YouTube Texas Street Preacher

[byHismercy]

I just wanted to share a new YouTube channel with content by someone coming out of the LC system. His channel is called Texas Street Preacher. More public conversation happening in the comment section there.

[NewManLiving]

https://youtu.be/fOOB7kHXO60
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCED...wHSMxyBkZk4Mqw
His playlists reveal his true mentality. More like Fred Phelps and Company

[Melo]

I'll be the first to criticize the shortcomings of the LC, but these videos are extremely appalling. I don't see a love of God in this videos, but rather a love for controversy, and attention. Every single video has a click-baity title that makes me cringe honestly.

It's funny, when I saw this post, I was thinking I might know how exactly who is behind this Youtube Channel, and I was correct. I knew he had gone on a bit off the wall once he left the LC, but yikes this is way worse than I imagined. I've skimmed a few of his videos, the only one I watched in full was his most recent (Witness Lee's CULT Exposed - Their "Oneness"...), and thus far I am not impressed with any of his revelations concerning the LC. If he wants to criticize LC's branding of themselves as separate from the rest of Christianity, he cannot make video after video damning Christian's and non-Christians for their differing views, and practices. He cannot criticize the LC's facade of loving and acceptance if he is actively rebuking people in their day-to-day life. He can't have it both ways. He is simply bitter about being called out for saying blatantly wrong, horrible things and people seeing through his intentions.

People like him are why so many despise Christians. I certainly don't think he deserves any more recognition outside a dusty old corner for him to yell at people at. But of course, that's just my two cents.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Melo

I'll be the first to criticize the shortcomings of the LC, but these videos are extremely appalling. I don't see a love of God in this videos, but rather a love for controversy, and attention. Every single video has a click-baity title that makes me cringe honestly.

It's funny, when I saw this post, I was thinking I might know how exactly who is behind this Youtube Channel, and I was correct. I knew he had gone on a bit off the wall once he left the LC, but yikes this is way worse than I imagined. I've skimmed a few of his videos, the only one I watched in full was his most recent (Witness Lee's CULT Exposed - Their "Oneness"...), and thus far I am not impressed with any of his revelations concerning the LC. If he wants to criticize LC's branding of themselves as separate from the rest of Christianity, he cannot make video after video damning Christian's and non-Christians for their differing views, and practices. He cannot criticize the LC's facade of loving and acceptance if he is actively rebuking people in their day-to-day life. He can't have it both ways. He is simply bitter about being called out for saying blatantly wrong, horrible things and people seeing through his intentions.

People like him are why so many despise Christians. I certainly don't think he deserves any more recognition outside a dusty old corner for him to yell at people at. But of course, that's just my two cents.

Just the one problem you have, is the fact that you LCers are masters of deception, this TX street preacher speaks the truth regarding your cult, and you don't like it. Huge surprise. I am very sorry to say, but you cannot be trusted as far as I can throw you,
byHismercy

[NewManLiving]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Just the one problem you have, is the fact that you LCers are masters of deception, this TX street preacher speaks the truth regarding your cult, and you don't like it. Huge surprise. I am very sorry to say, but you cannot be trusted as far as I can throw you,
byHismercy

Now you sound like Texas Street Preacher. Are you related?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Just the one problem you have, is the fact that you LCers are masters of deception, this TX street preacher speaks the truth regarding your cult, and you don't like it. Huge surprise. I am very sorry to say, but you cannot be trusted as far as I can throw you,
byHismercy

Given that Melo's first post on this forum was titled "My experience as a church kid: Why I want out", I'm guessing he/she (I think she?) wouldn't agree with your categorization of him/her as "you LCers".

I also visited the YT channel and could only handle a couple minutes. Like Melo, I am one of the first to criticize the LC shortcomings, but the whole demeanor of the guy in the video was also completely offputting to me. His presentation negated the delivery of any truth he may have been speaking. The "in love" part of "speaking the truth in love" was totally absent.

Trapped

[awareness]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Just the one problem you have, is the fact that you LCers are masters of deception, this TX street preacher speaks the truth regarding your cult, and you don't like it. Huge surprise. I am very sorry to say, but you cannot be trusted as far as I can throw you,
byHismercy

Is Melo in the LC?

[Melo]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Given that Melo's first post on this forum was titled "My experience as a church kid: Why I want out", I'm guessing he/she (I think she?) wouldn't agree with your categorization of him/her as "you LCers".

I also visited the YT channel and could only handle a couple minutes. Like Melo, I am one of the first to criticize the LC shortcomings, but the whole demeanor of the guy in the video was also completely offputting to me. His presentation negated the delivery of any truth he may have been speaking. The "in love" part of "speaking the truth in love" was totally absent.

Trapped

Thank you for your defense Trapped! I'm glad someone did a little digging before jumping to conclusions. To better explain my background I am a sister who has grown up in the LC and has thus acquired extensive knowledge of the their beliefs, practices, and atmosphere. I began to question the LC and many of its teachings in high school and have spent much time researching the darker history of the LC. Currently I am still meeting because I am financially dependent on my parents. I hope to be able to leave once I am out of school, but for now I haven't told anyone except on this forum how I feel about the LC. I intend to keep it that way.

So yes, I am 'in' the LC, but I am also looking for a way out. I am not afraid criticize the many malicious teachings of the LC. However, I'm not so sure
that we should be okay with people like Paul Doyle representing either Christians or LC critics. We deserve better.

[Melo]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Given that Melo's first post on this forum was titled "My experience as a church kid: Why I want out", I'm guessing he/she (I think she?) wouldn't agree with your categorization of him/her as "you LCers".

I also visited the YT channel and could only handle a couple minutes. Like Melo, I am one of the first to criticize the LC shortcomings, but the whole demeanor of the guy in the video was also completely offputting to me. His presentation negated the delivery of any truth he may have been speaking. The "in love" part of "speaking the truth in love" was totally absent.

Trapped

Thank you for your defense Trapped! I'm glad someone did a little digging before jumping to conclusions.

[Truthseeker]

Thanks. It's very useful.

[Jo S]

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that we can all work on our delivery, whether it be on Youtube, here on the forums, or in person but to throw out everything that Paul has to offer because you were personally offended by his demeanor speaks to a bigger issue(s) I believe.

His somewhat brash delivery and slogan t-shirts were the first things that stood out to we as well. It's not my taste either but I had no problem hearing what he had to say. So if I was able to get past those distractions then what's the real issue here?

In defense of ByHisMercy, I think the deeper issue is that current and even former LC members don't want to hear the group they were a part of or raised in called a "cult" which Paul emphasized and reasserts over and over again in his videos. I believe that's what's causing the criticism here and it's just easier to point out his mannerisms rather than to give any more attention to what's really causing the reaction.

Now in Paul's defense, what is one supposed to call a group that they themselves don't consider to be a part of Christianity? A sect? Well a sect is typically an offshoot of a larger Christian organization which the LC's by their own admission are not. So what's left to call the LC's then?

Trapped, I believe it's important to note that Paul's addressing the public not the individual. I have no reason to doubt that if he were speaking to someone on a more intimate level that his approach would be adjusted as well. Can you imagine if Jesus tried to gently convey the 7 whoas to the Pharisees and scribes at the dinner table or if Stephen meekly addressed the Jewish counsel?

Paul's rebuking practices and doctrine, he's not speaking to another brother or sister directly as Ephesians teaches in context. It takes a lot to speak out publicly and to Paul that's how his confidence comes across in his presentation. He also makes it clear that he loves those that are listening to his videos at the end of each series, so let's not be quick to judge by mere appearances.

Melo, if your Christian walk was contingent upon financial stability I believe you'll be in for a rough time. I think the bigger issue is fearing your parents will not support you if you voiced your concerns or stopped attending meetings altogether. Paul and ByHisMercy both found the courage to leave the LC's. Rather then criticizing them perhaps you can learn from them. They have more to offer you than you may think.

With that said, we all have room to improve upon in our lives. Let's extend each other some mercy.

[Raptor]

TSPreachers videos on the campus recruiting tactics are pretty good. He is calmer and really breaks down the information into the fine details and just completely blows the lid off of the whole thing.

One thing I think is missing is to describe that probably most if not all in the local churches, even coworkers and LSM do not have a criminal intention to trick, recruit, brainwash and abuse people, sexually or some kind of other criminal or immoral purpose. (Except for all the shady financial gain mixed in, sales of books, training fees (disguised as donations), failed business deals, quotas, etc.)

They really think they are serving God and that WL material is the best thing for mankind. So they really think they are doing everyone a favor even if they have to trick people on the campus. They think that the students will eventually thank them.

So that´s one of the problems with the "cult" label. On one hand, when you are a LCer, and hear the cult label, you scoff and laugh, because the immediate association is that of a cult that wants to kidnap people and engage in human trafficking or some kind of premeditated, intentional criminal plot. And since it´s not the case, they just blow off the cult label and even feel more justified, because now they feel they are being persecuted on account of "the faith". On the other hand, those that label it a cult may lose credibility if the LC does not live up to that premeditated criminal connotation.

So it´s maybe better defined along the lines as a religious and personality cult around the person and teachings of Witness Lee with the potential to cause severe spiritual, psychological, financial and physical damage to its members.

[aron]

One of the best things to happen recently was Jo Casteel publicly calling out LSM for their deceptive and unethical campus recruiting practices. Glad to see that Texas Street Preacher is doing likewise. People need to be warned.

Regarding the 'cult' label, Nigel Tomes covered this a few years back. The ministry of W. Lee and LSM essentially was built on defaming Christianity as lifeless, dormant, satanic, Babylonian, etc etc, and when people called them out on it, they said, "It's just a cultural misunderstanding". Lee made a big deal that his group alone was free from fallen human culture, alone went back to the "pure Word" of the NT, then in their defense (also repeated with CRI) they said his Chinese-ness just wasn't factored into consideration? Talk about two-faced. The whole raison d'etre of the LSM is "everyone's wrong but us", then suddenly it's all a big misunderstanding? Whose misunderstanding?

Originally Posted by Nigel Tomes

“A Chinese Interpretation of Christianity”
The authors[Zimmerman-Liu & Wright] acknowledge that in the 1960s Witness Lee began “preaching his and [Watchman] Nee’s version of Christianity” in the US. Earlier they state that Watchman “Nee did not change the Christian message; rather, he contextualized Christianity to his time and place”—i.e. China in the 1930s. Hence what W. Lee brought to the US, the authors identify (accurately I believe) as “a Chinese interpretation of Christianity.” This is seen as a factor contributing to the ‘cult’ label being affixed to the Local Church. That may be so, but I would emphasize that Witness Lee vehemently rejected the notion that he brought “a Chinese interpretation of Christianity” to the US. On the contrary, he asserted “I know that I came from China, but my teaching is not Chinese...[it] is just a quotation of the Holy Word.” He always claimed that he and W. Nee recovered the original version of Christianity in its pristine purity. Hence he wrote, “What was there at [the Apostle Paul’s] time was the original and recovered church...With us the Lord's recovery began in mainland China 72 years ago. Today there are mainly three kinds of churches...Catholic..., Protestant ...and the original & recovered church. We must choose the original & recovered church because it is genuine.” The Local Church, both in the East and West, W. Lee asserted, was “the original & recovered church,” which corresponds in all its essential features, to “what was there at [the Apostle Paul’s] time.” My point is that the authors’ characterization of the Local Church as a “Chinese interpretation of Christianity” contradicts Witness Lee’s own view of the Local Church as the recovery of the original New Testament pattern. If Zimmerman-Liu & Wright are essentially correct (and I think they are) this seriously undermines the validity of Witness Lee’s Local Church model in the West.

LSM’s Litigious Actions
The authors review the saga of LSM’s litigation against the two books--The Mind Benders, by Jack Sparks and The God-Men, by SCP staff--and their subsequent (unsuccessful) litigation against Harvest House regarding the Encyclopedia of Cults & New Religions by John Ankerberg & John Weldon. All this is familiar ground for most Local Church members. The authors then state that “it appears that the main reason the Local Churches were labeled a cult was because they were too ‘Chinese’ for mainstream evangelical Protestants in 1970s America.” As support they quote, CRI’s Elliott Miller saying “the [Local Church’s] distinctively Chinese approach to the universal truths of Christianity has contributed significantly to their being misunderstood and mislabeled as a cult in the West.” Again I point out that the argument--“we were misunderstood due to our ‘distinctively Chinese approach to...Christianity’”--is inconsistent with the Local Church’s own raison d’être.

Not an Innocent Victim
I agree with these authors’ observations; the Local Church does have a distinctively Chinese approach to Christian truth & practice which aroused cult suspicions. However that is only half the story. Zimmerman-Liu & Wright appear overly sympathetic to Witness Lee. They fail to note that, from the beginning Witness Lee adopted an adversarial approach to US Christianity. He thoroughly denounced all expressions of the Christian faith in the West. Witness Lee declared, “All of Christianity is deformed...and is also degraded.” He asserted that “Today the so-called churches in Christianity are Babylon.” The Roman Catholic Church was denigrated as “the Great Prostitute,” the Protestant denominations as “prostitutes.” W. Lee alleged that since the “Mother of the Prostitutes” is the apostate [Roman Catholic] church, the prostitutes, her daughters, should be all the different sects and groups in Christianity...The pure church life has no evil transmitted from the apostate church...[and] overcome[s]...all the degradations of degraded Christendom.” In his view, only W. Lee’s Local Church has the “pure church life;” only his “recovered church” is free of heresy & tradition. W. Lee proclaimed “The deviation from the Word to heresies and the exaltation of so many names...are the most striking signs of degraded Christianity. The return to the pure Word from all heresies & traditions & the exaltation of the Lord’s name...are the most inspiring testimony in the recovered church” --his Local Church. He stigmatized others as “heretical.” “Reformed theology...is the worst,” he pronounced, “The views of many...[Reformed] theologians are altogether heretical.” Such vociferous denunciations were staples in Witness Lee’s messages.

Clearly Witness Lee was no innocent victim when it came to denunciation and accusation. He chose conflict over conciliation. He denounced other Christian groups as heretical, apostate, deformed and degraded, etc. Are we surprised that some grew tired of “turning the other cheek” in the face of W. Lee’s repeated accusations? I think it is fair to say that Witness Lee “gave as good as he got.” By ignoring Jesus’ ‘golden rule’ (Mt. 7:12; Lk. 6:31), W. Lee reaped what he had sown. It seems reasonable to conclude that Witness Lee ought to share some responsibility for the Local Church’s ‘cult’ label.

As soon as LSM admits they're a culturally-flavored (biased) Christian sect, no better than the rest, they'll be able to join the "evangelical Christian" fold. As long as they call everyone else Great Whore Babylon, they'll continue to be called a (pseudo)Christian cult. You make your bed, and then you have to lie down in it.

[Jo S]

With all the tension here and on facebook, I'll post this article that I just read in hopes it'll be an encouragement for you guys as much as it was for me.

It's an amazing story of this wondeful women who died recently and saw the Lord Jesus in heaven. And then after being resuscitated, she asked for a notepad to write on scribbling the words. "IT'S REAL"!

Check it out.

https://www.azfamily.com/archives/ph...d53b49aea.html

Full video testimony (It's awesome):

https://www.facebook.com/reunioncomm...Q4NDA4NTMzMzU/

God bless you guys,

[aron]

From Jo Casteel FB page:

I know that once the CULT word starts getting thrown out it’s a VERY hard for the saints to wrap their brain abound that…I personally only viewed cults as being like these very extreme groups while I was in the local churches. I knew many outside of us called us that, but it all pointed to "satan's attack" never to the fact we actually might be one. I never once considered that perhaps if THAT many people said you were cult, that perhaps just perhaps it should be at least critically considered. People don't typically go around throwing that word at people. It's a loaded word with a lot of meaning.

Cults are on a continuum with some being extremely harmful like Jim Jones and Heaven's gate and some being more benign. What matters is "undue influence" the modern day term for having undergone thought reform. The common term that most people know is "brainwashed."

If the saints can read through my letter I actually give many examples of having undergone undue influence. Being led to believe that if you leave you are poisonous, divisive, and an opposer is undue influence.

Being led to believe that speaking up against an elder is going against God's deputy authority is undue influence.

Being led to believe that Witness Lee was the acting God on earth and the minister of the age is undue influence.

Living in fear and trembling about being "negative" is undue influence.

Believing that we are wrecked and ruined for God and that we can't meet anywhere else due to the ground of the oneness is undue influence.

NONE OF THOSE THINGS ARE TRUE. I'm not leprous, I'm not poisonous, I'm not divisive, and I'm not going against deputy authority. Witness Lee was not the minister of the age and the ground of the oneness is a false construct that has led to untold division, exclusion, and sectarianism.

The church in Laodicea thought she had all the riches. How many times have you heard a saint say, "WE HAVE ALL THE RICHES." Please consider this in light of the church in Loadicea. Do you really think that this super tiny group is going to be the ones to bring the Lord back? How proud does that sound?

Here is a link that explains undue influence and gives examples. When I checked the local churches against the BITE model from Steven Hassan I was blown away by how many matched up. Saints, it’s something to seriously consider.

https://freedomofmind.com/wp-content...uvyqTYmrBuBgS0

From the link: "Undue influence seeks nothing less than to disrupt an individual’s authentic identity and reconstruct it in the image of the cult leader."

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

From Jo Casteel FB page:

I know that once the CULT word starts getting thrown out it’s a VERY hard for the saints to wrap their brain abound that…

I have to agree with Jo. The word cult is very provocative indeed.

Ignoring the more modern connotations of the term "cult", according to Merriam-Webster, the root of the term is as follows;

"Cult, which shares an origin with culture and cultivate, comes from the Latin cultus, a noun with meanings ranging from "tilling, cultivation" to "training or education" to "adoration."

Even though I agree with the idea of the Local Churches being centered more around culture rather than the gospel I wouldn't use that term when trying to win people over. A more appropriate biblical term to describe the Lord's Recovery, in my view, is a "false gospel".

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I have to agree with Jo. The word cult is very provocative indeed.

Ignoring the more modern connotations of the term "cult", according to Merriam-Webster, the root of the term is as follows;

"Cult, which shares an origin with culture and cultivate, comes from the Latin cultus, a noun with meanings ranging from "tilling, cultivation" to "training or education" to "adoration."

Even if I agree with the idea of the Local Churches being centered more around culture rather than the gospel I wouldn't use that term when trying to win people over. A more appropriate biblical term to describe the Lord's Recovery, in my view, is a "false gospel".

Jo Casteel just hasn't seen it yet. They're too fresh out to see it.

[byHismercy]

First let me say, excuse me jumping to conclusions and especially excuse me for the labeling of anyone who doesn't identify as a LCer!

I get grumpy when I dwell on the con job that was put over on me and my kids. Forgive me for speaking so hastily, please. I am still working through the issue of my betrayal and anger towards the LC, and what I really want is to be in obedience of the Lord, and actually walking in forgiveness toward those who personally betrayed us, and the LC system at large.

When I consider what you first responders said regarding a lack of speaking the truth I love, I think I can see why you might feel that way, but I just realized, I gotta be transformed by the Lord to speak the truth in love, and I am going to try not to hold others to that when I fail so much myself. Besides, I think the Lord is able to use Pauls' speaking which is in faith in the Lord, and filtered through the truth he sees in the word. How do we know his emphasis is without love? Just by his delivery? I wonder how much we are conditioned coming out of the LC to see any negative speaking, and dissention....as absence of love.

What I see around me when I watch brothers and sisters calling out fallacious doctrine of various sorts in the wider body of Christ, is love. To correct error is love, love for Gods' children whom they don't want to see being mislead.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

First let me say, excuse me jumping to conclusions and especially excuse me for the labeling of anyone who doesn't identify as a LCer!

I get grumpy when I dwell on the con job that was put over on me and my kids. Forgive me for speaking so hastily, please. I am still working through the issue of my betrayal and anger towards the LC, and what I really want is to be in obedience of the Lord, and actually walking in forgiveness toward those who personally betrayed us, and the LC system at large.

When I consider what you first responders said regarding a lack of speaking the truth I love, I think I can see why you might feel that way, but I just realized, I gotta be transformed by the Lord to speak the truth in love, and I am going to try not to hold others to that when I fail so much myself. Besides, I think the Lord is able to use Pauls' speaking which is in faith in the Lord, and filtered through the truth he sees in the word. How do we know his emphasis is without love? Just by his delivery? I wonder how much we are conditioned coming out of the LC to see any negative speaking, and dissention....as absence of love.

What I see around me when I watch brothers and sisters calling out fallacious doctrine of various sorts in the wider body of Christ, is love. To correct error is love, love for Gods' children whom they don't want to see being mislead.

I am thankful for my experience in the LC. The Lord led me in and the Lord led me out. I am thankful for every minute. The experiences helped me grow in life.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I am thankful for my experience in the LC. The Lord led me in and the Lord led me out. I am thankful for every minute. The experiences helped me grow in life.

I'm really glad for you, ZNP. I just feel totally betrayed by those I was close to there. I never really cared for 'the ministry' of Lee. I was completely for the fellowship, love and friendship I found there. I truly had no idea it was all conditional. Had nothing whatsoever to do with my faith in Jesus. When we were shunned, it was hardcore. A person very dear to me stopped speaking to me and pretended it was about her personal crisis ( loss of a loved one). Then another dear one gave us the same cold shoulder, unrelated to grief. We were played. For a long time I continued to reach out to them, not knowing the truth because they never told me the truth. I thought it was some offense of my doing. Folks I believed to be dear friends cut off communication with us without explaining why. Just ghosted us, me and my little kids. My kids loved these women so much because these LCers love bombed them too. Big time. And it probably didn't help that my husbands' work keeps us in localities so far removed from any real family members. So these people were our surrogate family. The one older lady we quite considered to be grandma. My kids would slip and call her Grandma occasionally. She was my kids' medical emergency contact number, in lieu of us the parents. I mean, I was totally deceived into thinking their care and fellowship was real. But it was all lies. The love is only for the people devoted to Lee and ministry. So what I really hope for is to warn all unsuspecting believers away from this wicked Local Lee Church and the propagation of deception going on there.

[HERn]

Yes, it's heartbreaking. I had an "elder" tell me to my face while having fellowship over a meal that "we don't have friends in the church life." It was then I realized that there are only fellow followers of Lee in the LC, your devotion to the Lord Jesus means nothing to them if you stop following Lee.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by HERn

Yes, it's heartbreaking. I had an "elder" tell me to my face while having fellowship over a meal that "we don't have friends in the church life." It was then I realized that there are only fellow followers of Lee in the LC, your devotion to the Lord Jesus means nothing to them if you stop following Lee.

Yes, HERn, it is heartbreaking. When I first heard the doctrine against having natural affection, or friendships, I dismissed it instantly as not being scriptural, at all. I never saw that in scripture. It NEVER dawned on me that I might be surrounded by people who took that teaching to heart, believed it, agreed with it, decided to adopt it as a truth. I was completely naive. It is my nature to be silent vs. bold, also, when questions arise. I guess I need to really train myself out of that kind of quiet acquiescence. Because now I see that remaining silent on it was taken as a going along with. Although even that behavior was suggested to me as appropriate, wasn't it. I mean, to dissent, that would be fleshly, rebellious.....

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Yes, HERn, it is heartbreaking. When I first heard the doctrine against having natural affection, or friendships, I dismissed it instantly as not being scriptural, at all. I never saw that in scripture. It NEVER dawned on me that I might be surrounded by people who took that teaching to heart, believed it, agreed with it, decided to adopt it as a truth. I was completely naive. It is my nature to be silent vs. bold, also, when questions arise. I guess I need to really train myself out of that kind of quiet acquiescence. Because now I see that remaining silent on it was taken as a going along with. Although even that behavior was suggested to me as appropriate, wasn't it. I mean, to dissent, that would be fleshly, rebellious.....

This teaching, passed down from the Brethren, and errantly inferred from the OT sacrifices, was developed to minimize the losses after public excommunications. Exclusive systems quickly learned that it was best that their followers must only be loyal to headquarters, and it was not safe to trust any other relationship, even family.

Didn't Paul warn Timothy that in the last days difficult times will come? That even Christians will be "without natural affection?" (II Tim 3)

[Melo]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

First let me say, excuse me jumping to conclusions and especially excuse me for the labeling of anyone who doesn't identify as a LCer!

I get grumpy when I dwell on the con job that was put over on me and my kids. Forgive me for speaking so hastily, please. I am still working through the issue of my betrayal and anger towards the LC, and what I really want is to be in obedience of the Lord, and actually walking in forgiveness toward those who personally betrayed us, and the LC system at large.

Sorry this is a late response I forgot about this forum BUT I really appreciated reading this comment, and I can only hope to follow this path as well in my Christian walk. It's very easy to dwell in anger; I also let my personal feelings towards Paul affect how I viewed his content. While I still don't agree with his method of speaking at campuses/public locations, I'm sure there is some truth in his other videos concerning LC ideology.

If it helps, you are doing much better than many people who might have been in your shoes. Many people would be complacent to simply wallow in how they have been wronged and never go on to forgiveness. I hope I can do that someday as well.

[Melo]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Melo, if your Christian walk was contingent upon financial stability I believe you'll be in for a rough time. I think the bigger issue is fearing your parents will not support you if you voiced your concerns or stopped attending meetings altogether. Paul and ByHisMercy both found the courage to leave the LC's. Rather then criticizing them perhaps you can learn from them. They have more to offer you than you may think.

Of course I am worried how my parents will react but I don't appreciate you assuming my situation, my Christian walk, and my courage is comparable to those who are not me. Sure I guess I could leave the LC, be cut off financially, attempt to attend college while working full-time, find new living arrangements, and drown in debt etc. I guess that would me courageous. But that would also make me an idiot.

Further, I never criticized nor intended to criticize ByHisMercy. As for Paul's content, any public content is subject to criticism. My major criticism was simply I don't agree with his method of evangelizing. Maybe it's a generational difference, but I don't think any of my non-Christian friends would be swayed by this kind 'Sinners in the Hands of Angry God' rhetoric. It doesn't even matter if Paul is right, all they'll see is a lunatic Christian who'll make a hilarious viral video. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, I'm just saying that's what I feel after watching his content.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Melo

Of course I am worried how my parents will react but I don't appreciate you assuming my situation, my Christian walk, and my courage is comparable to those who are not me. Sure I guess I could leave the LC, be cut off financially, attempt to attend college while working full-time, find new living arrangements, and drown in debt etc. I guess that would me courageous. But that would also make me an idiot.

Further, I never criticized nor intended to criticize ByHisMercy. As for Paul's content, any public content is subject to criticism. My major criticism was simply I don't agree with his method of evangelizing. Maybe it's a generational difference, but I don't think any of my non-Christian friends would be swayed by this kind 'Sinners in the Hands of Angry God' rhetoric. It doesn't even matter if Paul is right, all they'll see is a lunatic Christian who'll make a hilarious viral video. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, I'm just saying that's what I feel after watching his content.

My opinion is to lay low, let your parents pay for your education. At the same time start checking out other groups and fellowship with other Christians. Also, pray that God would prepare your parents' hearts for whatever conversation you eventually have with them. Be a good son/daughter, but start learning how to live your own life. Parents expect their children will question things and find their own place in life. Love and cherish them, but learn to walk the path the Lord has set before you.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

My opinion is to lay low, let your parents pay for your education. At the same time start checking out other groups and fellowship with other Christians. Also, pray that God would prepare your parents' hearts for whatever conversation you eventually have with them. Be a good son/daughter, but start learning how to live your own life. Parents expect their children will question things and find their own place in life. Love and cherish them, but learn to walk the path the Lord has set before you.

Melo, I definitely agree with HERn's advice. You are in the midst of a transitional time -- not completely a dependent child and not quite on your own. Nothing, not even your parents' church, should get in the way of the love between parents and children.

[Adelphos]

Proverbs 28:1......The righteousnes are as bold as a lion. This preacher tells it like it is. After almost a year in the deception of the LC I knew it was the DOCTRINE that was the most dangerous thing about them. They say it's not the "little god doctrine" but it sounds exactly like it. Dr. Voddie Baucham taught me [The Word of God is like a caged lion, you don't have to defend it. You just have to let it loose.] There was a common idea in this LC that God needed humans. A member was there since the 80's and read all these WL related theologians etc. after I showed him Acts 17:25 his arguement was completely demolished. I'm very proud of all you here that know good doctrine and His Word. So easy to shut down thier ridiculous LC positions.

[Melo]

Ohio & HERn: Thank you for this advice! You have no idea how much it helps to hear other people say that. I want to be honest with my parents about why I'm leaving, and do so in the least disrespectful way possible. But if I left now I don't think I could articulate myself well enough to fully convey how I feel about Lee and some of the practices of the church. In the meantime I will definitely spend some time looking into other churches/groups in my area, hopefully they'll be less mad if I already have a new group I'm meeting with as opposed to not meeting at all.

[kappagamma]

Originally Posted by Melo

Of course I am worried how my parents will react but I don't appreciate you assuming my situation, my Christian walk, and my courage is comparable to those who are not me. Sure I guess I could leave the LC, be cut off financially, attempt to attend college while working full-time, find new living arrangements, and drown in debt etc. I guess that would me courageous. But that would also make me an idiot.

Further, I never criticized nor intended to criticize ByHisMercy. As for Paul's content, any public content is subject to criticism. My major criticism was simply I don't agree with his method of evangelizing. Maybe it's a generational difference, but I don't think any of my non-Christian friends would be swayed by this kind 'Sinners in the Hands of Angry God' rhetoric. It doesn't even matter if Paul is right, all they'll see is a lunatic Christian who'll make a hilarious viral video. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, I'm just saying that's what I feel after watching his content.

*****applause*****

[MarsVolta]

I am sorry HisMercy as I could never applaud Texas Street Preacher as the first video that appears on his YouTube Page is hateful beyond all belief. It is more than obvious this man is disturbed. He does make very good points about the LC and LSM but then goes a step further into Westboro Baptist Church territory about "Cucks" and anti gay. I did not leave this following to follow someone even more hateful.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by MarsVolta

I am sorry HisMercy as I could never applaud Texas Street Preacher as the first video that appears on his YouTube Page is hateful beyond all belief. It is more than obvious this man is disturbed. He does make very good points about the LC and LSM but then goes a step further into Westboro Baptist Church territory about "Cucks" and anti gay. I did not leave this following to follow someone even more hateful.

Hear! Hear! Amen!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I am thankful for my experience in the LC. The Lord led me in and the Lord led me out. I am thankful for every minute. The experiences helped me grow in life.

Me too! As I look back, everything was as it should be for me. In other words, the Great Shepherd guided me where He needed me to be. At the right time (1988 for me) He guided us out.

There were some very solid and high things of Christ conveyed to me in the 70s & 80s while part of the LC! But granted, since then He has also worked in me and shown me several shortcomings of the LC's teachings. Probably the biggest thing was seeing the main key to understanding God - and to unlocking the true meaning of the Bible - was simply His love for us. And through that I saw that many of the LC's teachings and practice were not so grounded in love and thereby fell short of the truth . . .

[Raptor]

Mr. Texas Street Preacher unfortunately does not believe that christians are born of God, that we are actually sons of God. He says that being born of God in the Bible means only to have a moral renewal.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Mr. Texas Street Preacher unfortunately does not believe that christians are born of God, that we are actually sons of God. He says that being born of God in the Bible means only to have a moral renewal.

And there didn't seem to be much joy in his speaking - at least the little that I was able to watch.

The T-shirt, "FEAR GOD," seems to me to be a big telling factor. While I don't dismiss that we humans need to be in absolute awe, reverence and respect of God (and yes, ultimately the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom), His love is what He's shown me more clearly as being his main, defining characteristic. "God IS love." "Perfect love casts out all fear."

God can use it all - and certainly does use fear to bring sinners to Himself (which is actually love). But nowhere does it say specifically that God is fear. Just my buck two ninety eight . . .

[Truthseeker]

Full time training center of brainwashing cult. Here testimony of former local church's member and his experience with FTTA : https://youtu.be/b6MBmgYAGCo

[Adelphos]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Full time training center of brainwashing cult. Here testimony of former local church's member and his experience with FTTA : https://youtu.be/b6MBmgYAGCo

Wow! Thank you. What LIARS they are. I was told they study books of the bible in depth. It is really indoctrination! Conformity brain washing. This video needs to be seen. Very important insight into the working of the organization on the minds of the members.

Studies were performed on the LC by scholars. The exact people who do not give a **** about your feelings and has determined that the LC expressed no characteristics of a cult. What is a cult you ask? A simple Google search (which is free, btw) can answer that question. Here! Lemme do it for you: http://cultresearch.org/help/charact...ed-with-cults/

All of which these LC do not express. And when their people started idolizing, they were reminded that it is a big no no in God's eyes to idolize anything including them. So tell me, what do you plan on spewing next?

All I hear when you say stuff like this is: I call everything I don't understand evil rather than admitting that I'm an idiot.

[UntoHim]

Ok, friend. Thanks for coming on the forum and giving this challenge.

Let's go over the list from the website you referenced one by one, ok?

*The group displays an excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader, and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

The Local Church of Witness Lee fits this one to a T. So you would deny that many (most?) Local Church members display an excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to Witness Lee? Are the teachings and practices established by Witness Lee and his closest followers not treated as "recovered" truth?

Maybe you yourself have freed yourself from this dynamic which is so prevalent in the Local Church. If so, praise God for this! But this would not change the object fact that the person and work of Witness Lee are treated with the same level of respect and even adoration as the Word of God.
-

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

*The group displays an excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader, and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

I would also point to the 1986 "letter of allegiance" to Witness Lee, signed by over 400 leading brothers, in which they say:

We repudiate all differences among the churches, and all indifference toward the ministry, the ministry office, and the other churches. We agree that the church in our place be identical with all the local churches throughout the earth.

We also agree to follow your leading as the one who has brought us God’s New Testament economy and has led us into its practice. We agree that this leading is indispensable to our oneness and acknowledge the one trumpet in the Lord’s ministry and the one wise master builder among us.

So I guess Witness Lee, what he says and does, (i.e., his "leading") is "indispensable" to the local church. Those aren't our words. Those aren't solely our claims. Those are the proclaimed words of a vast group of the ones leading the local church. So, so far, it seems like item #1 does in fact point to the local church having this cult-like characteristic.

[UntoHim]

*Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

*The group has a polarized, us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

Wow. It's hard to believe this guy didn't have the Local Church in mind when writing this!

"Questioning, doubt and dissent" are more than just discouraged, they are considered to be "eating from the wrong tree" and even "touching death". Any objective person would consider such a repressive atmosphere as, at the very least, extremely unhealthy, and by many Christians considered to be cultic.

The Local Church of Witness Lee is among the most polarizing, "us-versus-them" thinking group that I have ever come in contact with. The real sad truth is that they do not only have this kind of attitude towards their fellow man - they have this attitude towards their fellow believers in the Body of Christ. May God have mercy.
-

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Studies were performed on the LC by scholars. The exact people who do not give a **** about your feelings and has determined that the LC expressed no characteristics of a cult.

Also, unregistered, are you referring to CRI's "We Were Wrong" here?

Firstly, what CRI did was defend four contentious doctrines/practices of the local church. The veracity or falseness of those doctrines/practices has nothing to do with whether it is a cult or not. CRI's work was one big distraction from the actual cult issue.

Secondly, there is a tiiiiiiiiny font little footnote that CRI writes on page 13, saying "Critics cite these controversies as corroboration that the LC is cultic......perhaps in some future issue we can address these matters, but they go beyond our scope here, which is focused on the allegation contained in the "open letter" to the LC and LSM."

So in other words, "We Were Wrong" was focused on the allegations contained in the open letter signed by the 70 scholars. That open letter was not a cult accusation, but was a call to renounce four errors in teaching and practice of the local church. That open letter was CRI's focus. Not determining whether the LC is a cult.

Hank has a personalized one-pager at the very back of the magazine, claiming the LC is neither a cult theologically nor sociologically. And yet the amount of ink he spends explaining what a cult is amounts to a total of a mere 8 half-lines in a 62 page magazine. They did not even begin to do a remotely thorough job on the cult stuff.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Also, unregistered, are you referring to CRI's "We Were Wrong" here?

... They did not even begin to do a remotely thorough job on the cult stuff.

Notable also is that NO former members were interviewed and/or quoted by Elliot Miller (deceased) in his one sided "We Were Wrong" article which can be viewed/downloaded here.

Nell

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Studies were performed on the LC by scholars. The exact people who do not give a **** about your feelings and has determined that the LC expressed no characteristics of a cult. What is a cult you ask? A simple Google search (which is free, btw) can answer that question. Here! Lemme do it for you: http://cultresearch.org/help/charact...ed-with-cults/

All of which these LC do not express. And when their people started idolizing, they were reminded that it is a big no no in God's eyes to idolize anything including them. So tell me, what do you plan on spewing next?

All I hear when you say stuff like this is: I call everything I don't understand evil rather than admitting that I'm an idiot.

Oh, I definitely know what my next research project is gonna be now. Thank you for this link.