Witness Lee's Last Word - "SACRIFICE"

[Nell]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Lee is not their pope. He simply is the source of at least 90% of all their teachings. Just about all materials from just about every conceivable meeting are simply quotes from his work that are repeated and given the "amen."

Lee is not their patriarch. He is simply the one who made the Life-Studies which the Recovery Version of the bible is based off of, and whoever doesn't keep this interpreted word will "lose everything eventually."

Lee is not their Christ. He is simply, in his own words, the "oracle of God" to whom has been bestowed the authority and word of God to speak to every single Christian on earth and those who don't submit to this "headship" are rebelling against God's "deputy authority on earth."

So for such a man's final word to be printed and framed in multiple localities and for that word to be "sacrifice" is just par for the course in the Local Churches. Considering everything that is taught in The Lord's Recovery and all the traditions and religious practices they hold to, I would say that this in and of itself would not cause further abuse but is simply another symptom of deeper issues within that denomination/sect.

Could we say that this alleged "last word of Lee" business is representative of blatant idol worship...idolatry?

Nell

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Nell

Could we say that this alleged "last word of Lee" business is representative of blatant idol worship...idolatry?

Nell

Honestly, it would depend much on the hearts of men. If I was a close friend of a pastor or minister and worked closely with him in his ministry and he gave me his final word on his death bed, I might write it down or frame it somewhere on my desk at home or my office or something. I would not consider such a thing to be idolatry in and of itself. However, considering the pattern we've seen in The Lord's Recovery, both from the words of its current leadership and the teachings and words of Witness Lee, I know this is something quite a bit more concerning. To those who hold that idea that Lee's ideas must be followed lest one face 1000 years of darkness, to those who believe he is God's "deputy authority" on earth that can never be critiqued or questioned, to those who believe that being in Lee denomination and holding to his teachings (i.e. "The Lord's Recovery) is the only way to be an "overcomer" while all others are "deformed" and "degraded"...

It is those who are effectively committing idolatry in their hearts even if not with their lips. Just as how Jesus mentioned that some praise God with their lips but have their hearts far from him, there are many who do the opposite with Lee: they will not overtly hold him as their god or their christ or their pope or their master, but in their hearts they do and this manifests itself with the actions taken by the leaders of the ministry and the members who take part in or acquiesce to what has been going on.

It is these ones that are in danger of being judged for idolatry: for putting Lee's ministry before Christ and the words of a man before the Word of God. It is those who believe that the scriptures are accountable to Lee's writings rather than the other way around lest it be guilty of becoming a "dead letter." It is the ones who would silence those who speak up about abuse or negative experiences because it is seen as "death" and "poison" that the members should avoid listening to lest they somehow be cut off from the Spirit and "become death" themselves. It is these ones who are most likely to delight in framing Lee's final word and have no qualms about putting it up in every meeting hall they can because "life" or some nonsense like that. It is these ones who will demand much from the congregation, including obedience and submission, while they themselves refuse to answer to their fellow man or even our God who has spoken to us through his scriptures.

Such men are guilty of idolatry not always with their lips, but always with their hearts and their hands, regardless of whether or not they frame Lee's final words. They are, however, the ones most likely to want to do such a thing. Those who do not hold to Lee in such a way would likely not want to do such a thing or feel comfortable with it when they see others posting it in their meeting halls, but as we've all seen even such people are not very likely to protest and cause any substantial change without being labeled as a "contentious" brother/sister.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Honestly, it would depend much on the hearts of men. ...
Such men are guilty of idolatry not always with their lips, but always with their hearts and their hands, ....

From a body of evidence over a lifetime, I don't think we have to look far to determine idolatry of Lee or not. The "last word" in a frame is just the capstone leading to the obvious. We need to first understand what idolatry is, weigh the actions (not the words) of Lee and his followers over time.

IMHO It's not about the hearts of men. We certainly cannot know the heart of any man. It's about the behavior...actions of men. We can see their actions with our own eyes. We have also lived under the consequences of their behavior. Is there any doubt that without the "Lee factor" the entire Local Church movement would collapse?

Nell

[Ohio]

My question is - Sacrifice for who or for what?

Of course the Blendeds would boldly and positively spin this word, if indeed it was really WL’s dying word. But what did WL teach the last decade of his life?

Back in the 70’s when I entered the scene, it was “Christ, only Christ” and “Come back to the pure Word of God.” These sayings were more than prominent, and attractive, to me in those early days. At least in the few LC’s in Ohio.

By the time of the “new way” a decade later, things had really changed. It was all about being “one with Brother Lee,” and “one with the ministry.”

So we should ask how would those around WL interpret this word “sacrifice?” I think it is reasonable, based on all available evidence, that he encouraged others to sacrifice their lives to promote him and his ministry.

Some would consider this to be idolatry.

Btw, didn’t they turn WL’s home into a museum? Didn’t they create an entire cemetery just to be buried closed to him?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

My question is - Sacrifice for who or for what?

Of course the Blendeds would boldly and positively spin this word, if indeed it was really WL’s dying word. But what did WL teach the last decade of his life?

Conversely, we have Gubei in past #611 https://localchurchdiscussions.com/v...?t=5150&page=2
reflecting from Witness Lee's last public message spoken in Chinese. Since it was not in English, it was easy to spin the message what the brothers wanted for consumption.
It really doesn't matter what Witness Lee said or taught the last decade of his life. If it was something the blendeds disagreed with, they would spin it in a different direction or not speak of it at all.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Nell

From a body of evidence over a lifetime, I don't think we have to look far to determine idolatry of Lee or not. The "last word" in a frame is just the capstone leading to the obvious. We need to first understand what idolatry is, weigh the actions (not the words) of Lee and his followers over time.

IMHO It's not about the hearts of men. We certainly cannot know the heart of any man. It's about the behavior...actions of men. We can see their actions with our own eyes. We have also lived under the consequences of their behavior. Is there any doubt that without the "Lee factor" the entire Local Church movement would collapse?

Nell

It seems to me, Nell, that the two ideas are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Actions are often tied to what is in one's heart. But let's say a young brother is tasked with putting up the picture. He may not think much of Lee or really dwell so much on his writings, but "sacrifice" sounds like an interesting idea to him. Perhaps he should do more to give the Lord. The living sacrifice of his body. The sacrifice of praise from his lips. He doesn't give it much more thought than that and simply hangs the frame as requested by the elders in his locality. Perhaps he muses on the word for another week or two, thinking it's a rather interesting way to close the book on one's life, but as the weeks go on he forgets about the frame and the word. It becomes just another part of the background in the meeting hall he attends. He continues to study his bible and seeks to praise the Lord as many genuine saints in The Lord's Recovery have done, are doing, and will likely continue to do despite the darker goings on that often goes over their heads. He preaches the gospel with a pure heart, emphasizing a need for repentance and coming to the full knowledge of the truth as the Lord has commanded. He continues to search the scriptures because he loves to learn about his God and the men who preceded him in following this God. Yet perhaps every now and then the quote reminds him of the sacrifice of the Son of God and the sacrifice we are called to give as sons of God.

It is for young men and women that have such hearts that I say it is a matter of the heart. Being complacent in the framing and hanging of such a quote is not in and of itself idolatry. Meeting in that particular meeting hall which contains the frame is not in and of itself idolatry. Musing on the word "sacrifice" after seeing the quote is not in and of itself idolatry.

This is why it is a matter of the heart, because our actions are ultimately dictated by the state of our heart, and our actions will mold our hearts as well. They go hand in hand with one another. There are men, wicked men, who do indeed raise Lee to such an idolatrous status, even if they themselves don't realize it or are willing to admit it. They hold to Lee's teachings faithfully. The twin doctrines of "Minister of the Age" and "deputy authority" which place Lee at the top of an ungodly hierarchy. The "dead letter" doctrine which makes the Word of God answer to Lee's interpretation rather than the other way around and its sister doctrine of seeing all opposing testimonies as "poison" or "trash". The doctrine of "degraded" and "deformed" Christianity along with its sibling doctrine of the "Overcomers" which creates the stagnant air of spiritual elitism within the Local Churches.

But not everyone holds to these. Some may hate all such ideas from Lee, or they may not yet realize that this is exactly what is happening within The Lord's Recovery. Such a one who is ignorant may be perfectly fine with having such a quote framed and hung on a wall within their locality, and they are not guilty of idolatry, neither in their actions nor in their hearts. This is why I will not simply say that doing such a thing is idolatry. It depends on the heart of man, for many faithful and genuine brothers and sisters will do such things to remember and honor other genuine and faithful brothers and sisters who have passed. Such an action is not in and of itself idolatry. As you've stated, in The Lord's Recovery such a thing is the capstone, not the foundation. Because of this, we must be careful upon whom we heap the accusation of idolatry.

Tell me that one of the abusive ones who holds to all the twisted doctrines I mentioned above is the one who framed and hung it in their meeting hall, and I will be much more willing to accuse him of idolatry, but to those who do not know much yet appreciate the quote and are inspired by it I will not heap such an accusation.

I am not saying that you would, Nell, but I feel like this clarification on my part is necessary. It really feels like both our statements are really just two sides of the same coin. I also understand that the longer one remains in The Lord's Recovery, the less ignorant they will become, and if such experienced ones remain ignorant it may very well be because they choose to be ignorant, ignoring the testimonies of ones such as John Ingalls, Steve Isitt, Jo Casteel, and the many who have given their word here and elsewhere. Because of this, it is also true that the longer one remains in The Lord's Recovery, the greater the odds of the idols of the Local Churches making their way into their hearts. This is because they will see the red flags and refuse to take action because they fear being "dead right" and would prefer to be "livingly wrong." Though their once pure hearts and minds may not have fallen under judgement from the onset because they had not taken such foul teachings into their hearts, I believe that we all know that in The Lord's Recovery it is only a matter of time before the Lord offers to open our eyes and gives us an opportunity to make a proper choice.

To my great sorrow, I am certain that many of us are aware that many dear brothers and sisters within the Local Churches have refused to take advantage of such an opportunity, hardening their hearts rather than letting the Lord soften them.