth there, as well.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I can't remember any exhortation in scripture for this PUBLIC display commonly seen in LC meetings. On the contrary, what is seen in scripture and referred to as “calling on the Lord,” could only be described as needy, private, genuine, unscripted, and personal prayer from the believer to the Lord.

There is one very public and very tumultuous meeting which Christian groups have tried consciously or unconsciously to emulate and follow, ever since. That was the gathering in the large upper room on Pentecost.

But nowhere in the NT is that prescribed as the model Christian meeting. At some point, when we whip ourselves into a frenzy, Paul says this will stumble visitors, as we can attest in the LC. Immature ones will lay hands quickly and with unmerited enthusiasm. But Paul seems to address this tendency toward unmerited enthusiasm and unbalance in his word to the Corinthians, summing up that God is not a God of disorder but of peace. (I Cor 14 v. 33).