Merged Thread: Ron Kangas

[Trapped]

They actually try to defend the way Ron spoke about his wife this past summer.

Sorry co-worker bros, no matter how you cut it, and no matter how much surrounding context you try to "un-wrench" from the snippets, Ron's speaking is still gross.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

They actually try to defend the way Ron spoke about his wife this past summer.

Sorry co-worker bros, no matter how you cut it, and no matter how much surrounding context you try to "un-wrench" from the snippets, Ron's speaking is still gross.

But who taught him to be so arrogantly abusive on the podium?

And how many are now learning all the wrong things from him?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But who taught him to be so arrogantly abusive on the podium?

Who taught Ron K to speak this way? This kind of evil speaking is of the devil himself.

And how many are now learning all the wrong things from him?

Everyone. Everyone who chooses to believe and practice such demonic evil.

Eph. 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
...
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

I don’t see how any sober minded man can, from the podium, speak such evil about approximately half of the body of Christ and yet hold himself up as a minister of truth.

Isaiah 5:20 “Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil; that put darkness for light and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!”

Lord help and forgive us all.
Nell

[UntoHim]

Ron Kangas: "I am the Co-Worker! My wife is nothing! To recognize her as an equal child of God and human being would be to put her on the throne and crown her! There is no room on my royal throne for my spouse! There is only room for me, the exalted Blended Co-Worker! For any sister to have an opinion about anything, much less dare to speak the truth regarding any kind of abuse against her is in rebellion against God's deputy authority, and they are subject to having the earth open up and swallow them alive!"
(Highly expanded paraphrase by UntoHim, and does not necessarily reflect the attitudes or opinions of any other forum member)
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[Curious]

They have been trying to lead the whole body of christ from the front now for how many years? Completely disconnected, they are oblivious to how ridiculous their attitudes on some of these topics are. No self-respecting minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ in any respectable setting would be foolish enough to dream of spouting such words and expect to be taken seriously. It's beyond the pale and very embarrassing.... for them.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Trapped

They actually try to defend the way Ron spoke about his wife this past summer.

Sorry co-worker bros, no matter how you cut it, and no matter how much surrounding context you try to "un-wrench" from the snippets, Ron's speaking is still gross.

Each time they write another one of these articles, they take the default stance that the LCM can do or say nothing wrong and then proceed to accuse others of deliberately misinterpreting what was spoken.

Too bad for them that the recording of Ron has already made its rounds, and everyone has heard what he said for themselves. Their continuous boldfaced lies are getting really old.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Does anyone have a link to where he spoke this about his wife? It at least where and when? Thanks.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ron Kangas: "I am the Co-Worker! My wife is nothing! To recognize her as an equal child of God and human being would be to put her on the throne and crown her! There is no room on my royal throne for my spouse! There is only room for me, the exalted Blended Co-Worker! For any sister to have an opinion about anything, much less dare to speak the truth regarding any kind of abuse against her is in rebellion against God's deputy authority, and they are subject to having the earth open up and swallow them alive!"
(Highly expanded paraphrase by UntoHim, and does not necessarily reflect the attitudes or opinions of any other forum member)
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Since you state that this is a paraphrase, what is the actual thing Kangas said?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Since you state that this is a paraphrase, what is the actual thing Kangas said?

From the article on the LSM site "shepherding words."

I am so thankful I have my companion, my wife, to travel with me wherever I go, but I am the co-worker; I am the one ministering. She is nothing. She is no one. She is just my wife. I will never crown her. I will never exalt her. To do so would be to damage her. (Ron Kangas, The Ministry of the Word 23:7 (July 2019), 229-230)

This would have to be compared with the audio tape to confirm the wording.

[UntoHim]

Hey brothers, why don't we just put a sock in our mouth and ask all the sisters out there what they think of what Ron Kangas spewed out in that meeting? I have a feeling that their expanded paraphrase would be even harsher than mine.

Sisters. Fire away!
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[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

From the article on the LSM site "shepherding words."This would have to be compared with the audio tape to confirm the wording.

I guess Ron Kangas never read past verse 6 of 1 Peter 3. https://biblehub.com/blb/1_peter/3.htm. Selective hearing? I don’t know who he learned that from?

Sorry, I just couldn’t keep that sock in my mouth for a second. Failed the test

[Curious]

Responding to:

ShepherdingWords.com.
Under; ‘Articles’
‘Newly added articles’
‘Twisting Ron Kangas ‘s Words’ posted on Dec 16 2019.

My responses to their 4 main points are quoted here, from their published document. My comment on the rest of their article does not include quotes from their article.

Point 1. ‘Some claim authority for themselves because they are married to a co-worker or an elder. They crown themselves, saying “you are a co-worker now and so am I. We are a team.”’

Implicit in this statement is a worldly concept of authority. ‘She’ is ‘crowning herself’ to share in her husband’s ministry. To be a co-worker or elder, is therefore, to wear a ‘crown? Why?.... No matter the reason, it’s clear, in the LC, co-workers and elders wear crowns because they have authority. Such a status imputes a crown. And men and women should not work together as a team if they are married. If it’s her idea its wrong, even if her husband supports her in it, as further points reveal, its still wrong.

I know a husband and wife who run a Christian ministry together as a team. They both share a heart for the calling of this ministry, their giftings and strengths are complimentary. This is great for their relationship and the ministry they run, to my knowledge. I have never thought of either of them ‘wearing crowns’ and neither have they. Thinking in such terms seems to focus on status and authority in a worldly and not Christ-like way. I wonder why ‘shepherding words’ assumes that a married couple working together as a team is a bad thing, and that only the man can ‘wear the crown’ of authority. All an unnecessary focus on domination and submission.

(Even more ‘horrifying’ to the LC mentality, this ministry has many, many couples, teamed together, as couples in their roles, it’s a norm for them! They would be totally puzzled and perplexed if you suggested anything unchristian, or even fundamentally problematic about it.)

Furthermore, later in the document, RK adds the idea that to be crowned is to be exalted, and to being damaged by being exalted. This gets weirder. It would seem he believes that he can wear a crown and be thereby exalted, without being damaged by it. To exalt a sister in this way, any sister at all, is ‘improper’, but to do so to a brother is not? No reason given, except the arbitrary idea of being ‘proper’, which explains nothing at all.

Point 2 ‘The brother may make the big mistake of fostering this kind of concept in his wife. He may even exalt her, telling others, “Listen to her. She knows how to pray with authority’…. (Why not say ‘effectively’ rather than ‘with authority’? The language used is all about power and control)….. ‘She knows how to pray prayers of spiritual warfare.” In contrast, those who really know how to pray in this way, simply pray in this way. They do not boast or talk about it.’

Its another great sin for a person to state their interest and area of gifting in order to seek a role in the church that fits. To do so is bad in two ways. First it is ‘boasting’ (boasting is a motivation, not the act itself, you can’t judge motivation in this way, unless you are very silly) and second it is to… ‘talk’…..what? so to talk is bad. To communicate relevant information straightforwardly and clearly…this makes no sense, making a sin out of nothing. A good husband values his wife’s giftings and seeks to support her in having an outlet for it. but in the LC that’s a bad thing.

Rather it seems that this idea promotes shame. To be too ashamed to mention you believe God might use your gifting within the work seems noble in the world of the LC. I think this stinks, and produces frustration and a sense of inadequacy, inferiority and shame in people. (To use RK’s own words), damaging them!

Rather, when we honour Jesus then one of the things He does in return is He honours the investment he has put in us, to let it flourish. This is part of His plan and purpose in the way He made us, to be placed like a gem or precious stone, in the ‘setting’ of the Body. The stone is revealed in its best when in the setting it was designed for. We are all precious stones in this way, in the Body of Christ, where He shines through us.

Point 3 ‘Some females usurp authority. They claim to be the spiritual head over their husbands. They turn everything upside down. This has actually happened.’

People who are suppressed and controlled will find ways to empower themselves. Those who are oppressed will learn, over time, to trade in power, and will play the game to seek the advantage. The negative side of their giftings is what they’ll use for this end, and you’ll find yourself locked in a subversive battle. A win/loose battle, that reflects nothing of Jesus but is all about survival at the expense of the other.

Point 4 ‘The husband may give in to such a usurping wife. He may even take the lead to rebel….a certain man….appointed three sisters to be leading sisters, including his wife. They and the women who followed them caused some of the most painful and traumatic suffering that we have ever experienced. Eventually, Brother Lee said, “this is a cancer”. They rejected Brother Lee’s fellowship, but the Lord cut that cancer out of the body.

Only because these women were ‘leading’, ‘pain, trauma and suffering’ happened, and they became a ‘cancer’? (who experienced this pain and trauma? It’s not included on this forum as part of the grievances of those who have left that I have noticed). Only women who accept their place in this system will not find this a demeaning attitude.

Queen Elizabeth the first was arguably the best monarch England has had, and certainly had the wisdom and insight needed at that time, unlike her father. Deborah lead Israel. We can’t ignore these testimonies against the claims of the LC.

The rest of the Article:

There is so much funny stuff in the first section of this document that the attempt at mopping it up just doesn’t work. RK has declared his wife to be ‘nothing’, not ‘her gifting and calling lie elsewhere in the ministry’. You can’t really fudge that. I don’t know that sharing in her husband’s ministry will damage her, but such words definitely would. How can you be nothing when you are fearfully and wonderfully made? When Jesus valued you enough to die for you?

Next. Miriam and Aron. They criticized Moses due to the familiarity of being his siblings, not because Miriam was a woman. The fact of her being female seems neither directly or indirectly relevant to the story at all. If it is, then someone please explain that to me. She received punishment and Aron didn’t, the bible doesn’t explain why, so it’s up to us to either guess, speculate, or ask for revelation. Maybe God did it that way because He just doesn’t like women!!!! (I don’t agree with that idea, by the way, but I suspect some in the LC do!).

The whole article is all about control, and whose got it and who’s not allowed any!!

I suggest a read of the book 'Why not Women' by Loren Cunningham and David Hamilton. It gives history and context to male/female attitudes in the Christian church and in Israel before the time of Christ, for those who haven't researched it before it covers the subject well.

That's my response to this article!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Hey brothers, why don't we just put a sock in our mouth and ask all the sisters out there what they think of what Ron Kangas spewed out in that meeting? I have a feeling that their expanded paraphrase would be even harsher than mine.

Sisters. Fire away!
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UntoHim,

There was no need to “twist” Ron Kangas’ words. The words came out of his mouth twisted.

He spoke in plain English. No need to insult anyone’s intelligence with pretense of some “spiritual” message. We know this because of history.

My question: Who talks this way? Who talks this way and why? To what end?

Here’s what Ron and his defenders should have said:

I’m sorry. I was wrong. We were wrong. My words toward my wife were harsh and incendiary and I totally understand why they were received as they were. I should have realized that whatever point I was trying to make would be lost.

I/We now realize that, historically, with such speaking and indeed treatment of women, those of us in Leadership have cultivated a culture of abuse in the churches. To all of you, men and women, I offer my sincere repentance for this terrible misrepresentation of God’s Word and God’s heart toward all of those for whom he gave his Son.

As fallen men, we learned a false understanding of authority. We seek to exercise authority over others, and indeed over women specifically. This is wrong. We are wrong. Please accept our repentance for propagating this evil and destructive understanding among the believers in the church for whom Jesus died.

If there is anyone among you, and I’m sure there are many, who have something you would like to say to us, bring to our attention, our door is now open. In the past, we assumed a position of power over you, punished you and blamed you for speaking the truth to us or about us. Not that we deserve it, but please forgive us, for once again, we were wrong. Our door was closed to you and to the truth. Please forgive us for our past offenses, our blindness and our deafness. We want to hear you and repent to each of you who desire to come and open your hearts to us without fear of retribution or retaliation or accusations of being “negative” or any such thing.

These are the words of a shepherd.

Nell

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Nell

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;[/COLOR
Isaiah 5:20 “Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil; that put darkness for light and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!”

Lord help and forgive us all.
Nell

But they still claim that we shouldn't follow the principle of good and evil coming from tree of knowledge of good and evil embodied by Satan.

[Truthseeker]

Concerning Myriam and Aaron who protested against Moses's marriage with Gentiles, it symbolizes Christ typified by Moses married with the Church as a bridegroom coming from gentile nations. This predicts Christ will be rejected by Myriam (Hebrew name refers to rebellion) typified as rebellious Israel and Aaron typified as Judaism's priesthood like Annas and Caiphas who reject Jesus.

The reason why only Myriam became leprous while Aaron was still fine is that God, even forsaking Israel and turning to Gentiles, still keeps Judaic priesthood until second coming of Jesus and millennium kingdom where Jews will serve Him as priests.

So, it has nothing to do with self proclaiming deputy authority of God among Blended Brothers and LC.

[Ohio]

The real question here is not whether the wife of Ron Kangas has any legitimate authority, but whether Ron has any legitimate authority in the body of Christ.

Ron Kangas was a Princeton theological graduate who became an ineffective elder in a local church, and then was picked by WL to be a book editor at LSM. Kangas rose to prominence at LSM after John Ingalls and his translation team were thrown under the bus over the Phillip Lee scandal. Whereas Kangas, Benson Phillips, Ray Graver, and others bowed down to WL's reprobate son Philip, the so-called "Office," Ingalls and others took a stand for the Lord, for truth, for righteousness, and for the children of God. They were all slandered and expelled for their stand. Forget the Bible, forget the truth, forget about righteousness, forget about God and His people, the Recovery is all about the lust for power and control.

In a religious system which whole-heartedly believed that their movement required a MOTA, a Minister of the Age, when WL died a leadership vacuum was created. As the principal speaker and theologian, Kangas filled that void in the hearts of the Recovery faithful. He assumed Lee's position.

The Recovery loves to use Moses as their authority paradigm. The problem is that no scriptural basis whatsoever exists that Moses was a type or picture of a N.T. minister. The Bible clearly states, however, that Moses was the forerunner of Jesus Christ, who build God's house. (Deut 18, Acts 3, Hebrews 3, II Cor 3-4, etc.)

After leaving the Catholic church of my upbringing, I rejected all false Papal claims of the "Vicar of Christ" on earth. After leaving the Recovery, I also rejected all illegitimate MOTA claims of "Deputy Authority" by WL or any of his Blendeds, including Ron Kangas.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Nell

My question: Who talks this way? Who talks this way and why? To what end?

Here’s what Ron and his defenders should have said:

I’m sorry. I was wrong. We were wrong. My words toward my wife were harsh and incendiary and I totally understand why they were received as they were. I should have realized that whatever point I was trying to make would be lost.

I/We now realize that, historically, with such speaking and indeed treatment of women, those of us in Leadership have cultivated a culture of abuse in the churches. To all of you, men and women, I offer my sincere repentance for this terrible misrepresentation of God’s Word and God’s heart toward all of those for whom he gave his Son.

As fallen men, we learned a false understanding of authority. We seek to exercise authority over others, and indeed over women specifically. This is wrong. We are wrong. Please accept our repentance for propagating this evil and destructive understanding among the believers in the church for whom Jesus died.

If there is anyone among you, and I’m sure there are many, who have something you would like to say to us, bring to our attention, our door is now open. In the past, we assumed a position of power over you, punished you and blamed you for speaking the truth to us or about us. Not that we deserve it, but please forgive us, for once again, we were wrong. Our door was closed to you and to the truth. Please forgive us for our past offenses, our blindness and our deafness. We want to hear you and repent to each of you who desire to come and open your hearts to us without fear of retribution or retaliation or accusations of being “negative” or any such thing.

These are the words of a shepherd.

Nell

Excellent, Nell.

I wish we had "like" buttons so I could like your post.

It sticks out like a sore thumb that no matter what the BBs say, it is defended tooth and nail. As if they could never, ever say the wrong thing or be too much or be over the top and simply need to apologize for speaking out of line. How much healing that would bring to so many who are bothered by this kind of speaking from the podium!

But nooooooo, everyone ELSE is always wrong. *eye roll*

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Curious

That's my response to this article!

Great post, Curious.

Great point that in the LC the co-worker status imputes a crown. Implicit in Ron's saying he will never exalt his wife is that he is in a position himself of exaltation.

It's also interesting like you said that he puts down those who say their wives "pray with authority" rather than "pray effectively". Who cares about "praying with authority"? Only those who want to be seen in front of others as having authority, which Jesus told us not to do. As believers we all pray with the same authority granted by the same Spirit who lives in us.

For Ron to say "I am the one ministering"......to me it's like.....you don't think you wife can minister to others too? Get over yourself, man.

Regarding Miriam and Aaron, while Miriam did seem to get the direct punishment of leprosy, it is interesting to note what happened to Aaron. Aaron was also speaking against Moses saying "hasn't the Lord also spoken to us?" And when Miriam became leprous, Aaron turned to Moses, called him "my lord", and begged him to ask God to heal Miriam. Aaron was not punished, per se, but he was immediately subjected to Moses's authority and place as the one who had a "direct" line to God, which was the very thing Aaron was rebelling against him about. At the very least Aaron was put in his place.

Another interesting tidbit, while we're on the story, is that immediately after the pillar of cloud of the Lord left Miriam's skin is described as "white as snow". The appearance of white as snow was actually the indicator that someone was healed of the disease and meant they were clean.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Nell

Here’s what Ron and his defenders should have said:
I’m sorry. I was wrong. We were wrong. My words toward my wife were harsh and incendiary and I totally understand why they were received as they were. I should have realized that whatever point I was trying to make would be lost.

We are doing a particular thing here on this thread, and elsewhere on this forum. My posts about shepherdingwords are written to break down the statements of the LC and show what they really say. Others are doing that too. Nell’s post here are actually words for the LC leaders what a healthy and humble statement would look like. It reveals the bar, the standard that should be expected from them. (I hope they will develop the wisdom to take advantage of this grace through Nell’s offering a template they could easily follow).

My main hope and prayer is that this will help lurkers. Those current LCer’s secretly reading this forum who are gradually shifting their paradigm. I hope it helps them to break out of the haze that comes over their minds to confuse and almost bewitch them whenever the familiar wording and concepts reach out at them, through statements issued by the LSM wordsmiths. The style of speaking, and use of key words are so familiar, and a person is so conditioned to not be able to process the statements critically. ie, there is an ingrained conditioned response to key words and phrases (like the word ‘proper’) that can disempower the questioning LCer’s mind. The extent to which the person’s mind has been dominated by this style of speaking determines how hard this is to battle. It’s a form of ‘fear-based, mind-control programming’. We are breaking it down for them. I hope it is working.

Nell’s post again: to repent imputes value to the person who has been wronged. A rightful value, an attempt to restore them, through retracting the intention behind the injustice they suffered. Repenting is a practical expression of love and respect towards the ones mistreated. I encourage any LC lurker reading this to repeat-read (in the vein of pray-read!) Nell’s suggestion of what a true shepherd would say to his flock. To get a hold in their heart of what honour they should expect to receive from the LSM. Any person with shame-based processing will take time and repetition to assimilate this as shame can feel familiar and safe. Hating yourself can feel holy, I know, I used to be there, but it is actually staying stuck in toxic mud. I hope and pray for people to dare to allow themselves to grow and form a rightful value for themselves through the Holy Spirit and these posts.

also, thanks to those adding alumination to the story of Aron and Miriam. very interesting and things to ponder. that she was cleansed by Gods chastening feels right. His correcting comes from His grace and is always to restore. even if it is a type of things to come, it still needed to make sense to those there at the time, I believe.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Curious

We are doing a particular thing here on this thread, and elsewhere on this forum.

My main hope and prayer is that this will help lurkers. Those current LCer’s secretly reading this forum who are gradually shifting their paradigm. I hope it helps them to break out of the haze that comes over their minds to confuse and almost bewitch them whenever the familiar wording and concepts reach out at them, through statements issued by the LSM wordsmiths. The style of speaking, and use of key words are so familiar, and a person is so conditioned to not be able to process the statements critically. ie, there is an ingrained conditioned response to key words and phrases (like the word ‘proper’) that can disempower the questioning LCer’s mind. The extent to which the person’s mind has been dominated by this style of speaking determines how hard this is to battle. It’s a form of ‘fear-based, mind-control programming’. We are breaking it down for them. I hope it is working.

Each of us must learn how to unlock the shackles which bind our own minds to the false authority usurped by the Blendeds at LSM. For me personally, this happened while I was reading John Ingalls' account Speaking the Truth in Love back in 2005.

How ironic is it that every stage of the so-called "Recovery" also required the same unshackling of mental authoritarian strongholds gripping the genuine seekers of God Himself? Firstly, read the Gospel of John carefully and one can readily ascertain the false authority imprisoning those who met the Savior Himself. Those folks lived in morbid fear of what the Jewish leaders would do to the followers of Jesus. Jesus told them that He was the Door, the door out of their prison, the door into green pastures. Following Him always leads us into freedom of heart.

Consider the inner torment and struggles of the reformer Martin Luther. On a miniature scale, some of our own journeys matched his. Luther had access to the word of God, and began to see thru the lies and falsehoods of Roman traditions. Still mentally entangled to Papal authority, as a priest he made a pilgrimage to Rome, the "holy" city. There he saw the filth of corruption, prostitution, lawlessness, and he was thoroughly shaken within. God used that trip to free Luther. Likewise, many of us needed to read about the corruptions in the Lee family -- deception, immorality, abuses, filthy lucre, and more -- in order for us to be freed within from the bondage of authoritarian schemes and strongholds controlling us and imprisoning our minds to their system of error.

The sad tragedy of recent Recovery history is that every expulsion of false authority -- whether Darby, Nee, or Lee -- eventually became a far worse authoritarian scheme than the one they rejected. This is why Recovery leaders are so keen on rewriting history, otherwise the membership might learn and reject what has happened in their midst. There was real liberty back in the days of Elden Hall, but today those liberties are gone. Of course, some do learn, and speak their conscience on behalf of the children of God, but those that do must be slandered and branded as rebellious, leprous, ambitious, divisive, "man of death," etc.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Each of us must learn how to unlock the shackles which bind our own minds to the false authority usurped by the Blendeds at LSM.

What is really interesting with many of the current events in the LC is that a lot of these statements being made by Ron and others are fairly straight-forward as to what is being said. For example, the statement that Ron made about his wife is not something that normal people would interpret to be anything different than what he said.

So when shepherdingwords.com puts a spin on it, they're not really fooling anyone, even those in the LC. What it really boils down to is that the blendeds are doing/speaking a lot of questionable things, and I would think that people in the LC are at least somewhat aware of that. For people in the LC, it's mainly a matter of how such actions get rationalized. I think people in the LC are willing to ignore the obvious if they feel there is enough rationalization for what is happening.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Each of us must learn how to unlock the shackles which bind our own minds to the false authority usurped by the Blendeds at LSM. For me personally, this happened while I was reading John Ingalls' account Speaking the Truth in Love back in 2005.

It’s not just recent Recovery history. It goes back to Luther. His early history is marvelous, but his end and that of his most ardent “Lutheran” followers was horrible, including deplorable filth-filled lambasting of some of his Christian brothers and of the Jews. The last were used by the Nazis (in spite of Luther’s early ministry to the contrary.

The lesson? Don’t build Christ’s Eklesia on the so called “pillars”, build it on Christ, the cornerstone, and his apostles who laid the foundation in the first place.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

It’s not just recent Recovery history. It goes back to Luther. His early history is marvelous, but his end and that of his most ardent “Lutheran” followers was horrible, including deplorable filth-filled lambasting of some of his Christian brothers and of the Jews. The last were used by the Nazis (in spite of Luther’s early ministry to the contrary.

The lesson? Don’t build Christ’s Eklesia on the so called “pillars”, build it on Christ, the cornerstone, and his apostles who laid the foundation in the first place.

Amen to this! Luther went off course at times, speaking anti-semitic epithets actually used centuries later by Hitler's propaganda apparatus. Luther refused to work with other reformers like Zwingli and Calvin over the superstitions surrounding the Eucharist. (Now doesn't that sound like Darby, Nee, and Lee?) I'm not taking anything away from Martin Luther, but elevating him to the status of the "First MOTA of the Recovery" is purely self-serving revisionist church history.

And let me take this a step further. As I was de-toxing from my decades in the Recovery, I came to the conclusion that without second source corroboration, all church history I had ever learned inside the LC's had to be discarded. All of it was twisted and skewed to serve a false narrative. To use today's vernacular, it was all "fake news."

Take this quote by Goebbells, the NAZI propagandist, and substitute the "Recovery" for the "State:"

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

Does this not explain recent Blended actions, messages, and websites?

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Amen to this! Luther went off course at times, speaking anti-semitic epithets actually used centuries later by Hitler's propaganda apparatus. Luther refused to work with other reformers like Zwingli and Calvin over the superstitions surrounding the Eucharist. (Now doesn't that sound like Darby, Nee, and Lee?) I'm not taking anything away from Martin Luther, but elevating him to the status of the "First MOTA of the Recovery" is purely self-serving revisionist church history.

And let me take this a step further. As I was de-toxing from my decades in the Recovery, I came to the conclusion that without second source corroboration, all church history I had ever learned inside the LC's had to be discarded. All of it was twisted and skewed to serve a false narrative. To use today's vernacular, it was all "fake news."

Take this quote by Goebbells, the NAZI propagandist, and substitute the "Recovery" for the "State:"
Does this not explain recent Blended actions, messages, and websites?

OH my. Yes!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Hey brothers, why don't we just put a sock in our mouth and ask all the sisters out there what they think of what Ron Kangas spewed out in that meeting? I have a feeling that their expanded paraphrase would be even harsher than mine.

Sisters. Fire away!
-

The Local Church turns believers into ones who speak harshly, think cruelly, and are hardened in heart towards fellow saints in Christ our Lord. The only thing Rons' speaking was lacking was truth, love, and edification of the body in Christ. Not too bad when I consider my own failures alongside theirs. I am not innocent of totally failing in what the Lord laid before us, the Christian commission.....love being the greatest. But I have to agree with Nell. Humble yourself before those you trespass against. Seek forgiveness in true repentance. I think that is what Paul was talking about, Christ being magnified in his (and our) weakness. The Lords' humility and love would be on display, in the saints who could confess, ''I was wrong''.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The real question here is not whether the wife of Ron Kangas has any legitimate authority, but whether Ron has any legitimate authority in the body of Christ.

Good question, Ohio.

Here’s some of what our ol’ friend Matt Anderson has to say about the topic of authority as it relates to punishment.

Abstract

One of the subjects we can look at in the Word of God to help understand how much authority has been given to church leaders is (the subject of) punishment. If you have full authority over someone, then you will have the power to punish to ensure that your authority is established.

Admittedly, this is a somewhat unusual way to look at the topic of authority in the Bible. However, I believe a review of the subject of punishment as it relates to the Body of Christ and ones leading in the Body of Christ is very relevant.

There is one main question to consider that has two facets:

What authority to punish other believers is given to
a) other believers (i.e. siblings in Christ),
b) ones leading in the church?

(Emphasis added)

http://laymansfellowship.com/table-o...-in-the-bible/

Nell

[Ohio]

When it comes to "Authority" in the body of Christ, Ron Kangas at LSM loves to consider himself the present day Moses. Supposedly then RK has been called by God in the burning bush, conveyed 10 plagues on Pharoah and Egypt, has parted the Red Sea, has been to the mountain, has received the vision, has the glow of God on his face, has build God's house, and how dare anyone even criticize a stupid thing he does or says!

Only his little circle of blendeds take anything he says seriously. The entire body of Christ, on the other hand, would shake their heads and wonder if he was delusional, like a Jim Jones or a David Koresh.

But let's look at what the apostles have told us about authority in the church. Peter conveyed what Jesus regularly taught about never lording it over the church like the Gentiles rule their charge. In his instructions to both Timothy and Titus, Paul enumerated qualifications for both elders and deacons in all the churches. This is extremely significant. Paul never stated that leaders should be loyal yes-men or authoritative figures, owing allegiance to some fake headquarters. That would be the message from the super-apostles and the Judaizers.

Instead Paul mentions that elders should be moral, upright, and those who manage their own households well. Paul saw the urgent need for time-tested and proven men of character to lead the church. Paul saw that each church needed men to exercise the same traits of authority exhibited in healthy homes. Elders were to be the same shepherding fathers and teachers in the church that they were with their own families. Just as overly authoritative fathers are failures in their own homes, authoritative elders are damaging to the house of God. What father would tell his children about their mother, what Ron Kangas said to the saints about his wife?

[JJ]

The apostles had authority and could be severe if they had too, but they did everything they could to not be severe first, and only very reluctanty after three warnings. https://biblehub.com/bsb/2_corinthians/13.htm.

Severity was not the apostles M.O. Gentleness was. I’m convinced that a spirit of severity is perhaps “the problem of problems” in “The Recovery” and was passed on from exclusive Brethren leaders, through M.E Barber to Watchman Nee, on to Witness Lee, and continues in Blended Bro’s today. Lord help them and me to repent and change!

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I grew up in this church. It took tremendous courage to #walkaway @ 18. I have spent many hours to re-write my brain from the deleterious effects of this wicked cult.

As a woman, I was diminished and treated as a second class citizen. Taught that I was nothing, had no value, was separated from my sexual nature which I severely repressed. I was taught that I would have an arranged marriage some day. I was taught never to question the teachings, to be 100% obedient to all the adults in the church. The older women teach the younger women how to be afraid, how to hate themselves, how to be very afraid of people not in the church, how to hate their bodies, how to not turn into Eve, Jezebel and be more like Esther.

Dear friends. It would seem the idea that a woman is ‘nothing’, stated in the words of Ron Kangas, may indicate more than him just ‘shooting his (most venerated and perfected) mouth off’. I found the reference above in a thread ‘A Sister’s Testimony’ amongst the ‘Introductions and Testimonies’ sub-heading on this forum. It repeats RK’s words on shepherdingwords.com, but before they were posted there, before he spoke them too I think.

I find it interesting that her words indicate RK was indeed speaking of the policy of the local churches regarding the value taught to women. I think it may have been aron or Ohio posted somewhere, amongst many testimonies, patterns emerge. Those patterns reveal what is really there.

let this be another testimony to add to the exposure of their internal orthodoxy of the belief that 'women are nothing.'

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When it comes to "Authority" in the body of Christ, Ron Kangas at LSM loves to consider himself the present day Moses. Supposedly then RK has been called by God in the burning bush, conveyed 10 plagues on Pharoah and Egypt, has parted the Red Sea, has been to the mountain, has received the vision, has the glow of God on his face, has build God's house, and how dare anyone even criticize a stupid thing he does or says!

Only his little circle of blendeds take anything he says seriously. The entire body of Christ, on the other hand, would shake their heads and wonder if he was delusional, like a Jim Jones or a David Koresh.

But let's look at what the apostles have told us about authority in the church. Peter conveyed what Jesus regularly taught about never lording it over the church like the Gentiles rule their charge. In his instructions to both Timothy and Titus, Paul enumerated qualifications for both elders and deacons in all the churches. This is extremely significant. Paul never stated that leaders should be loyal yes-men or authoritative figures, owing allegiance to some fake headquarters. That would be the message from the super-apostles and the Judaizers.

Instead Paul mentions that elders should be moral, upright, and those who manage their own households well. Paul saw the urgent need for time-tested and proven men of character to lead the church. Paul saw that each church needed men to exercise the same traits of authority exhibited in healthy homes. Elders were to be the same shepherding fathers and teachers in the church that they were with their own families. Just as overly authoritative fathers are failures in their own homes, authoritative elders are damaging to the house of God. What father would tell his children about their mother, what Ron Kangas said to the saints about his wife?

Yeah, just wanted to say that I agree with what Ohio wrote here in bold. If you picture Ron's shameful speaking about his wife in a home or family setting, his behavior becomes all the more shocking and abhorrent. If you observed a husband speaking that way about his wife at home, no one would logically consider him for leadership in a church. I am just floored that no one in the room of 4,000 attendees spoke up when he said that. What a blanket of mouth-shutting oppression there is in the local church!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

What is really interesting with many of the current events in the LC is that a lot of these statements being made by Ron and others are fairly straight-forward as to what is being said. For example, the statement that Ron made about his wife is not something that normal people would interpret to be anything different than what he said.

So when shepherdingwords.com puts a spin on it, they're not really fooling anyone, even those in the LC. What it really boils down to is that the blendeds are doing/speaking a lot of questionable things, and I would think that people in the LC are at least somewhat aware of that. For people in the LC, it's mainly a matter of how such actions get rationalized. I think people in the LC are willing to ignore the obvious if they feel there is enough rationalization for what is happening.

Issue I had was Ron's speaking regarding sisters in general. I have listened to a number of messages Ron gave in the Puget Sound region. Had it been his wife or a young sister it is all the same very demeaning. Having heard these messages over a number of years I'm drawn to one question; what happened in Ron's life he's holding against women?

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Does anyone have a link to where he spoke this about his wife? It at least where and when? Thanks.

Oh yeah, Ron Kangas spewed those disgusting words out at 17m 20s into this video:
https://youtu.be/rD_eSvRMG0I?t=1040

Hope this helps you to wake more people up - P.S.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Oh yeah, Ron Kangas spewed those disgusting words out at 17m 20s into this video:
https://youtu.be/rD_eSvRMG0I?t=1040

Hope this helps you to wake more people up - P.S.

Thanks for posting the link PriestlyScribe. The first couple minutes starting at 17:20 hit me as "drama queen", quite frankly. His voice pregnant with emotion, wavering as he lies about fake "rebellions". Sigh....

Also, just for the record regarding "co-workers" in the Bible....

Romans 16:3 - Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus.

Note – the co-workers here are a couple. A husband and wife.

Both "crowned" and "exalted" the same....if you want to use the unnecessary language Ron used. Soooo......whooops! Looks like there absolutely is Biblical precedent for what Ron considers to be so repulsive.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ron Kangas: "I am the Co-Worker! My wife is nothing! To recognize her as an equal child of God and human being would be to put her on the throne and crown her! There is no room on my royal throne for my spouse! There is only room for me, the exalted Blended Co-Worker! For any sister to have an opinion about anything, much less dare to speak the truth regarding any kind of abuse against her is in rebellion against God's deputy authority, and they are subject to having the earth open up and swallow them alive!"
(Highly expanded paraphrase by UntoHim, and does not necessarily reflect the attitudes or opinions of any other forum member)
-

No way!!! I can not believe in it! I heard already about they have their pope WL. But this? nooooo!!!

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Concerning Myriam and Aaron who protested against Moses's marriage with Gentiles, it symbolizes Christ typified by Moses married with the Church as a bridegroom coming from gentile nations. This predicts Christ will be rejected by Myriam (Hebrew name refers to rebellion) typified as rebellious Israel and Aaron typified as Judaism's priesthood like Annas and Caiphas who reject Jesus.

The reason why only Myriam became leprous while Aaron was still fine is that God, even forsaking Israel and turning to Gentiles, still keeps Judaic priesthood until second coming of Jesus and millennium kingdom where Jews will serve Him as priests.

So, it has nothing to do with self proclaiming deputy authority of God among Blended Brothers and LC.

Would be prfect if that were anly matter of symbols in Old Testament. The main problem is, that they lost Holly Spirit floating among this beautiful explonations. Do not forget about new covenant! If any teaching even right and best in apologetic wat donot bring Heavenly Kingdom than it leads to chaos. This is a matter of spirits. Too many words, too much philosophy! What was IQ of Jesus? Was He smart, stupid? What was His teaching? As some of You said, there is no need to twist RK words. Blind christians think that rain is falling when somebody spits on them! This is really weird when some people listing this messages without sober discern. There is no spritual depth! Are they kidding us! Let's say I will quote him saing to my wife: You are nothing! I am brother leading one! I know for sure what responce would be... The mani thing is that he hipnotise listiners. They think: oh, yeas! Brather Ron Kangas! He, is great! What a message! For sure there is spiritual hidden meanning! Of course he meant nothing wrong!

[StevenLi89]

Who's Ron Kangas? I never heard of that person during my time at Local Churches. Local churches are good at keeping secrets, so they're opaque. Also they don't want the their past misdeeds to be leaked towards other churches not affiliated with Local Churches. I'm sure corruption still exists to this day.

I'm sure Local Churches organisation still get criticism, ever after Witness Lee is gone.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by StevenLi89

Who's Ron Kangas? I never heard of that person during my time at Local Churches. Local churches are good at keeping secrets, so they're opaque. Also they don't want the their past misdeeds to be leaked towards other churches not affiliated with Local Churches. I'm sure corruption still exists to this day.

I'm sure Local Churches organisation still get criticism, ever after Witness Lee is gone.

Primary teacher and theologian at LSM in Anaheim after WL passed. Before that was WL’s chief editor. He develops meeting outlines, speaks at trainings and conferences, often travels, but by now is quite elderly.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by StevenLi89

Who's Ron Kangas? I never heard of that person during my time at Local Churches. Local churches are good at keeping secrets, so they're opaque. Also they don't want the their past misdeeds to be leaked towards other churches not affiliated with Local Churches. I'm sure corruption still exists to this day.

I'm sure Local Churches organisation still get criticism, ever after Witness Lee is gone.

Ron Kangas is the one who said about WL: "we have someone bigger than Pope!".
Who knows... who knows...?

[StevenLi89]

*even*

I meant even after Witness Lee is gone

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ron Kangas: "I am the Co-Worker! My wife is nothing! To recognize her as an equal child of God and human being would be to put her on the throne and crown her! There is no room on my royal throne for my spouse! There is only room for me, the exalted Blended Co-Worker! For any sister to have an opinion about anything, much less dare to speak the truth regarding any kind of abuse against her is in rebellion against God's deputy authority, and they are subject to having the earth open up and swallow them alive!"
(Highly expanded paraphrase by UntoHim, and does not necessarily reflect the attitudes or opinions of any other forum member)
-

Hello,

Was this statement by RK was made about his wife that passed away, or a newly acquired one from Russia?

Not that it should really matter, it happens that this insult was flung towards the second wife who happens to be of Asian descent. I doubt Ron would have hurled out such a condescending thing to his first wife Susan. From what I know, she was a real tiger and she would publicly humiliated him in an instant!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Flybynight

Not that it should really matter, it happens that this insult was flung towards the second wife who happens to be of Asian descent. I doubt Ron would have hurled out such a condescending thing to his first wife Susan. From what I know, she was a real tiger and she would publicly humiliated him in an instant!

Hey Flybynight—
I would love to create a member account for you! Love the name! Send a request to Reg4LCD@Gmail.Com…

Nell/Admin/Moderator

[Robert]

Originally Posted by StevenLi89

*even*

I meant even after Witness Lee is gone

You are right! Even after Witness Lee is gone, Ron Kangas is wasting his time talking about Witness instead of Christ! He is good exxample of deceived Christian. They never say:" I am so sorry! I was wrong!"
They just die withe all mistakes. That is example of what WL has left.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Robert

They never say:" I am so sorry! I was wrong!"

That is why brothers in the lead rarely exhibited humility nor repentance.
There was an expectation from others to repent to them.
If brothers in the lead offended or wronged anyone, they would not say: " I am so sorry! I was wrong!". Rather they would say brother/sister, you need to take the cross.
I may be off here, but in the local churches I think the concept of taking the cross was a bit off. It is utilized to change the narrative when there is conflict between brothers/sisters. To avoid accountability, just take the cross.

[TheStarswillFall]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The real question here is not whether the wife of Ron Kangas has any legitimate authority, but whether Ron has any legitimate authority in the body of Christ.

The Recovery loves to use Moses as their authority paradigm. The problem is that no scriptural basis whatsoever exists that Moses was a type or picture of a N.T. minister. The Bible clearly states, however, that Moses was the forerunner of Jesus Christ, who build God's house. (Deut 18, Acts 3, Hebrews 3, II Cor 3-4, etc.)

In the most recent 2023 semi-annual training Ron Kangas made these statements:

"There are in fact some parallels between me and brother Lee. Brother Lee was also not an elder, just a brother, but what a brother he was! And with him was the ministry of the age..."

"In a certain sense I represent Christ in His heavenly ministry to all the saints".

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

In the most recent 2023 semi-annual training Ron Kangas made these statements:

"There are in fact some parallels between me and brother Lee. Brother Lee was also not an elder, just a brother, but what a brother he was! And with him was the ministry of the age..."

"In a certain sense I represent Christ in His heavenly ministry to all the saints".

Is there somehow that these statements can be heard or verifiable? Anyone has a video or audio they could provide? If so, please post it here.
Thanks

[TheStarswillFall]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Is there somehow that these statements can be heard or verifiable? Anyone has a video or audio they could provide? If so, please post it here.
Thanks

Message 1: Fighting for the Good Land @1:13:25
Message 7: Knowing the Ascension @ 21:00 minutes

The clergy is flexing their muscles for all to see.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

That is why brothers in the lead rarely exhibited humility nor repentance. There was an expectation from others to repent to them.
If brothers in the lead offended or wronged anyone, they would not say: " I am so sorry! I was wrong!". Rather they would say brother/sister, you need to take the cross.
I may be off here, but in the local churches I think the concept of taking the cross was a bit off. It is utilized to change the narrative when there is conflict between brothers/sisters. To avoid accountability, just take the cross.

Yes Terry, and how did all of the LC brothers in the lead come to the (wrong) same conclusion that this was the biblical way to handle offences?

Well, they learned it from their MOTA Witness Lee! Lee TAUGHT them that this was the way for a leader to operate in "God's Economy".

Somewhere on here we were given insight from Thankful Jane as to the mental gymnastics that Benson would engage in after donning his governmental robe - something like "When I am acting in the place of God, and people take offence as a result of what I said or did, it's not at all my problem - it's Gods problem, so I don't have to repent or feel bad!" (Not an exact quote)

To get a glimpse of WL's well established pattern - something which he trained all his loyal leaders to adopt, take a moment to listen to John Ingalls tell the sad story of how WL completely danced around any hint of repentance for his son Philip's attempted molestation of an LSM serving sister on the airplane:

Link to audio: https://www.spreaker.com/episode/par...1988--58426377
Link to text: https://johningalls.com/#/reader/chapter/24



P.S.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

In the most recent 2023 semi-annual training Ron Kangas made these statements:

"There are in fact some parallels between me and brother Lee. Brother Lee was also not an elder, just a brother, but what a brother he was! And with him was the ministry of the age..."

"In a certain sense I represent Christ in His heavenly ministry to all the saints".

These disgusting concepts are totally foreign to the New Testament, and really are sourced in Pagan Rome. The Roman Pope was merely a continuation of the Roman Caesar. This deification of the Roman leader has never left Western Civilization since Julius Caesar was first exalted as a god. The coming Therion Beast* of Revelation will soon replace the Papacy and exalt himself as the Christ, as Israel's Messiah, as the only God on earth, demanding all men to worship him under penalty of death.

The Pope in Rome and the MOTA in Anaheim differ only in scale.


*The Revelation Beast (Revelation chapters 13 thru 19) really should not be called the "Antichrist" because the Bible does not. The Greek word is "therion" which is literally translated a "wild beast." This Wild Beast will not just be anti-christ, or against Christ, but is the Man of Sin who will exalt himself as God of all (2 Thess 2.4) and really should be considered as the archetypal "False Christ." (Matt 24.24)

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Ohio

These disgusting concepts are totally foreign to the New Testament, and really are sourced in Pagan Rome. The Roman Pope was merely a continuation of the Roman Caesar. This deification of the Roman leader has never left Western Civilization since Julius Caesar was first exalted as a god. The coming Therion Beast* of Revelation will soon replace the Papacy and exalt himself as the Christ, as Israel's Messiah, as the only God on earth, demanding all men to worship him under penalty of death.

The Pope in Rome and the MOTA in Anaheim differ only in scale.


*The Revelation Beast (Revelation chapters 13 thru 19) really should not be called the "Antichrist" because the Bible does not. The Greek word is "therion" which is literally translated a "wild beast." This Wild Beast will not just be anti-christ, or against Christ, but is the Man of Sin who will exalt himself as God of all (2 Thess 2.4) and really should be considered as the archetypal "False Christ." (Matt 24.24)

To be fair I don't really get the sense that those in the recovery uplift Ron or Ed or Minoru or any of the other speakers as "heads" of the recovery. But then again maybe they do. Hard to say. If so it's something that is unspoken. Whereas the pope is literally designated "the guy" in Christianity

But I will say that it's hard for me to listen to Ron speak sometimes. I think he's mellowed out in his old age. But man back in like say 2007 that guy was just bordering nutty in how angry he would get when he'd go off on his tangents in his talks

I will also say that I've heard him talk about the regions of the work and I've personally heard him shoot down the concept of certain big brothers in certain regions who think they own the entire region. However it's entirely possible he was talking about like say Titus Chu or some big rebel like that. Or maybe he was talking in generality about that issue. Which is a real issue btw. It's complicated though because I've seen that. I've seen "big time brothers" walk around with cocky confidence like they're the big cheese of certain localities. I've seen it in Seattle, I've seen it in Bellevue, and I've seen it in Renton. Do the blended brothers do that? Idk man, it's a weird creepy thing is authority in a church setting. It's a big turn off

What's funny is idk the exact quote you all are hitting Ron with here in this thread, I have no way of verifying any of it, but I also know he's said some really dodgy stuff over the years about women. Some of it is true though. Once he said that it's the woman's fault that sin came into the world, which is technically true. I know that will trigger some sensitive folks on here, but it's a biblical fact. And today satan is STILL using the women to dismantle the male leadership and to harm males in general. But on the other hand it doesn't sit right with me that women are viewed as second class citizens by Bro Lee and the recovery. My sister left the recovery because of that very reason, and because of that footnotes Lee wrote saying women are weaker physically and mentally than men. I think I kind of believe it, but it's just not really fair and calls into question the fairness of God himself in his design, as well as his love. Complex issue, unless you're a hard line lefty idealist, then you'll probably be triggered and send me a hateful response to this

At any rate, my sister confronted Ron Kangus to his face about the issue back in like idk 2003 or something. He ducked and dodged around the question. But she left the recovery because she was capable enough to teach and she was teaching the young people in Pullman rather well for awhile, but then the local male leadership came in and told her she had to stop due to her gender. That was the last straw for her and she hasn't really been back since besides the occasional visit for whatever reason once every few years if that. But she told me that she had known about the women being created less than since she was very young, maybe 7 or 8 years old when she would read the Bible at that age. She said it bothered her even then but because she loved God so much she kind of just ignored it until her early 20's when it became a serious problem for her personal identity. There may have been some other issues with the church in Pullman that precipitated that breakdown in her relationship with God though. Being told you can't do something not because you're unqualified, but because of your gender is just straight up bigotry. But it's in the Bible, so is the local church at fault for that? Or is the Bible?

I don't have an answer really for any of it aside from I think that if that's what God did then I can understand why women would feel horrible about the whole thing. You'd have to take it up with God regarding his design

But also similar to how harsh Lee was to the denominations I have heard Kangus be harsh towards females in his speaking. I don't think morally that is right from Kangus or Lee. It's a haughty spirit to mock others who are in a different station than you. I'm sure it was worse maybe say in the 80's or the 70's when things were pretty wild in the recovery. Which is probably how a lot of abuse got swept under the rug

[Nell]

Here ya’ go, Jay:

https://shepherdingwords.com/twistin...kangass-words/

Nell

Originally Posted by Nell

Here ya’ go, Jay:

https://shepherdingwords.com/twistin...kangass-words/

Nell

As a men, I can say that the Local Churches are one of the worst places for marriage, having children and especially daughters and women in general. When the one so-called coworker who speaks these things out loud and promotes them in the meeting or a message, the many parrots that sit there and listen, repeat them, practice them, and offer them as a truth of some sorts. I have my daughter still involved with this cult, I just can’t imagine the emptiness and the utter pain going on inside her, but unfortunately she can’t open up and say anything.

I pray that these fake apostles seize to exist, and this institution will be destroyed by God and found out for all to see. Benson Jr said during his papas funeral that these fake apostles will be “gone or incapacitated in 5 years”, let’s hope his prediction comes through, because I’m keeping count! Enough damage has already been done for 3 generations, and I hope and pray this plague will be gone from earth and people will be set free!

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

In the most recent 2023 semi-annual training Ron Kangas made these statements:

"There are in fact some parallels between me and brother Lee. Brother Lee was also not an elder, just a brother, but what a brother he was! And with him was the ministry of the age..."

"In a certain sense I represent Christ in His heavenly ministry to all the saints".

Is this from the December 2023 semi-annual training? I haven't been able to find it online yet, but if I ever do, I'm grateful to have those timestamps.

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

Message 1: Fighting for the Good Land @1:13:25
Message 7: Knowing the Ascension @ 21:00 minutes

The clergy is flexing their muscles for all to see.

It's interesting to hear that they are really starting to openly push for a new Minister of the Age. I'm not surprised at all that Ron Kangas is the prime candidate right now. Do we know where/how we can access some audio/video of this conference/training?

I know they've posted some audio clips from their trainings before like the one where they took a huge dump on Jo Casteel.

It'd be nice to be able to hear it from Kangas himself.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Is this from the December 2023 semi-annual training? I haven't been able to find it online yet, but if I ever do, I'm grateful to have those timestamps.



It's interesting to hear that they are really starting to openly push for a new Minister of the Age. I'm not surprised at all that Ron Kangas is the prime candidate right now. Do we know where/how we can access some audio/video of this conference/training?

I know they've posted some audio clips from their trainings before like the one where they took a huge dump on Jo Casteel.

It'd be nice to be able to hear it from Kangas himself.

Yeah I can't find any of this on youtube. I'd like to heard the audio

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Nell

Here ya’ go, Jay:

https://shepherdingwords.com/twistin...kangass-words/

Nell

Yeah they're really back pedaling on this one. I've watched Kangus enough to know that he has kind of a deep seeded thing against women in general. I guess I understand why though. I don't think in and of itself it's abhorent per se. It's certainly problematic, but I totally get it. If you're someone who understands that satan is very much behind and instigating things through the waves of modern feminism then it's a different perspective. On the other hand idealistically equality should be the norm. But I believe after the first wave of feminism things went to hell quick and they've really damaged society through the subsequent waves of feminism. But.....with that said, Ron is a speaker and he should be very careful how he words things, and I don't really think he was over the years so much on this topic. If it uncovers something deeper about the recovery then that's a different thing than calling out the evils of modern feminism. If women are viewed as second class citizens in the recovery then obviously it can bring about huge problems. They have to be so careful in everything they say because some young brothers might take the idea and run with it and I'm sure they have

But yeah they are really doing damage control on that one. But I think he's said borderline worse over the years

Would the critics have Ron skip the story of Miriam’s leprosy and the lessons to be learned from it? Would they have him ignore the lessons from our own history? Those who follow the speaking of the ministry in the Lord’s recovery know that the brothers, including Brother Ron, speak much more regularly to the leading brothers in the churches about rebellions instigated by ambitious brothers, charging the leading ones not to exercise control or lord it over the saints but to shepherd them and become a pattern to them (1 Pet. 5:2-3). In the same message in which Brother Ron spoke about Miriam, he spent an equal amount of time on the rebellion of Korah, a rebellion led by men and fueled by rivalry and ambition in the service of the Lord, and more than twice as much time on how to properly represent God as a leading brother.

They're trying to be "balanced and fair" but totally ignoring the whole part where Lee says women are inferior to men in the footnotes

When it is read in context, Brother Ron’s point in mentioning his wife in his message on Miriam was not to denigrate her but to illustrate that his role in serving the Lord as a co-worker does not bestow any status in the Lord’s work upon her

But it does upon him? Lol, they don't realize that they just uplifted Ron here. Technically we all are nothing in the eyes of God. If God uses us then it's not that we are special, it's just that he chose to use us. I guess they don't realize that they're uplifting Ron to a higher status than the regular saints here. Shot themselves in the foot while trying to defend a different topic lol

So is Ron in a special class, like sayyyyyyy a clergy class? lol, so now we're uplifting the speakers huh? smh

Crazy how there's literally a website out here just to defend this stuff. Man, what happened to turning the other cheek and letting God figure it out? They condemn the practice of calling out error when it presents itself, but they don't see their own errors in doing so. Darn that pesky truth! lol, if they had nothing to hide why are they so vigilantly defending themselves? No I don't think anyone took anything out of context here, Ron is just putting down his wife as below him and uplifting himself to a status that is higher than the average believers, which he claims his wife is. So if his wife is nothing then all the women in the recovery must be nothing too. And all the none speaking and none elder brothers as well? Or are they higher status than all the women? What a can of worms man. How about just leave all of that alone and focus on Christ which is what you're supposed to do

"I am so thankful I have my companion, my wife, to travel with me wherever I go, but I am the co-worker; I am the one ministering. She is nothing. She is no one. She is just my wife. I will never crown her. I will never exalt her. To do so would be to damage her" -Ron Kangus

So your wife is nothing but you're something? Are you implying that you're wearing a crown here Ron? How is this not pride? I thought there were no class or distinctions in the church? If there's no class or distinctions then why are the wives of the leading brothers claiming they have a higher class than others? Why did that happen in the first place? Could it be because they saw their husbands basking in the glory of their positions and the wives wanted in on some of that power?

Here is a really good article I found on no class or distinctions in the church- https://gewatkins.net/what-about-chu...-distinctions/

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Jay

So your wife is nothing but you're something? Are you implying that you're wearing a crown here Ron? How is this not pride? I thought there were no class or distinctions in the church? If there's no class or distinctions then why are the wives of the leading brothers claiming they have a higher class than others? Why did that happen in the first place? Could it be because they saw their husbands basking in the glory of their positions and the wives wanted in on some of that power?

I've absolutely seen this in the LC. Elders walking around like celebrities and their wives thinking their husband is the big cheese and thinking they're something too. But didn't Lee say elders were slaves? Where is the humility in any of this? Where is the humanity and lowliness of Jesus? Hard to find a word for it, embarrassing, deplorable, wrong, blatant, unfair, take your pick

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Jay

But it does upon him? Lol, they don't realize that they just uplifted Ron here. Technically we all are nothing in the eyes of God. If God uses us then it's not that we are special, it's just that he chose to use us. I guess they don't realize that they're uplifting Ron to a higher status than the regular saints here. Shot themselves in the foot while trying to defend a different topic lol

So is Ron in a special class, like sayyyyyyy a clergy class? lol, so now we're uplifting the speakers huh? smh

Pretty much yes. The speakers have been uplifted and this has going back decades.
Some have pointed out their observations at regional conferences. How local leading ones are used as buffers between those in attendance and the speaking blendeds. Based on that observation, ones like Ron are in a special class. There's pride and not humility.
They're more likely to backpedal than to offer any concessions or confessions.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Jay

I've absolutely seen this in the LC. Elders walking around like celebrities and their wives thinking their husband is the big cheese and thinking they're something too. But didn't Lee say elders were slaves? Where is the humility in any of this? Where is the humanity and lowliness of Jesus? Hard to find a word for it, embarrassing, deplorable, wrong, blatant, unfair, take your pick

I think it all goes back to the teaching and practice of deputy authority. Brothers whether elders or deacons actually believe they are God's representatives on earth. I heard those claims. That's my explanation why brothers get filled with pride instead of humility.
Last time I was in an LC meeting, my wife and I were visiting where my mother meets. Towards the end of the meeting, a sister stood up to speak, but the lead elder cuts her off telling her to sit down.
Afterwards my wife and I were astonished that happened and how embarrassed
the sister must have felt. If there was humility, the elder would have been patient for the sister to speak before the brother gives his closing word.

[TheStarswillFall]

During message 12 of the December 23 Semi-Annual Training Ron Kangas stated:

"the enemy knows full well that in all the earth Christ can only be exhibited corporately in the recovered local churches."

Ron Reality Kangas also unmistakenly identified himself as one of the seven stars (Rev 1:16) in the Lord's right hand who is able to tell the churches exactly where they are in relation to this age and the coming one. He also emphatically stated that not any believer can be a star according to Rev 1:16 .... oh no, they must be co-workers in the Lord's Recovery - only those are the genuine messengers to the churches.

oh boy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

During message 12 of the December 23 Semi-Annual Training Ron Kangas stated:

"the enemy knows full well that in all the earth Christ can only be exhibited corporately in the recovered local churches."

Ron Reality Kangas also unmistakenly identified himself as one of the seven stars (Rev 1:16) in the Lord's right hand who is able to tell the churches exactly where they are in relation to this age and the coming one. He also emphatically stated that not any believer can be a star according to Rev 1:16 .... oh no, they must be co-workers in the Lord's Recovery - only those are the genuine messengers to the churches.

oh boy.

The Stars will fall.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

I think it all goes back to the teaching and practice of deputy authority. Brothers whether elders or deacons actually believe they are God's representatives on earth. I heard those claims. That's my explanation why brothers get filled with pride instead of humility.
Last time I was in an LC meeting, my wife and I were visiting where my mother meets. Towards the end of the meeting, a sister stood up to speak, but the lead elder cuts her off telling her to sit down.
Afterwards my wife and I were astonished that happened and how embarrassed
the sister must have felt. If there was humility, the elder would have been patient for the sister to speak before the brother gives his closing word.

I remember at a meeting in Renton around 2016 a brother stood up to speak and he was stammering and like pausing because he wasn't used to speaking and he couldn't find his thoughts on a certain subject. The leading elder at the time was sitting in the front row like a king sits on a thrown (doing his best Brother Lee impression probably) and he lifts up his arm like a king giving an edict, and goes "brother sit down." I was so pissed, my blood was boiling. That's not how you lead a church. That brother may never stand up to speak ever again as long as he lives. He may have left the church idk, I haven't seen him in years. He was just publicly embarassed, I felt so bad for him

At Bellevue a bunch of times the leading brother told people to sit down as well. He would also literally yell at the congregation in anger because there was too long of pauses between prophecies. If the pause was too long he'd stand up and chastise the congregation for taking too long and not standing up, like a father would yell at a child who broke something. Pretty reprehensible. That church was pretty dead spiritually and they were just going through the motions. You could tell there wasn't much enjoyment because of the strict atmosphere that that tyrant of an elder fostered. It was also like an abusive relationship. Like that brother had so much control over the church that everyone feared him and was trying not to get him mad or something

He was really arrogant when it came to his power over the church, but one time I called for the elders and asked them to pray over me due to an illness and all the elders were as timid as a deer in headlights when it came to actually helping me. They all three drove up to see me and kinda joked about laying hands on me and then just left without actually doing it. It was absolutely bizarre. They were really apt to exert negative control, but when it came to manifesting something positive spiritually they were basically rookies. And when it came to actually having a spirit of lowliness and loving a needy and suffering member they acted like teenagers. Just so shameful. Looking back it may have been that they didn't even believe I was sick. I remember my mom went and talked to one of the elders who came that day and he basically brushed her off and goes "all of that for just some anxiety." He thought my illness was all in my head. I can't understand how these type of brothers become elders, it just boggles my mind. It took me almost 15 years to figure out exactly what the problems were and why the churches in this region are so messed up. Which was horrible because I had a lot of personal problems and I needed shepherding and love badly. How can shepherding and love happen when a church is full of darkness from improper leadership? How can it happen when the church is basically Laodicea? It can't and it didn't and I suffered greatly for years because of it and even left that locality and never returned. I get the ick even thinking about it now and even then what I experienced from 2006-2010 probably isn't even half as bad as some other members have suffered elsewhere in different localities

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

Ron Reality Kangas also unmistakenly identified himself as one of the seven stars (Rev 1:16) in the Lord's right hand who is able to tell the churches exactly where they are in relation to this age and the coming one. He also emphatically stated that not any believer can be a star according to Rev 1:16 .... oh no, they must be co-workers in the Lord's Recovery - only those are the genuine messengers to the churches.

oh boy.

Do you have a link to him saying this?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by UnfilteredSkeptic

I pray that these fake apostles seize to exist, and this institution will be destroyed by God and found out for all to see. Benson Jr said during his papas funeral that these fake apostles will be “gone or incapacitated in 5 years”, let’s hope his prediction comes through, because I’m keeping count! Enough damage has already been done for 3 generations, and I hope and pray this plague will be gone from earth and people will be set free!

Benson Phillip's son said that? Is there a link to an audio or video of him saying it?

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

During message 12 of the December 23 Semi-Annual Training Ron Kangas stated:

"the enemy knows full well that in all the earth Christ can only be exhibited corporately in the recovered local churches."

Ron Reality Kangas also unmistakenly identified himself as one of the seven stars (Rev 1:16) in the Lord's right hand who is able to tell the churches exactly where they are in relation to this age and the coming one. He also emphatically stated that not any believer can be a star according to Rev 1:16 .... oh no, they must be co-workers in the Lord's Recovery - only those are the genuine messengers to the churches.

oh boy.

This... is pretty damning if true. Based on the kind of statements I've seen from Kangas and the other leading brothers before as well as predicting the natural progression of their insanity over time, I'm fully willing to believe that Ron Kangas would say something like this.

That being said, for the sake of being thorough, I would appreciate it if anyone could at any point in time provide a link to the audio of this conference. Heck, even if I have to pay LSM to get a copy of it, I will gladly dish out whatever the conference fee was if this is the kind of nonsense being spat out by its leaders.

I understand if it is not readily available now. I know that the Local Churches are quite religious about protecting their precious copyright, especially when it contains the weirder and more radical things that they say, but I earnestly implore anyone who knows how to access these videos to share something substantial with us.

Quotes of this nature, above all others, are the kind that need to be publicized for other members in The Lord's Recovery to see as well as those outside of The Lord's Recovery, and primary sources are ideal.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

This... is pretty damning if true. Based on the kind of statements I've seen from Kangas and the other leading brothers before as well as predicting the natural progression of their insanity over time, I'm fully willing to believe that Ron Kangas would say something like this.

That being said, for the sake of being thorough, I would appreciate it if anyone could at any point in time provide a link to the audio of this conference. Heck, even if I have to pay LSM to get a copy of it, I will gladly dish out whatever the conference fee was if this is the kind of nonsense being spat out by its leaders.

I understand if it is not readily available now. I know that the Local Churches are quite religious about protecting their precious copyright, especially when it contains the weirder and more radical things that they say, but I earnestly implore anyone who knows how to access these videos to share something substantial with us.

Quotes of this nature, above all others, are the kind that need to be publicized for other members in The Lord's Recovery to see as well as those outside of The Lord's Recovery, and primary sources are ideal.

https://shepherdingwords.com/twistin...kangass-words/

While not audio or video, this is the LSM defense/rebuttal of RK’s words. Link previously posted in case you missed it. They don’t don’t deny that he said it, but try to provide “context”. Does this help?

Nell

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Nell

https://shepherdingwords.com/twistin...kangass-words/

While not audio or video, this is the LSM defense/rebuttal of RK’s words. Link previously posted in case you missed it. They don’t don’t deny that he said it, but try to provide “context”. Does this help?

Nell

It doesn't mention anything about him calling himself one of the seven stars. so it doesn't help in that regard

Just funny to read this again and watch them flub all over themselves with silliness.....

When it is read in context, Brother Ron’s point in mentioning his wife in his message on Miriam was not to denigrate her but to illustrate that his role in serving the Lord as a co-worker does not bestow any status in the Lord’s work upon her. In saying this, he was warning leading brothers not to assume that their wives share in their role in the church, for this will cause damage both to their wives and to the church. This is equally true of husbands whose wives serve the ministry or the church in some capacity. Suppose a married sister serves in Living Stream Ministry (LSM). Her service gives her husband no standing to touch any matter related to LSM. Were he to presume otherwise and interfere with the service of LSM, he would likewise cause damage

They're basically just admitting that there's status and rank in the recovery here. But elsewhere they'll tell you that the recovery doesn't have anything to do with the clergy-laity. Oh really? Then why is there rank and status between common believers and speakers/coworkers/elders? Just silly that they assume we're that dumb

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Nell

https://shepherdingwords.com/twistin...kangass-words/

While not audio or video, this is the LSM defense/rebuttal of RK’s words. Link previously posted in case you missed it. They don’t don’t deny that he said it, but try to provide “context”. Does this help?

Nell

I've had an interest in dissecting their conferences since that is what they most jealously guard. I understand that even with access to this most recent conference, their defense will likely still be the same.

"You took it out of context."

It's amazing how they always say this, yet they always fail to provide textual, audio, or scriptural evidence to counter with what they believe is proper context. They just say you did it wrong and kind of stop there.

"Ok, then. Show me the context."

There have been instances where someone would say something was off about a message but not even say specifically what, but others would still respond with "you took it out of context."

Took what out of context? They haven't even specified the critique yet! This is just further proof that they throw out this phrase reflexively and really have no idea how to respond properly.

Regardless, I had a lot of fun taking apart the message given at their "Special Fellowship" at the July 2019 semiannual training, so I'm sure I'd enjoy doing the same for this most recent training, especially if what has been presented recently is the kind of nonsense that Ron Kangas is peddling.

Does no one see how stupid this all is? Am I going crazy here? It's absolutely ridiculous, but it's been that pattern since before I was even born.

It's sad to think that even if we were able to get everyone in The Lord's Recovery to see clearly... well, by that time there will be ten new groups that are just as bad if not worse.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I've had an interest in dissecting their conferences since that is what they most jealously guard. I understand that even with access to this most recent conference, their defense will likely still be the same.

"You took it out of context."

It's amazing how they always say this, yet they always fail to provide textual, audio, or scriptural evidence to counter with what they believe is proper context. They just say you did it wrong and kind of stop there.

"Ok, then. Show me the context."

There have been instances where someone would say something was off about a message but not even say specifically what, but others would still respond with "you took it out of context."

Took what out of context? They haven't even specified the critique yet! This is just further proof that they throw out this phrase reflexively and really have no idea how to respond properly.

Regardless, I had a lot of fun taking apart the message given at their "Special Fellowship" at the July 2019 semiannual training, so I'm sure I'd enjoy doing the same for this most recent training, especially if what has been presented recently is the kind of nonsense that Ron Kangas is peddling.

Does no one see how stupid this all is? Am I going crazy here? It's absolutely ridiculous, but it's been that pattern since before I was even born.

It's sad to think that even if we were able to get everyone in The Lord's Recovery to see clearly... well, by that time there will be ten new groups that are just as bad if not worse.

Then there’s no way to respond. No way to discuss anything, much less discuss “context.” IMHO there is no context that can justify speaking about half of the body the way RK did.

Imagine a “Shepherding Words Forum”….

Not holding my breath.

Nell

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Jay

I remember at a meeting in Renton around 2016 a brother stood up to speak and he was stammering and like pausing because he wasn't used to speaking and he couldn't find his thoughts on a certain subject. The leading elder at the time was sitting in the front row like a king sits on a thrown (doing his best Brother Lee impression probably) and he lifts up his arm like a king giving an edict, and goes "brother sit down." I was so pissed, my blood was boiling. That's not how you lead a church. That brother may never stand up to speak ever again as long as he lives. He may have left the church idk, I haven't seen him in years. He was just publicly embarassed, I felt so bad for him

At Bellevue a bunch of times the leading brother told people to sit down as well. He would also literally yell at the congregation in anger because there was too long of pauses between prophecies. If the pause was too long he'd stand up and chastise the congregation for taking too long and not standing up, like a father would yell at a child who broke something. Pretty reprehensible. That church was pretty dead spiritually and they were just going through the motions. You could tell there wasn't much enjoyment because of the strict atmosphere that that tyrant of an elder fostered. It was also like an abusive relationship. Like that brother had so much control over the church that everyone feared him and was trying not to get him mad or something

He was really arrogant when it came to his power over the church, but one time I called for the elders and asked them to pray over me due to an illness and all the elders were as timid as a deer in headlights when it came to actually helping me. They all three drove up to see me and kinda joked about laying hands on me and then just left without actually doing it. It was absolutely bizarre. They were really apt to exert negative control, but when it came to manifesting something positive spiritually they were basically rookies. And when it came to actually having a spirit of lowliness and loving a needy and suffering member they acted like teenagers. Just so shameful. Looking back it may have been that they didn't even believe I was sick. I remember my mom went and talked to one of the elders who came that day and he basically brushed her off and goes "all of that for just some anxiety." He thought my illness was all in my head. I can't understand how these type of brothers become elders, it just boggles my mind. It took me almost 15 years to figure out exactly what the problems were and why the churches in this region are so messed up. Which was horrible because I had a lot of personal problems and I needed shepherding and love badly. How can shepherding and love happen when a church is full of darkness from improper leadership? How can it happen when the church is basically Laodicea? It can't and it didn't and I suffered greatly for years because of it and even left that locality and never returned. I get the ick even thinking about it now and even then what I experienced from 2006-2010 probably isn't even half as bad as some other members have suffered elsewhere in different localities

When I was meeting with Renton, the lead elder has since passed. He was the most capable in regard to being personable. The ones as found at https://secure.dor.wa.gov/gteunauth/_/#2 struck me as being loyal, but without capacity.
In Bellevue, I see times have not changed the past 25-30 years. It was the same way in the 90's. Gaps in prophesying. Same people prophesying. Brother Sherman would get tired of it always being the same and would ask for a new voice. Well, the brothers don't want to hear this and never have, but the Holy Word for Monring Revival produced a clergy/laity system.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I've had an interest in dissecting their conferences since that is what they most jealously guard. I understand that even with access to this most recent conference, their defense will likely still be the same.

"You took it out of context."

It's amazing how they always say this, yet they always fail to provide textual, audio, or scriptural evidence to counter with what they believe is proper context. They just say you did it wrong and kind of stop there.

"Ok, then. Show me the context."

There have been instances where someone would say something was off about a message but not even say specifically what, but others would still respond with "you took it out of context."

Took what out of context? They haven't even specified the critique yet! This is just further proof that they throw out this phrase reflexively and really have no idea how to respond properly.

Regardless, I had a lot of fun taking apart the message given at their "Special Fellowship" at the July 2019 semiannual training, so I'm sure I'd enjoy doing the same for this most recent training, especially if what has been presented recently is the kind of nonsense that Ron Kangas is peddling.

Does no one see how stupid this all is? Am I going crazy here? It's absolutely ridiculous, but it's been that pattern since before I was even born.

It's sad to think that even if we were able to get everyone in The Lord's Recovery to see clearly... well, by that time there will be ten new groups that are just as bad if not worse.

The same applies when you or I use early Lee to critique "The Lords' Recovery". It's either you're using the ministry to attack the ministry or you're taking out of context.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

When I was meeting with Renton, the lead elder has since passed. He was the most capable in regard to being personable. The ones as found at https://secure.dor.wa.gov/gteunauth/_/#2 struck me as being loyal, but without capacity.
In Bellevue, I see times have not changed the past 25-30 years. It was the same way in the 90's. Gaps in prophesying. Same people prophesying. Brother Sherman would get tired of it always being the same and would ask for a new voice. Well, the brothers don't want to hear this and never have, but the Holy Word for Monring Revival produced a clergy/laity system.

Yep basically. Bilheimer passed away and the elder brothers there who SHOULD have taken the lead actually deferred responsibilities to three young brothers in their early 40's, one of whom has recently moved to Virginia beach. But they absolutely are way too young to be in that position and they absolutely lack the humanity, the broadness of heart, and the experience of life and just life experience in general to be in that positions and it shows. They're very loyal like you said, and have much fealty for the recovery. But they just don't have the maturity to lead a congregation with much personal impact. They certainly do their jobs as far as like standing up and closing the meetings and giving announcements, but they sit in the front row like kings and it's very annoying. Spokane wasn't like that. The elders there were very laid back and they just let the congregation function. The spirit was so palpable and prevailing in Spokane that if there was a clergy there you just didn't notice it. At least it wasn't controlling like it is in Western Washington. Which I loved about that locality. In Renton you can see their control over the congregation, and it absolutely looks like clergy-laity. But I don't think really anyone notices or can really tell because they're ignorant. Even the young leading brothers are kind of in the dark about their control......or maybe they like it idk. It's very easy to revel in your position and accomplishments and for me it really just kills the atmosphere to a great degree. Maybe I need to take the cross idk, but I have never really liked the concept of authority over others and they seem to revel in it. One of them is like a real "Dudley do right" type and he comes across so phoney and fake, and he actually really is when I got into certain experiences with him recently. You know how when you're talking to someone and you can just tell that person thinks they're better than you. Yeah, his true colors showed forth. Very people pleaser type of disposition also, but it's all lip service. Very little ability to be real and reach people

But in general I just wish the clergy-laity crap would go away and the function of the body would come out. Renton was much closer to Spokane in that regard than Bellevue or Seattle, but you can still easily see the clergy there in Renton. Which to me.....idk, it's kind of a form of Laodicea. There's actually four older brothers in Renton that are in their late 60's and 70's who DO have the growth in life to lead and should, but they deferred the responsibilities to these younger brothers. Actually one of those four kind of unofficially acts like an elder and spends more time in that capacity, and even he acts a little weird, although I like him somewhat. I felt a little bit of his wife thinking she was in an honored position because he is one of the co-founders of that locality. I can always tell when an elder's wife revels in her husbands supposed authority. That's female nature for you, but anyway it exposes a lot sometimes and you can tell

But I will say that at least in Renton the general pursuit of the enjoyment of Christ is more genuine than in Bellevue. Bellevue was pretty bad as far as really enjoying the spirit and enjoying the Lord. It was a very stunted locality in that sense. But even Renton has a kind of veneer about it, that is akin to a stage performance. I've thought a lot about it over the years, and one conclusion I've come to is that the people east of the Cascades are liberals and liberals tend to be very phoney and pretentious people, and I think a lot of that seeps into the church culture. Another conclusion is that a congregation often reflects its leaders and as I said before there's a lot of kind of fake leadership there, and the administration is just far too young

[Ohio]

Jay, I know this may be hard for you to accept, but the problem is NOT that there is a “clergy-laity system” in the meetings, but that those in the lead are abusive, and lack love and maturity. As the Bible says, they “lord it over” the flock. As the O.T. Prophets often said, they are worthless shepherds. They were selected, not because they possessed the qualifications prescribed in scripture, but because of loyalty to “the ministry” at LSM. They are not faithful and obedient to the Lord and His word, but to WL, his Blendeds, and their “up-to-date” books. Ha!

Not recognizing who are the legitimate elders in the church meetings is like walking into a home and not recognizing who are the parents.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jay

But in general I just wish the clergy-laity crap would go away and the function of the body would come out. Renton was much closer to Spokane in that regard than Bellevue or Seattle, but you can still easily see the clergy there in Renton. Which to me.....idk, it's kind of a form of Laodicea. There's actually four older brothers in Renton that are in their late 60's and 70's who DO have the growth in life to lead and should, but they deferred the responsibilities to these younger brothers. Actually one of those four kind of unofficially acts like an elder and spends more time in that capacity, and even he acts a little weird, although I like him somewhat. I felt a little bit of his wife thinking she was in an honored position because he is one of the co-founders of that locality. I can always tell when an elder's wife revels in her husbands supposed authority. That's female nature for you, but anyway it exposes a lot sometimes and you can tell.

Reminded me of the time I was visiting one church years ago - not LC. One sister introduced herself casually as, “Oh, I’m Andy’s wife.” I remember thinking to myself, “I guess everybody knows Andy except me.” So I went ahead and expressed my naivety as a new guest with a smile, “so, who is this Andy?”

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not recognizing who are the legitimate elders in the church meetings is like walking into a home and not recognizing who are the parents.

solid point. as I said in my last post there are four older brothers there who in my view are obviously the elders because they have the growth in life. however they decided to defer the responsibility to these young gung ho guys. could that be laziness? or maybe they're too old? but the fact is that these young guys are NOT qualified, I've seen and experienced their lack. they are full of energy and full of zeal for the most part, but they don't have the growth of Christ, the maturity, and the experience to really help. I suppose you could call them leaders in that they outwardly pursue righteousness I suppose. but as far as being genuine elders and shepherds, no I don't see it

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Jay, I know this may be hard for you to accept, but the problem is NOT that there is a “clergy-laity system” in the meetings, but that those in the lead are abusive, and lack love and maturity. As the Bible says, they “lord it over” the flock. As the O.T. Prophets often said, they are worthless shepherds. They were selected, not because they possessed the qualifications prescribed in scripture, but because of loyalty to “the ministry” at LSM. They are not faithful and obedient to the Lord and His word, but to WL, his Blendeds, and their “up-to-date” books. Ha!

could be. this is a theory that I don't have a great deal of experience in, however some things happened with these young brothers in Renton recently and I've seen another side to the church and coming to this website and reading this type of information and ex members sharing their experiences about this is painting a picture of what you're talking about. I came up against these young brothers "authority" recently in a decision they made involving not helping a needy member and I think they were totally wrong in doing so, but when an appeal was made to them they just ignored and deflected. which is similar to what the blendeds did when confronted with the truth about how brother Lee was damaging the body by protecting his son and his whole fraudulent business scandal. they pull the authority card when it suits and benefits their agenda. and to me that's not Christ at all. so I'm seeing another side of the church life that I don't think is right. but it's also a side that I don't think many average members know about because so much of what they do is hidden and behind closed doors where they make decisions for the church without the church even knowing what's going on. it seems they do this on purpose. which to me is really clergy like. they have an attitude like they're the higher ranking ones and we all are not even bright enough to see what's going on. or like an attitude of "we know what's best for you." a kind of assumed arrogance. it's off putting to say the least

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Jay

could be. this is a theory that I don't have a great deal of experience in, however some things happened with these young brothers in Renton recently and I've seen another side to the church and coming to this website and reading this type of information and ex members sharing their experiences about this is painting a picture of what you're talking about. I came up against these young brothers "authority" recently in a decision they made involving not helping a needy member and I think they were totally wrong in doing so, but when an appeal was made to them they just ignored and deflected.

When it comes to the local churches it's hard not to quote James 2 or any part of James. Same would apply to Proverbs.

Janes 2:15-16
Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

Jay, when I read your post the brothers attitude seems to exhibit James 2:15-16.
Just turn to your spirit brother and call on the Lord three times. Pardon me if I appear I'm being sarcastic. The is real. At one time in my life, I've been given the same sort of advice when it comes to dealing with life problems.
You get where's I'm going here. Instead of brothers exhibiting humanity of Christ, they choose to take the approach a type of "kicking a can down the street".

[TLFisher]

Yep basically. Bilheimer passed away and the elder brothers there who SHOULD have taken the lead actually deferred responsibilities to three young brothers in their early 40's, one of whom has recently moved to Virginia beach. But they absolutely are way too young to be in that position and they absolutely lack the humanity, the broadness of heart, and the experience of life and just life experience in general to be in that positions and it shows.

Whatever happened to GF or BS? I thought they were elders as well or at least were when I was there along with Jim. It was Jim along with BS who came to my home before I began meeting with the Church in Renton. Basically saying "we love brother Steve, but if you don't make Steve Isitt an issue, you're welcome" to attend. No never would have made Steve an issue and never did.
I recall one Renton home meeting several older brothers were speaking among themselves and the topic of their conversation was Daystar. How interesting to be in proximity to have heard that.

In Renton you can see their control over the congregation, and it absolutely looks like clergy-laity. But I don't think really anyone notices or can really tell because they're ignorant. Even the young leading brothers are kind of in the dark about their control......or maybe they like it idk. It's very easy to revel in your position and accomplishments and for me it really just kills the atmosphere to a great degree. Maybe I need to take the cross idk, but I have never really liked the concept of authority over others and they seem to revel in it. One of them is like a real "Dudley do right" type and he comes across so phoney and fake, and he actually really is when I got into certain experiences with him recently. You know how when you're talking to someone and you can just tell that person thinks they're better than you.

I can see that more from IF than from MS. I sensed more humility from MS than IF. Observation from my experiences. Yet each I considered lacking maturity in life. Maybe it's just me, but a brother who passes through the Full Time training is fast-tracked to being an elder. When I was in Bellevue, I knew Jim Bilheimer and GF. It was only logical years later when they were elders in Renton. Being loyal brothers from 20-25 years. Same goes for BS who was in Seattle prior to Renton.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

Whatever happened to GF or BS? I thought they were elders as well or at least were when I was there along with Jim. It was Jim along with BS who came to my home before I began meeting with the Church in Renton. Basically saying "we love brother Steve, but if you don't make Steve Isitt an issue, you're welcome" to attend. No never would have made Steve an issue and never did.
I recall one Renton home meeting several older brothers were speaking among themselves and the topic of their conversation was Daystar. How interesting to be in proximity to have heard that.


I can see that more from IF than from MS. I sensed more humility from MS than IF. Observation from my experiences. Yet each I considered lacking maturity in life. Maybe it's just me, but a brother who passes through the Full Time training is fast-tracked to being an elder. When I was in Bellevue, I knew Jim Bilheimer and GF. It was only logical years later when they were elders in Renton. Being loyal brothers from 20-25 years. Same goes for BS who was in Seattle prior to Renton.

Yes GF, BS, IF, MS, are all the brothers I'm talking about here. BS is the brother who acts retired but still does a lot of elder functions and probably seems to be the "lead elder" there even though he is unofficial, where IF and MS are official. I need to be careful what I say because I don't just want to bash them, but these are the ones I'm talking about. I'm seeing that all of these elders and responsible ones are kind of in a little clique together in this area which includes the big up brothers from Bellevue and Seattle and probably Tacoma as well

These older ones all were at that brothers meeting in Bellevue (in 2007-2008) when SR was the main speaker and he was bashing Steve Isitt and his son Jarod. Jarod had recently got divorced and he was visiting Bellevue from Pullman because his job needed him in that area and he was still going on in the church life at that time (I don't know where he is now). And SR was really pissed that Jarod was meeting with his locality and was "rallying the troops" to potentially not allow it to happen. It did happen though. They never told Jarod he couldn't meet with them, but I feel like they almost did. The entire meeting was just SR bashing and bashing and it was wild. Like a KKK rally or something. I was pretty bewildered at such a display as that. That meeting was very uncanny to me because it exposed a side of the church I had never seen before nor care to ever again. And I was young witnessing it so I didn't know if it was standard behavior or not, but at the time it seemed horribly off. Eventually I realized that the leading ones, at least in this area, act very different in their private meetings than they do around the congregation. That exposed a lot for me and now that I'm older I'm able to figure out a lot of things that were previously a mystery to me about the church in general and about this region. Things I definitely do not like regarding the leadership

Now I ran up against the young elders mentioned here. And yes those are the ones I'm talking about. I need to be careful in what I say, but I would ultimately agree with Ohio's sentiments in this thread about how and why they're chosen to be in the position they're in. I will say that recently I called them out on their behavior and I was met with crickets. Which seems to be common when a leading one is called out on their behavior in the LC. No apology, no restitution, no repentance, just silence. Apparently they believe they're in a position above reproach and or this is how they're trained to react when they're called on the carpet. Not because their behavior is above reproach, but because their position is above reproach. Which doesn't sit right with me and isn't biblical. No doubt they view my calling them out as "criticism," or even view it as some kind of persecution, but I view it as accountability. If you're in a position of leadership you need to behave accordingly, and "taking the cross" and being silent when erroneous leadership behavior is taking place is akin to being an accomplice, or it's just being a victim. If there's no checks and balances for leaders then they can do whatever and walk around like they're in a higher position than others and this is exactly what I've seen in Puget sound with the leadership since I moved here. A lot of elitist type behavior with most of these brothers. Some of the older ones aren't so bad, but if you catch them from the right angle you can see it. The younger ones are much worse. And no doubt they feel pressure from the others in the clique in various ways. I don't know a whole lot about that because I'm not frequently in their inner circles like that, but I know they ARE an inner circle, and I feel like I've caught glimpses of them having a kind of inner clique culture amongst themselves. A culture that is not how they behave around the congregation, which leads me to believe they view themselves not as common believers, but believers in a more privileged position. Almost like celebrities in the recovery. None of that sits right with me for various reasons. Generally in my life I've always had a keen sense to sniff out phoney things and scenarios were people are abusing power and misrepresenting authority. I do see that in certain ways and certain extents here in this region. And I've seen common members treat these leaders as if they're celebrities and special. Well 1 Timothy 5:17 says elders who rule well should be given 'double honor.' But that's IF the elder rules well. That's not a given, and these elders act like it's a given and it's an inherently privileged position that they're in and they protect that position. Again, this behavior doesn't sit right with me. Furthermore if you read the footnote on 1 Timothy 5:17 brother Lee says that the type of 'double honor' here is with an emphasis on material supply-

1 Timothy 5:17 1 honor
The noun form of honor in v. 3. According to v. 18, the emphasis here is on material supply (Rcv)

So it's questionable what type of honor they should be given anyways. It doesn't say give them honor like they're celebrities and can do no wrong. I see a type of fleshly reverence often for these "uplifted" brothers amongst the congregation and it doesn't sit right. I saw it with Bilheimer too unfortunately. And invariably these brothers start to walk around like kings. Again, some of these brothers I personally like and I've been to their homes, I've been out to eat with them, I've sat and talked with some of them, and some of them have been to my home. So it's not any type of vendetta I have or anything like that against them. It's solely regarding accountability on bad behavior. And if this behavior is a type of clergy elitism then I can't endorse it as being healthy for the church

Is it systemic? Is it in every region? Some on this site would say yes, I ultimately don't know because I haven't been around everywhere. I just know that in Spokane the leadership was very innocuous and laid back and didn't seem to want to lord anything over anyone. I feel it's different here. It's very clergy-esque and elitist. I believe they view themselves in a higher position than others and it doesn't sit right with me. I believe it's harming the church and particularly the function of the one talented members, which stymies the building up of the corporate body. This is probably why I feel like the expression of the spirit and the corporate growth in life is stifled. But there's nothing you can do because once they're in that position it's a wrap for life. They generally hold that position for life, even though I've heard that that position and function is not necessarily supposed to be for life. Kind of like congress I suppose. I've heard that if an elder is not acting right they can and maybe should lose their position. But that's not really what happens. They protect each other and protect their clique of leaders, similar to the papal system. All of this I believe is wrong and not transparent. Do these brothers realize that their behavior could be directly impeding the building up of the bride, which ultimately would delay the Lord's return?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Jay

Now I ran up against the young elders mentioned here. And yes those are the ones I'm talking about.

It comes back to brothers believing they are God's deputy authorities which may explain the pride, assuming to be above reproach, and apparent exemption to accountability.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jay

Is it systemic? Is it in every region? Some on this site would say yes, I ultimately don't know because I haven't been around everywhere. I just know that in Spokane the leadership was very innocuous and laid back and didn't seem to want to lord anything over anyone.

Some of this is just naturally geographic. Spokane is remote, and the leaders are not regularly together with the western metropolitan club of elites. Access to the top became quite corrupting to some. That’s just our fallen nature disguised as spirituality. I learned that in high school. Some guys were “in,” some guys betrayed others to be “in.” I call them “risers,” always looking to improve their status using access. Basic politics here. I was never “in,” so I never even tried. This was never so visible as when storms blew thru the Recovery. Who were you with? Which side are you on?

Let me use our forebears the Exclusive Plymouth Brethren as an example. I really think my study of them helped reveal what some couldn’t perceive. Theirs was a history of storms, purges, and divisions. None of which was ever legitimate or actually scriptural. Actually just struggles for power. Picture a rotating spit of lamb for Greek gyros which I love, being constantly carved. That was their history.

Each “carving” removed those who put the Lord first, put the Bible first, put love first, or those who simply hesitated to “despise” the one(s) being ejected. E.g. decades after George Muller was expelled, new members who never even heard of GM, were forced to sign on to JND’s condemnations of him. Sounds a little like how Ingalls, or even Isitt, has been treated. As time went on almost 2 centuries now, those who have remained after numerous purges on that revolving spit have become more strange, mean-spirited, narrow-minded, legalistic than ever. They became more known for their unending list of unwritten rules, crazy interpretations of obscure texts in scripture, and weird esoteric knowledge, all which puffs up. They are so exclusive and elite, they are simply unapproachable.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Let me use our forebears the Exclusive Plymouth Brethren as an example. I really think my study of them helped reveal what some couldn’t perceive. Theirs was a history of storms, purges, and divisions. None of which was ever legitimate or actually scriptural. Actually just struggles for power. Picture a rotating spit of lamb for Greek gyros which I love, being constantly carved. That was their history.

Each “carving” removed those who put the Lord first, put the Bible first, put love first, or those who simply hesitated to “despise” the one(s) being ejected. E.g. decades after George Muller was expelled, new members who never even heard of GM, were forced to sign on to JND’s condemnations of him. Sounds a little like how Ingalls, or even Isitt, has been treated. As time went on almost 2 centuries now, those who have remained after numerous purges on that revolving spit have become more strange, mean-spirited, narrow-minded, legalistic than ever. They became more known for their unending list of unwritten rules, crazy interpretations of obscure texts in scripture, and weird esoteric knowledge, all which puffs up. They are so exclusive and elite, they are simply unapproachable.

3 John 9-10
"I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will not welcome us. So when I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, spreading malicious nonsense about us. Not satisfied with that, he even refuses to welcome other believers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church."

Many of us while we were in the local churches wanted to be receiving as apostle John was and did not want to be afflicted with types of Diotrophes.
Little did we know the LC leadership were types of Diotrophes deciding who can or cannot be received.

[Sunshine]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Is this from the December 2023 semi-annual training? I haven't been able to find it online yet, but if I ever do, I'm grateful to have those timestamps.



It's interesting to hear that they are really starting to openly push for a new Minister of the Age. I'm not surprised at all that Ron Kangas is the prime candidate right now. Do we know where/how we can access some audio/video of this conference/training?

I know they've posted some audio clips from their trainings before like the one where they took a huge dump on Jo Casteel.

It'd be nice to be able to hear it from Kangas himself.

It is now available (at least the audio recording) on their website www.lsmwebcast.com. They charge $1 US per audio message.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Flybynight

Not that it should really matter, it happens that this insult was flung towards the second wife who happens to be of Asian descent. I doubt Ron would have hurled out such a condescending thing to his first wife Susan. From what I know, she was a real tiger and she would publicly humiliated him in an instant!

Well, we do have evidence that Ron insulted Susan publicly in 2010.

Here's what Ron had to say regarding his precious first wife:

"For some, especially op-posers - I feel I have something to say to them. Others, I'd rather refer you to my wife; she will cut you to pieces. She will touch parts of your being that you don't even know you have! How do I know? Ha ha ha ha ha."

Here's the original audio: link#1

And since Ron has revealed himself in that recording to also be a sadist - someone who enjoys seeing other people suffer harm, here's a bonus recording where Ron's words help people to better understand the German word "Schadenfreude": link#2

This man sounds to me a lot like his spiritual Daddy - an abuser of women and a hater of anyone who refuses to bow down before MOTA...

P.S.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Some of this is just naturally geographic. Spokane is remote, and the leaders are not regularly together with the western metropolitan club of elites. Access to the top became quite corrupting to some. That’s just our fallen nature disguised as spirituality. I learned that in high school. Some guys were “in,” some guys betrayed others to be “in.” I call them “risers,” always looking to improve their status using access. Basic politics here. I was never “in,” so I never even tried. This was never so visible as when storms blew thru the Recovery. Who were you with? Which side are you on?

Let me use our forebears the Exclusive Plymouth Brethren as an example. I really think my study of them helped reveal what some couldn’t perceive. Theirs was a history of storms, purges, and divisions. None of which was ever legitimate or actually scriptural. Actually just struggles for power. Picture a rotating spit of lamb for Greek gyros which I love, being constantly carved. That was their history.

Each “carving” removed those who put the Lord first, put the Bible first, put love first, or those who simply hesitated to “despise” the one(s) being ejected. E.g. decades after George Muller was expelled, new members who never even heard of GM, were forced to sign on to JND’s condemnations of him. Sounds a little like how Ingalls, or even Isitt, has been treated. As time went on almost 2 centuries now, those who have remained after numerous purges on that revolving spit have become more strange, mean-spirited, narrow-minded, legalistic than ever. They became more known for their unending list of unwritten rules, crazy interpretations of obscure texts in scripture, and weird esoteric knowledge, all which puffs up. They are so exclusive and elite, they are simply unapproachable.

I've heard it being described as social climbing. But good points yeah. I've seen this in the Western Washington region. We had a new transplant brother from the church in Los Angeles or somewhere down there in Socal and pretty quickly he became a part of the service in Renton, and it was just kinda odd to see it happen that fast. And I kinda realized that it was like a political rank thing and he was climbing it. He was doing his best to get a position but in a subtle way. Type of thing where every meeting he would sit in the front row and be sure to be vocal, even if it was forced. He would dress like the leaders (white dress shirt, tie, black suit as usual). And he quickly was making friends with the leaders but wouldn't be so friendly with others, especially ones he felt maybe couldn't do anything for him. I've never been attracted to that kind of thing my whole life. That type of Hollywood fake social climbing and brown nosing. Always turned me off. But there's a lot of brothers in this region who you can tell are ambitious for position and they're trying to be in one of the ranks. It just seems so off. Particularly after how much Lee talked against ambition. But it's there and they do it and if you're not someone they feel can help them they don't regard you as much. Has nothing to do with Christ or the spirit or life or love or fellowship. It's just all about church life culture glory. Pretty sad