Book by James G. Battell

[ACuriousFellow]

Good morning! I've just recently discovered a book that seems to have been recently published (August 28, 2023, according to the seller).

It's titled Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, and Living Stream Ministry: A Critical Analysis of Their Identity as Cult or Church and is written by James G. Battell.

I haven't the foggiest who Battell is, but I'll post what's on the back of the book.

This year is the centennial of the birth of one of China's most brave and bold believers the body of Christ was blessed to receive.

China today boasts of having more believers in Jesus than almost anywhere else in the world. Their suffering and service to God are honoring and also humbling to those of us in the West. While they are out of sight due to the vast distance and culture they are never out of mind.

This book looks beyond the legacy of Watchman Nee and his successor Witness Lee, and focuses more importantly on their theology, government, and teachings. And ends with the difficult question: Are they a cult or a church?

James G. Battell is a Christian writer, radio broadcaster, video maker, and caster. He also runs an international Bible-believing ministry with his father (www.excatholicsforchrist.com)

[ACuriousFellow]

Update: It's a pretty short booklet rather than a book. It's mostly a review of a particular booklet published by Living Stream Ministry which is also pretty short. He certainly doesn't seem to agree with the positions that The Lord's Recovery takes on some theological matters, and he declares that while they have issues and heresies, they're not a cult.

Just another men, trying to make a buck, that haven’t read or interviewed anyone making bold statements without any concrete evidence reviewed. Why do these men even try? I bet he didn’t read 2% of the LSM publications before he wrote his little booklet. He is welcome to dispute this, but it sure sound like another one bites the dust! I will save $4.99 for a cup of coffee, at least it will be more enjoyable that reading some uninformed individual trying to make sense of something he knows nothing about! (This would be my review on Amazon, if I would actually had an ability to do so).

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Just another men, trying to make a buck, that haven’t read or interviewed anyone making bold statements without any concrete evidence reviewed. Why do these men even try? I bet he didn’t read 2% of the LSM publications before he wrote his little booklet. He is welcome to dispute this, but it sure sound like another one bites the dust! I will save $4.99 for a cup of coffee, at least it will be more enjoyable that reading some uninformed individual trying to make sense of something he knows nothing about! (This would be my review on Amazon, if I would actually had an ability to do so).

How do you know this? Are you personally acquainted with Mr. Battell? Have you read his book? It sounds like you’re paying too much for your coffee.

Nell

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Just another men, trying to make a buck, that haven’t read or interviewed anyone making bold statements without any concrete evidence reviewed. Why do these men even try? I bet he didn’t read 2% of the LSM publications before he wrote his little booklet. He is welcome to dispute this, but it sure sound like another one bites the dust! I will save $4.99 for a cup of coffee, at least it will be more enjoyable that reading some uninformed individual trying to make sense of something he knows nothing about! (This would be my review on Amazon, if I would actually had an ability to do so).

While I believe a cursory glance at LSM can bring up a lot of red flags, I do wonder how deeply he's looked into the matter. There is so much nonsense that came out of Lee and Living Stream Ministry that it would honestly be nigh impossible to cover it all with just one little booklet like what Battell published.

For example, we have the "Minister of the Age" doctrine, which is one of the most ironic doctrines considering how much Lee hates the Catholic Church system. The sibling doctrine of "Deputy Authority" also feeds into this foolish notion that Lee and the leaders of The Lord's Recovery are some unquestionable authority figures whose ministries are perfectly crafted by God and should not be critiqued.

There's also the idea that if you turn away from the "Ministry" that comes from Lee's Life-Studies and the footnotes of the Recovery, you'll "lose everything" eventually. This often goes hand-in-hand with their "One Publication" mandate which demands that their affiliated churches only utilize materials from Living Stream Ministry. So much for not being a centralized church organization like the Catholic Church, huh?

At least he touched on the Local Churches' spiritual elitism which pervades their teachings and culture.

I'm actually trying to get in touch with him to see what else he knows about Local Church history and doctrine. He may be very interested to see the testimonies of those "rebels" John Ingalls and Jo Casteel who were trying to "poison" the church in an "attack from Satan."

There's so much more that can be discussed. Still, a lot of this stuff happened in the U.S., and if I'm not mistaken he seems to be British. Perhaps he has simply not seen the extent of LC nonsense that has transpired across the puddle.

I wonder if the Local Churches, which are totally not an organization, will collectively sue another author with the help of LSM. Can they sue a British author? Does Britain even have the same laws for such things? Guess we'll see!

[aron]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

[Battell] certainly doesn't seem to agree with the positions that The Lord's Recovery takes on some theological matters, and he declares that while they have issues and heresies, they're not a cult.

If the Pastor (or Minister, Reverend, Apostle, or whatever they style themselves as) places their son as Office Manager, which Manager then sexually assaults the office help (it's not consensual because of the power difference) and the Pastor subsequently removes Board members who find out and raise the issue, is that group a church or a cult? I say it's a cult.

If the Pastor repeatedly uses group members' money to fund businesses run by the Pastor's son, is that a church or a cult? I say it's a cult.

If I knew any of this, I never would have joined that group. All their protestations of orthodoxy were window dressing to aid recruiting. It was a personality cult designed and built to facilitate the lifestyle of the Witness Lee's's offspring. The whole thing was built on silence, intimidation and deception.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

If the Pastor (or Minister, Reverend, Apostle, or whatever they style themselves as) places their son as Office Manager, which Manager then sexually assaults the office help (it's not consensual because of the power difference) and the Pastor subsequently removes Board members who find out and raise the issue, is that group a church or a cult? I say it's a cult.

If the Pastor repeatedly uses group members' money to fund businesses run by the Pastor's son, is that a church or a cult? I say it's a cult.

If I knew any of this, I never would have joined that group. All their protestations of orthodoxy were window dressing to aid recruiting. It was a personality cult designed and built to facilitate the lifestyle of the Witness Lee's's offspring. The whole thing was built on silence, intimidation and deception.

And, I suppose, this is my cue to step in and say that, in my opinion, the gross sins and lawless corruption by leaders in the Anaheim ministry offices do not characterize every member and every LC as a cult. Are not we all judged by our own actions? But these are just my own convictions, and may not represent every poster or the moderators of this forum. Personally, I never learned about these horrible 1980's era events until 2005, when I departed.

Every church I have ever met with (Catholic, evangelical Lutheran, LC, Pentecostal, Church of Christ, Independent Community, and now Baptist) has at one time or another been labeled a cult. To me the word has no Christian usefulness. In today's modern culture it's like calling someone you disagree with "racist."

Peace to all!

[UntoHim]

I haven't seen this booklet yet, but I don't believe anyone has ever characterized "every member and every local church" as a cult. Most people are a lot more measured and considerate than to paint with that broad of a brush. It's the same way with the term "heretic"....just because someone is taught and receives heretical teachings, this does not make that individual person a heretic. Only the person(s) disseminating heresy should be considered as a heretic. Only the person(s) teaching false teachings should be considered as a false teacher.

In regards to my friend Ohio's claim that "Every church I have ever met with (long list) has at one time or another been labeled a cult."....Well even IF this dubious claim was true, the real question would be WHO is calling WHO "a cult". Many of the teachings and practices of The Local Church of Witness Lee have been labeled as cultish by a number of renown and established Christian apologists and ministry leaders. Also, I must say that in my many decades of experience and observation, a great number of the Christians that come in contact with the Local Church come away with a strong impression that, at the very least, the group exhibits a number of cultic traits and characteristics.

Let's give ACuriousFellow some time to give us a little book review, shall we?
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Let's give ACuriousFellow some time to give us a little book review, shall we?
-

Yes, indeed. Please do ACuriousFellow.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Let's give ACuriousFellow some time to give us a little book review, shall we?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, indeed. Please do ACuriousFellow.

Uh-oh. Looks like the spotlight's on me, haha! Ok. I'll get to work on it. It's a booklet, so it shouldn't take too long, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Nell

How do you know this? Are you personally acquainted with Mr. Battell? Have you read his book? It sounds like you’re paying too much for your coffee.
Nell

I don’t know this author, nor am I super interested to get there. I have came to a simple conclusion in my life, and that is to never read or support anything from anyone who is writing about something they haven’t done, been a part of. Simple put, if you haven’t done it, experienced it, especially when it comes to reviews of churches, workplaces, restaurant or anything else of significance, I don’t want to hear your reviews or conclusions.

I know it rubs people the wrong way, which it looks like it did for you. I chose every day to say no to many books and reviews, and just put them in the “fiction section”. Why?, because although it may contain some truth in them, the missing what I call “the soul” of the book, which only can be written about or reviewed by immersing oneself into the particular issue or a group is just not there. The closest review of this movement was done by Neil T. Duddy, and as an outsider at least he did some due diligence to speak with people who were once there, unlike CRI or anyone else since.

You can sue people or threaten them as the local church is very known to do. You can force people or pay someone to remove unwanted labels from your movement. But it’s only those who have had a taste of the content in the jar, now can step back and do the assessment of it. What is very unfortunate, is that local church will close the lid on you while you not paying much attention, and tell you that you must only eat of this jar, and live in this jar. Getting out is rough, but now that I’m sitting here and drinking my Caramel Macchiato that I did pay $6.90 for, I can freely not look on any labels, or wild superlative description of something one way or another, until I have invested myself into a matter diligently, without preconceived notion’s or whatever is proclaimed by anyone!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I don’t know this author, nor am I super interested to get there. I have came to a simple conclusion in my life, and that is to never read or support anything from anyone who is writing about something they haven’t done, been a part of. Simple put, if you haven’t done it, experienced it, especially when it comes to reviews of churches, workplaces, restaurant or anything else of significance, I don’t want to hear your reviews or conclusions.

I know it rubs people the wrong way, which it looks like it did for you. I chose every day to say no to many books and reviews, and just put them in the “fiction section”. Why?, because although it may contain some truth in them, the missing what I call “the soul” of the book, which only can be written about or reviewed by immersing oneself into the particular issue or a group is just not there. The closest review of this movement was done by Neil T. Duddy, and as an outsider at least he did some due diligence to speak with people who were once there, unlike CRI or anyone else since.

You can sue people or threaten them as the local church is very known to do. You can force people or pay someone to remove unwanted labels from your movement. But it’s only those who have had a taste of the content in the jar, now can step back and do the assessment of it. What is very unfortunate, is that local church will close the lid on you while you not paying much attention, and tell you that you must only eat of this jar, and live in this jar. Getting out is rough, but now that I’m sitting here and drinking my Caramel Macchiato that I did pay $6.90 for, I can freely not look on any labels, or wild superlative description of something one way or another, until I have invested myself into a matter diligently, without preconceived notion’s or whatever is proclaimed by anyone!

So ... Unregistered ... I'm assuming that you love all my posts since I was totally immersed in the LC movement for decades. I completely "tasted the content of the jar" every day, all day long for years and years. I have "done it, tasted it, experienced it, lived it," and been a part of it.

Plus, because I'm so "steeped in their tea" ... remember teaification? ... all of my posts are "short, quick, living, and to the point." can't get better than that!

So, before you judge this place or the posters, please do the same and register, eh?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Simple put, if you haven’t done it, experienced it, especially when it comes to reviews of churches, workplaces, restaurant or anything else of significance, I don’t want to hear your reviews or conclusions.

I know it rubs people the wrong way, which it looks like it did for you. I chose every day to say no to many books and reviews, and just put them in the “fiction section”. Why?, because although it may contain some truth in them, the missing what I call “the soul” of the book, which only can be written about or reviewed by immersing oneself into the particular issue or a group is just not there. The closest review of this movement was done by Neil T. Duddy, and as an outsider at least he did some due diligence to speak with people who were once there, unlike CRI or anyone else since.

Yes, I would put CRI in the same category as Neil Duddy and Jack Sparks. They lack the credibility of Speaking the Truth In Love by John Ingalls, The Thread of Gold by Jane Carole Anderson, and In Wake of the New Way by Steve Isitt. They've done it and experienced it.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

Yes, I would put CRI in the same category as Neil Duddy and Jack Sparks. They lack the credibility of Speaking the Truth In Love by John Ingalls, The Thread of Gold by Jane Carole Anderson, and In Wake of the New Way by Steve Isitt. They've done it and experienced it.

I wonder, then, if I'm weird for agreeing with much of the SCP's analysis of Local Church doctrine in that God-Men book. However!.... I am grateful to have just now become aware that Steve Isitt authored a book. Just ordered it, haha!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I wonder, then, if I'm weird for agreeing with much of the SCP's analysis of Local Church doctrine in that God-Men book. However!.... I am grateful to have just now become aware that Steve Isitt authored a book. Just ordered it, haha!

I’m not sure if we ever did a serious review or discussion of SCP’s God-Men book here on the forum.

Steve Isitt, in my view, has operated as a real LC journalist, networking with dozens of former members, making sure to preserve their accounts of the facts of LC history.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I’m not sure if we ever did a serious review or discussion of SCP’s God-Men book here on the forum.

Steve Isitt, in my view, has operated as a real LC journalist, networking with dozens of former members, making sure to preserve their accounts of the facts of LC history.

I don't think we have Ohio or at least enough interested to do a review/comments.
Regarding Steve, he's both a journalist and a prophet. As much as the Local Church co-workers and elders have tried to suppress, Steve's efforts has helped bring forth the other side of the story. Without Steve, I don't think I would have ever known the existence of Speaking the Truth in Love. A mutual brother Steve and I knew well, his wife happened to had a hard copy of the book.
Steve has actually been up and down the highways meeting and interviewing various brothers and sisters formerly of the local churches.
Would we had known Mario Sandoval's experiences if not for Steve's article Hear the Cases. The investigative journalism may not be complete, but we may know "The Rest of the Story".

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

I don't think we have Ohio or at least enough interested to do a review/comments.
Regarding Steve, he's both a journalist and a prophet. As much as the Local Church co-workers and elders have tried to suppress, Steve's efforts has helped bring forth the other side of the story. Without Steve, I don't think I would have ever known the existence of Speaking the Truth in Love. A mutual brother Steve and I knew well, his wife happened to had a hard copy of the book.
Steve has actually been up and down the highways meeting and interviewing various brothers and sisters formerly of the local churches.
Would we had known Mario Sandoval's experiences if not for Steve's article Hear the Cases. The investigative journalism may not be complete, but we may know "The Rest of the Story".

I looked up "Steve Isitt Hear the Cases" and found this court case. Looks like Steve's taken a tour of the courts with good ol' LSM.