What is God's Economy?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Greetings, Jay.

It seems I was in luck. I had already prepared a short bible-study some time ago regarding calling on the name of the Lord. I refined it a bit in order to present it to you.

Here is a link to my study.

It has been uploaded as a word document on the site.

You make some good points, and he makes some good points. Neither are fully correct. Balance and nuance is necessary. I believe Lee is wrong to say "we don't need doctrines" because the Bible is just chock full of doctrine

You are wrong for implying that calling on the Lord is erroneous. It's clearly not

He is right in saying that exercising the spirit is a wonderful way to "open the window" to contact God, and I am happy to hear him say something along the lines of "what if we just called on the Lord for two hours." That would be lovely. Exercising the spirit is a wonderful way to contact God, and we can do that by calling on the name of the Lord. Wonderful, correct, and one of the best habits a believer can practice. Does that mean we throw out doctrine? Nope! He's wrong for saying that and imbalanced

So if his teachings are not balanced then it lends to extremism and we have seen the fruit of extremism in the LC. Of which I don't agree with. But, we can't throw the baby out with the bath water

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Jay

You are wrong for implying that calling on the Lord is erroneous. It's clearly not

Bzzzt.

This is an incorrect assessment of what was actually written. The premise of your statement is false. You need to drop that habit of putting words in the mouths of others, especially when the text is right in front of us for all to see.

I never said calling on the Lord is erroneous, nor did I imply it. I very explicitly stated that calling on the Lord is crucial and serves several purposes such as calling for the sake of salvation and for the sake of intercession. What is also implied based on the verses I provided is that calling on the Lord also serves the purpose of praising and glorifying the Lord. What fool would say that calling on the Lord is wrong? Only the greatest.

Never did I imply that calling on the Lord is erroneous. What I did was I very explicitly stated that Lee's interpretation of calling on the Lord, which consists of repetitiously calling in a chant-like fashion for prolonged periods of time in order to stir ourselves up, is not scripturally sound and that in addition to there being no scriptural support for the very specific and detailed practice that Witness Lee refers to as "calling," there is a subtle but serious danger to the Lord's people and his church if such a practice is utilized in our personal lives and in the assembly. Vain repetitions do the Lord and his people no good.

To put it as simply as possible: what Witness Lee refers to as "calling on the Lord" is not what the scriptures refer to as "calling on the Lord."

They are two different things that are very thoroughly incompatible with one another.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Bzzzt.

This is an incorrect assessment of what was actually written. The premise of your statement is false. You need to drop that habit of putting words in the mouths of others, especially when the text is right in front of us for all to see.

I never said calling on the Lord is erroneous, nor did I imply it. I very explicitly stated that calling on the Lord is crucial and serves several purposes such as calling for the sake of salvation and for the sake of intercession. What is also implied based on the verses I provided is that calling on the Lord also serves the purpose of praising and glorifying the Lord. What fool would say that calling on the Lord is wrong? Only the greatest.

Never did I imply that calling on the Lord is erroneous. What I did was I very explicitly stated that Lee's interpretation of calling on the Lord, which consists of repetitiously calling in a chant-like fashion for prolonged periods of time in order to stir ourselves up, is not scripturally sound and that in addition to there being no scriptural support for the very specific and detailed practice that Witness Lee refers to as "calling," there is a subtle but serious danger to the Lord's people and his church if such a practice is utilized in our personal lives and in the assembly. Vain repetitions do the Lord and his people no good.

To put it as simply as possible: what Witness Lee refers to as "calling on the Lord" is not what the scriptures refer to as "calling on the Lord."

They are two different things that are very thoroughly incompatible with one another.

In the book of Acts when Paul was persecuting the Christians, he identified them by hearing their calling on the Lord in their houses. How would he be able to do that if they weren't calling over and over? Doesn't seem logical

At any rate, you can dissect and break it down any way you like, it doesn't and won't ever erase millions of people's experience practicing it. Sorry, we tried it, we liked it, we practice it. You're certainly welcome to attack and cry about it though.....

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Jay

In the book of Acts when Paul was persecuting the Christians, he identified them by hearing their calling on the Lord in their houses. How would he be able to do that if they weren't calling over and over? Doesn't seem logical

Wait a minute. So even though the Bible plainly shows in 1 Kings 18 what calling on the name of the Lord is (it's not calling over and over) and even though the Bible condemns vain repetitions (which is calling over and over), you would still stick with calling over and over, even though it's what the Bible condemns and never teaches?

From your post above, you make it clear that your experience trumps the Bible even when your experience is in direct contradiction to it. Why bother with the Bible at all?

Those in the local church have every right to practice however they want. But if the local church is going to teach that "OHHHH LORD JESUUUUUS! OHHHH LORRRRD JEEEESUUUUSS! OHHH LORRRD JESUUUUS!" is what is meant in the Bible by "calling on the Lord", then people outside the local church are going to call out that error.

Originally Posted by Jay

At any rate, you can dissect and break it down any way you like, it doesn't and won't ever erase millions of people's experience practicing it. Sorry, we tried it, we liked it, we practice it. You're certainly welcome to attack and cry about it though.....

It's a classic marker of a cult to consider disagreement and clear presentation of errors "attacks". I can't even comprehend hearing the truth of the Bible and considering it an attack!! Is that really the position you want to take?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Wait a minute. So even though the Bible plainly shows in 1 Kings 18 what calling on the name of the Lord is (it's not calling over and over) and even though the Bible condemns vain repetitions (which is calling over and over), you would still stick with calling over and over, even though it's what the Bible condemns and never teaches?

From your post above, you make it clear that your experience trumps the Bible even when your experience is in direct contradiction to it. Why bother with the Bible at all?

Those in the local church have every right to practice however they want. But if the local church is going to teach that "OHHHH LORD JESUUUUUS! OHHHH LORRRRD JEEEESUUUUSS! OHHH LORRRD JESUUUUS!" is what is meant in the Bible by "calling on the Lord", then people outside the local church are going to call out that error.



It's a classic marker of a cult to consider disagreement and clear presentation of errors "attacks". I can't even comprehend hearing the truth of the Bible and considering it an attack!! Is that really the position you want to take?

How are you not attacking though? You're just bashing. Which is whatever I guess. If you've been hurt it's understandable. But at least have some solid points in your attacks. Some of the stuff you all say I agree with, but if I don't agree then you just bash me. That's pretty weak honestly. You can't be objective and classy? You can't be mature? It's almost like you're a hate group with no other goal but to hate, even if what you're saying isn't viable. At least make sense. If it makes sense to you then fine, but if I disagree with it objectively then you attack me. That's silliness. Have you lost all your rationality?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Jay

How are you not attacking though? You're just bashing. Which is whatever I guess. If you've been hurt it's understandable. But at least have some solid points in your attacks. Some of the stuff you all say I agree with, but if I don't agree then you just bash me. That's pretty weak honestly. You can't be objective and classy? You can't be mature? It's almost like you're a hate group with no other goal but to hate, even if what you're saying isn't viable. At least make sense. If it makes sense to you then fine, but if I disagree with it objectively then you attack me. That's silliness. Have you lost all your rationality?

I'm not aware of a post where I, Trapped, have bashed you, Jay. Can you give me an example? If so, I am happy to apologize. Generally I try to make it a point to deal with the teachings and arguments, rather than bash people, but I might have gone too far somewhere. Let me know.

However, if you mean to say that you disagreed with ACuriousFellow's link/document about calling on the Lord, and that you consider my response to you a bashing, what part of it is bashing? I'm genuinely confused by your response where you seem to disregard what it is the Bible clearly says, and so I asked if that is really what you are doing. And I'm genuinely confused by your lifting your experience over the Bible even when it contradicts the Bible. I'm genuinely confused that you consider hearing what the Bible teaches "an attack". As a Christian, who by definition is one who is supposed to hold to the Word of God, if the Word of God gets disregarded, what's the point?

I did ask you several clarifying questions, though, which you did not respond to in favor of saying what you said above. My questions were serious ones, and concerned ones, not bashing ones. If you want to answer those questions and explain further what you meant, I'm listening.

Trapped

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I'm not aware of a post where I, Trapped, have bashed you, Jay. Can you give me an example? If so, I am happy to apologize. Generally I try to make it a point to deal with the teachings and arguments, rather than bash people, but I might have gone too far somewhere. Let me know.

However, if you mean to say that you disagreed with ACuriousFellow's link/document about calling on the Lord, and that you consider my response to you a bashing, what part of it is bashing? I'm genuinely confused by your response where you seem to disregard what it is the Bible clearly says, and so I asked if that is really what you are doing. And I'm genuinely confused by your lifting your experience over the Bible even when it contradicts the Bible. I'm genuinely confused that you consider hearing what the Bible teaches "an attack". As a Christian, who by definition is one who is supposed to hold to the Word of God, if the Word of God gets disregarded, what's the point?

I did ask you several clarifying questions, though, which you did not respond to in favor of saying what you said above. My questions were serious ones, and concerned ones, not bashing ones. If you want to answer those questions and explain further what you meant, I'm listening.

Trapped

Also it's funny to note that you guys are contradicting yourselves. Earlier someone was saying that the LC is not the only place where they practice calling on the Lord. But now you're claiming that calling on the Lord is a cult practice lol. So are you saying that the LC is not the only "cult" to call on the Lord? That anyone who calls on the Lord is practicing cult behavior?

But then you'll say "oh no it's HOWWWW they do it." Dude you're just bashing because you hate the LC. It's fine, but it would be better if you just admitted it instead of going around in circles contradicting yourselves. I'd bet that if another church that wasn't the LC chanted "ohhhh Lorrrdd Jessssuusss" you would have no issue with it because you're selectively outraged aren't you lol

I'm sure you think that I'm bashing you right now huh? lol, now YOU'RE the victims aren't you? lol. Pretty soon that's what it'll turn into. You accuse others of the very behavior you exhibit. I love it dude, good stuff. Just move the goalposts whenever it benefits you and your angle