I'm a student in the FTT - AMA

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

It had to do with words Witness Lee spoke in one of the 1986 elders training meetings. Something to the effect of "if you're not here for me and my ministry, then you might as well not be here". The two elders from Moses Lake walked out on that.
Speaking of autonomy, in my few visits to Spokane in the mid-90's the local church there seemed far more autonomous than my experiences in Bellevue, Seattle, Portland, and Bellingham to name a few.
My take from correspondence with Ken Sandburg, the Church in Moses Lake was open to fellowship with other local churches. Local churches in Washington state were not open to fellowship with Moses Lake.
In my time meeting in Bellevue, when I asked an elder about the Church in Moses Lake, I was told they're a rebel church. I knew more than a few that came from the Church in Moses Lake.

My family moved to Spokane around 1990 (we were basically churchless for three years or so after Moses Lake cut off from Lee, and my father stood up in a meeting and said it was the wrong thing to do and our family got attacked by the members who were ok with the dissent. a few other families had the same experience as us and ultimately moved away from ML), and I spent a couple years as a child in Spokane LC. But I stopped going after my parents split up in 1995, and I was out in the world from that time to around 2003 when I moved to Bellevue and sort of started meeting there, and then ultimately moved back to Spokane from 2004-2006ish. I absolutely adore Spokane, both the city and the people there as well as the local church there. They had so much Christ when I was with them. They had the spirit and the shepherding and just everything at that time. They did have problems in the 90's that I somehow missed. They were acting culty and exclusive over how people dressed and they confronted some members about wearing jeans and one family I knew got so offended by that that they stopped meeting. It was pretty sad. But they just wanted to stay away from the world so they would act weird when people dressed worldly. Anyway it wasn't really like that in 2004 when I met with them. I guess they grew out of it, but they had so much life and the spirit when I was with them and I never wanted to leave

Unfortunately I did have to leave and moved back to Bellevue area. And it was a crappy experience because I just felt like Bellevue had no life, and they had no spirit. They were going through the motions but it was just a dead or dormant atmosphere as far as the enjoyment of Christ. It was a different type of church culture. Kind of elitist and judgmental. But very subtly so. It took me many years to figure out why because I had no frame of reference for problems within the church. I learned later that probably the reason why they were choked spiritually was because of eldership control and a type of clergy-laity vibe that they practiced. There was a lot of hidden ambition for position and a lot of brothers were trying to work their way up the ladder of church administration to become prominent members. So for sure that was a huge subtle problem and it just sucked because I was in love with God when I moved away from Spokane. But that locality just killed a lot of it. I needed the saints to be loving and living and shepherding like what I experienced in Spokane and they just weren't. I felt judged, I felt like I didn't fit in, and I felt like there was no spiritual food there. I think that was my first introduction to a lot of what people on this site are talking about with regards to the "special class" of leadership in the LC

The only thing I know about how other churches treated Moses Lake was that one time when I was in Spokane, maybe 2005 I think, the elder there stood up and told everyone that Bill Freeman was visiting Spokane, possibly moving there, and he advised everyone to stay away from him, and don't talk to him. And said something about how poisonous he was. That seemed very odd to me at the time because Spokane usually never talked about anything besides Christ and God's economy. I have a mild opinion about the elder there, but it's nothing solid and for the most part that locality was not "controlled" nor did it have an atmosphere of being controlled by any elder, not like Bellevue did. I think part of the reason for that is that there were so many living brothers there who were NOT at all caught in ambition for position. For instance in Bellevue there were like three elders who always sat in the front row and you could tell they thought they were powerful and at times they exercised control over the saints. And it was just so weird because you could tell easily who was number 1, who was number 2, and who was number 3 elder. It was like a moving ranking system which never sat right with me. But in Spokane the brothers all just had one thing in common- they wanted to enjoy Christ, and that made the locality there so living and enjoyable

But Bill Freeman eventually died a few years after that and the leading elder in Bellevue died maybe 10 years ago now? I forget. But I wonder how the locality there has changed. I've moved to a nearby locality and I've run into problems with the leadership as well and seen things that really are very troubling

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Jay

But in Spokane the brothers all just had one thing in common- they wanted to enjoy Christ, and that made the locality there so living and enjoyable

I felt in Spokane there was more autonomy than other Washington state localities. There were several brothers from the brothers house in Spokane that came to the wedding reception of my wife and I back in September 1997. I appreciated their thoughtfulness of coming. It was at the Bellevue meeting hall.
I was surprised or not so surprised when one of them became an elder in Spokane.
In regards to Moses Lake, that locality as well as ones in the Great Lakes area make my argument why local churches are ministry churches. The denominating factor is affiliation with Living Stream Ministry.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

I felt in Spokane there was more autonomy than other Washington state localities. There were several brothers from the brothers house in Spokane that came to the wedding reception of my wife and I back in September 1997. I appreciated their thoughtfulness of coming. It was at the Bellevue meeting hall.
I was surprised or not so surprised when one of them became an elder in Spokane.
In regards to Moses Lake, that locality as well as ones in the Great Lakes area make my argument why local churches are ministry churches. The denominating factor is affiliation with Living Stream Ministry.

Yeah I can't really argue that because 1. I don't see what goes on behind closed doors and why and how they make their decisions, and 2. I would have to agree that I sense that kind of hierarchy amongst the churches on the west side of the mountains in Washington state. I sense that they are answering up to someone in Anaheim that is higher ranking than them. I just sense that fear about these brothers who call themselves elders, leaders, administration, and responsible ones. There's just this latent fear in their eyes and behavior like they're answering up to someone higher than them in position that I never felt or saw in Spokane

I would also agree that the church in Spokane felt a lot more autonomous than the churches on the West coast. Actually I've even seen something that looked like subterfuge while preaching the gospel over here. When I was preaching with the local brothers from Renton they made it a really big point to say "Bibles for America is not associated with the church in Renton." I just felt them being so adamant about that point was so odd. Like maybe that is true on paper, but the way they kept repeating it was like a guilty person keeps repeating "I am not guilty." Just kind of an odd thing that stood out strangely to me. They were saying it to just regular civilian people who would come up to the booth to get a Bible. Looking back it was just weird. I don't even really see the necessity to say that, actually despite BFA being a separate entity from LSM......we all know it's still of the LSM goal and business plan. And we all know that LSM has everything to do with the local churches. So clearly so does BFA. Which if it's to gospelize and "churchize" the entire earth then why not just say that it's all the same goal and source? But to make it an adamant point to separate those LLC's really comes across like you've got something to hide. Possibly they've been accused of building up their own ministry or authoritarian control over the gospel and the local churches. But it just seems unnecessary to me. Because they ARE affiliated with the local churches and BFA IS definitely out of the local churches. So to say they're not affiliated is just really duplicitous and pretty much lying. Sure TECHNICALLY they are not the same company, but we all know they're affiliated. That's just obvious. I just don't really get it and it always sat weird how the leading preachers kept repeating that to people

And for the record I am behind and in support of BFA, BFE, etc. I want the Bible to go out and I love my Bible with footnotes and use it just about every day. And I think it's the best tool to fulfill 1 Timothy 2:3-4

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Jay

Yeah I can't really argue that because 1. I don't see what goes on behind closed doors and why and how they make their decisions, and 2. I would have to agree that I sense that kind of hierarchy amongst the churches on the west side of the mountains in Washington state. I sense that they are answering up to someone in Anaheim that is higher ranking than them. I just sense that fear about these brothers who call themselves elders, leaders, administration, and responsible ones. There's just this latent fear in their eyes and behavior like they're answering up to someone higher than them in position that I never felt or saw in Spokane

I would also agree that the church in Spokane felt a lot more autonomous than the churches on the West coast. Actually I've even seen something that looked like subterfuge while preaching the gospel over here. When I was preaching with the local brothers from Renton they made it a really big point to say "Bibles for America is not associated with the church in Renton." I just felt them being so adamant about that point was so odd. Like maybe that is true on paper, but the way they kept repeating it was like a guilty person keeps repeating "I am not guilty." Just kind of an odd thing that stood out strangely to me. They were saying it to just regular civilian people who would come up to the booth to get a Bible. Looking back it was just weird. I don't even really see the necessity to say that, actually despite BFA being a separate entity from LSM......we all know it's still of the LSM goal and business plan. And we all know that LSM has everything to do with the local churches. So clearly so does BFA. Which if it's to gospelize and "churchize" the entire earth then why not just say that it's all the same goal and source? But to make it an adamant point to separate those LLC's really comes across like you've got something to hide. Possibly they've been accused of building up their own ministry or authoritarian control over the gospel and the local churches. But it just seems unnecessary to me. Because they ARE affiliated with the local churches and BFA IS definitely out of the local churches. So to say they're not affiliated is just really duplicitous and pretty much lying. Sure TECHNICALLY they are not the same company, but we all know they're affiliated. That's just obvious. I just don't really get it and it always sat weird how the leading preachers kept repeating that to people

And for the record I am behind and in support of BFA, BFE, etc. I want the Bible to go out and I love my Bible with footnotes and use it just about every day. And I think it's the best tool to fulfill 1 Timothy 2:3-4

When I was meeting with Bellevue, it seemed the Puget Sound localities viewed Spokane being out of step. Doing their own thing and not in coordination with the other localities. Personally I viewed Spokane, as a place where someone with a bad rap could go to get a fresh start. That seemed to change once Spokane's lead elder passed away.
Affiliations always seem to have a tie to a parent company. If there is no affiliation, that would be plausible if the volunteers for BFA never met with the local churches, but with other denominations or non-denominational church. I met with the Church in Renton for about a year. Back when their meetings were still held at Renton High School.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

When I was meeting with Bellevue, it seemed the Puget Sound localities viewed Spokane being out of step. Doing their own thing and not in coordination with the other localities. Personally I viewed Spokane, as a place where someone with a bad rap could go to get a fresh start. That seemed to change once Spokane's lead elder passed away.
Affiliations always seem to have a tie to a parent company. If there is no affiliation, that would be plausible if the volunteers for BFA never met with the local churches, but with other denominations or non-denominational church. I met with the Church in Renton for about a year. Back when their meetings were still held at Renton High School.

Are you talking about Tennef? Not sure I spelled his name correctly. When I met there he was very old. He owned a jewelry shop downtown Spokane and all his employees were saints. I'm sure he did pass away not many years after I left Spokane in 2006 for Bellevue. Anyway I remember Jim Clark was acting as the lead elder. It could be that he was under Tennef idk. But as I stated earlier I had a certain spidey sense about Jim Clark. But I also enjoyed the Lord a lot around him. But I remember one time when I moved to Bellevue he was visiting and he was meeting with the Bellevue brothers and they had a kind of weird little pow wow in one home meeting that just stood out to me. I see a great deal of clergy-laity type behavior in the Puget sound churches. With a kind of hierarchy and a lot of brothers "in line" for the special class. It's a weird thing that I never experienced in Spokane. I don't want to bad mouth Jim Clark, but I sensed something about him and when he had that pow wow it was something that stood out to me. Years later I see the problem of this hierarchy a lot in Renton and Bellevue, so I wonder how the church in Spokane is doing now. I wonder if they've been affected by any type of clergy-laity or hierarchy problems. I know that a church in Cheney was raised up in the last decade or so. Cheney is about 15 miles east of Spokane

I've only been to Tacoma once, and only to Seattle a handful of times, probably less than five or six times. Anyway, I'm sure that type of leadership problem is all around in this area. I never had a good feeling about Willie Wise or Sherman Robertson, and I've mentioned elsewhere about the line of leadership in Bellevue and how weird those "front row" brothers acted when I was meeting there. I've been meeting with Renton since around 2016ish and it's definitely there latently amongst some of the young leading brothers and I've brushed up against it and I don't like it. There's a lot of brothers who desire to be speakers and others who desire to be elders. To me this is ambition for position, and brother Lee spoke out strongly against it many times. On the other hand we have a verse such as 1 Timothy 3:1 which says 'if anyone aspires to the [eldership], he desires a good work.' Maybe a catch-22 here. But I do believe the motive probably matters here. If one has ambition for a position to glorify himself then his heart is wrong. Whereas if one has the desire to help and serve the saints then possibly his desire is pure. I've heard many times from the ministry that an elder is a slave to the body. But often I see elders sitting in their positions as if it's a position of glory. To me that's the uplifting of the self and should automatically disqualify these ones from the position

But I agree, the whole BFA gospel behavior is fishy and duplicitous. It could be some weird legal reason or it could be these brothers are caught up in what the dissenters say and it's all orders from Anaheim headquarters. Whatever it is it doesn't seem normal or along the line of Christ. I think this special class of leaders hides a lot of their behaviors from the nominal members, and the nominal members don't think to ask. I was literally at the gospel preaching watching it happen and it didn't come up in my mind to really ask WHY he made a point to differentiate the two. To this day I don't really know. But I also am happy that the Bible expounded is going out and reaching people and they are gaining the full truth of the word. I am thankful for that regardless of whatever duplicity is going on