1000 Years Discipline

05-12-2022, 09:25 PM

Is there any discussions, videos, or topics that will debunk the 1000 years discipline the in millennial kingdom?

gr8ful · 05-12-2022, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malaysian Observer

Is there any discussions, videos, or topics that will debunk the 1000 years discipline the in millennial kingdom?

The return of the literal 1000 Year Kingdom (i.e., "chiliasm") as a Reward or Punishment is a relatively new Christian doctrine, however, The Lord's Recovery is not the only group to teach this.

Nevertheless, there is a direct refutation of some of the key points that are used to convince us that saved Christians will face a thousand years of gnashing of teeth:

https://thelordsrecovery.org/archive...ine-version-1/

On the non-doctrinal side, there's how the teaching of the 1000 Years Reward / Punishment is used to instill fear of deviating from the "Vision," which just happens to be presented by one man, or now, one committee of men (the Blended Brothers). Fearing that we'll miss the reward or suffer 1000 of punishment if we dare go against "God's Deputy Authority" or consider attending a different church isn't a "Vision."

Timotheist · 05-13-2022, 04:10 AM

Whether or not W Lee was correct or not in his assertions about the Outer Darkness, I have to accept that there will be rewards and punishments at the first judgement.

Otherwise, why have a judgement at all?

So if posters want to pick on Lee on this topic, then I expect that “rewards and punishments” of the believers be defined by these same posters.

“No punishment” is not an answer.

Zezima · 05-13-2022, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malaysian Observer

Is there any discussions, videos, or topics that will debunk the 1000 years discipline the in millennial kingdom?

Is there any biblical evidence that objectively says there’s a 1,000 year discipline?

No.

Zezima · 05-13-2022, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Whether or not W Lee was correct or not in his assertions about the Outer Darkness, I have to accept that there will be rewards and punishments at the first judgement.

Otherwise, why have a judgement at all?

So if posters want to pick on Lee on this topic, then I expect that “rewards and punishments” of the believers be defined by these same posters.

“No punishment” is not an answer.

Reading your expectations and wishes of others bending to your beliefs is the punishment.

Trapped · 05-13-2022, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Reading your expectations and wishes of others bending to your beliefs is the punishment.

Rather than submitting the readers to snark that provides no benefit to anyone, could you instead respond to Timotheist's reasoning that a judgment makes no sense unless there are both rewards and punishments? Is his statement here sound or not? If not, why Biblically?

Notice he's not saying there is or isn't a 1000 year thing. He's just speaking of reward and punishment in general. Many throw away the 1000 year thing and claim there is no punishment at all.....that seems to be the pendulum swing he is trying to avoid.

Trapped

UntoHim · 05-14-2022, 09:40 AM

To my friend Zezima, there is not much of a serious controversy regarding reward and punishment for believers among orthodox biblical teachers, scholars and apologists. I believe if one is to take the plain reading of the actual teachings of the original, scripture writing apostles, especially Paul, everything points to the Millennial Kingdom being a time of reward for some, and punishment, or discipline as it were, for others. I think many Christian teachers, and for our purposes here, especially Nee and Lee, were very wrong about the reasons for the rewards, and even more wrong about the reasons for the discipline. Maybe we can sort some of this out on this thread.

To everyone else....If I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times...
Seriously, though, I think sometimes we concentrate too much on the number one thousand, and the mystery surrounding the when, where and how of all the punishments and rewards, all at the cost of missing the "forest" of what the Lord is asking of us in the here and now, for the "trees" of all the intrigue and mystery of who gets what punishment and who gets what reward, and the when and the how.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:8,9 ESV
For by χάρις (charis; grace good will, loving-kindness, favor of the merciful kindness by which God ) you have been σῴζω (sōzō; saved; keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction)
~
Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds.
Revelation 22:12 NLT
Bringing my μισθός (misthos; reward; wages earned) with me to repay all people according to their ἔργον (ergon; an act, a deed)
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Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.
2nd Timothy 4:8 ESV
The crown of righteousness στέφανος stephanos δικαιοσύνη dikaiosynē; (Crown of Righteousness) which the Lord, the righteous judge, will ἀποδίδωμι (apodidōmi; to requite, recompense in a good or a bad sense) to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his ἐπιφάνεια (epiphaneia; a manifestation, the advent of Christ; past or future appearing, brightness.)
~
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
2 Corinthians 5:10 ESV
So that each one may κομίζω (komizō; to get back, receive back) what is due for what he has (διά dia ὁ ho σῶμα sōma deeds in the body) whether ἀγαθός (agathos; good, excellent, distinguished, upright, honorable) εἴτε eite (or) κακός (kakos; bad, wrong, wicked, injurious, pernicious, destructive)

I think I'll keep my comments brief, and maybe let the verses I have posted here speak for themselves. Brothers and sisters, friends, readers, lurkers, the simple fact is that is we do not live and act as subjects of God's Kingdom today, then it should come as no big surprise that we will not enjoy the privileges and benefits of the Kingdom to come. If we do not submit our lives, our time, our energies, our heart and our minds to the righteous judge today, how could we possibly expect to have the privilege of receiving a crown of righteousness in the age to come? Every day, while we are still in this fleshly, earthly vessel, we are faced we choices - and these choices inevitably lead us to commit deeds that are "agathos" - good, excellent, distinguished, upright and honorable, or if we are not constantly on watch and on guard, they will lead us to commit deeds that are "kakos" - bad, wrong, wicked, injurious, pernicious and destructive. And the important thing to remember is that there will be a day of reckoning. If we live in outer darkness today, then maybe we will have to live in outer darkness for some period of time in the Kingdom to come. The Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. Are we willing to endure the discipline and chastising in this age, in order to receive a crown of righteousness in the age to come? If we do not accept, and even love, the Lord appearing to us to discipline and correct us today, how could we expect to be rewarded by him at his "epiphaneia" - his second advent at the dawn of the age to come?
(Many thanks to BlueLetterBible.Org)
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Sons to Glory! · 05-14-2022, 12:30 PM

I basically concur with UntoHim on this. And if you look at most of the verses in his post, they are about rewards. Much of what is conveyed by Paul seems to be more in line with rewards for running the race well. And the word "bema," translated by most as "Judgment Seat" also applied, according to my readings, to the place of authority used in the Olympic Games. It was from there that the judgments were made as to how contestants fared in the games - whether they won or not or whether someone should be disqualified (BTW - not about loss of salvation). Paul talks about this in 1st Corinthians 9:27.

For instance, we are now in the NBA playoff season. Our home team, the Phoenix Suns, are looking to win it all this year and are seriously geared-up for that, physically and emotionally. If they loose in the playoffs, there will be supreme disappointment. However, if they do lose, I don't think they are going to receive a formal punishment - the loss of the championship will be a hard enough "pill" to swallow by itself.

In the New Testament context, there are rewards . . . or the loss of rewards, but I don't see that it's so much in the way of outright punishment. That is, loosing the reward is a punishment in and of itself. For instance, if you were a member of the church in Laodicea, you might fully expect to win the reward, but find instead in that day, that while you thought you were a sure "winner," in fact you had let yourself not be in good shape for the race (poor, blind, wretched). Therefore there might be much anguish and even "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in such a situation, as you loose the expected reward.

There are many warnings in the Bible and the New Testament for believers, but I think warnings are there there to make us aware of the possibility of not gaining the reward. I think the main focus is to keep doing as Paul exhorts us, "forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." (Phil 3:13-14)

Zezima · 05-14-2022, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

To my friend Zezima, there is not much of a serious controversy regarding reward and punishment for believers among orthodox biblical teachers, scholars and apologists.

Yes, but we are talking about the 1,000-year discipline doctrine held by the Lord's Recovery. Not if there is reward and punishment.

The answer to the OP questions, the material that debunks this teaching, is simply the Bible itself. There is nowhere in the bible that says a group of believers will be cast into the outer darkness for 1,000 years.

This is from the ministry on the 1,000 years of outer darkness

Quote:

Whoever is cast into outer darkness will be cut off from the Lord, from His presence, from His fellowship, and from the glorious sphere in which the Lord will be.

-Life-Study of Matthew, Chapter 63, Section 4

This is from the Bible

Quote:

For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord

-Romans 8:35-39

While the bible says some will be cast into the outer darkness, it does not say it will be for 1,000 years. It doesn't say those cast in will be cut off from God, it doesn't even say those who are cast in are believers.

Look at the doctrine, what verses they use. Then look at the verses and see if those verses are saying the doctrine.

Timotheist · 05-15-2022, 11:49 AM

I think it is reasonable to assume that the punishment of the believer will last no longer than 1000 yrs….

But I don’t recall Lee insisting that everyone judged negatively will experience the entire 1000 years in prison.

And just what is the “Outer Darkness”, anyway?

Zezima · 05-15-2022, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I think it is reasonable to assume that the punishment of the believer will last no longer than 1000 yrs….

But I don’t recall Lee insisting that everyone judged negatively will experience the entire 1000 years in prison.

And just what is the “Outer Darkness”, anyway?

In the life study quote I posted, Lee is talking about people who are saved but didn’t gain enough Christ in their life. Those people are cast into outer darkness to be transformed further in order to meet the required about of Christ needed to be fully Transformed.

The Bible doesn’t talk about it this way. Also, how can someone be further transformed if they are “ be cut off from the Lord, from His presence, from His fellowship, and from the glorious sphere in which the Lord will be”

In the Lord’s Recovery you’re either..
1. An Overcomer, and enter into the millennium kingdom for a celebration.
2. Cast into outer darkness for not being an overcomer , and are dealt with for 1,000 years so you can reach maturity.

There are no other options in the Lord’s Recovery for believers.

UntoHim · 05-15-2022, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

There are no other options in the Lord’s Recovery for believers.

Yeah, there's another option...get the heck out of that place and find yourself a healthy church to fellowship, learn the Bible and grow in the Lord!

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Raptor · 05-16-2022, 07:38 AM

The idea of "1,000" year discipline for believers is in other circles called "Kingdom exclusion." Many Bible teachers have taught this with a solid Biblical basis. It does not refer to the loss of salvation, neither "not getting into heaven." It specifically views the Kingdom as the particular Kingdom of the Heavens the Lord Jesus willl establish on earth at His second coming. It will last 1,000 years, so it is also referred to as the Millenial Kingdom. After that, there will be eternity with a new heaven and a new earth.

The first person to teach kingdom exclusion was the apostle Paul as seen for example here:

Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:9-11.

For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Ephesians 5:5.

Zezima · 05-16-2022, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:9-11.

You left out verse 11 conveniently “ And such were some of you. But you were washed you were sanctified you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in by the spirit of our God“

Quote:

For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Ephesians 5:5.

Once again you’re miss using this verse and taking it out of context. You shouldn’t use a verse to prove a doctrine, but rather the doctrine should come from the verse.

Ephesians 5, is speaking to Christian’s already saved, giving them general instructions on holy living. Paul isn’t warning them about some future kingdom that they don’t have inheritance in, but rather the redemptive kingdom that saved believers inherit. The entire book of Ephesians is expounding how we being saved have inheritance of a kingdom and can walk & live daily in the kingdom.

Nowhere is Paul threatening believers that they will go to 1,000 years and be cut off. You’re reading an idea onto the text.

Sons to Glory! · 05-16-2022, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I think it is reasonable to assume that the punishment of the believer will last no longer than 1000 yrs….

But I don’t recall Lee insisting that everyone judged negatively will experience the entire 1000 years in prison.

And just what is the “Outer Darkness”, anyway?

I just don't see the concept of outright "punishment" for a believer being promoted, but again, rather a loss of rewards. (much like the anguish the Phoenix Suns are experiencing now)

My remembrance of Lee's teaching was either you're an overcomer or you'll get severely punished for 1,000 years, but that's just my recollection.

As to outer darkness, not sure, but I think it's safe to say it's not something we want! Our concepts about exactly what happens after this is life is so fuzzy! (. . . and some would equate hell with outer darkness, but even the traditional concept of eternal hell is probably not an accurately held belief)

Timotheist · 05-17-2022, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

There is nowhere in the bible that says a group of believers will be cast into the outer darkness for 1,000 years.

...

While the bible says some will be cast into the outer darkness, it does not say it will be for 1,000 years. It doesn't say those cast in will be cut off from God, it doesn't even say those who are cast in are believers.

OK I will bite and discuss the three passages in Matt. that speak of the outer darkness.

1) Jesus, marveling at the faith of the centurion, a Gentile:

11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(Mat*8:11-12*NAU)

From the context, is it pretty clear that the "sons of the kingdom" are members of OT Israel. Are these, who are separated from God during this time, doomed to eternal punishment?

No!

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
(Rom*11:25-29*NAU)

God promised to bring salvation to Israel, regardless of their faith! The 1000 year kingdom will be a reward to the faithful, but the others will still be saved.

Note the word "calling" here and how that word is used in the second citing.

2) The naked guest at the wedding:

10 "Those [servants] went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.
11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,
12 and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless.
13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
(Mat*22:10-14*NAU)

Whereas the first mention of the outer darkness is a punishment for the unfaithful of OT Israel, this passage clearly is dealing with NT Gentiles, who are part of the first resurrection. Like Israel, they are "called" to salvation, but were not "chosen" to participate in the 1000 kingdom.

To be "called" is to inherit eternal life, but to be "chosen" requires something more than just being called. The kingdom is a reward for faithful servants.

The terms "called" and "chosen" are best understood with the book of Exodus as the defining context.

1) All of Israel were "called" out of Egypt.
2) But only Levi was "chosen" to serve the Lord as priests.

Servants are distinguished as wearing robes, whereas the called did not wear robes. The naked guest will be saved, but will not participate in the reward reserved for the Chosen.

3) The parable of the talents. From the context, the servants in this passage are not defined as either Israelites or Gentiles. I take this to mean it refers to both, to anyone who is expected to serve the Lord:

29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
30 "Throw out the worthless [servant] into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat*25:29-30*NAU)

The lazy servant will suffer the same punishment of the called.

Nowhere are unbelievers referred to as "servants", as they are neither called nor chosen.

So I inevitably conclude that the Outer Darkness is a non-reward for God's elect, whether they be OT Israel or NT Christians.

Zezima, I do not expect you to be swayed by my words. I will simply encourage you to do more research.

Raptor · 05-18-2022, 07:38 AM

The Lord Jesus clearly described that a believer that lives unfaithfully or evilly will face harsh consequences:

But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. Then He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:49-51.

Many christians don´t believe this, so they twist the meaning and say that the servant is not saved. Impossible. The Lord does not call unbelievers "servants", and only believers would address Jesus as Lord, and call Him Master. An unbeliever DOES NOT BELIEVE there is a Lord, let alone call Him Master.

Sons to Glory! · 05-18-2022, 10:02 AM

I think it's abundantly clear that the numerous warnings in the NT for believers not growing (running the race properly), shows that there is certainly accountability for what we do with this grace (favor/supply) we've been given. And this does not mean He sets the bar exceedingly high. We need to keep in mind the Lord's praise in the Matthew 25 parable, which says to be "faithful in a FEW things" and as a result being told, "Well done good and faithful servant . . . enter into the joy of your Lord!"

Zezima · 05-18-2022, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

The Lord Jesus clearly described that a believer that lives unfaithfully or evilly will face harsh consequences:

But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. Then He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:49-51.

Many christians don´t believe this, so they twist the meaning and say that the servant is not saved. Impossible. The Lord does not call unbelievers "servants", and only believers would address Jesus as Lord, and call Him Master. An unbeliever DOES NOT BELIEVE there is a Lord, let alone call Him Master.

Is your whole account dedicated to posting Bible verses out of context? Once again the verses you posted are out of context. Jesus is telling a parable, he’s not calling anyone anything.

Context is so important, and the recovery loves to remove that to justify their doctrines.

Raptor · 05-20-2022, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

You left out verse 11 conveniently “ And such were some of you. But you were washed you were sanctified you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in by the spirit of our God“
Once again you’re miss using this verse and taking it out of context. You shouldn’t use a verse to prove a doctrine, but rather the doctrine should come from the verse. Ephesians 5, is speaking to Christian’s already saved, giving them general instructions on holy living. Paul isn’t warning them about some future kingdom that they don’t have inheritance in, but rather the redemptive kingdom that saved believers inherit. The entire book of Ephesians is expounding how we being saved have inheritance of a kingdom and can walk & live daily in the kingdom. Nowhere is Paul threatening believers that they will go to 1,000 years and be cut off. You’re reading an idea onto the text.

No, you are reading it wrong. Paul is addressing believers and warning believers. Together with the warning there is the consequence of not heeding the warning: "will not inherit the kingdom o f God." The phrase, "And such were some of you," does not annul the warning or the consequence.

It makes no sense whatsoever to say that he was warning believers about what could have happened to them in the past. Neither then is Paul saying, "some of you were these things, but go ahead go back, be sexually immoral, be an idolater, continue in adultery...you will still inherit the kingdom of God." No. Paul is saying, "some of you were these things, so don´t go back, I warn you, you will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Timotheist · 05-20-2022, 04:44 AM

Agree with Raptor.

And to add this: just because Paul said this to a small group of Christians does NOT mean he is speaking of ALL believers.

Ohio · 05-20-2022, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Is your whole account dedicated to posting Bible verses out of context? Once again the verses you posted are out of context. Jesus is telling a parable, he’s not calling anyone anything.

Context is so important, and the recovery loves to remove that to justify their doctrines.

This line of reasoning reminds me of a comment made to me several years ago while using Galatians to warn a Christian friend not to celebrate Jewish holidays and customs. The response was, “why are you reading other people’s mail?”

I’m all for ascertaining scriptural context, something sorely needed in the Recovery, but discrediting every book in the Bible as “other people’s mail” is just crazy.

Zezima · 05-20-2022, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

No, you are reading it wrong. Paul is addressing believers and warning believers. Together with the warning there is the consequence of not heeding the warning: "will not inherit the kingdom o f God." The phrase, "And such were some of you," does not annul the warning or the consequence.

It makes no sense whatsoever to say that he was warning believers about what could have happened to them in the past. Neither then is Paul saying, "some of you were these things, but go ahead go back, be sexually immoral, be an idolater, continue in adultery...you will still inherit the kingdom of God." No. Paul is saying, "some of you were these things, so don´t go back, I warn you, you will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Happy to be corrected on this, but..

The section of the chapter being referenced is about believers taking other believers to secular court. Paul then argues that since believers will one day judge the world, they should be able to judge disputes amount themselves. That it would be better for a believer to be defrauded rather then have unbelievers to settle an dispute between believers in Christ. Why? Because unbelievers will not inherit the Kingdom of God, they are known for by the sins they do. Believers, however, have been cleansed from those sins and are now known only as belonging to Christ. While believers may fall into those sins, their identity is in christ.

This is how I view that portion chapter 6. It’s a warning and a stern passage about why we shouldn’t take fellow believers to court and has the rational for that message. I don’t see it as a warning about believers who are saved by Grace, that they will be cast into an out darkness for 1,000 years to be transformed further.

Zezima · 05-20-2022, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Happy to be corrected on this, but..

The section of the chapter being referenced is about believers taking other believers to secular court. Paul then argues that since believers will one day judge the world, they should be able to judge disputes amount themselves. That it would be better for a believer to be defrauded rather then have unbelievers to settle an dispute between believers in Christ. Why? Because unbelievers will not inherit the Kingdom of God, they are known for by the sins they do. Believers, however, have been cleansed from those sins and are now known only as belonging to Christ. While believers may fall into those sins, their identity is in christ.

This is how I view that portion chapter 6. It’s a warning and a stern passage about why we shouldn’t take fellow believers to court and has the rational for that message. I don’t see it as a warning about believers who are saved by Grace, that they will be cast into an out darkness for 1,000 years to be transformed further.

Adding onto this because I found something else...

1 Corinthians 6:1 Recovery Version
Does any one of you who has a case against another dare to be judged before the unrighteous* and not before the saints?
*The unbelievers, who are unrighteous, unjust, before God. (Footnote from Recovery Version)

1 Corinthians 6:9 Recovery Version
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit* the Kingdom of God?...
*To inherit the Kingdom in the next age is a reward to the saints who seek righteousness. (Footnote from Recovery Version)

The recovery version changes who the "unrighteous" are in order to mold the text to fit their doctrine. In verse 1, they say the unrighteous are unbelievers, and in verse 9 they say the unrighteous are believers. But in between those verses, Paul never changes who the "unrighteous" are.

This is how you can debunk this doctrine, is by showing how it's made up and not found in the biblical text. The footnotes say one thing, but the bible says something different.

Bible-believer · 05-20-2022, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

The idea of "1,000" year discipline for believers is in other circles called "Kingdom exclusion." Many Bible teachers have taught this with a solid Biblical basis. It does not refer to the loss of salvation, neither "not getting into heaven." It specifically views the Kingdom as the particular Kingdom of the Heavens the Lord Jesus willl establish on earth at His second coming. It will last 1,000 years, so it is also referred to as the Millenial Kingdom. After that, there will be eternity with a new heaven and a new earth.

The first person to teach kingdom exclusion was the apostle Paul as seen for example here:

Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:9-11.

For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Ephesians 5:5.

The kingdom of Heaven is not the Kingdom of God. KOH refers to a physical, literal, Davidic Messiah Kingdom with Jesus Christ as the King reigning on the earth for 1000 years. The Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost."

What you said here confounds the two kingdoms as most Christians do.

UntoHim · 05-21-2022, 09:53 AM

Hey Bible-believer, if "most Christians" are confounding the two kingdoms, maybe it's because the gospel writers and the Lord Jesus himself confounded the two kingdoms:

In Matthew 19 the terms kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are used interchangeably WITHIN THE SPAN OF TWO CONSECUTIVE VERSES;

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."

There are quite a number of other places that the terms kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are used interchangeably:

Matthew 11:11
"Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
cf:
Luke 7:28
I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

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Matthew 13:11
And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given."
cf:
Mark 4:11
And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables".

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Matthew 13:24
He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field,"
cf:
Mark 4:26
And he said, “The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground"

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There are quite a number of other instances in the canonical gospels in which the terms kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are used interchangeably.

I, for one, believe that the Millennial Kingdom will be a physical, literal Kingdom where Christ reigns here on earth, I can't see how one could read the first few verses of Revelation 20 and not come to this conclusion. I have views on the "pre-trib" and "post-trib" controversy, but this is probably beyond the purview of our forum. The main thing that I would stress is that according to the Gospels and the writings of the apostles, we are not to be concerned too much with the future coming Kingdom (be it of Heaven or of God), but we should be busy "going about the Father's business". We have the Lord Jesus as our example. We have the early apostles, disciples and believers as our example. We have the early Christians who were persecuted and even martyred as our example. We have countless saints down through the ages who have left us a well-worn path that will lead us straight to the Kingdom of God and of the Heavens. And finally "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us." Heb 12:1

Brothers, sisters, friends, lurkers...we are in a race. God will not be mocked. If we are disqualified in this race in this age, how could we possibly think that we will be rewarded in the age(s) to come. To be sure, judgement will come, and so will the Kingdom of God and of Heaven. But first, judgment must begin at the house of God today. We cannot serve two masters, for these are masters of two different kingdoms. We can serve and worship the one true God, or we can serve the god of this world who has blinded the eyes of the unbelievers, and also those entrapped within false religion. Many of our dear brothers and sisters in the Local Church of Witness Lee have been blinded. They have been deceived into believing that the kingdom that Witness Lee built is the kingdom of God. They have been deceived into believing that their reward and punishment will be based upon the person and work of a mere man and his so-called ministry of the age. But we know better now, don't we? Maybe if we try a little harder to live within the Kingdom of God today, God may use us to reach those who have been blinded by unbelief and false religion.
-

Sons to Glory! · 05-21-2022, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Hey Bible-believer, if "most Christians" are confounding the two kingdoms, maybe it's because the gospel writers and the Lord Jesus himself confounded the two kingdoms:

In Matthew 19 the terms kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are used interchangeably WITHIN THE SPAN OF TWO CONSECUTIVE VERSES;

Brothers, sisters, friends, lurkers...we are in a race. God will not be mocked. If we are disqualified in this race in this age how could we possibly think that we will be rewarded in the age(s) to come"? To be sure, judgement will come, and so will the Kingdom of God and of Heaven. But first, judgment must begin at the house of God today. We cannot serve two masters, for these are masters of two different kingdoms. We can serve and worship the one true God, or we can serve the god of this world who has blinded the eyes of the unbelievers, and also those entrapped within false religion. Many of our dear brothers and sisters in the Local Church of Witness Lee have been blinded. They have been deceived into believing that the kingdom that Witness Lee built is the kingdom of God. They have been deceived into believing that their reward and punishment will be based upon the person and work of a mere man and his so-called ministry of the age. But we know better now, don't we?

Very well said - both regarding the kingdom or God and the kingdom of heaven being the same; and the part about accountability for believers concerning what we do with this incredible grace we've been given! As has been stated before by various ones, I don't belief the intense punishment for believers who are "disqualified" - as was promoted by WL - is scriptural let alone supposedly having to be in the LC to be qualified to be in the kingdom!

However, over & over the NT exhorts and encourages us to run the race looking away to the goal of the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. In this life we do fail often, but it's not about the failure - it's the getting back up by looking away to Jesus ("they over came him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony"). I believe He honors that - getting back up and and then being faithful in the few things He's given us individually to be good stewards of.

Zezima · 05-21-2022, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

However, over & over the NT exhorts and encourages us to run the race looking away to the goal of the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. In this life we do fail often, but it's not about the failure - it's the getting back up by looking away to Jesus ("they over came him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony"). I believe He honors that - getting back up and and then being faithful in the few things He's given us individually to be good stewards of.

I agree here, but for the sake of this thread. Let’s focus on the 1,000 year doctrine that the original poster is asking about. This isn’t about punishment/reward but about that specific doctrine. A doctrine that is extremely controlling.

Raptor · 05-24-2022, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I just don't see the concept of outright "punishment" for a believer being promoted, but again, rather a loss of rewards. (much like the anguish the Phoenix Suns are experiencing now)

Although "loss of rewards" will definitely be a negative consequence at the judgement seat for some, it is but a small or minor view the Bible uses to describe what a negative judgment would be like. Just for starters, we will appear before the Judge of all the living and the dead (2 Tim. 4:1). "Believers must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad." Not making the basketball playoffs is miniscule, compared to receiving what is due to you for the bad things done as a believer before the Righteous Judge, King of the universe. We are talking about sinning against an eternal, righteous and holy God, not just underperfomring at a temporal, worldly, meaningless sporting event.

Some things the believers do are so bad in God´s eyes, that He does not wait for them to appear before the judgement seat. He judges them beforehand. Remember what happened to Ananias and Sapphira, "You have not lied to men, but to God!” On hearing these words, Ananias fell down and died. And great fear came over all who heard what had happened.....At that instant she fell down at his feet and died. And great fear came over the whole church and all who heard about these events." Acts 5.

Does that sound like just a "loss of rewards",,...or losing the playoffs?

Sons to Glory! · 05-24-2022, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Does that sound like just a "loss of rewards",,...or losing the playoffs?

To be sure, the example of a sporting event loss was a weak, temporal metaphor at best . . . just meant to make a point that anguish is felt by simply loosing a reward. And there is also shame possible (as you allude to) as 1st John 2:28 says, "So now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears we may have boldness and not be ashamed before Him at His coming."

Whatever happens on the negative side, it certainly won't be good or pleasant. I just believe that there is not outright wrath upon believers, therefore, not "punishment" per se.

Raptor · 05-24-2022, 12:18 PM

This is what the Spirit clearly and explicitly states in Revelation 2 and 3 that will happen to those believers who do not repent, who are not victorious. (Grammar changed to reflect negative consequence

But if you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. If you do not overcome, I will not grant you the right to eat from the tree of life in the Paradise of God.

If you are not faithful even unto death, I will not give you the crown of life.

I will come to you shortly and wage war against you with the sword of My mouth. If you do not overcome, I will not give you the hidden manna. I will not give you a white stone inscribed with a new name.

Behold, I will cast her onto a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her will suffer great tribulation. Then I will strike her children dead, and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. If you do not overcome and continue in My work until the end, I will not give you authority over the nations.

I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you. Some of you are not worthy, so you will not walk with Me in white. Like them, he who does not overcome will not be dressed in white, and I will blot out your name from the Book of Life, and will not confess your name before My Father and His angels.

Because you have not kept My command to persevere, I will not keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. If you do not overcome I will not make you a pillar in the temple of My God, I will not write on you the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.

I am about to vomit you out of My mouth! I will not come in and dine with you, and you with Me. If you do not overcome, I will not grant you the right to sit with Me on My throne.

Timotheist · 05-24-2022, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

This is what the Spirit clearly and explicitly states in Revelation 2 and 3 that will happen to those believers who do not repent, who are not victorious. (Grammar changed to reflect negative consequence

But if you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. If you do not overcome, I will not grant you the right to eat from the tree of life in the Paradise of God.

If you are not faithful even unto death, I will not give you the crown of life.

I will come to you shortly and wage war against you with the sword of My mouth. If you do not overcome, I will not give you the hidden manna. I will not give you a white stone inscribed with a new name.

Behold, I will cast her onto a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her will suffer great tribulation. Then I will strike her children dead, and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. If you do not overcome and continue in My work until the end, I will not give you authority over the nations.

I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you. Some of you are not worthy, so you will not walk with Me in white. Like them, he who does not overcome will not be dressed in white, and I will blot out your name from the Book of Life, and will not confess your name before My Father and His angels.

Because you have not kept My command to persevere, I will not keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. If you do not overcome I will not make you a pillar in the temple of My God, I will not write on you the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.

I am about to vomit you out of My mouth! I will not come in and dine with you, and you with Me. If you do not overcome, I will not grant you the right to sit with Me on My throne.

Good stuff, Raptor. I am gonna steal this idea.

Although you left one out: “If you do not overcome, you will be hurt by the second death”

Raptor · 05-29-2022, 01:34 PM

Reward and discipline at the Lord´s coming back with His Kingdom:

Another parable clearly showing us that Chrsit, the King, will come back to establish His kingdom and reward the labor of His good and faithful servants with authority, reigning over cities. Yet the servant that did not labor faithfully will be called wicked and even what he has will be taken away from him. They are all believers: they are all called servants and the Lord would not entrust His business to unbelievers and in addition they all call Him Master.

A man of noble birth went to a distant country to lay claim to his kingship and then return. 13Beforehand, he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. ‘Conduct business with this until I return,’ he said.

14But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We do not want this man to rule over us.’
When he returned from procuring his kingship, he summoned the servants to whom he had given the money, to find out what each one had earned.

16The first servant came forward and said, ‘Master, your mina has produced ten more minas.’

17His master replied, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very small matter, you shall have authority over ten cities.’

18The second servant came and said, ‘Master, your mina has made five minas.’

19And to this one he said, ‘You shall have authority over five cities.’

20Then another servant came and said, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have laid away in a piece of cloth. 21For I was afraid of you, because you are a harsh man. You withdraw what you did not deposit and reap what you did not sow.’

22His master replied, ‘You wicked servant, I will judge you by your own words. So you knew that I am a harsh man, withdrawing what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then did you not deposit my money in the bank, and upon my return I could have collected it with interest?’

Then he told those standing by, ‘Take the mina from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’

25‘Master,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’

26He replied, ‘I tell you that everyone who has will be given more; but the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Luke 9:12-26.

Zezima · 05-29-2022, 05:00 PM

None of these verses say anything about born again Christians being cast into 1,000 years of darkness to experience separation from God in order to be transformed more because they underperformed in life by not gaining enough Christ.

Sons to Glory! · 05-29-2022, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

None of these verses say anything about born again Christians being cast into 1,000 years of darkness to experience separation from God in order to be transformed more because they underperformed in life by not gaining enough Christ.

I agree . . . has this not been established in this thread (and the numerous other times it's been discussed on this forum)? At least in my mind it is, as there are no clear references to 1000 years in outer darkness for believers to get transformed, etc.

Raptor - are you agreeing or disagreeing?

UntoHim · 05-30-2022, 12:32 PM

They can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that Raptor and Timothiest are trying establish that "born again Christians being cast into 1,000 years of darkness to experience separation from God in order to be transformed more because they underperformed in life by not gaining enough Christ." I think they are trying to establish, or confirm as it were, that the Millennial Kingdom will be a time of punishment (discipline) for some believers and a time of reward for others. I think this teaching has a strong biblical basis, but to be sure, it was twisted and corrupted Nee, Lee and quite a number of others.

I think gr8ful really hit the nail on the head on the 2nd post of the thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by gr8ful

On the non-doctrinal side, there's how the teaching of the 1000 Years Reward / Punishment is used to instill fear of deviating from the "Vision," which just happens to be presented by one man, or now, one committee of men (the Blended Brothers). Fearing that we'll miss the reward or suffer 1000 of punishment if we dare go against "God's Deputy Authority" or consider attending a different church....

Which was kind of my point here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Many of our dear brothers and sisters in the Local Church of Witness Lee have been blinded. They have been deceived into believing that the kingdom that Witness Lee built is the kingdom of God. They have been deceived into believing that their reward and punishment will be based upon the person and work of a mere man and his so-called ministry of the age.

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Timotheist · 05-31-2022, 07:55 PM

1000 years is not such a long time.

The rich man has been in torment in Sheol for more than 2000 years, yet he will still be saved.

Ohio · 05-31-2022, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

1000 years is not such a long time.

The rich man has been in torment in Sheol for more than 2000 years, yet he will still be saved.

What evidence or verse would cause you to think that? I thought that huge chasm was uncrossable.

Timotheist · 05-31-2022, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

What evidence or verse would cause you to think that? I thought that huge chasm was uncrossable.

Romans 11:25-29

See post #16

Raptor · 06-01-2022, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

there are no clear references to 1000 years in outer darkness , etc.

Raptor - are you agreeing or disagreeing?

I see a strong possibility that not inheriting the kingdom as a reward could be a state that lasts 1,000 years for some, yes (maybe me?). There is scriptural ground to conclude that, yes. I have not seen verses that say that, specifically, exactly like that, no.

Timotheist · 06-01-2022, 08:32 AM

Raptor sums it up well.

The duration of the kingdom being 1000 years is unique to Revelation.

Matthew, et. al., refer several times to rewards and punishment, but NEVER mentions the duration.

I personally believe that the punishment is proportional to the crime (you will not come out of prison until you have paid the last cent). So not all will be out for the entire 1000 years.

But do I have "proof" of that belief? no

Paul Vusik · 06-01-2022, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

And one woman that spoke afterwards at the mic was so bothered that her family hasn't come into the church.

That women should actually be glad that her family isn’t willing to sacrifice themselves and their loved ones on the altar to this “spirit of recovery”. She should thank God that they still have some discernment and ability to maybe see some things that she no longer can.

Because I tell you what, when I was there, I was the same way. But thanks be to God Almighty, that he protected my siblings and my mother from experiencing this counterfeit, even though in my mind I had it the other way.

Sons to Glory! · 06-01-2022, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

The duration of the kingdom being 1000 years is unique to Revelation.

The dispensationalist view takes this 1000 years as literal. The amillennialism view looks at it allegorically, meaning they don't think the 1000 years is a literal amount of time and is more symbolic (e.g., the Lamb of God not being an actual lamb).

I didn't realize lately that the views I hold on this are strongly dispensational premillennialism, as that's almost the only view I'd been exposed to in the LC and from other sources. But lately, a few in my circle have expressed an amillennialism viewpoint, so this has made me aware that there's other ideas on this. According to them, it was first promoted by JN Darby around 150 years ago, and prior to that, amillennialism was more prevalent (since Augustine). Does that mean that the teaching of premillennialism (Christ returns prior to a 1000 year reign) wasn't taught at all prior to Darby?

Ohio · 06-01-2022, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Raptor sums it up well.

The duration of the kingdom being 1000 years is unique to Revelation.

Matthew, et. al., refer several times to rewards and punishment, but NEVER mentions the duration.

I personally believe that the punishment is proportional to the crime (you will not come out of prison until you have paid the last cent). So not all will be out for the entire 1000 years.

But do I have "proof" of that belief? no

I agree with this. The principle of growing plants ripening supports this, iow first fruits, harvest, gleanings, etc. Not all mature at the same time.

Ohio · 06-01-2022, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

That women should actually be glad that her family isn’t willing to sacrifice themselves and their loved ones on the altar to this “spirit of recovery”. She should thank God that they still have some discernment and ability to maybe see some things that she no longer can.

Because I tell you what, when I was there, I was the same way. But thanks be to God Almighty, that he protected my siblings and my mother from experiencing this counterfeit, even though in my mind I had it the other way.

I felt the same way at one point. I was brought under condemnation at the 2 Corinthians training for not being a good “salesman” bringing all my family into the Recovery.

Timotheist · 06-01-2022, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

The dispensationalist view takes this 1000 years as literal. The amillennialism view looks at it allegorically, meaning they don't think the 1000 years is a literal amount of time and is more symbolic (e.g., the Lamb of God not being an actual lamb).

I didn't realize lately that the views I hold on this are strongly dispensational premillennialism, as that's almost the only view I'd been exposed to in the LC and from other sources. But lately, a few in my circle have expressed an amillennialism viewpoint, so this has made me aware that there's other ideas on this. According to them, it was first promoted by JN Darby around 150 years ago, and prior to that, amillennialism was more prevalent (since Augustine). Does that mean that the teaching of premillennialism (Christ returns prior to a 1000 year reign) wasn't taught at all prior to Darby?

Here is a short article that tries to date premillennialism way back to Justin Martyr:

https://christianhistoryinstitute.or...emillennialism

Simply based on my memory from my reading of Justin Martyr and Irenaeus over 20 years ago, this article seems legit.

I think the premillennialist viewpoint can be held and kept distinct from the larger doctrine of dispensationalism, which is rightly (I think) attributed to Darby

Sons to Glory! · 06-01-2022, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Here is a short article that tries to date premillennialism way back to Justin Martyr:

https://christianhistoryinstitute.or...emillennialism

Simply based on my memory from my reading of Justin Martyr and Irenaeus over 20 years ago, this article seems legit.

I think the premillennialist viewpoint can be held and kept distinct from the larger doctrine of dispensationalism, which is rightly (I think) attributed to Darby

That was an interesting article - thanks! So it makes sense then that Augustine promulgated more of a less literal amillennialism (or postmillennialism?) view, since he promoted the church as the manifestation of the kingdom on earth.

Paul Vusik · 06-01-2022, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I felt the same way at one point. I was brought under condemnation at the 2 Corinthians training for not being a good “salesman” bringing all my family into the Recovery.

You know Ohio,
We invited my mother to couple of meetings and conferences. She came and listened, and never said anything about it. She has been a Christian all her life.
When by Gods mercy, He pulled me out of it, I spoke to my mother and told her where we have been. She said, you know, I couldn’t tell you this then, because you wouldn’t listen, but the couple times I visited that church, it was some of the most suffocating and pressurized environment I have felt being anywhere in my life. I’m not sure if anyone else can attest to that, but after I have left that and ask God to completely free me from all of its connections and influences of any kind, I feel the same way.

Raptor · 06-03-2022, 03:33 AM

Sharing authority and joy with Christ as a reward in the Kingdom is a conditional matter as seen in the following verses: CONDITION: faithful, overcoming, enduring, good, wise. REWARD: authority, responsibility, reigning, joy.

Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their portion at the proper time? 43Blessed is that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 44Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. Matt. 12:42-44

Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master!’ Matt. 25:21

‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very small matter, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ Luke. 19:17.

If we endure, we will also reign together with Him; if we will deny Him, He also will deny us; 2 Tim. 2:12

And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. 27He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery. Rev. 2:26-27

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev. 20:4.

To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne. Rev. 3:21.

Matt Anderson · 06-09-2022, 06:47 AM

I rely on some things when thinking about this subject.

1. The Bible is not completely clear
2. God is righteous in His judgments
3. God judges each one of us individually based on our deeds and the condition of our heart. There is no group aspect to this judgment. It is entirely individual as siblings in Christ.
4. Do not be afraid. Jesus says this a lot.
5. My Father in heaven loves me

The verses regarding "weeping and gnashing of teeth" are not clear as to their targets. They could be referring to the "good believers vs. bad believers" or "believers vs. non-believers". As a result, I think about what the Bible says, the nature of God and how He has dealt with me in all aspects of my life to form an opinion here. It is just an opinion.

I believe that the real goal for us now is to become as fully mature in Christ as possible (Ephesians 4). I believe that the process of growth includes making mistakes and having problems that we can't find our way past. However, if we focus on the Lord then we will mature. We may not know or be fully willing to mature as much as we could, but we should be encouraged to grow as much as possible and to ask God to supply where there is any lack of ability or willingness.

With all these things in mind, I completely set aside trying to definitively resolve this issue about believers being in "outer darkness" for some or all of the Millennial kingdom. God has a plan for each one of us to FULLY participate in eternity (beyond the Millennial kingdom) and He consistently sets forward the idea of rewards vs. punishments under both the Old Covenant and the New Testament. Whatever I have to go through to reach the measure of maturity God has in mind for me, I simply ask for Him to supply me with what I need to walk the path. On the day we are judged as believers, we will all fall short, but we have a good and loving Father who is judging us. Yes, he is righteous, but I am not afraid because of how I see He has taken care of me so far through all the good and bad things I have done and all the good and bad things in my heart.

Matt

Nell · 06-09-2022, 08:59 AM

Your post makes a lot of sense, Matt. It seems that the meaning of the verses on this (or any) topic...generally speaking...imply a more personal matter. i.e., did you figure out with your natural mind your position on 1000 Years Discipline all by yourself? Did you read a verse and form an opinion, or do you trust your personal relationship with God to spiritually reveal in His own time, the/a matter, to you.

It seems to me that the best takeaway from the "1000 Years Discipline" discussion of the topic might be: "I'm not sure...". Or as you have stated:
1. The Bible is not completely clear
2. God is righteous in His judgments
3. God judges each one of us individually based on our deeds and the condition of our heart. There is no group aspect to this judgment. It is entirely individual as siblings in Christ.
4. Do not be afraid. Jesus says this a lot.
5. My Father in heaven loves me

Consider 1 Corinthians 2:12-16
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

These verses address the scriptural "requirements" for interpreting scripture: Not my requirements.

12: not by the spirit of the world, but the spirit of God. What is the "spirit of the world"? Well, what we know for sure is that the spirit of the world is not the spirit of God.

13: not by the words of man's wisdom, but the teaching of the Holy Spirit...comparing spiritual with spiritual. What is "man's wisdom"? It seems that man's wisdom is whatever man figures out on his own without the benefit of the spirit of God. (Leaning to man's own understanding perhaps?)

14: spiritual matters are foolish to the "natural" (not spiritual) man. Is it possible that literal verses in the scripture can be subject to foolish (natural) interpretation based on "man's wisdom"? But...but...but...The Bible says "this". The Bible doesn't say "that".

15: the spiritual man judges but is not judged. Huh?

16: Who has known the mind of the Lord? (Similar to the question/discourse to Job.) Do you, natural man, know what you're talking about? Do you really think you, natural man, are qualified to teach (or speak for) God?

Zezima · 06-09-2022, 09:14 AM

If the Bible isn’t clear on a doctrine, then that should be proof enough to debunk a strongly preached doctrine in the Recovery right?

Nell · 06-09-2022, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

If the Bible isn’t clear on a doctrine, then that should be proof enough to debunk a strongly preached doctrine in the Recovery right?

So it would seem. But this is only one of many Lee/Nee "strong" doctrines and/or teachings that have little more than descriptive mention in scripture.

That being the case, why is this place called "the Recovery"? Teaching after teaching of Witness Lee has been debunked or classified as heretical? Perhaps a good topic would be to list what has actually been "recovered". Sometimes it's called "the Lord's Recovery." Really? How does this sect belong to the Lord?

Nell

Ohio · 06-10-2022, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

If the Bible isn’t clear on a doctrine, then that should be proof enough to debunk a strongly preached doctrine in the Recovery right?

That’s exactly how I came to the conclusion that the Recovery doctrine of the “ground of locality,” that is “one church, one city,” must be rejected.

Paul Vusik · 06-10-2022, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

So it would seem. But this is only one of many Lee/Nee "strong" doctrines and/or teachings that have little more than descriptive mention in scripture.

That being the case, why is this place called "the Recovery"? Teaching after teaching of Witness Lee has been debunked or classified as heretical? Perhaps a good topic would be to list what has actually been "recovered". Sometimes it's called "the Lord's Recovery." Really? How does this sect belong to the Lord?

Nell

The issue here is way deeper than any teachings or doctrines offered by “recovery”. It’s a different god, jesus and the spirit that’s offered and promoted by the LC. The “triune processed god”, or the “processed Jesus”, or “jesus the spirit now” is not found in biblical teachings, but invented golden calf, named jesus, by the man who didn’t want to worship the Most High and the only God. They invented their own god, after their own imagination, assigned him his “hearts desires” after their own, and started to enjoy its supposed existence. That wasn’t enough to keep it going and have a grip on people, so they just dipped into the spiritual world and attached a spirit to it, which makes it a potent combination that keeps people in bondage and blind, unless God intervenes by His grace and mercy and set one free of this deception.

Nell · 06-11-2022, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

The issue here is way deeper than any teachings or doctrines offered by “recovery”.

1. It’s a different god, jesus and the spirit that’s offered and promoted by the LC.

2. The “triune processed god”, or the “processed Jesus”, or “jesus the spirit now” is not found in biblical teachings, but invented golden calf, named jesus, by the man who didn’t want to worship the Most High and the only God.

3. They invented their own god, after their own imagination, assigned him his “hearts desires” after their own, and started to enjoy its supposed existence.

4. That wasn’t enough to keep it going and have a grip on people, so they just dipped into the spiritual world and attached a spirit to it,

5. which makes it a potent combination that keeps people in bondage and blind, unless God intervenes by His grace and mercy and set one free of this deception.

I can't disagree with you here, except in one matter. Rather than attributing the delusion in the Local Church of Witness Lee to "they", I believe we can narrow it down.

Quote:

1 Timothy 4:1-2 Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times (NOW) some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Eph. 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Surely we are in the latter times. If not, then what? Your post, Paul, clearly makes the case. Our need is to "know the truth", "know your enemy", arm ourselves, and stand against the enemy. How? Notice that Ephesians 6:14 starts with arming ourselves with "truth". We have to fight the right (scripturally right) battle.

Quote:

Ephesians 6:13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end, keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19 and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.

Traditionally, American Christians start getting squeamish when talking about the devil. Some dismiss these verses as "fear mongering" and other terminology. American Christians often have a tendency to take a "not now" belief, or some other "delay bent." We have a tendency to fight for some verses, but not others...such as these verses above.

This attitude is common to Americans and other western cultures. Other lesser developed countries know better, where the realities of the deeds of the principalities and powers are commonplace and even cultivated...in Haiti for example.

Are we REALLY in the "latter times"? What other explanation is there? Read what Paul V has told us again. Rather than dismissing the obvious correlation, at least consider "maybe" and pray that the Lord's truth will start to be revealed to us, and to "them".

Nell

Paul Vusik · 06-12-2022, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I can't disagree with you here, except in one matter. Rather than attributing the delusion in the Local Church of Witness Lee to "they", I believe we can narrow it down.
Nell

Nell,

If I could clarify why I used the word “they”, in the matter of the LC.

I believe that we have been living in the last times, ever since Paul wrote the letter to Timothy, and it’s just getting worse and worse, until full apostasy will take place.
I agree with your verses that you brought up, especially 1 Tim 4:1-2. So when you look at the verses, they show an interesting progression;

1. Depart from faith.
2. Giving heed to seducing spirits.
3. Speaking lies.
4. Having their conscience seared.

I just want to say this, all of those steps are done by a person willingly and with full consent. God doesn’t chain anyone to His ways or a slave master that beats anyone into submission. This is spoken of people who were believers or at least of people who have some basic knowledge of what faith is. They departed from it, after knowing what the truths are.

Also, giving heed is a willing and conscious effort. These spirits cannot and do not have ability to manifest themselves other than through someone who is willing to heed to them and their doctrines, teachings. So “they”, who have departed the faith, and willingly heeding and then speaking lies and their false doctrines and teachings, are people that are under the influence of these spirits.

Seared conscience, is kind of last step. We have seen many posts and testimonies describing that exact state of mind. No remorse, no apologies, not taking any responsibility for all things that brought up to them, covering them up, blaming the messenger for speaking out, and I can go on for a while. Speaking lies and false teachings without any shame or fear also comes to mind.

For anyone who has been around it long enough, they should see or remember two types of people.
1. There are true zealots for this, who will at any cost sacrifice everything and everyone around them on this altar.

2. Then the other group, are the people who are so beat up and confused by them, that even though the red alarms and sirens are going off in every direction, (such as still somewhat functioning conscience), they just can’t put their finger on what’s going on because their mind have been clouded / seduced. It’s like constantly living in a fog. The sun breaks through it for a second, but is quickly swallowed up by this thick seduction. I’ve been there, I know the feeling. I know what it does and how it operates. It’s a miserable existence. It happens by our willingness to depart and participate, and THAT’’S WHY THERE IS SO MUCH PRESSURE ON PEOPLE TO CONFORM TO THEIR TEACHINGS AND DOCTRINES. That’s the requirement of these spirits, and one must heed to them, or allow them to operate within.

Most people that are in the second group, usually were ether born into it with no choice of their own, fooled into it by deceptive Christian vocabulary, or just plainly thought that there is no harm no foul messing around with spiritual world that exist and has its rules and grips. Lack of studying the Word, understanding biblical teachings, and testing everything against it, which is mostly absent from our society today tends to create perfect breeding ground for this seduction.

Raptor · 06-12-2022, 10:57 AM

The "Kingdom exclusion" teaching was not originated by WL. Others authors before and after have penned similar conclusions.

Here is a recent book (2002) of a detailed view of reward and punishment at the Judgment Seat of Christ:

"The Believer's Payday"
by Paul N. Benware

"We now enter our study of the coming payday for the believer when he or she stands individually before the Lord who bought him or her and gives account for what was done in this present life. For some, it will be a day of incredible joy, satisfaction, and rejoicing. For others, it will be a troubling day of shame and even grief." Benware, Paul N. The Believer's Payday (p. 7). AMG Publishers. Kindle Edition.

https://www.amazon.com/Believers-Pay.../dp/B006T37ICK

Nell · 06-13-2022, 08:08 PM

“P.S. As a "fun" exercise try reading the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America and asking yourself, are there "doctrines of demons" in it that you believe in? ...any discussion on this topic would be outside the scope of this forum. Just a provocative question to consider...

”
Matt

awareness · 06-13-2022, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

“P.S. As a "fun" exercise try reading the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America and asking yourself, are there "doctrines of demons" in it that you believe in? ...any discussion on this topic would be outside the scope of this forum. Just a provocative question to consider...

”
Matt

Nell/Matt, are you saying there's doctrines of demons in the Dec of Independence?

Nell · 06-14-2022, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Nell/Matt, are you saying there's doctrines of demons in the Dec of Independence?

Matt clearly said “read it and ask yourself” then “discussion is beyond the scope of this forum”. I will add, read it and ask the God you don’t believe in, and assume you are deceived. Don’t ask me or Matt. It’s an exercise for you, to illustrate his point. It’s not a discussion topic.

Nell

Ohio · 06-14-2022, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Nell/Matt, are you saying there's doctrines of demons in the Dec of Independence?

Here’s an easier test for you, awareness. Try reading first grade primers in CA public schools to find doctrines of demons.

Nell · 06-14-2022, 09:03 PM

I have deleted the last four off topic posts.

Nell
Moderator

awareness · 06-15-2022, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I have deleted the last four off topic posts.

Nell
Moderator

Thanks for the heads up. I think.

awareness · 06-15-2022, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Matt clearly said “read it and ask yourself” then “discussion is beyond the scope of this forum”. I will add, read it and ask the God you don’t believe in, and assume you are deceived. Don’t ask me or Matt. It’s an exercise for you, to illustrate his point. It’s not a discussion topic.

Nell

Did Matt actually say that? The God I don't believe in told me he didn't.

Nell · 06-15-2022, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Did Matt actually say that? The God I don't believe in told me he didn't.

Harold,
He did. Clearly. You either didn't read the P.S. to Matt's post, or ...something. Try again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

Click on this blue arrow above to link to the original post.

...Matt

P.S. As a "fun" exercise try reading the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America and asking yourself, are there "doctrines of demons" in it that you believe in? ...any discussion on this topic would be outside the scope of this forum. Just a provocative question to consider...

UntoHim · 06-15-2022, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Did Matt actually say that? The God I don't believe in told me he didn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

P.S. As a "fun" exercise try reading the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America and asking yourself, are there "doctrines of demons" in it that you believe in? ...any discussion on this topic would be outside the scope of this forum. Just a provocative question to consider...

What happened is that this quote is from a post which was among a number of posts which are now split off to the new thread entitled "1 Timothy 4:1-3 Deception and Seducing". Happy now Harold?

-

awareness · 06-15-2022, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

What happened is that this quote is from a post which was among a number of posts which are now split off to the new thread entitled "1 Timothy 4:1-3 Deception and Seducing". Happy now Harold?

-

Well thanks my good friend UntoHim. The God I don't believe in loves you.

Thanks again. Now off to Timothy.

Harold

Timotheist · 06-16-2022, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Well thanks my good friend UntoHim. The God I don't believe in loves you.

Thanks again. Now off to Timothy.

Harold

I enjoyed your visit.

I bless you, my son.

Sons to Glory! · 06-16-2022, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

The "Kingdom exclusion" teaching was not originated by WL. Others authors before and after have penned similar conclusions.

Here is a recent book (2002) of a detailed view of reward and punishment at the Judgment Seat of Christ:

"The Believer's Payday"
by Paul N. Benware

"We now enter our study of the coming payday for the believer when he or she stands individually before the Lord who bought him or her and gives account for what was done in this present life. For some, it will be a day of incredible joy, satisfaction, and rejoicing. For others, it will be a troubling day of shame and even grief." Benware, Paul N. The Believer's Payday (p. 7). AMG Publishers. Kindle Edition.

https://www.amazon.com/Believers-Pay.../dp/B006T37ICK

In that book, does Benware advocate actual punishment for the believer or go more in the direction of the loss of reward?

Raptor · 06-16-2022, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

In that book, does Benware advocate actual punishment for the believer or go more in the direction of the loss of reward?

He seems to be pretty light and general on both rewards, loss of rewards and discipline. He does mention rewards and loss a lot, but not in much detail. Here is a little on the discipline side:

The ground (the believer) can produce good crops and thus receive blessing from God (6:7), or it can be worthless (adokimos) and produce thorns and thistles. If that is the case, the Christian faces temporal judgment (discipline) from the Lord (“close to being cursed” (6:8).

Benware, Paul N.. The Believer's Payday (p. 163). AMG Publishers. Edición de Kindle.

If, however, a believer turns from living according to these truths and from the fellowship of other believers and enters into a life of deliberate, continual, and willful sin, then such a one faces two terrible consequences. The first terrible consequence this person faces is that of temporal judgment. There is no sacrificial protection from the temporal consequences of sin for an unrepentant believer (10:26–31). The writer is communicating a well-known truth that a believer who will not appropriate the blood of Christ for cleansing has no other way for sin to be removed. In this continually sinful state he faces temporal (not eternal) discipline from the Lord.

Benware, Paul N.. The Believer's Payday (pp. 163-164). AMG Publishers. Edición de Kindle.

Sons to Glory! · 06-16-2022, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

The writer is communicating a well-known truth that a believer who will not appropriate the blood of Christ for cleansing has no other way for sin to be removed. In this continually sinful state he faces temporal (not eternal) discipline from the Lord.

Benware, Paul N.. The Believer's Payday (pp. 163-164). AMG Publishers. Edición de Kindle.

By "temporal discipline," is the author referring to a consequence during this present, biological life - or a temporary discipline later on?

The quote above also is strongly reminiscent of Hebrews 10:26 where it says that, " there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins . . ." I take that to mean that since Christ has become the perfect, once for all sacrifice for sin, there just isn't anything to be done, or price to pay, beyond that all-efficacious act. And His sacrifice is there as a fact for all mankind, but each person must choose to accept and apply in order for it to work in their lives. So in this case, the believer is regenerated and eternally saved, yet his works and fruit are severely lacking, and in testing (by fire) will be burned up. Yet, as 1st Corinthians 3:15 says, "he will be saved, yet as through fire."

Therefore this will be a tremendous loss for such a one! I can see that the anguish produced by this loss, would cause much "weeping & gnashing of teeth." (for how long? don't know)

Raptor · 06-17-2022, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

By "temporal discipline," is the author referring to a consequence during this present, biological life - or a temporary discipline later on?

He refers to both, during the life of a believer and after the judgment.

Yes, Hebrews is a very good book that shows us the goal of entering into His rest, and the consequences a believer may face if he neglects the calling. But only a general, "loss of rewards" consequence for unfaithful believers is not consistent with how God judges and disciplines. Just like Hebrews 2:2 says, "For if the word having been spoken by angels was unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense, how shall we escape, having neglected such a great salvation,...."

God judges and disciplines proportionally and specifically according to the transgression. A believer who commits murder will be judged one way, the sister who loves the world another way, that brother that commited adultery yet another way. They will all lose the rewards, but in addition, each sin will receive a just retribution.

That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. Luke 12:47.

Ohio · 06-17-2022, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

He refers to both, during the life of a believer and after the judgment.

Yes, Hebrews is a very good book that shows us the goal of entering into His rest, and the consequences a believer may face if he neglects the calling. But only a general, "loss of rewards" consequence for unfaithful believers is not consistent with how God judges and disciplines. Just like Hebrews 2:2 says, "For if the word having been spoken by angels was unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense, how shall we escape, having neglected such a great salvation,...."

God judges and disciplines proportionally and specifically according to the transgression.

Those under Law, rejecting such a great salvation thru faith in the long-promised
Lamb of God, will receive just recompense for every transgression and disobedience. That is true. This is why the Book of Hebrews was written to these Hebrews.

Raptor · 06-17-2022, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Those under Law, rejecting such a great salvation thru faith in the long-promised
Lamb of God, will receive just recompense for every transgression and disobedience. That is true. This is why the Book of Hebrews was written to these Hebrews.

"those" Hebrews? Yes, who are an example and type for us. "...how shall we escape...". "Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us"....1 Cor. 10:11.

"For we must all be revealed before the judgment seat of Christ, that each may receive back the things done through the body according to what he did, whether good or evil". 1 Cor. 5:10. If you are a New Testament believer and you do bad things, you do evil, you will be paid back according to what you did, (unless of course you confess your sins and repent).

Ohio · 06-17-2022, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

"those" Hebrews? Yes, who are an example and type for us. "...how shall we escape...". "Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us"....1 Cor. 10:11.

"For we must all be revealed before the judgment seat of Christ, that each may receive back the things done through the body according to what he did, whether good or evil". 1 Cor. 5:10. If you are a New Testament believer and you do bad things, you do evil, you will be paid back according to what you did, (unless of course you confess your sins and repent).

Yes, indeed, the Book of Hebrews was written to "those Hebrews" who were returning to their old Jewish ways, honoring angels (ch 1-2), esteeming Moses and Joshua (ch. 3-4), practicing the priesthood of Aaron (ch 5), returning to the ways of the Old Covenant (ch. 8), and sacrificing animals in the Mosaic Temple (ch.9-10)

This book was a warning to the Hebrews, just as the books of the entire Old Testament were warnings to us. They are filled with stories, signs, types, shadows, figures, etc. all of which were fulfilled by the Messiah, our Lord Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for our sins, and whom God raised from the dead. Leave Him and you leave everything.

Sons to Glory! · 06-17-2022, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

He refers to both, during the life of a believer and after the judgment.

Yes, Hebrews is a very good book that shows us the goal of entering into His rest, and the consequences a believer may face if he neglects the calling. But only a general, "loss of rewards" consequence for unfaithful believers is not consistent with how God judges and disciplines. Just like Hebrews 2:2 says, "For if the word having been spoken by angels was unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense, how shall we escape, having neglected such a great salvation,...."

God judges and disciplines proportionally and specifically according to the transgression. A believer who commits murder will be judged one way, the sister who loves the world another way, that brother that commited adultery yet another way. They will all lose the rewards, but in addition, each sin will receive a just retribution.

That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. Luke 12:47.

Yes, I certainly believe that all sins will be dealt with in a righteous way . . . it's just not always so clear how He will go about that. And Christ's atonement took care of all sin, past, present and future, but we know that one must be in "alignment" with Him and His work to receive that atonement.

So believers receive this perfect atonement, however, we are still accountable for things done while in the body, even after we are regenerated. Some believe that there will be specific punishments handed out, while I tend to believe it's more about the loss of the reward. I think there's verses that appear to back-up both of those positions. But regardless of which of these it is (or somewhere in the middle), the main point is that it won't be pleasant for the child of God to see all their works burned up and come to naught through the testing fire!

To me, judgement of man is one of those things where the clear, definite knowledge may be kept a little hidden from us. This makes me think of a book I'm reading now, which discusses the 3 main views of hell in the bible that various ones hold, because it also relates to judgment (but for unregenerated ones). I always assumed that the historically prevalent view of eternal, conscious torment, was what the bible conveyed about hell. However, I learned there were two other main competing views (annihilation of the soul & universalism), and there are various verses that would seem to support these other views. Therefore, I'm questioning my previous belief in the traditional view of hell . . .

Here's one quote from that book I thought was poignant: "Advocates of all three views [regarding hell & judgment of nonbelievers) acknowledge that some biblical texts sound somewhat (or very) universalistic [i.e., all will eventually be saved], while others sound as if hell is the ultimate, irreversible destiny awaiting those who reject Christ in this lifetime."

So I bring this up to illustrate that I think it's a similar kind of thing regarding how we view the judgement of believers at the Bema (aka "judgment seat of Christ"). That is, there are verses that seem to support various views. To me, the bottom-line is with all these kinds of considerations - Just be ready; diligent in this life to enter into all the grace He's supplied to us!

Raptor · 06-19-2022, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Some believe that there will be specific punishments handed out, while I tend to believe it's more about the loss of the reward. I think there's verses that appear to back-up both of those positions.

Sometimes when there are several verses with "different positions" about one topic it´s a matter of putting them together to form a picture. Like pieces of a puzzle; context is also very important to find the correct meaning. In this case I believe both are true, there will be loss of rewards and discipline/punishment.

Raptor · 06-22-2022, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

(Premillenialism)....According to them, it was first promoted by JN Darby around 150 years ago, and prior to that, amillennialism was more prevalent (since Augustine). Does that mean that the teaching of premillennialism (Christ returns prior to a 1000 year reign) wasn't taught at all prior to Darby?

History of Premillenialism paragraph in Wikipedia
Premillenialism was supported by in the early church by Papias,[6] Irenaeus, Justin Martyr,[5] Tertullian,[7] Pseudo-Barnabas,[8] Methodius, Lactantius,[9] Commodianus[10] Theophilus,[11] Melito,[12] Hippolytus of Rome, Victorinus of Pettau,[13][14] Nepos, Julius Africanus, Commodianus, Tatian[15]and Montanus.[16] However the premillenial views of Montanus probably affected the later rejection of premillenialism in the Church, as Montanism was seen as a heresy.[15]

Proponents of historic premillennialism include Baptists, Presbyterians, the Christian and Missionary Alliance, and several Evangelical groups. Individual proponents of historic premillennialism include: John Gill,[17] Robert Shank, Charles Spurgeon, Mike Bickle,[17][18] Benjamin Wills Newton (a contemporary and fierce theological rival of the father of dispensationalism, John Nelson Darby), George Eldon Ladd,[19] Albert Mohler,[20] Clarence Bass, John Piper,[21] Francis Schaeffer, D. A. Carson,[22][23][24] Gordon Clark,[17] Bryan Chapell,[25] and Carl F. H. Henry.[26]

Sons to Glory! · 06-22-2022, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

History of Premillenialism paragraph in Wikipedia
Premillenialism was supported by in the early church by Papias,[6] Irenaeus, Justin Martyr,[5] Tertullian,[7] Pseudo-Barnabas,[8] Methodius, Lactantius,[9] Commodianus[10] Theophilus,[11] Melito,[12] Hippolytus of Rome, Victorinus of Pettau,[13][14] Nepos, Julius Africanus, Commodianus, Tatian[15]and Montanus.[16] However the premillenial views of Montanus probably affected the later rejection of premillenialism in the Church, as Montanism was seen as a heresy.[15]

Proponents of historic premillennialism include Baptists, Presbyterians, the Christian and Missionary Alliance, and several Evangelical groups. Individual proponents of historic premillennialism include: John Gill,[17] Robert Shank, Charles Spurgeon, Mike Bickle,[17][18] Benjamin Wills Newton (a contemporary and fierce theological rival of the father of dispensationalism, John Nelson Darby), George Eldon Ladd,[19] Albert Mohler,[20] Clarence Bass, John Piper,[21] Francis Schaeffer, D. A. Carson,[22][23][24] Gordon Clark,[17] Bryan Chapell,[25] and Carl F. H. Henry.[26]

You must have gone back to read this thread and I'm impressed that someone actually answered that question . . . thanks! A popular brother on the radio out west (Steve Gregg) often says that dispensationalism was not a view held by the early church, and not held for many centuries - that is up until Darby (et. al.) promoted it just 150 years ago. It appears that opinion is not correct.

And Augustine was a big proponent of amillennialism, and his influence on the church can hardly be understated (that no future kingdom was needed, because the church was basically the kingdom).

FYI: the wiki definition related to your 2nd paragraph above is, "Historic, or Classic, Premillennialism is distinctively non-dispensational" (as contrasted with Dispensational Premillennialism, which Darby promoted). Meaning Historic Premillennialism "sees no radical theological distinction between Israel and the Church." (Darby did see a distinction.)

Any way, as said earlier, I wasn't really even aware dispensationalism and/or premillennialism was a view I held, until I more recently heard someone repeatedly speak about amillennialism vs. dispensationalism. It was just what I was brought up under . . . I must say, trying to figure out these different views (classic premillennialism, dispensational millennialism, amillennialism, covenant theology, etc.) has my head swimming a bit . . .

FROM THAT SAME WIKI PAGE (see here) :

Zezima · 06-22-2022, 03:48 PM

Just to clarify a bit more

Dispensationalism is a hermeneutic framework for interpreting the Bible. Christians typically fall into two camps when it comes to the lenses they interpret the Bible through. Dispensationalism Theology and Covenant Theology.
The biggest difference between the two is Israel and the church. Dispensationlists believe that Israel and the church are different. Covenant theology views the church as Israel.

Premillennial, postmillennial, and Amillennial are the three main views of the end times (eschatology).

Neither of those eschatology views are exclusive to a hermeneutic framework.

Raptor · 06-23-2022, 03:20 AM

Here is a summary of premill. from gotquestions.org. (Concerning their view point in their ministry, gotquestions.org supports premillennialism and rejects amillennialism and postmillennialism.)

"Premillennialism is the view that Christ’s second coming will occur prior to His millennial kingdom, and that the millennial kingdom is a literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth. In order to understand and interpret the passages in Scripture that deal with end-times events, there are two things that must be clearly understood: a proper method of interpreting Scripture and the distinction between Israel (the Jews) and the church (the body of all believers in Jesus Christ).

First, a proper method of interpreting Scripture requires that Scripture be interpreted in a way that is consistent with its context. This means that a passage must be interpreted in a way that is consistent with the audience to which it is written, those it is written about, whom it is written by, and so on. It is critical to know the author, intended audience, and historical background of each passage one interprets. The historical and cultural setting will often reveal the correct meaning of a passage. It is also important to remember that Scripture interprets Scripture. That is, often a passage will cover a topic or subject that is also addressed elsewhere in the Bible. It is important to interpret all of these passages consistently with one another.

Finally, and most importantly, passages must always be taken in their normal, regular, plain, literal meaning unless the context of the passage indicates that it is figurative in nature. A literal interpretation does not eliminate the possibility of figures of speech being used. Rather, it encourages the interpreter to not read figurative language into the meaning of a passage unless it is appropriate for that context. It is crucial to never seek a “deeper, more spiritual” meaning than is presented. Spiritualizing a passage is dangerous because it moves the basis for accurate interpretation from Scripture to the mind of the reader. Then, there can be no objective standard of interpretation; instead, Scripture becomes subject to each person’s own impression of what it means. Second Peter 1:20-21 reminds us that “no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”

Applying these principles of biblical interpretation, it must be seen that Israel (Abraham’s physical descendants) and the church (all New Testament believers) are two distinct groups. It is crucial to recognize that Israel and the church are distinct because, if this is misunderstood, Scripture will be misinterpreted. Especially prone to misinterpretation are passages that deal with promises made to Israel (both fulfilled and unfulfilled). Such promises should not be applied to the church. Remember, the context of the passage will determine to whom it is addressed and will point to the most correct interpretation. With those concepts in mind, we can look at various passages of Scripture that produce the premillennial view. Genesis 12:1-3: “The LORD had said to Abram, ‘Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.’”

God promises Abraham three things here: Abraham would have many descendants, this nation would own and occupy a land, and a universal blessing will come to all mankind out of Abraham’s line (the Jews). In Genesis 15:9-17, God ratifies His covenant with Abraham. By the way this is done, God places sole responsibility for the covenant upon Himself. That is, there was nothing Abraham could do or fail to do that would void the covenant God made. Also in this passage, the boundaries are set for the land that the Jews will eventually occupy. For a detailed list of the boundaries, see Deuteronomy 34. Other passages that deal with the promise of land are Deuteronomy 30:3-5 and Ezekiel 20:42-44.

In 2 Samuel 7:10–17, we see the promise made by God to King David. God makes some special promises concerning one of David's sons: God will establish his kingdom (verse 12), be his father (verse 14), and never remove His love from him (verse 15). In addition, God says this son “will build a house for my Name” (verse 13). These promises were fulfilled in Solomon. However, part of God’s promise was that David’s son’s throne would be established “forever” (verse 13). This part of the prophecy could not refer to Solomon, because Solomon died and did not retain the throne forever. Thus, we have a prophecy with a dual fulfillment: it was fulfilled partially in Solomon and fully in Jesus Christ, also called the Son of David (Matthew 1:1). Solomon did, in some ways, prefigure Christ in his kingship, wisdom, and peaceful reign. Of course, Jesus is greater than Solomon in every respect (Matthew 12:42). So, 2 Samuel 7 makes reference to Solomon’s temporary rule and to Christ’s rule during the millennium and forever. King Solomon could not be the ultimate fulfillment of the promise made to David; it is a covenant that has yet to be fully realized.

With all this in mind, examine what is recorded in Revelation 20:1–7. The thousand years repeatedly mentioned in this passage corresponds to Christ’s literal 1000-year reign on the earth. Premillennialism sees this passage as describing the future fulfillment of the promise that Christ would be seated on David’s throne. God made unconditional covenants with both Abraham and David. Neither of these covenants has been fully or permanently fulfilled. A literal, physical rule of Christ is the only way the covenants can be fulfilled as God promised they would. Applying a literal method of interpretation to Scripture results in the pieces of the puzzle coming together. All of the Old Testament prophecies of Jesus’ first coming were fulfilled literally. Therefore, we should expect the prophecies regarding His second coming to be fulfilled literally as well. Premillennialism is the only system that agrees with a literal interpretation of God’s covenants and end-times prophecy."

Matt Anderson · 06-23-2022, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Here is a summary of premill. from gotquestions.org. (Concerning their view point in their ministry, gotquestions.org supports premillennialism and rejects amillennialism and postmillennialism.)

"Premillennialism is the view that Christ’s second coming will occur prior to His millennial kingdom, and that the millennial kingdom is a literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth. In order to understand and interpret the passages in Scripture that deal with end-times events, there are two things that must be clearly understood: a proper method of interpreting Scripture and the distinction between Israel (the Jews) and the church (the body of all believers in Jesus Christ).

First of all, I am not disagreeing with your post (Raptor). I follow your thinking and most of what you share. But...

When this article from gotquestions.org says that there are two things that must be clearly understood, it means that there are two assumptions required for accurate analysis. It makes a "methodology" (proper method of interpreting Scripture) and a "belief" (distinction between Israel/the Jews and the church) central to understanding something. What this means is that if the "methodology" or the "belief" are wrong then everything that follows MAY be off.

I would suggest that both of these two areas are improperly OR insufficiently understood by 99% of christians. Yeah, I know that is a bold statement and I really mean it. I do not say it in a way of condescension, but it is intended to surprise and ask the reader to "think again" and to challenge your "assumptions".

1. The primary method of interpreting Scripture in our modern age is based on a kind of "scientific method" applied to the Bible. The Bible itself does not support this as the exclusive means of interpretation. I think it is possible that the Bible actually teaches against it when it talks about "the Greeks" and their methods. Paul demonstrates a more allegorical approach in several cases and Paul also teaches that we must understand spiritual things with spiritual tools (1 Cor 2:6-15).

Quote:

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because they are spiritually discerned (i.e tested).

The spiritual matters Paul addresses here are beyond the reach of the "natural man" using tools that are constrained to a kind of "scientific method" applied to the Bible. These spiritual tools and the Holy Spirit (as our teacher) do not cast aside our minds or mental abilities, but our method of interpreting Scripture should not be presumptively constrained to a methodology germinated from the realm of science which can only accept as truth the things that are objectively and independently verifiable.

2. The distinction (or lack thereof) between "Israel (the Jews) and the church (the body of all believers in Jesus Christ" is heavily misunderstood. This misunderstanding forms a core pillar of assumption brought into eschatological teaching which is not correct. To get some idea of what I mean here, see the posts titled (Israel of God on Prophecy - The End Times).

Based on what I have been learning, seeing (i.e. being shown) over the past 20'ish years I can no longer put myself in the bucket of "covenant theology" or "dispensational theology". These frameworks are abstracted conceptions of Scripture which are misleading. Many people construct their beliefs on unreliable foundations (i.e. assumptions) without realizing it.

Lastly, I do not claim to have a perfect view, but I can say that I am able to "tear down" some other views to the extent that it is hard to hold on to these "extra-biblical" abstracted conceptions as truth and as "guiding lights" for understanding the Lord's Second Coming. My journey started, in part, by setting aside these abstracted conceptions (covenant theology and dispensational theology) and reading what God said. This has been a much slower process. God spoke a lot about the End Times, so it has taken years of reading and talking to God for something to form in me that I no longer ascribe to an abstract conception with a label. I take it as person to person communication from another being (God) and I avoid these abstract conceptualizations because they are misleading (at least in part).

Matt

Dear Moderators, I know we have veered a bit off-topic but these underlying concepts that are used to support various interpretations are critical to all interpretations of End Times / Second Coming teachings.

Sons to Glory! · 06-23-2022, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Here is a summary of premill. from gotquestions.org. (Concerning their view point in their ministry, gotquestions.org supports premillennialism and rejects amillennialism and postmillennialism.)

Finally, and most importantly, passages must always be taken in their normal, regular, plain, literal meaning unless the context of the passage indicates that it is figurative in nature. A literal interpretation does not eliminate the possibility of figures of speech being used. Rather, it encourages the interpreter to not read figurative language into the meaning of a passage unless it is appropriate for that context. It is crucial to never seek a “deeper, more spiritual” meaning than is presented. Spiritualizing a passage is dangerous because it moves the basis for accurate interpretation from Scripture to the mind of the reader. Then, there can be no objective standard of interpretation; instead, Scripture becomes subject to each person’s own impression of what it means. Second Peter 1:20-21 reminds us that “no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”

Thanks for posting that. We are currently going through Revelation again (2nd time in 6 years) and I think this is good to keep in mind as we seek to get a further understanding from Him!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

Based on what I have been learning, seeing (i.e. being shown) over the past 20'ish years I can no longer put myself in the bucket of "covenant theology" or "dispensational theology". These frameworks are abstracted conceptions of Scripture which are misleading. Many people construct their beliefs on unreliable foundations (i.e. assumptions) without realizing it.

And this is basically where I am too. Having a framework is fine, but as you point out, we have to be aware that this framework is still manmade and has limitations! How often has each of us experienced the Holy Spirit (mercifully) busting through some framework we've had!?

Zezima · 06-23-2022, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Applying these principles of biblical interpretation, it must be seen that Israel (Abraham’s physical descendants) and the church (all New Testament believers) are two distinct groups. It is crucial to recognize that Israel and the church are distinct because, if this is misunderstood, Scripture will be misinterpreted.

What this should say, “In order for this view of eschatology to make sense, you need to view Israel and the church as separate”

Without the hermeneutical framework of dispensationalism, this view of eschatology has its pitfalls. Now I’m not saying it is right or wrong, but this article you posted makes some wide strokes.

At the end of the day, whether your a covenant theology or dispensational theology holder, your salvation is the same. However these frameworks typically lead to vastly different interpretations of the end times. The 1,000 year discipline doctrine held by the lords recovery can only be constructed through the lense of dispensationalism. In fact, Darby was a major component of the multiple rapture theology you hear about in western Christianity, the idea of being left behind traces its roots back to him. Witness lee was a huge fan of Darby.

Sons to Glory! · 06-23-2022, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

At the end of the day, whether your a covenant theology or dispensational theology holder, your salvation is the same. However these frameworks typically lead to vastly different interpretations of the end times. The 1,000 year discipline doctrine held by the lords recovery can only be constructed through the lense of dispensationalism. In fact, Darby was a major component of the multiple rapture theology you hear about in western Christianity, the idea of being left behind traces its roots back to him. Witness lee was a huge fan of Darby.

Agreed regarding the 1,000 years discipline doctrine only being possible through the lens of dispensationalism. However, I haven't heard that many in main stream Christendom espouse the multiple rapture idea - is that your perception? Most everything I hear (on radio, TV and from a few other Christians) is the one rapture view. Of course that is then split between pre or post trib raptures.

Zezima · 06-23-2022, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Agreed regarding the 1,000 years discipline doctrine only being possible through the lens of dispensationalism. However, I haven't heard that many in main stream Christendom espouse the multiple rapture idea - is that your perception? Most everything I hear (on radio, TV and from a few other Christians) is the one rapture view. Of course that is then split between pre or post trib raptures.

It’s a dying belief because there just isn’t the biblical support for it. However, the left behind series is somewhat well known and influences western Christianity. Not exactly 1,000 years of discipline, but the idea that some Christian’s will be left behind is still found in American evangelicalism. It’s a very small group, it’s not a mainstream belief.

Sons to Glory! · 06-23-2022, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

It’s a dying belief because there just isn’t the biblical support for it. However, the left behind series is somewhat well known and influences western Christianity. Not exactly 1,000 years of discipline, but the idea that some Christian’s will be left behind is still found in American evangelicalism. It’s a very small group, it’s not a mainstream belief.

I don't agree that there's no "biblical support" for a multiple rapture scenario. It seems to me that the reason we have both pre-trib and post-trib rapture theories is because people see verses that they believe support each (pre & post) occurrence, and then "make camp" there on one or the other.

The LC likes to make the case that the ones who are early first-fruits and are kept "from the hour of trial about to come upon the whole earth" (Rev 3:10), are the ones that please God and therefore won't receive loss/discipline at the Bema - and also will be the ones ruling in the kingdom.

Raptor · 06-23-2022, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

It’s a dying belief because there just isn’t the biblical support for it.

Plenty of support, just not popular.

Like StG just said, multiple rapture view reconclies pre- and post- trib rapture views.

It solves the puzzle.

Ohio · 06-23-2022, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Plenty of support, just not popular.

Like StG just said, multiple rapture view reconclies pre- and post- trib rapture views. It solves the puzzle.

If our Father's goal is mature sons ("let us be brought on to maturity" - Heb 6.1), which often requires times of testing, even fiery trials and tribulations, then would it not be reasonable to suppose that the timing of one's rapture or the time spent "weeping and gnashing" would differ for each child of God?

Raptor · 06-24-2022, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

If our Father's goal is mature sons ("let us be brought on to maturity" - Heb 6.1), which often requires times of testing, even fiery trials and tribulations, then would it not be reasonable to suppose that the timing of one's rapture or the time spent "weeping and gnashing" would differ for each child of God?

time of rapture differ = yes (to some extent, there is not one individual rapture per every believer, they are grouped)
time of "W&G" = yes. W&G describes a human condition, an experience; it is not a place, not a location. There is no clear description linking "W&G" with time. So we cannot conclude that since "W&G" is relative that there is no possibility of 1,000 year exclusion from the Kingdom reward.

The Bible shows us two ways God executes His judgments: 1.) An absolute, permanent type and 2.) a relative, temporary type. Sometimes both are somewhat combined.

Examples of 1.)
Adam and Eve sinned = expelled from Paradise
Disobedient Israelites = "they shall never enter My rest"
Moses failed the Lord = excluded from entering the Good Land
Esau sold his birthright = lost it and could not get it back
Homosexuals, etc. = will not inherit the Kingdom
Not in the book of life = lake of fire

Examples of 2.)
Adam sinned = ground is cursed, through toil you will eat of it
Unfaitfhul servants = "some will be beaten with many blows, some with few blows"
Unforgiving brother = "Reconcile quickly, you may see the judge, he may hand you to the officer, you may be thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny."
"God’s righteous judgment" = God “will repay each one according to his deeds.”
The dead = "And the dead were judged according to their deeds"

Sons to Glory! · 06-25-2022, 08:49 AM

I told the Lord this morning that I feared the Bema judgement, because I am not fully convinced I am faithful in the few things He's given me. The more I look into the judgement of both regenerated and unregenerated, the more I'm not so confident in what I thought I knew! (knowledge, like Paul says, will fail) And while John relates that, "Perfect love casts out fear," scripture still has a lot to say about the fear of the Lord being good for the soul. So maybe we need both the carrot and the stick to help us . . .

And the more I look into the subject of the final judgement of hell, the more I see that this judgment for unregenerated is probably not exactly what I thought (eternal, conscious torment), and that there certainly are passages that could be construed as annihilation of the soul or perhaps even universalism . . . there are verses that seem to support each view. Likewise are verses that seem to show various regarding the Bema.

So to me, it's like I told a brother recently: "Whatever its exact nature is (the final judgment of hell), it's not going to be a pleasant thing!" I view what will happen at the Bema in a similar way - there certainly will be accountability for things done in the body after we are saved, and that has the potential to be quite good or quite unpleasant!

Ohio · 06-25-2022, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

W&G describes a human condition, an experience; it is not a place, not a location. There is no clear description linking "W&G" with time. So we cannot conclude that since "W&G" is relative that there is no possibility of 1,000 year exclusion from the Kingdom reward.

It seems that the Millennial Kingdom begins with a great wedding feast. Perhaps missing that feast, being "outside," will limit the extent of time for "W & G."

Sons to Glory! · 06-25-2022, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

It seems that the Millennial Kingdom begins with a great wedding feast. Perhaps missing that feast, being "outside," will limit the extent of time for "W & G."

That is an interesting thought, and could be! Imagine such a festal gathering - like nothing ever experienced in this universe before, and missing out on that (especially when you knew some of your brothers & sisters were in there)! Oh my, that would be a BIG TIME cause for much W & G!!!

Timotheist · 06-28-2022, 12:59 PM

Regarding the judgement of the saved, I guess it all boils down to this:

"You can live, but I ain't gonna marry you."

Raptor · 06-28-2022, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Regarding the judgement of the saved, I guess it all boils down to this:

"You can live, but I ain't gonna marry you."

"And you can´t sit on My throne."

Raptor · 07-10-2022, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Good stuff, Raptor. I am gonna steal this idea.
Although you left one out: “If you do not overcome, you will be hurt by the second death”

You´re right, I missed that one. I think there is a thick veil and thick ear plugs among a great number of believers causing them to conclude that nothing "bad" can happen to them before God because they think, "I am saved" or "I am going to heaven" or "all my sins have been forgiven." That´s why the Spirit appeals seven times to the churches, to the believers, emphasizing the need to "hear" to understand.

Sons to Glory! · 07-10-2022, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

You´re right, I missed that one. I think there is a thick veil and thick ear plugs among a great number of believers causing them to conclude that nothing "bad" can happen to them before God because they think, "I am saved" or "I am going to heaven" or "all my sins have been forgiven." That´s why the Spirit appeals seven times to the churches, to the believers, emphasizing the need to "hear" to understand.

Yes, there is something to overcome, good fruit to be produced, a race to win, and a good fight to fight. And there will be rewards and accountability for what we have done in this life with this amazing grace we've been given in Christ!

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who operates in you." (Phil 2:12)

Christ has been "installed" in our deepest part, but we still must exercise our will to agree, trust and cooperate with His operation in us. Truly we only need to be faithful in the few things He has given each of us, and He will thereby mature us and cause a good increase according to His life in us.

Raptor · 07-20-2022, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Happy to be corrected on this, but..
The section of the chapter being referenced is about believers taking other believers to secular court. Paul then argues that since believers will one day judge the world, they should be able to judge disputes amount themselves. That it would be better for a believer to be defrauded rather then have unbelievers to settle an dispute between believers in Christ. Why? Because unbelievers will not inherit the Kingdom of God, they are known for by the sins they do. Believers, however, have been cleansed from those sins and are now known only as belonging to Christ. While believers may fall into those sins, their identity is in christ. This is how I view that portion chapter 6. It’s a warning and a stern passage about why we shouldn’t take fellow believers to court and has the rational for that message. I don’t see it as a warning about believers who are saved by Grace, that they will be cast into an out darkness for 1,000 years to be transformed further.

The section of the chapter being referenced is about sexual immorality and the passivity in the church that failed for not dealing with a wicked, sexually immoral brother, a believer. Paul starts to address this topic all the way back at the beginning of chapter 5 and continues all the way to the end of chapter 6.

Beginning in chapter 5:1, 2
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is intolerable even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been stricken with grief and have removed from your fellowship the man who did this?

Ending in chapter 6:18-20
Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a man can commit is outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.

The issues of believers taking other believers to secular court is a minor subpoint within the context of sexual immorality and not judging correctly within the church. It is a "parenthesis". Paul rebukes the Corinthians for not judging within the church, for not expelling the wicked, sexually immoral brother (v. 5:12,13). And not only did they fail to judge within the church, but they even took each other to court to be judged outside the church. That is it; it is an illustration of their warped inability to judge the fornicating and adulterous brother within the church and at the same time, taking each other to secular courts outside the church to be judged by outsiders for trivial matters. It´s not the main point.

So then Paul continues with the main point after that "parenthesis" addressing believers, "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Neither the sexually immoral,....will inherit the kingdom of God?" Note that he is talking about acts, works, actions, and NOT whether a person believes or does not believe in the Son of God. And he is talking about "inheriting the kingdom of God", not being saved and receiving the gift of eternal life. He is not talking about unbelievers that will not enter the kingdom of God because of their unbelief. He is talking about wicked actions from believers that will disqualify them from inheriting the kingdom reward. This is gospel basics, salvation is by faith, not by works. Once you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation, but your works and actions will determine if you receive the reward of the kingdom or not.

These whole two chapters are addressing sexual immorality by a believer within the church. It makes no sense that Paul would mention so many points about this topic and then issue a stern warning to believers trying to convince them that unbelievers will not inherit the kingdom of God. They already know that, everybody knows that. Unbelievers do not enter the kingdom of God as a consequence of their unbelief, NOT because they commited wicked works. The phrase "inherit the kingdom of God" is NOT referring to eternal salvation. It refers to faithful believers being qualified and approved to receive the kingdom reward as an inheritance.

This is corroborated by Galatians 5:16-21 where Paul is clearly addressing believers with the same warning and is using the same phrasing, words, structure and logic: So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.....The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

And Ephesians 5:3-5, again clearly speaking to believers with the same topic, and warning, : "But among you, as is proper among the saints, there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk, or crude joking, which are out of character, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

All these three similar and corroborating portions are clearly warnings addressed to believers and the consequences if they have undealt wicked actions or works after they are saved, that is, not inheriting the kingdom of God. You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body. He who has an ear let him hear.

Zezima · 07-20-2022, 11:47 AM

I hope you stretched adequately before you performed these mental gymnastics.
-

Sons to Glory! · 07-20-2022, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

I hope you stretched adequately before you performed these mental gymnastics.

So in reading through what you and Raptor are discussing, is the bottom-line that you think no believer will be excluded from the kingdom reward?

Zezima · 07-20-2022, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So in reading through what you and Raptor are discussing, is the bottom-line that you think no believer will be excluded from the kingdom reward?

Correct, there maybe rewards in the kingdom one receives. But every true believer will be included in the kingdom. Other wise we are saved by works not by faith.

Galatians 5 which raptor cherry picked, is talking about walking according the spirit and the fruit of that, vs walking according to the flesh and the fruit of that. Believers who have been born again might fall, but it’s impossible for them to habitually live in sin because they have the holy spirit in them, the spirit will not let them.

Sons to Glory! · 07-20-2022, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Correct, there maybe rewards in the kingdom one receives. But every true believer will be included in the kingdom. Other wise we are saved by works not by faith.

I wonder if there's some nuance to the idea that every believer will be in the kingdom - does that mean all will rule and reign there, or will some have lessor roles without the ruling aspect? The three servants in Luke 19 (parallel to Matt 25) speaks of some rewarded with being placed over 5 cities and others being over 10 cities, etc. So there is proportional rewards relative to how faithful and obedient believers are to their Lord. One could argue that the unprofitable servant (who was a believer) didn't make it to the kingdom, or at least was in a dark place within it perhaps . . .

Agree that we are certainly not saved by works, but I don't know that we can make the case that being born again also guarantees a full ride into the kingdom!

Zezima · 07-20-2022, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

but I don't know that we can make the case that being born again also guarantees a full ride into the kingdom!

John 3 tells us “no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.”

Once you’re born again you’re already in the kingdom.

Timotheist · 07-21-2022, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

John 3 tells us “no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.”

Once you’re born again you’re already in the kingdom.

Ahhh but which Kingdom? There is the 1000 year kingdom and the eternal kingdom.

Participation or not in the first is NOT just about salvation, but is a matter of the level of sanctification one received.

If you want to call sanctification "works" then so be it. But one must be "holy enough" to enter the first kingdom.

Sons to Glory! · 07-21-2022, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

John 3 tells us “no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.”

Once you’re born again you’re already in the kingdom.

I read that verse as being born again is a prerequisite to entering the kingdom, not a guarantee. No one who is not born again will enter the kingdom, and if you are born again you are eligible, but the possibility remains that you may not . . . at least that's how I see that verse.

So eternal salvation is assured (as His children with His Spirit and life in us), but there is also accountability for what we do with this grace we've been given - I think we agree on that. I suppose then the question is this - is the outer darkness in or outside of the kingdom?

Ohio · 07-21-2022, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

John 3 tells us “no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.”

Once you’re born again you’re already in the kingdom.

I have met people who are born again yet do not believe in God. Sound strange? Of course, but it’s true. I worked with a guy once who testified to me how he prayed and received the Lord as a young teen. He said that God was real at that time. But not any more. He was no longer “into religion.” His faith had died. I tried to revive his faith, but at that time his mind was made up. Perhaps he later had a change of heart.

This is why I reject simplistic conclusions. The scriptures are way more nuanced.

Zezima · 07-21-2022, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I read that verse as being born again is a prerequisite to entering the kingdom, not a guarantee. No one who is not born again will enter the kingdom, and if you are born again you are eligible, but the possibility remains that you may not . . . at least that's how I see that verse.

So eternal salvation is assured (as His children with His Spirit and life in us), but there is also accountability for what we do with this grace we've been given - I think we agree on that. I suppose then the question is this - is the outer darkness in or outside of the kingdom?

I view the outer darkness as gods eternal judgement, a place for unbelievers. Not believers.

Zezima · 07-21-2022, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is why I reject simplistic conclusions. The scriptures are way more nuanced.

The gospel is a pool in which a toddler can wade and an elephant can swim.

Sons to Glory! · 07-21-2022, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

I view the outer darkness as gods eternal judgement, a place for unbelievers. Not believers.

Why does the master tell the unfaithful servant (Matt 24 & 25 & in Luke 19) that he is going to outer darkness (or assigned a place with hypocrites)? Do you think the unfaithful servant was not born again?

There are many who think the unfaithful servant, in these parables, didn't belong to the Lord, but there's little reason given in scripture to think that. The Master approached all of them as His servants, spoke to all of them, gave them all something, expected something from each in return and came back to each of them looking for what they had done while He was away. Therefore there's accountability after coming into God's family/household - "Judgement begins at the house of God." (and in no way means they are "un-born" or lose eternal life)

It's a much bigger reach to say the unfaithful one wasn't a believer.

BTW: outer darkness probably doesn't equate with hell/eternal damnation (and I don't believe it does).

Ohio · 07-21-2022, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

The gospel is a pool in which a toddler can wade and an elephant can swim.

Nice, metaphor of the day!

Ohio · 07-21-2022, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

I view the outer darkness as gods eternal judgement, a place for unbelievers. Not believers.

But God uses fire to represent His eternal judgment.

Zezima · 07-21-2022, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Why does the master tell the unfaithful servant (Matt 24 & 25 & in Luke 19) that he is going to outer darkness (or assigned a place with hypocrites)? Do you think the unfaithful servant was not born again?

I think the unfaithful servant was not born again. I think this person was presented with a gift but did nothing with it. Much like those invited to the feast but didn’t come, or those who didn’t have oil in their lamp. The gospel is available to all, but there are those who will not accept it. Lots of people are Christian in name only.

HERn · 07-21-2022, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

The gospel is a pool in which a toddler can wade and an elephant can swim.

Yes! The gospel reaches the simple (Common Sense Not Needed: Bringing the Gospel to the Developmentally Disabled, Corrie ten Boom, 1956) all the way to geniuses like C. S. Lewis.

WARNING: The Corrie ten Boom book has not been approved by WL or any of the being blindeds!

HERn · 07-21-2022, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

The gospel is a pool in which a toddler can wade and an elephant can swim.

Quote from Dr. Leon Morris.

https://www.goodnews-church.co.uk/blog/2017/7/24/i-am

L. Morris, The Gospel of John (London: Marshall, 1971), p. 7.

07-21-2022, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

The gospel is a pool in which a toddler can wade and an elephant can swim.

What’s very unfortunate though, is that people in the local church are told that they are the only ones swimming in the deepest part of the ocean, meaning that they have the best truths. When in reality, they are just toddlers sitting in the kiddie pools, and thinking that they are swimming, while the mommy and daddy at the LSM create some fake waves to make them feel as if it is the best swimming experience of their life’s. Make some splashes local church members, make mommy and daddy feel proud of you!

Timotheist · 07-22-2022, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

I think the unfaithful servant was not born again. I think this person was presented with a gift but did nothing with it. Much like those invited to the feast but didn’t come, or those who didn’t have oil in their lamp. The gospel is available to all, but there are those who will not accept it. Lots of people are Christian in name only.

There is only one judgement parable in Matthew where the judgement results in death, and that is the judgement of the Gentile goats (unbelievers).

The rest are judgements that do not result in death. The most clearly stated case of this is the foolish virgins, who go out and fill their lamps, but the door is closed. These are NOT unbelievers.

If one thinks of salvation as a simple binary outcome: life or death, saved or unsaved, then one will remain confused. There are TWO books opened at the final judgement: one covering deeds, and the other determines life or death.

For a simple binary outcome, there would only be one book.

Sons to Glory! · 07-22-2022, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

I think the unfaithful servant was not born again. I think this person was presented with a gift but did nothing with it. Much like those invited to the feast but didn’t come, or those who didn’t have oil in their lamp. The gospel is available to all, but there are those who will not accept it. Lots of people are Christian in name only.

The fact that all were virgins and all had lamps indicates they were believers. Unbelievers are not referred to in the bible anywhere as virgins or lights. The differentiator between the wise and foolish virgins is whether they carried enough oil in their vessel. Oil signifies the Spirit - so while they had some supply to keep their lamps lit, they didn't carry enough. This signifies believers who haven't let the Spirit move into all the parts of their being, with a result they were not ready for the Bridegroom. Therefore they suffered a consequence of being shut out of the wedding feast because of their not storing up enough oil.

There is grace, then accountability for what we do with that grace: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God Who operates in you." Phil 2:12

Zezima · 07-22-2022, 12:58 PM

Quote:

The fact that all were virgins and all had lamps indicates they were believers

No it doesn’t.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

The differentiator between the wise and foolish virgins is whether they carried enough oil in their vessel. Oil signifies the Spirit - so while they had some supply to keep their lamps lit, they didn't carry enough.

The foolish virgins had no oil.

Zezima · 07-22-2022, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

There is only one If one thinks of salvation as a simple binary outcome: life or death, saved or unsaved, then one will remain confused. There are TWO books opened at the final judgement: one covering deeds, and the other determines life or death.

That is the outcome of salvation if you believe salvation by grace through faith. The two books are for different groups, the unbelievers are judged by their deeds because God is righteous. The Believers are in the book of life and counted as righteous through Jesus Christ.

The parables are spoken to the disciples, and then Jesus at the end of his parables clarifies what it means (sheep and goats). He does this with all his parables throughout all his ministry. It’s no different here.

I could be wrong, it just doesn’t make sense for the Bible to say you’re saved through Jesus, but then say your saved by what you do. There maybe rewards for more faithful, but that’s not what I think the three parables in discussion are about.

Sons to Glory! · 07-22-2022, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

I could be wrong, it just doesn’t make sense for the Bible to say you’re saved through Jesus, but then say your saved by what you do. There maybe rewards for more faithful, but that’s not what I think the three parables in discussion are about.

And I think that's a good clarification to make. When we say "saved" to me it means they are regenerated/born again and become children of the Most High. They won't ever become un-born, but they can be held accountable and rewarded for deeds done after becoming children.

Sons to Glory! · 07-22-2022, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

No it doesn’t. (referring to they are believers if they are virgins and have light)

The foolish virgins had no oil.

How do you support your first statement? Are unbelievers referred to as virgins or do they have light? Are they hearing the midnight cry to go forth? Are unbelievers then going forth to meet the Bridegroom?

The foolish virgins started with light, so where did that come from? Was it just a wick burning by itself? The wick must have at least had a small amount of oil to enable the wick to light, but not enough oil to keep it burning very long.

Zezima · 07-22-2022, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And I think that's a good clarification to make. When we say "saved" to me it means they are regenerated/born again and become children of the Most High. They won't ever become un-born, but they can be held accountable and rewarded for deeds done after becoming children.

Very true, I don’t think outer darkness is where they are held accountable either. You mentioned the phoenix suns earlier. I think the rewards will be something like, we are all Suns fans and get to be at a suns game. Some might be floor side, some might be upper bowl but we are all at the game enjoying the same thing. Maybe that’s not the best example, but that’s how I best can articulate.

Quote:

How do you support your first statement? Are unbelievers referred to as virgins or do they have light? Are they hearing the midnight cry to go forth? Are unbelievers then going forth to meet the Bridegroom?

The foolish virgins started with light, so where did that come from? Was it just a wick burning by itself? The wick must have at least had a small amount of oil to enable the wick to light, but not enough oil to keep it burning very long.

The foolish never started with light. I personally read this parable as is, without really attributing much meaning to specific items. With the backdrop of first century weddings, it’s a great picture of a group of people whom one was ready for the event and one was not. Oil was available, just like salvation is available. One group got it, one didn’t.

All the parables to me hit home that salivation (the kingdom of god) is available to all, but if you don’t take it or accept it…then there’s consequences aka outer darkness. He’s teaching his disciples before he orders them to disciple all, that in the end salvation is needed, Christ is needed.

Timotheist · 07-25-2022, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

The foolish never started with light.

ummm, they did have light, but not enough oil to sustain light.

A very clear picture of incomplete/insufficient sanctification.

There is salvation, then there is sanctification. One is God's choice, the other involves our choices. The foolish ladies will live, but not without loss.

Zezima · 07-25-2022, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

ummm, they did have light, but not enough oil to sustain light.

Thank you, that’s a typo. I meant to say that the foolish never had oil. Oil is widely available. I think the foolish weren’t born again believers, they were those who were Christian in name only.

Quote:

A very clear picture of incomplete/insufficient sanctification.

I think there’s a argument to be made that it could mean this. I personally don’t subscribe to it because it causes a pursuit of God out of fear, and creates a very legalistic walk for me. Maybe that’s the trauma of the recovery talking, but I tend to reject a lot of doctrine that causes such feeling in me.

Raptor · 07-25-2022, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Believers who have been born again might fall, but it’s impossible for them to habitually live in sin because they have the holy spirit in them, the spirit will not let them.

That is simply not true; that statement is not supported by the word of God nor by the experiences of believers as recognized by them and witnessed by others.

Timotheist · 07-25-2022, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

That is simply not true; that statement is not supported by the word of God nor by the experiences of believers as recognized by them and witnessed by others.

Agreed.

And to pass judgement on backsliding believers, calling them unsaved, is perhaps a dangerous occupation.

O.J. Simpson likely has eternal life. I personally would not condemn him so quickly.

Zezima · 07-25-2022, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

That is simply not true; that statement is not supported by the word of God nor by the experiences of believers as recognized by them and witnessed by others.

Can you clarify what about that statement is not true?

Nell · 07-25-2022, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Believers who have been born again might fall, but it’s impossible for them to habitually live in sin because they have the holy spirit in them, the spirit will not let them.

Zezima,

This is your opinion, and, in my opinion, is not based in fact. If this were true, because of the sinful "brothers" in the Local Church of Witness Lee, said LC would no longer exist, having been disallowed by the Holy Spirit.

We (believers and unbelievers) were given a free will...freedom to chose. Even the Holy Spirit Himself does not violate the free will he gave us. If believers chooses to live in sin, the Holy Spirit will "let them". The Holy Spirit doesn't force himself on on anyone, including believers. We are not puppets dangling from strings controlled by the Holy Spirit.

IMHO,
Nell

Ohio · 07-25-2022, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

That is simply not true; that statement is not supported by the word of God nor by the experiences of believers as recognized by them and witnessed by others.

Agreed. We should also note that in Apostle Paul’s final letter, he speaks about how some Christians will behave. Read 2 Timothy chapter 3. It’s an eye opener.

Ohio · 07-25-2022, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Agreed.

And to pass judgement on backsliding believers, calling them unsaved, is perhaps a dangerous occupation.

O.J. Simpson likely has eternal life. I personally would not condemn him so quickly.

OJ has made a confession of faith?

Zezima · 07-25-2022, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

That is simply not true; that statement is not supported by the word of God.

The majority of 1 John (written to Christians) supports this, especially chapter 3 and some of chapter 5.

Quote:

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. - 1 John 3:6 ESV

The amplified version expands on the idea, see below.

Quote:

No one who abides in Him [who remains united in fellowship with Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin. No one who habitually sins has seen Him or known Him. - 1 John 3:6 AMP

Further, into the chapter

Quote:

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's[b] seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." - 1 John 3:9-10 ESV

The amplified version expands on the idea:

Quote:

"No one who is born of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, because [a]God’s seed [His principle of life, the essence of His righteous character] remains [permanently] in him [who is born again—who is reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose]; and he [who is born again] cannot habitually [live a life characterized by] sin, because he is born of God and longs to please Him." - 1 John 3:9 AMP

Also in 1 John 5 we see this verse:

Quote:

We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him - 1 John 5:18

.

The amplified version expands on the idea:

Quote:

We know [with confidence] that anyone born of God does not habitually sin; but He (Jesus) who was born of God [carefully] keeps and protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. - 1 John 5:18

These verses don't mean Christians go on to live perfect lives, but when we are born again, our nature changes. A fish cannot remain on land for a long time because its nature is to seek water.

Trapped · 07-26-2022, 12:31 AM

Definitely agree with Zezima on the topic of habitual sin being incompatible with a genuine believer. 1 John is exactly what I thought of too.

Additionally, when we have a believer in sin as described in Matthew 18, if they continue on in the sin or in denying their offense, we are explicitly told to treat them as an unbeliever! Not "oh, just another believer in habitual sin".

2 Timothy 3 is most definitely not concerning believers. Verse 8 even says "these men oppose truth" and "these kinds of people are disqualified from the faith". That chapter does not describe believers.

Trapped

Nell · 07-26-2022, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

... Believers who have been born again might fall, but it’s impossible for them to habitually live in sin because they have the holy spirit in them, the spirit will not let them.

We may not be too far apart.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

From Matthew Henry's Commentary on 1 John 5:18

"Here we have, I. A recapitulation of the privileges and advantages of sound Christian believers. 1. They are secured against sin, against the fulness of its dominion or the fulness of its guilt: We know that whosoever is born of God (and the believer in Christ is born of God, v. 1) sinneth not (v. 18), sinneth not with that fulness of heart and spirit that the unregenerate do (as was said ch. iii. 6, 9), and consequently not with that fulness of guilt that attends the sins of others; and so he is secured against that sin which is unavoidably unto death, or which infallibly binds the sinner over unto the wages of eternal death; the new nature, and the inhabitation of the divine Spirit thereby, prevent the admission of such unpardonable sin.

2. They are fortified against the devil's destructive attempts: He that is begotten of God keepeth himself, that is, is enabled to guard himself, and the wicked one toucheth him not (v. 18), that is, that the wicked one may not touch him, namely, to death.

It seems not to be barely a narration of the duty or the practice of the regenerate; but an indication of their power by virtue of their regeneration. They are thereby prepared and principled against the fatal touches, the sting, of the wicked one; he touches not their souls, to infuse his venom there a he does in others, or to expel that regenerative principle which is an antidote to his poison, or to induce them to that sin which by the gospel constitution conveys an indissoluble obligation to eternal death.

He may prevail too far with them, to draw them to some acts of sin; but it seems to be the design of the apostle to assert that their regeneration secures them from such assaults of the devil as will bring them into the same case and actual condemnation with the devil.

3. They are on God's side and interest, in opposition to the state of the world: And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness,..."

What do you think?
Nell

Nell · 07-26-2022, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

...
2 Timothy 3 is most definitely not concerning believers. Verse 8 even says "these men oppose truth" and "these kinds of people are disqualified from the faith". That chapter does not describe believers.
Trapped

Rather than speak with authority, I think these kinds of statements should include qualifiers like "in my opinion" or "I could be wrong, but...". Leave some room for the Holy Spirit to confirm your beliefs, or not.

Nell

Timotheist · 07-26-2022, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

OJ has made a confession of faith?

"Kris (Jenner) said: “Nicole came over to the house, [and] we were talking about O.J. not being true blue,” Kris told me. “She said that he had promised to turn his whole life around. He was going to be baptized at the wedding.” O.J. was taking Bible study classes with Robert Kardashian’s brother, Tom, and both men “were getting a lot out of it. … I remember thinking, ‘This is great. Everything’s changing for them.’ ” It did—and it didn’t."

"Believe and be baptized and you will be saved."

I could be wrong, but in my opinion O.J. likely has eternal life.

Ohio · 07-26-2022, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

"Kris (Jenner) said: “Nicole came over to the house, [and] we were talking about O.J. not being true blue,” Kris told me. “She said that he had promised to turn his whole life around. He was going to be baptized at the wedding.” O.J. was taking Bible study classes with Robert Kardashian’s brother, Tom, and both men “were getting a lot out of it. … I remember thinking, ‘This is great. Everything’s changing for them.’ ” It did—and it didn’t."

"Believe and be baptized and you will be saved."

I could be wrong, but in my opinion O.J. likely has eternal life.

Nicely said.

Trapped · 07-27-2022, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Rather than speak with authority, I think these kinds of statements should include qualifiers like "in my opinion" or "I could be wrong, but...". Leave some room for the Holy Spirit to confirm your beliefs, or not.

Nell

Just like I would have no problem saying, "the Bible definitely includes belief that Jesus is Lord as a requirement for salvation" without needing to add qualifiers or IMOs, so also I have no problem saying, "When 2 Timothy 3 clearly describes men as 'opposing the truth' and 'disqualified from the faith' they are definitely not genuine believers" without needing to add qualifiers or IMOs.

Inherent in your post seems to be the belief that I have NOT gotten confirmation from the Holy Spirit! Just playing a bit there

but also that thought does seem to be present. I think there are some things that the Holy Spirit might say....."what are you waiting for confirmation about? The Bible couldn't be clearer about it! Stand firm on the Word of God!"

I am not speaking with authority and to my recollection have never claimed to do so. The Bible has the authority and I just pointed to what it says. I examined the word before I said what I said. If I'm wrong, which is always possible, this is a discussions forum and anyone is welcome to make their "dissenting" case from the Bible. I won't have a problem if they don't include qualifiers or IMOs as they lay out their case.

Thanks,

Trapped

Ohio · 07-27-2022, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

Just like I would have no problem saying, "the Bible definitely includes belief that Jesus is Lord as a requirement for salvation" without needing to add qualifiers or IMOs, so also I have no problem saying, "When 2 Timothy 3 clearly describes men as 'opposing the truth' and 'disqualified from the faith' they are definitely not genuine believers" without needing to add qualifiers or IMOs.

Paul is instructing Timothy concerning ministers and teachings in the church, not outsiders. All of those in Asia within the church had abandoned him. Paul spoke of a “great house” having both honorable and dishonorable vessels, and cautioned Timothy not to argue with these ones or get entangled with foolish speculations. These ministers had a deceptive form of godliness only. Today these same ones use the TV and the internet to creep into homes and captivate women for base gains.

Trapped · 07-27-2022, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul is instructing Timothy concerning ministers and teachings in the church, not outsiders. All of those in Asia within the church had abandoned him. Paul spoke of a “great house” having both honorable and dishonorable vessels, and cautioned Timothy not to argue with these ones or get entangled with foolish speculations. These ministers had a deceptive form of godliness only. Today these same ones use the TV and the internet to creep into homes and captivate women for base gains.

I didn't speak to whether they were in or out of the church....insiders or outsiders. I said they were not genuine believers. Just like Paul warns in Acts that "savage wolves will come in among you".....yes those savage wolves are in the church ("among you"), but they are wolves, not sheep or shepherds. They are not genuine believers. A minister with a "deceptive form of godliness only" is not a genuine believer! Someone claiming to be of God's house but who is actually not. Like the false apostles.......not real apostles. Trying to claim they are, but are actually not.

Trapped

Nell · 07-27-2022, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

Just like I would have no problem saying, "the Bible definitely includes belief that Jesus is Lord as a requirement for salvation" without needing to add qualifiers or IMOs, so also I have no problem saying, "When 2 Timothy 3 clearly describes men as 'opposing the truth' and 'disqualified from the faith' they are definitely not genuine believers" without needing to add qualifiers or IMOs.

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

We generally read scripture and interpret passages according to our own understanding. What we are not qualified to do is to judge the hearts of men. This is my problem with your interpretation of 2 Timothy 3.

I have a belief that many in the Local Church leadership "oppose the truth", but I cannot say that they are definitely not genuine believers. What does "disqualified from the faith" really mean? Does it mean that someone is "definitely not a genuine believer"?

Quote:

Inherent in your post seems to be the belief that I have NOT gotten confirmation from the Holy Spirit! Just playing a bit there

but also that thought does seem to be present. I think there are some things that the Holy Spirit might say....."what are you waiting for confirmation about? The Bible couldn't be clearer about it! Stand firm on the Word of God!"

Well, have you? Have you gotten confirmation from the Holy Spirit regarding your interpretation of 2 Timothy 3?

Quote:

I am not speaking with authority and to my recollection have never claimed to do so. The Bible has the authority and I just pointed to what it says. I examined the word before I said what I said. If I'm wrong, which is always possible, this is a discussions forum and anyone is welcome to make their "dissenting" case from the Bible. I won't have a problem if they don't include qualifiers or IMOs as they lay out their case.

"When 2 Timothy 3 clearly describes men as 'opposing the truth' and 'disqualified from the faith' they are definitely not genuine believers" without needing to add qualifiers or IMOs.

Statements like this take on some "authority" whether intentional or not; it implies, in my mind, that you do have confirmation of the Holy Spirit and takes on an implication of judgment of the hearts of men. Its a teaching.

I believe 2 Timothy 3 speaks for itself. The teaching: "They are definitely not genuine believers" is not part of the text. It's interpretation of the text. The phrases 'opposing the truth' and 'disqualified from the faith' are not as clear as they might seem.

I know. I'm teaching too. But you're right...this can be discussed.

That and this is waaaaaayyyy off topic.

Nell

Trapped · 07-27-2022, 12:02 PM

I respect your right to your opinion, but my comment was just like 1000s of other comments on this forum. Even within this thread people have made un-qualified claims and didn't get this kind of response. I stand behind what I said and have provided additional examples from other verses and in other comments, and anyone is welcome to make a different case. Requiring that every read of the Bible must have an explicit experience of the HS, or questioning my experiences with the Lord, or stating that phrases might mean something else without providing at least one example of what they might otherwise mean just come across as baseless nitpicking and I'm not interested in it.

I'm also not interested in claims of authority. You are adding the label "authority" to what I write, not me, or the way I write. Please focus on the content of what I said and provide alternates, rather than make up false claims about my intentions or apparent inability to perfectly craft a sentence to your liking, etc. Thanks.

Trapped

Nell · 07-27-2022, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

I respect your right to your opinion, but my comment was just like 1000s of other comments on this forum. Even within this thread people have made un-qualified claims and didn't get this kind of response.

Trapped,

I apologize, but I intended that my remarks be generic and a suggestion to all. Not specifically to your comment. Sorry.

Quote:

MY COMMENT: Rather than speak with authority, I think these kinds of statements should include qualifiers like "in my opinion" or "I could be wrong, but...". Leave some room for the Holy Spirit to confirm your beliefs, or not.

Quote:

I stand behind what I said and have provided additional examples from other verses and in other comments, and anyone is welcome to make a different case. Requiring that every read of the Bible must have an explicit experience of the HS, or questioning my experiences with the Lord, or stating that phrases might mean something else without providing at least one example of what they might otherwise mean just come across as baseless nitpicking and I'm not interested in it.

In my suggestion, I don't see any "requirement" or "must have" or "explicit" experience of any kind. It's just what I think and suggested as such. Please point this out to me and I will apologize. That is certainly not what I believe to be my place in the life of another, and not what I intended.

Quote:

I'm also not interested in claims of authority. You are adding the label "authority" to what I write, not me, or the way I write. Please focus on the content of what I said and provide alternates, rather than make up false claims about my intentions or apparent inability to perfectly craft a sentence to your liking, etc. Thanks.

Trapped

I'm not sure what you're referring to. "Make up false claims?" I have no intention to "label" anything. As I said, the statement "They are definitely not genuine believers" seems to imply an authority and factually accurate knowledge to make that determination regarding the soul of another. Maybe we have different definitions of "authority". The phrases "oppose the truth", "disqualified from the faith", in my opinion, do not clearly identify someone as not a believer...I could be wrong.

I had no intention to make disparaging remarks about your walk with the Lord or your interaction with the Holy Spirit.

I apologize for my part in this conflict. Please forgive me.

Nell

If you need to discuss further, suggest we use the PM system.

Trapped · 07-27-2022, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Trapped,

I apologize, but I intended that my remarks be generic and a suggestion to all. Not specifically to your comment. Sorry.

In my suggestion, I don't see any "requirement" or "must have" or "explicit" experience of any kind. It's just what I think and suggested as such. Please point this out to me and I will apologize. That is certainly not what I believe to be my place in the life of another, and not what I intended.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. "Make up false claims?" I have no intention to "label" anything. As I said, the statement "They are definitely not genuine believers" seems to imply an authority and factually accurate knowledge to make that determination regarding the soul of another. Maybe we have different definitions of "authority". The phrases "oppose the truth", "disqualified from the faith", in my opinion, do not clearly identify someone as not a believer...I could be wrong.

I had no intention to make disparaging remarks about your walk with the Lord or your interaction with the Holy Spirit.

I apologize for my part in this conflict. Please forgive me.

Nell

If you need to discuss further, suggest we use the PM system.

Totally forgiven. If I'm at fault in any way, please also accept my apologies. Let's get back to the topic at hand.

Trapped

Nell · 07-28-2022, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

Totally forgiven. If I'm at fault in any way, please also accept my apologies. Let's get back to the topic at hand.

Trapped

All is well. Need to figure out which topic to get back to

Nell

Timotheist · 07-28-2022, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

All is well. Need to figure out which topic to get back to

Nell

Random thought, but on topic:

An assumption among many commenting on this thread so far is that salvation (eternal life) and entrance into the kingdom of God are synonymous terms.

I propose that the saved are a larger group, of which a percentage participate in the kingdom. So that would mean the terms are NOT synonyms.

Now I believe that most of the judgement parables are referring to entrance into the 1000 year kingdom of the Son, and there will be many that are saved but will miss out. I realize that some of you disagree with this point.

But even in the New Creation, there will be those living outside the New Jerusalem, receiving life-sustaining "leaves" from the tree of life, but will not have the privilege of eating the "fruit".

What do you think distinguishes "leaves" from "fruit"?

Nell · 07-28-2022, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Random thought, but on topic:

An assumption among many commenting on this thread so far is that salvation (eternal life) and entrance into the kingdom of God are synonymous terms.

I propose that the saved are a larger group, of which a percentage participate in the kingdom. So that would mean the terms are NOT synonyms.

Now I believe that most of the judgement parables are referring to entrance into the 1000 year kingdom of the Son, and there will be many that are saved but will miss out. I realize that some of you disagree with this point.

But even in the New Creation, there will be those living outside the New Jerusalem, receiving life-sustaining "leaves" from the tree of life, but will not have the privilege of eating the "fruit".

What do you think distinguishes "leaves" from "fruit"?

These terms don't seem synonymous to me either. Because of Revelation 22:1-4 or so.

Rev. 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The leaves seem to have a function of healing the nations whereas the fruit, logically, is for feeding. The fruit and leaves are apparently on the same tree/s.

We would need to know who are the "nations"? The leaves of the tree were for their healing. There are 19 references to the "nations" in the Revelation which mostly include other groups with the nations "... the people and kindreds and tongues." Apparently at some point the nations have suffered to the point of a serious need of healing.

I have been cured (healed?) of my belief, which I was taught from childhood, in the blanket pre-tribulation rapture of all believers. Hence, I don't assume that all believers have been raptured at this point Maybe the nations are, in part, some of those believers who are not yet raptured.

Bottom line, I don't know what I think. I need to ask the Lord to tell me what I think.

Nell

UntoHim · 07-28-2022, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

An assumption among many commenting on this thread so far is that salvation (eternal life) and entrance into the kingdom of God are synonymous terms. I propose that the saved are a larger group, of which a percentage participate in the kingdom. So that would mean the terms are NOT synonyms.

I'm not so sure that the apostle Paul, or the believers in Colossae, would agree with you here.

He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son
Colossians 1:13 ESV

When the apostle writes that the Father "has delivered us from the domain of darkness", is he not referring to our salvation? If not, what deliverance is he referring to? When the apostle writes that we've been transferred to "the kingdom of his beloved Son", is he not referring to the kingdom of God? If not, what kingdom is he referring to?

I think we would all do well to not unreservedly parse out what is, and what is not, the kingdom of God, and who is, and who is not a part of or a participant in this kingdom. To be sure, the Millennial Kingdom will be an era and a place which will become the ultimate fulfillment of "thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven". I would submit that any part of and participation in the Millennial Kingdom we may enjoy will be based upon how much, or how little, we were a part of and a participant in the kingdom of God coming to Earth as it is in Heaven. The same apostle Paul also advised the Philippians to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling". So maybe we all would do better with fewer firm declarations about the kingdom of God, and be working out our own salvation with a little more fear and a little more trembling, lest we fall into the category of becoming people who are "so heavenly minded that they are of no earthly good". Just sayin....
-

Timotheist · 07-28-2022, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I'm not so sure that the apostle Paul, or the believers in Colossae, would agree with you here.

He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son
Colossians 1:13 ESV

-[/COLOR]

Nice seque! Paul specifically says "Kingdom of His Son" in this verse, not the "Kingdom of God". So is this kingdom the 1000 year period or the eternal kingdom? or both?

The following passage contains a tidbit that I did not realize for many years...

Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

This passage pretty much answers the question: There are two Kingdoms: the first is the Kingdom of the Son, and the second is the Kingdom of the Father. The way the parable reads, the Kingdom of the Son starts after the first resurrection, thus it is the Millennial Kingdom. The judgement at the end of the parable would then be the Great White Throne, which ushers in the New Creation.

So my take on your verse is that Paul is telling the Colossians that they will not be cast into outer darkness during the first kingdom. This privilege is a reward, not an assurance to all believers, IMO. Because if we take this as an assurance to all believers, then the other parables in Matthew make little sense to me.

And BTW, if any of us believers are still sinning at the end of the Millennium, then perhaps we deserve more than a period of Outer Darkness as punishment.

Ohio · 07-28-2022, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

We would need to know who are the "nations"? The leaves of the tree were for their healing. There are 19 references to the "nations" in the Revelation which mostly include other groups with the nations "... the people and kindreds and tongues." Apparently at some point the nations have suffered to the point of a serious need of healing.

Nell

Some late 19th Century writers like Govett and Panton surmised that the “sheep” in the parable in Matt 25 were the “nations” outside of the New Jerusalem. They took note that these sheep “entered into eternal life” due to how they treated God’s children, but did not have eternal life within as we do by faith.

They need the healing of the leaves of the NJ, the ruling by the believers, and the instructions of the Jewish priests how to worship and serve God.

Raptor · 07-29-2022, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Believers who have been born again might fall, but it’s impossible for them to habitually live in sin because they have the holy spirit in them, the spirit will not let them. Can you clarify what about that statement is not true?

The whole point of chap. 1 Cor. 5-6 is to describe a wicked brother who lived in the flesh and who was sinning in worse ways than unbelievers. It deals with his unrepentance, the church's inaction to remove the evil brother, and Paul´s intervention and warnings.

No, the Holy Spirit did not intervene as to "not let him" sin. But rather the evil brother disobeyed the Lord´s word and commandments, suppressed his own conscience, rejected the Holy Spirit within him and lived according to the flesh. He did not deny himself nor deal with his passions and lusts. This resulted in his sexually immoral behavior commiting fornication in an incestuous and adulterous way with his father´s wife.

His fleshy, unrepentant condition and the church´s inaction caused Paul to intervene to deliver the wicked brother to Satan, judged to have his flesh destroyed so that his spirit may be saved.

Timotheist · 07-29-2022, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Some late 19th Century writers like Govett and Panton surmised that the “sheep” in the parable in Matt 25 were the “nations” outside of the New Jerusalem. They took note that these sheep “entered into eternal life” due to how they treated God’s children, but did not have eternal life within as we do by faith.

They need the healing of the leaves of the NJ, the ruling by the believers, and the instructions of the Jewish priests how to worship and serve God.

I mostly agree with this, but to elaborate more, here is my take on who will make up the Nations in the New Creation:

1) None of the "goats" in Matt 25. they are the living unbelievers who survive until the second coming, and are immediately tossed into the LOF.
2) The "sheep" in Matt 25, described as you did here. They will be allowed entrance into the Son's kingdom, to be ruled and reigned over by the kings and priests for 1000 years. I would venture to suggest that not ALL of these sheep will survive a second judgement. 1000 years is a long time, and they must be actively obedient to these leaders (and to Christ). Some, I fear, will resist and join Satan in the final rebellion. These are among the "tares" mentioned in that other parable.
3) Unbelieving Israelites (like the rich man in Luke). They will be resurrected and allowed a second chance during the Son's kingdom. Their reward, like the obedient sheep, will be eternal life (also contingent upon continued obedience).
4) Believers who were judged at the Son's judgement seat and cast into Outer Darkness. They are described in the parable of the sower as those who initially received the Word of God but walked away. They will be saved through fire, but are not holy enough to dwell in the NJ.
5) And finally, a portion of the unbelievers who died and are not resurrected until the Great White Throne judgement. I believe this covers a segment of the population that never heard the gospel, but are saved nonetheless. They are given eternal life in a similar manner as the gentile sheep of Matt 25.

The parable of the Sower describes four different types of people, and the New Creation describes four outcomes:

1) The unholy. Those who have no eternal life and are tossed into the LOF.
2) The holy (Called). Not holy enough to draw close to the Throne, and will not get the TOL's fruit. But they will continue in eternal life via the water and the leaves distributed from the Throne. These are the "Nations".
3) The holier (Chosen). Primarily the Royal Priesthood who rule over the Nations. Out of the many who are "Called" these are the few "Chosen".
4) The holiest (Faithful). The Bride of the Lamb. Described as the "sons of Zadok" in Ezekiel. They are distinguished among the "Chosen" Levites as being also "Faithful".

This is Timotheism in a nutshell.

Timotheist · 07-29-2022, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

The leaves seem to have a function of healing the nations whereas the fruit, logically, is for feeding. The fruit and leaves are apparently on the same tree/s.

We would need to know who are the "nations"? The leaves of the tree were for their healing.

Nell

"Leaves", I believe, are meant to be "worn", not "eaten". Like when A&E sewed fig leaves together to cover their unholiness.

"Fruit", of course, is meant to be eaten.

So leaves result in an outward appearance of holiness, kinda like the priest's robes covering their nakedness in OT times. It is important that we keep these robes with us and wash them clean.

But to be holy underneath the robe is something totally different. The "fruit" maintains inward holiness, a requirement to draw near the throne in the New Creation.

Of course this is my opinion

Sons to Glory! · 07-29-2022, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

"Leaves", I believe, are meant to be "worn", not "eaten". Like when A&E sewed fig leaves together to cover their unholiness.

"Fruit", of course, is meant to be eaten.

So leaves result in an outward appearance of holiness, kinda like the priest's robes covering their nakedness in OT times. It is important that we keep these robes with us and wash them clean.

But to be holy underneath the robe is something totally different. The "fruit" maintains inward holiness, a requirement to draw near the throne in the New Creation.

Of course this is my opinion

That is an interesting take that leaves are not to be eaten, but rather worn . . . However, there are certainly leaves that do get eaten and we eat many (although perhaps not tree leaves per se). However, fruit is definitely for eating, and is much tastier and usually more nourishing I would think.

Timotheist · 07-29-2022, 07:46 PM

The "leaves" being linked to "clothing" makes sense when reading about the naked guest who was thrown into outer darkness. He has eternal life, but not enough holiness to enter the Son's kingdom (more specifically, the wedding banquet).

I suggest he will be saved, but will need the leaves to cover his nakedness in the New Creation, as one of the "Nations".

Sons to Glory! · 07-30-2022, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

The "leaves" being linked to "clothing" makes sense when reading about the naked guest who was thrown into outer darkness. He has eternal life, but not enough holiness to enter the Son's kingdom (more specifically, the wedding banquet).

I suggest he will be saved, but will need the leaves to cover his nakedness in the New Creation, as one of the "Nations".

In the garden, A & E clothed themselves with leaves, but "God made garments of skins for Adam and his wife and clothed them." What I have heard most often was that the manmade covering of leaves was not adequate and that God killed (probably) an animal to provide covering skins, which was a foreshadow of Christ. So why would He now provide leaves as a covering for the nations?

Raptor · 07-30-2022, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

I think the unfaithful servant was not born again. I think this person was presented with a gift but did nothing with it.

Then the parable would indicate that salvation is of works, not faith. It would mean that the first two servants did works and were accepted by the Lord, the unfaithful one (not born again) did not and was rejected.

That is not scriptural, and has no basis in the word of God.

Sons to Glory! · 07-30-2022, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Then the parable would indicate that salvation is of works, not faith. The first two servants did works and were accepted by the Lord, the unfaithful one did not and was rejected.

That is not scriptural, and has no basis in the word of God.

Good observation - very simple!

Timotheist · 07-30-2022, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

In the garden, A & E clothed themselves with leaves, but "God made garments of skins for Adam and his wife and clothed them." What I have heard most often was that the manmade covering of leaves was not adequate and that God killed (probably) an animal to provide covering skins, which was a foreshadow of Christ. So why would He now provide leaves as a covering for the nations?

Aaaah, but these leaves are coming from the throne. They will replace the inadequate coverings provided to A&E.

But the point about the skins being a foreshadow of Christ is spot on.

Also, there is the fact that certain leaves do have healing properties, and the emphasis in 22 is on healing.

Of course I may have this all wrong, but it is the best contrast between leaves and fruit that I could come up with!

Zezima · 07-30-2022, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Then the parable would indicate that salvation is of works, not faith. It would mean that the first two servants did works and were accepted by the Lord, the unfaithful one (not born again) did not and was rejected.

That is not scriptural, and has no basis in the word of God.

Or the unfaithful one was presented with the gospel, but did not accept it. They were presented with salvation but logged it away.

The whole point of this line of discussion is that, the idea of 1000 year punishment is built upon an extremely shaky foundation. Why doesn’t Jesus or anyone else come out and just say it? They talk about how elders should act in a church, surely they would articulate to all believers that there’s 1,000 years of punishment.

Why would Jesus give us John 3:16, but leave out that those who are saved may face punishment?

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life, and if he would gain X amount of faith during his life to avoid 1000 years of punishment”

Oh wait, the verse doesn’t say that, and nowhere does the Bible explicitly say that.

Sons to Glory! · 07-31-2022, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Aaaah, but these leaves are coming from the throne. They will replace the inadequate coverings provided to A&E.

Agreed! There certainly is something special about these leaves . . . being for the healing of the nations. And since Revelation is so much about signs and symbols, it's hard to say with certainty exactly what these laves are - a physical tree as we know it or something else beyond marvelous!

Sons to Glory! · 07-31-2022, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life, and if he would gain X amount of faith during his life to avoid 1000 years of punishment” Oh wait, the verse doesn’t say that, and nowhere does the Bible explicitly say that.

I think that last statement is essentially true. However, hopefully we can agree that there are plenty of places in the word showing a reward for believers through obeying Him and doing His will/works. The downside is that we won't gain the reward.

I just read a verse this morning saying, "that we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming." (1 John 2:28) The outright punishment part is much lighter in the word (if there at all), and nowhere can I see it specifically saying there could be 1000 years of outright punishments.

Zezima · 07-31-2022, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I think that last statement is essentially true. However, hopefully we can agree that there are plenty of places in the word showing a reward for believers through obeying Him and doing His will/works. The downside is that we won't gain the reward.

I agree, but this thread is about that 1000 year teaching in The Recovery. The parables were pointed to as proof of the doctrine which led into a debate of their meaning.

Raptor · 08-01-2022, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

The kingdom of Heaven is not the Kingdom of God.

Yes it is, the KoH is always part of the KoG, but the KoG does not always refer to the KoH. That is why they are used synonymously in some contexts yet they are crucially different and distinct in others. If you are in the Kingdom of the Heavens you are also unequivocally in the Kingdom of God. But not everybody in the Kingdom of God is in the Kingdom of the Heavens.

It is similar to California (KoH) and United States (KoG). If you are in California you are definitely in the United States. But if you are in the United States you are not necessarily in California. So it´s correct to say when you fly back to your home in CA from Japan, "great, I´m back in California" OR equally correct, "great, I´m back in the US". But if you land anywhere else in US, you cannot say you are back in CA, only that you are back in the US.

Sons to Glory! · 08-01-2022, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

I agree, but this thread is about that 1000 year teaching in The Recovery. The parables were pointed to as proof of the doctrine which led into a debate of their meaning.

And without looking at all the myriad of previous postings on the topic, is it safe to say that no one finds any ground for the 1,000 years of outer darkness punishment as promoted by the LC? (other than, of course, saying that there is the possibility of at least some unpleasantness if a believer is found lacking of even the basics)

Sons to Glory! · 08-01-2022, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Yes it is, the KoH is always part of the KoG, but the KoG does not always refer to the KoH. That is why they are used synonymously in some contexts yet they are crucially different and distinct in others. If you are in the Kingdom of the Heavens you are also unequivocally in the Kingdom of God. But not everybody in the Kingdom of God is in the Kingdom of the Heavens.

It is similar to California (KoH) and United States (KoG). If you are in California you are definitely in the United States. But if you are in the United States you are not necessarily in California. So it´s correct to say when you fly back to your home in CA from Japan, "great, I´m back in California" OR equally correct, "great, I´m back in the US". But if you land anywhere else in US, you cannot say you are back in CA, only that you are back in the US.

I'd not heard it explained that way before, Mr. Raptor and it makes a lot of sense. I've heard this topic brought up many times before, and in my readings of scripture mentions of KoG and KoH, and the final conclusion that caries the most weight has always been the same - that there's little difference. (and even if there is, I think it has to be a minor point . . .)

Raptor · 08-01-2022, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And without looking at all the myriad of previous postings on the topic, is it safe to say that no one finds any ground for the 1,000 years of outer darkness punishment as promoted by the LC? (other than, of course, saying that there is the possibility of at least some unpleasantness if a believer is found lacking of even the basics)

I think there is very logical ground just looking at a few verses to say that if the reward is participating in the millenial kingdom, then missing the reward equals missing the kingdom; and yes, it is for 1,000 years. Totally logical. Does that mean that some are going to be weeping and gnashing their teeth, suffering unbearable punishment every single day, 24/7 for 1,000 years? I don´t think so.

Sons to Glory! · 08-01-2022, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

I think there is very logical ground just looking at a few verses to say that if the reward is participating in the millenial kingdom, then missing the reward equals missing the kingdom; and yes, it is for 1,000 years. Totally logical. Does that mean that some are going to be weeping and gnashing their teeth, suffering unbearable punishment every single day, 24/7 for 1,000 years? I don´t think so.

Or is it missing out on the ruling and reigning with Him?

Timotheist · 08-01-2022, 02:45 PM

"For we [the church members] must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad."

Salvation (eternal life) is given based on faith, not works.

Nonetheless, it is also clear that we will be judged based upon our deeds.

So many of the American denominations stress the first point to a fault, and then belittle any talk of the second. The end result for many is that they expect to be exempt from judgement. "That's not for me, that's for the unbelievers."

Dangerous stuff... promotes a condition of lukewarmness, putting the congregations at risk.

Raptor · 08-01-2022, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Or is it missing out on the ruling and reigning with Him?

One of the outstanding points related to this subject is the overwhelming absoluteness indicated by many of the verses and parables. For example, Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone saying to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father in the heavens. Many will say to Me in that the day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare unto them, ‘I never knew you; depart you from Me,’ those working lawlessness.

"Will not enter" is, well, not entering, quite absolute. So possibly, the way to understand it is applying the distinction between Kingdom of the Heavens and Kingdom of God explained earlier. Those believers that did works that were not approved by the Lord would still be in the KoG, but not permitted to enter the KoH. So they would miss the entire realm of the KoH, not just the ruling and reigning. Yet they are saved and in the KoG. (They are in US, but not in CA

).

(of course, there will always be those that try to use the back door and explain it away saying, "oh, those are not believers").

Sons to Glory! · 08-02-2022, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

One of the outstanding points related to this subject is the overwhelming absoluteness indicated by many of the verses and parables. For example, Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone saying to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father in the heavens. Many will say to Me in that the day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare unto them, ‘I never knew you; depart you from Me,’ those working lawlessness.

"Will not enter" is, well, not entering, quite absolute. So possibly, the way to understand it is applying the distinction between Kingdom of the Heavens and Kingdom of God explained earlier. Those believers that did works that were not approved by the Lord would still be in the KoG, but not permitted to enter the KoH. So they would miss the entire realm of the KoH, not just the ruling and reigning. Yet they are saved and in the KoG. (They are in US, but not in CA

).

(of course, there will always be those that try to use the back door and explain it away saying, "oh, those are not believers").

Yes, those are sobering verses for believers (I too firmly can't see those verses referring to unbelievers, for good reason . . .)!

Personally, as I've alluded to on here a number of times, there is often fear in me when I read such verses. And fear of the Lord and His judgements (Bema for believers) is presented as a (generally, with possible exception below) healthy thing in scripture. However, my word studies of both OT and NT shows that the overwhelming preponderance toward us - especially believers in the NT - is that of love. To put it in a secular form, the best coach loves his players and wants the very best for them . . . he wants them to win (which is a win for all concerned)! However, he also isn't shy about letting them know the results of messing-up and not winning, but the main motivation is his care, concern and desire for them to reach their best.

To me, the servants in Matthew 25 illustrate this well. The Master was delighted when the two faithful servants did well! He told them that they had been faithful in a FEW THINGS (think "My yoke is easy and My burden is light"), and now they may receive the reward.

When it came to the unfaithful servant, this servant dwelt in the realm of fear, knew his master was a hard man, and hid (reminiscent what Adam & Eve did) his Master's portion.

And even in this parable, it's 2 to 1, that is, two faithful servants to one unfaithful, which shows me the emphasis is on the positive (love)!

Timotheist · 08-02-2022, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, those are sobering verses for believers (I too firmly can't see those verses referring to unbelievers, for good reason . . .)!

And even in this parable, it's 2 to 1, that is, two faithful servants to one unfaithful, which shows me the emphasis is on the positive (love)!

I do like those odds, but the tag line at the end of the "naked guest" parable is this:

"Many are called, but few are chosen."

So the unclothed guest would represent a nominal Christian who has no protective "clothing", of which there are "many". The chosen are the "few".

So what do these words "called" and "chosen" mean?

1) All of Israel were "called" out of Egypt.
2) But only the tribe of Levi was "chosen".
3) And out of Levi, only the sons of Zadok were "faithful" (see Ezekiel)

so the odds of being chosen are 1 in 13. That is very sobering. According to the OT, we need only 1 priest over 12 subjects.

And the odds of being "called, chosen, and faithful" (those who return with Christ) are even smaller.

Sobering.

Sons to Glory! · 08-02-2022, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

And the odds of being "called, chosen, and faithful" (those who return with Christ) are even smaller.

Sobering.

If we could only get those odds nailed down, I think I'd feel much better about it all!

Zezima · 08-02-2022, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

For example, Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone saying to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father in the heavens. Many will say to Me in that the day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare unto them, ‘I never knew you; depart you from Me,’ those working lawlessness.

(of course, there will always be those that try to use the back door and explain it away saying, "oh, those are not believers").

They aren’t believers from my pov, no back door required. Just need to be able to read.

Jesus here is saying that when he comes again “on that day” there will be people that point be to their works “Lord Lord we prophesied in your name! We cast out demons in your name!! We performed miracles!” thinking those works have earned them a spot in the kingdom.

It’s those who do the will of the father that enter into the kingdom of heaven. What’s the will? John 6, Jesus tells us that it’s to believe in the one He has sent

“When I return people are going to claim their performance has earned them a spot in the kingdom. However, only those who believe in me will enter. Works don’t get you in, I do.”

Raptor · 08-02-2022, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

However, my word studies of both OT and NT shows that the overwhelming preponderance toward us - especially believers in the NT - is that of love. To put it in a secular form, the best coach loves his players and wants the very best for them . . . he wants them to win (which is a win for all concerned)! However, he also isn't shy about letting them know the results of messing-up and not winning, but the main motivation is his care, concern and desire for them to reach their best.

Paul´s prayer in Ephesians 3 for us to know the knowledge surpassing love of Christ has shown me that I do not know His love enough. But I think the judgment seat of Christ w¡ll not be a matter of love, but of His righteousness. Yet during the time we are alive running this race, our High Priest, His love and mercy are beckoning us on. Now is the time to come forward to the throne of grace!

Naomi encouraged Ruth to stay at the feet of Boaz on his threshing floor during the night so he would save her, redeem her and marry her. She told her to get ready by washing, putting on a new dress and perfume. The result was a wedding that brought in the king and the kindom. She was a victorious seeker, we need to do the same. During the dark night of this age, we need to fall in love with our Boaz, our kingsman redeemer, Christ, and live at His feet on His threshing floor. There He threshes us out as wheat, removing all the chaff, as we wisely are sanctified, preparing the wedding garment, and becoming a sweet aroma to God. If we have made ourselves ready we will marry the Lamb and we will join Him as King in His Kingdom.

(the book of Ruth is incredible: a clear calling to be in love with our Savior and become victorious, chosen and faithful):

Sons to Glory! · 08-02-2022, 01:50 PM

This may be a little off topic, but here goes . . . why is it that most Christians see little to nothing regarding believers' accountability for their works after being reborn? At least that's my perception, as one's I'm familiar with (radio, TV preachers, many Christian's I meet, etc.) seem to be quite binary. That is, either one is saved (and thereby gets all rewards) or not. There rarely appears to be much in they way of obeying His speaking and doing His will after being saved, and being held accountable for that. Am I accurate in that perception?

Of course I hear preachers saying, "We must love God/others and obey and give and don't be proud, be sincere, don't sin, etc.," but again next to nothing about any future accountability for things done in this body, perhaps other than it doesn't please God or there may be consequences in this life.

Why is that?

Once I saw the matter of accountability for His children in the word, now I see the principle everywhere in the bible . . .

Sons to Glory! · 08-02-2022, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Paul´s prayer in Ephesians 3 for us to know the knowledge surpassing love of Christ has shown me that I do not know His love enough. But I think the judgment seat of Christ w¡ll not be a matter of love, but of His righteousness. Yet during the time we are alive running this race, our High Priest, His love and mercy are beckoning us on. Now is the time to come forward to the throne of grace!

It may be in the way one views the word "bema". It has a couple meanings. One refers to a legal judgement seat, and the other to the officiating seat at the Olympic games. The original meaning for the Greeks was one of officiating at the games, and then evidently the Romans began using the word more toward legal judgements. Since Paul talks in a few places about game related activities as it relates to us, I'm inclined to think it's more about officiating the rewards (and accordingly, any needed disqualifications).

You may be right about it being more toward righteousness, however, He's been teaching me to not separate His love from anything He does. So while His judgements and discipline toward us are surely righteous, true and the best, they are all done in His great love for us and our ultimate good as His children.

SEE LINK:Bible.org article on rewards & the meaning of bema judgement

Timotheist · 08-02-2022, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

This may be a little off topic, but here goes . . . why is it that most Christians see little to nothing regarding believers' accountability for their works after being reborn? At least that's my perception, as one's I'm familiar with (radio, TV preachers, many Christian's I meet, etc.) seem to be quite binary. That is, either one is saved (and thereby gets all rewards) or not. There rarely appears to be much in they way of obeying His speaking and doing His will after being saved, and being held accountable for that. Am I accurate in that perception?

Of course I hear preachers saying, "We must love God/others and obey and give and don't be proud, be sincere, don't sin, etc.," but again next to nothing about any future accountability for things done in this body, perhaps other than it doesn't please God or there may be consequences in this life.

Why is that?

Once I saw the matter of accountability for His children in the word, now I see the principle everywhere in the bible . . .

That is the biggie question, isn't it? And I think your observations about most Christians are correct, as they are the same as mine

If I were to boil it down to one root cause, it is that most churches and their preachers teach that once you die, you go to heaven to be with Jesus forever.

This much over-simplified description of the afterlife leads to an emphasis on being saved by faith and not by works, and the related over-emphasis on the associated "assurance of salvation" doctrine.

Because "judgement" does not make sense in a straight-to-heaven-or-hell, binary, gospel

Raptor · 08-02-2022, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

why is it that most Christians see little to nothing regarding believers' accountability for their works after being reborn?

The leaven of heaven. (like Timotheist has saidst.)

But here is an exception....The Kingdom, Power, & Glory - The Overcomer´s Handbook. Chuck & Nancy Missler 2012

https://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Power.../dp/B008XP65JO

Sons to Glory! · 08-02-2022, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

The leaven of heaven. (like Timotheist has saidst.)

But here is an exception....The Kingdom, Power, & Glory - The Overcomer´s Handbook. Chuck & Nancy Missler 2012

https://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Power.../dp/B008XP65JO

Yes - read that book when it came out! It was one of the few things on the subject of accountability that could be found in recent print. I got excited as I thought some others would pick up on it, but alas . . . however, He has revealed it to us, and I count it as a good thing! (I need the motivation that comes from both aspect of the goal - knowing the reward for reaching it and the loss of not!)

Did you read that link to the Bible.org article on rewards & bema?

Timotheist · 08-02-2022, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

The leaven of heaven. (like Timotheist has saidst.)

But here is an exception....The Kingdom, Power, & Glory - The Overcomer´s Handbook. Chuck & Nancy Missler 2012

https://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Power.../dp/B008XP65JO

That’s a great saying, which I’ve never heard before!

Is that a Raptor original?

At the risk of giving the LR credit, I do appreciate that I was exposed to this leaven at such a young age

Raptor · 08-03-2022, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Did you read that link to the Bible.org article on rewards & bema?

Yeah.

Some thoughts....

it over emphasizes the application and scope of the athletic games view - The athletic games bema is a metaphor and we have to be careful how much weight and scope you give the metaphor when you are defining the real thing
seems to ignore some crucial verses and words and downplay other verses/words - these other ones are very important and useful to get a more accurate and complete picture
consequences of sin and disobedience are relagated to "this life" only - no view of the coming age. Just this life and then eternal heaven
no view of consequences during the millennium - they conclude, either: rewards then joy in heaven OR loss of rewards, some momentary shame, joy in heaven
no mention at all concerning the possibility of missing the marriage feast/being part of the Bride or not ruling and reigning with Christ, or not inheriting the kingdom
it directly and explicitly contradicts verses about this subject concerning many things, like severe discipline

Sons to Glory! · 08-04-2022, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor

Yeah.

Some thoughts....

it over emphasizes the application and scope of the athletic games view - The athletic games bema is a metaphor and we have to be careful how much weight and scope you give the metaphor when you are defining the real thing
seems to ignore some crucial verses and words and downplay other verses/words - these other ones are very important and useful to get a more accurate and complete picture
consequences of sin and disobedience are relagated to "this life" only - no view of the coming age. Just this life and then eternal heaven
no view of consequences during the millennium - they conclude, either: rewards then joy in heaven OR loss of rewards, some momentary shame, joy in heaven
no mention at all concerning the possibility of missing the marriage feast/being part of the Bride or not ruling and reigning with Christ, or not inheriting the kingdom
it directly and explicitly contradicts verses about this subject concerning many things, like severe discipline

Sure . . . and that is the big question, that is, where on the spectrum of total grace/severe punishment that we see things. Over the years I sincerely believe what the Lord has been showing me is the potential of the bema will be far less severe than what the LC advocates. But, I still see there will be negative consequences for not being FAITHFUL in a FEW THINGS (which, if you haven't picked up, is something very strong the Lord has shown me, and I was compelled to write a 6 page paper on this - want a copy?). I know there will be suffering by some who are not faithful to obey in those few things - the degree of that possible suffering is something that is not 100% clear in the word (as are many things), in other words I don't think we can know for sure (and everyone will be evaluated on their own things).

But if He has taught me anything, it is that is safest to err on the side of His love for us. That doesn't mean that believers won't suffer, as even that suffering will be in love to fully develop us into glorified sons of our Father. Again, His motive is always love toward us as children.

So I think our focus has to be on love, since that's what is presented in the bible. As I mentioned before, I did a word study to compare "positive" words in the NT with "negative." It was about a 10 to 1 ratio in the word. (that's a general statement, but true I think. It would be interesting how many times "fear of the Lord" - or similar - is used contrasted with words pertaining to "love" in the NT, but I suspect the ratio would still be very high for "love." BTW - I also suspect "fear not" pops up much more than "fear.")

Raptor · 08-04-2022, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

But if He has taught me anything, it is that is safest to err on the side of His love for us. That doesn't mean that believers won't suffer, as even that suffering will be in love to fully develop us into glorified sons of our Father. Again, His motive is always love toward us as children.

There is no doubt concerning His love. (God so loved the world that He gave His Son. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us.) But what I´m seeing is that His Kingdom is a matter of righteousness. God wants to have His kingdom on earth and share His authority and administration with His sons to rule on the earth. It will be a realm of justice, uprightness, righteousness, peace and joy. He will lead justice to victory.

After being saved, our righteousness through Christ expressed in good works, acts, fruit, etc. honors the King and prepares us to be qualified to enter. Yes He loves us along the way, but the requirement to enter is righteousness.

seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness
unless your righteousness surpass... you shall never enter into the kingdom of the heavens
blessed are those having been persecuted on account of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens
His wife has made herself ready. And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints.
friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?
not every one who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who does the will of My Father who is in the heavens.
so that you might walk in a manner worthy of God, who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.
be diligent to make your calling and election sure. For practicing these things, never at any time shall you stumble. For in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you.
if we endure, we will also reign with Him
joint-heirs of Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him

Nell · 08-04-2022, 08:18 PM

So let’s do something new on this topic. Each of you frequent flyers, or anyone else, please write a summation of what has been “decided” as a result of the discussion. Where are we regarding 1000 Years Discipline? Is it going to happen? How? Is it definitive Scripturally? Where? Summarize in 350 words or less.

Has anyone changed your original belief/interpretation?

The OP was a Y/N question by a guest, Malaysian Observer, who only posted once that I can find.

Quote:

Is there any discussions, videos, or topics that will debunk the 1000 years discipline the in millennial kingdom?

184 posts later…is it debunked? Y/N? Is “it” even well defined?

Not trying to end the discussion, just curious. Sometimes we go around in circles and don’t make much progress.

Nell

Timotheist · 08-05-2022, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

So let’s do something new on this topic. Each of you frequent flyers, or anyone else, please write a summation of what has been “decided” as a result of the discussion. Where are we regarding 1000 Years Discipline? Is it going to happen? How? Is it definitive Scripturally? Where? Summarize in 350 words or less.

Has anyone changed your original belief/interpretation?

The OP was a Y/N question by a guest, Malaysian Observer, who only posted once that I can find.

184 posts later…is it debunked? Y/N? Is “it” even well defined?

Not trying to end the discussion, just curious. Sometimes we go around in circles and don’t make much progress.

Nell

In short, my position has not changed as a result of this discussion, as I am a stubborn man.

I think the general consensus among most of the commenters is that there will be disciplinary punishments handed out to some believers at the onset of the 1000 year, transitional, kingdom, but we also generally accepted the notion that the imprisonment would not be for the full 1000 years for everyone who is judged. I agree that the original question, as stated, is not held up by scripture. What is scriptural is the concept that the punishment fits the crime:

"you will not be released until you have paid the last cent" (perhaps paraphrased)

This warning must be meant for believers, as those judged as unbelievers (more precisely, not in the BOL) will never be released.

I consider 1000 years as a "maximum sentence" kind of thing, reserved for the most stubborn of us to accept sanctification. I, for one, do not think I would be held that long, because my stubbornness has its limits

I sometimes ponder why some of humanity would join Satan for the final battle at the end of that time. You would have to be pretty stubborn to do that.

Nell · 08-05-2022, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

In short, my position has not changed as a result of this discussion, as I am a stubborn man.

I think the general consensus among most of the commenters is that there will be disciplinary punishments handed out to some believers at the onset of the 1000 year, transitional, kingdom, but we also generally accepted the notion that the imprisonment would not be for the full 1000 years for everyone who is judged. I agree that the original question, as stated, is not held up by scripture. What is scriptural is the concept that the punishment fits the crime:

"you will not be released until you have paid the last cent" (perhaps paraphrased)

This warning must be meant for believers, as those judged as unbelievers (more precisely, not in the BOL) will never be released.

I consider 1000 years as a "maximum sentence" kind of thing, reserved for the most stubborn of us to accept sanctification. I, for one, do not think I would be held that long, because my stubbornness has its limits

I sometimes ponder why some of humanity would join Satan for the final battle at the end of that time. You would have to be pretty stubborn to do that.

Thanks T--excellent summary.

As for the "why", I'll reference my "go to" verse, 2 Timothy 2:10-13
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

IMHO it goes far, far, beyond stubborn. Your "stubborn" pales in comparison...if that helps

. Humanity makes a choice to join Satan...though they, being delusional, don't understand their choice. People have heard the gospel, as Paul tells us, in Romans 1:20 (no excuses) and choose their sin and choose to remain there. God gives them what they chose, hence "be careful what you ask for".

Another question: Is this God-given "strong delusion" underway now? Hummmmmm.....

Thanks again--
Nell

Zezima · 08-05-2022, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Where are we regarding 1000 Years Discipline? Is it going to happen? How? Is it definitive Scripturally? Where? Summarize in 350 words or less.

Has anyone changed your original belief/interpretation?

My stance toward this doctrine has changed, before I was unsure but now I’m sure. It’s a false doctrine that isn’t supported scripturally. It requires (like many recovery doctrines) a eisegesis interpretation of the word paired with mental gymnastics, that produces a Christian walk of fear rather than love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

There is no scripture that says if you don’t “gain X amount of Christ you will be cast into the outer darkness for 1000 years where you will be separated from Christ to be transformed more because your initial salvation wasn’t enough.”

There is scripture that says, We are saved by grace through faith, not by our own works, but by the gift of God. The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin past, present, future. That everyone who believes in Jesus has eternal life.

Any doctrine that tells you that you need to do something to earn a salvation isn’t a doctrine found in the New Testament, and negates the person & work of our savior Jesus Christ.

This discussion was eye opening, and freed me from years of fear & anxiety that this Lords Recovery produced in me (any many others).

Raptor · 08-05-2022, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

So let’s do something new on this topic. Each of you frequent flyers, or anyone else, please write a summation of what has been “decided” as a result of the discussion. Where are we regarding 1000 Years Discipline? Is it going to happen? How? Is it definitive Scripturally? Where? Summarize in 350 words or less.

You gotta do eveyrthing possible to live in California, not just anywhere in the US.

Timotheist · 08-05-2022, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Any doctrine that tells you that you need to do something to earn a salvation isn’t a doctrine found in the New Testament, and negates the person & work of our savior Jesus Christ.

"Salvation" and "Discipline" are two entirely different concepts, which is the point some of us have been trying to make to counter your statement.

To be disciplined for (up to) 1000 years is NOT about salvation. To be thrown into the LOF is the ultimate judgement, and I feel confident that I will not get the second death penalty due to my actions.

We are saved by grace, but judged by our deeds. If our deeds are found insufficient at the time of the second coming, we will be judged by the Son.

But the life/death decision is not made until after the 1000 years, where we will be judged by the Father. If our deeds are found insufficient at that judgement, we will retain eternal life, but will not be ruling and reigning in the New Jerusalem. Rather we will be living as the Nations, content with the water of life and the leaves of the tree to sustain us forever.

Not every teaching of the LC is about exerting power over the congregation. There is some truth in there that is not generally embraced by those who preach nothing but the "feel good" gospel.

What I have seen by many who have left the LC is that they ditch these teachings and revert to the heaven/hell, binary, salvation model, where belief is the only thing that matters.

Zezima · 08-05-2022, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

What I have seen by many who have left the LC is that they ditch these teachings and revert to the heaven/hell, binary, salvation model, where belief is the only thing that matters.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. - John 3:16

Quote:

But the life/death decision is not made until after the 1000 years, where we will be judged by the Father. If our deeds are found insufficient at that judgement, we will retain eternal life, but will not be ruling and reigning in the New Jerusalem. Rather we will be living as the Nations, content with the water of life and the leaves of the tree to sustain us forever.

This is what I mean by eisegesis, there are no verses that explicitly say such thing. To arrive at this conclusion you have to cast the idea onto the text, and form it to fit the doctrine rather than pull the doctrine from the text.

If there’s a verse that explicitly says what’s quoted above…Or a verse that says explicitly believers who are born again will be cast into outer darkness for 1,000 years because they didn’t have enough works or christ..I’m happy to adjust my opinion.

Raptor · 08-05-2022, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

This is what I mean by eisegesis, there are no verses that explicitly say such thing. To arrive at this conclusion you have to cast the idea onto the text, and form it to fit the doctrine rather than pull the doctrine from the text. If there’s a verse that explicitly says what’s quoted above…Or a verse that says explicitly believers who are born again will be cast into outer darkness for 1,000 years because they didn’t have enough works or christ..I’m happy to adjust my opinion.

Welcome to this thread. Since you are a first time poster in this thread I do recommend you read the posts to get an understanding.

Sons to Glory! · 08-07-2022, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

In short, my position has not changed as a result of this discussion, as I am a stubborn man.

I think the general consensus among most of the commenters is that there will be disciplinary punishments handed out to some believers at the onset of the 1000 year, transitional, kingdom, but we also generally accepted the notion that the imprisonment would not be for the full 1000 years for everyone who is judged. I agree that the original question, as stated, is not held up by scripture. What is scriptural is the concept that the punishment fits the crime:

"you will not be released until you have paid the last cent" (perhaps paraphrased)

This warning must be meant for believers, as those judged as unbelievers (more precisely, not in the BOL) will never be released.

I consider 1000 years as a "maximum sentence" kind of thing, reserved for the most stubborn of us to accept sanctification. I, for one, do not think I would be held that long, because my stubbornness has its limits

I sometimes ponder why some of humanity would join Satan for the final battle at the end of that time. You would have to be pretty stubborn to do that.

I agree with this summation! Scripture gives different degrees of rewards/adjustment/angst/punishment, and I think that is simply because each believer's works (whether they are done according to God's will or not) will be reviewed, and some works will not pass the test of fire. That is, there is no "one size fits all," because all of God's children are different with differing behaviors and resulting actions/works.

And, as was said, I too believe the 1,000 years of outer darkness is debunked and this is most likely not required for everyone who's works don't survive the test. However, I consider even the loss of the enjoyment of the wedding feast to be huge - and who knows how long that will go on!?

To me the bottom-line is what a brother told me a few years ago, "We may not know exactly what the Lord has in store for us, but the main point is simply this: BE READY!" So I take the stance that even though it's hard to determine from scripture all the precise details and timing, I know He loves me as His child and He will hold me accountable for being faithful in at least a few things . . . Even just being faithful in a few things shows some level of maturity and I believe it will be the more mature ones that will enjoy the wedding feast and then will rule and reign with Him in the kingdom.

Those believers who are foolish and don't buy the oil or hide their God-given talent will be ashamed before Him at His coming, and will suffer the consequences, righteously commensurate with how they handled the gift of grace they were given. I say righteously, because no one will be able to say it was not exactly as they deserve or need. And even this will be fully in His love, as I believe this discipline will ultimately be seen to help develop and mature that believer in Christ gloriously.

(and regarding your last statement about why some would still follow Satan after all of this, I too ponder that! All I can figure is they are simply deceived, and God has given them over to that deception. Maybe Satan seduces them with a, "Just one final push and we can beat God, and then you'll have all you'd ever want" kind of delusion.)

ACuriousFellow · 07-25-2023, 10:45 PM

I have to say that this was both a fascinating and mind-numbing read, haha! You would never see something like this in The Lord's Recovery. Too much "death" and "mind" and "self" coming from everyone on this thread.

I have to say, it was quite an exercise just to read it. I can only imagine what it was like for the athletes running this race, haha!

Raptor · 07-30-2023, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And, as was said, I too believe the 1,000 years of outer darkness is debunked

I don´t think it has been "debunked", not at all. The Bible does not explain enough details to conclude it has been debunked. What it does say clearly and with details is that certain believers will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Here it is referring to the Kindgom as the prize, it is the awarded inheritance. The reward is the Kingdom, and the Kingdom is for 1,000 years. In other words, those believers that do not inherit the Kingdom will be outside of the realm of joy, authority, and the presence of the Lord as the prize.

For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Ephesians 5:5.

Ohio · 07-30-2023, 04:56 AM

Quote:

But among you, as is proper among the saints, there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk, or crude joking, which are out of character, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Ephesians 5.3-5)

We are all disqualified by these verses.

UntoHim · 07-31-2023, 11:13 AM

A few questions for my esteemed brother Raptor.
(***These inquiries are made in good faith, and not meant to be merely rhetorical, or meant to be "gottcha" type questions. They are, however, questions that those who subscribe to the kind of interpretations you have supported in this thread need to answer with proofs from Scripture, especially the writings of the authors of the New Testament epistles.)

*Where, in the New Testament epistles, or in the earliest of Christian writings, did the scripture writing apostles (or early authors) make any clear and concise difference between "The Kingdom of God" and "The Kingdom of Heaven"? And if they did, where did they make any clear and concise statements/teachings that would indicate that the Kingdom of Heaven will, at least in part, be a time of punishment/discipline for genuine believers who did not live up to some (undefined as of yet) standard of behavior?

*Where, in the New Testament epistles, or in the earliest Christian writings, were the terms "weeping and gnashing of teeth" applied to genuine believers as a descriptor of their disposition before God in the coming Kingdom, ostensibly for not living up to some (undefined as of yet) standard of behavior?

*Apart from Watchman Nee, Witness Lee and the Brethren teachers who heavily influenced them, could you please cite a number of renown, reputable teachers, scholars, authors or apologists who have clearly and concisely annunciated the teachings that are being discussed here in this thread.

Many thanks to Raptor and all those who have argued in good faith on this thread. I think we can all agree that the subject of rewards and discipline in the age to come is extremely important for us to discus here on this forum.
-

ACuriousFellow · 07-31-2023, 05:15 PM

Ooh. These are fascinating questions. I believe I'll focus on the ones in the first two bullet points. Thank you, UntoHim.
-

Ohio · 07-31-2023, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

*Apart from Watchman Nee, Witness Lee and the Brethren teachers who heavily influenced them, could you please cite a number of renown, reputable teachers, scholars, authors or apologists who have clearly and concisely annunciated the teachings that are being discussed here in this thread.

I can answer that.

The best author and scholar is Pastor Robert Govett. There are a few of his Public Domain e-books in the list of "selected writings." Many consider him to be the eschatological pioneer and genius of the church age post Apostle Paul. He gathers scriptural insights from an incredible number of other writers.

His pastoral successor was David M. Panton. I just read his book Rapture. It seems that no contemporary scholar can compare with his depth of understanding on this subject.

George H. Lang is another contemporary of Panton author who has also written extensively on prophecy, Daniel, Revelation, etc.

Unfortunately most of their books and writings became lost over time because they were not popular and widely accepted. Brother Schoettle (not sure if he is still alive) began Schoettle Publishing Co after the Lord put it on his heart to make these Kingdom books available to the church.

20 years ago I talked to him about Lang's book, The Churches of God. During the events recorded by John Ingalls in Speaking The Truth In Love, it was this book which exposed WL's lies and provided much needed weapons of truth. He was on his way to England to obtain copyrights to reprint from the heirs of the above authors.

Both Nee and Lee plagiarized these authors. None of these authors were associated with Darby. B.W. Newton, who was so horribly censured by Darby in the first Brethren Division, was far advanced in his prophetic teachings. Actually the Brethren schism began when Newton refused to succumb to Darby's ideas on end time prophecy.

tentmaker · 08-01-2023, 10:41 AM

Ohio, thanks for sharing your knowledge of!! Much appreciated!! Over the decades I’ve come to realize that no man can share/ give incite on every item in the Bible without help and incite from a large number of fellow warriors who came before him, regardless of the time period. Then take and copyright it as his own.

05-13-2022, 04:10 AM	#3
Timotheist Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 424	Re: 1000 Years Discipline Whether or not W Lee was correct or not in his assertions about the Outer Darkness, I have to accept that there will be rewards and punishments at the first judgement. Otherwise, why have a judgement at all? So if posters want to pick on Lee on this topic, then I expect that “rewards and punishments” of the believers be defined by these same posters. “No punishment” is not an answer.

05-14-2022, 09:40 AM	#7
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,824	Re: 1000 Years Discipline To my friend Zezima, there is not much of a serious controversy regarding reward and punishment for believers among orthodox biblical teachers, scholars and apologists. I believe if one is to take the plain reading of the actual teachings of the original, scripture writing apostles, especially Paul, everything points to the Millennial Kingdom being a time of reward for some, and punishment, or discipline as it were, for others. I think many Christian teachers, and for our purposes here, especially Nee and Lee, were very wrong about the reasons for the rewards, and even more wrong about the reasons for the discipline. Maybe we can sort some of this out on this thread. To everyone else....If I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times... Seriously, though, I think sometimes we concentrate too much on the number one thousand, and the mystery surrounding the when, where and how of all the punishments and rewards, all at the cost of missing the "forest" of what the Lord is asking of us in the here and now, for the "trees" of all the intrigue and mystery of who gets what punishment and who gets what reward, and the when and the how. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8,9 ESV For by χάρις (charis; grace good will, loving-kindness, favor of the merciful kindness by which God ) you have been σῴζω *(sōzō; saved; keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction)* ~ Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. Revelation 22:12 NLT Bringing my μισθός *(misthos; reward; wages earned)* with me to repay all people according to their *ἔργον (ergon; an act, a deed)* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing. 2nd Timothy 4:8 ESV The crown of righteousness *στέφανος stephanos δικαιοσύνη dikaiosynē; (Crown of Righteousness)* which the Lord, the righteous judge, will ἀποδίδωμι (apodidōmi; to requite, recompense in a good or a bad sense) to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his ἐπιφάνεια (epiphaneia; a manifestation, the advent of Christ; past or future appearing, brightness.) ~ For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. 2 Corinthians 5:10 ESV So that each one may κομίζω (komizō; to get back, receive back) what is due for what he has (διά dia ὁ ho σῶμα sōma deeds in the body) whether ἀγαθός (agathos; good, excellent, distinguished, upright, honorable) εἴτε eite (or) κακός (kakos; bad, wrong, wicked, injurious, pernicious, destructive) I think I'll keep my comments brief, and maybe let the verses I have posted here speak for themselves. Brothers and sisters, friends, readers, lurkers, the simple fact is that is we do not live and act as subjects of God's Kingdom today, then it should come as no big surprise that we will not enjoy the privileges and benefits of the Kingdom to come. If we do not submit our lives, our time, our energies, our heart and our minds to the righteous judge today, how could we possibly expect to have the privilege of receiving a crown of righteousness in the age to come? Every day, while we are still in this fleshly, earthly vessel, we are faced we choices - and these choices inevitably lead us to commit deeds that are "agathos" - good, excellent, distinguished, upright and honorable, or if we are not constantly on watch and on guard, they will lead us to commit deeds that are "kakos" - bad, wrong, wicked, injurious, pernicious and destructive. And the important thing to remember is that there will be a day of reckoning. If we live in outer darkness today, then maybe we will have to live in outer darkness for some period of time in the Kingdom to come. The Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. Are we willing to endure the discipline and chastising in this age, in order to receive a crown of righteousness in the age to come? If we do not accept, and even love, the Lord appearing to us to discipline and correct us today, how could we expect to be rewarded by him at his "epiphaneia" - his second advent at the dawn of the age to come? (Many thanks to BlueLetterBible.Org) - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

05-14-2022, 12:30 PM	#8
Sons to Glory! Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 2,617	Re: 1000 Years Discipline I basically concur with UntoHim on this. And if you look at most of the verses in his post, they are about rewards. Much of what is conveyed by Paul seems to be more in line with rewards for running the race well. And the word "bema," translated by most as "Judgment Seat" also applied, according to my readings, to the place of authority used in the Olympic Games. It was from there that the judgments were made as to how contestants fared in the games - whether they won or not or whether someone should be disqualified (BTW - not about loss of salvation). Paul talks about this in 1st Corinthians 9:27. For instance, we are now in the NBA playoff season. Our home team, the Phoenix Suns, are looking to win it all this year and are seriously geared-up for that, physically and emotionally. If they loose in the playoffs, there will be supreme disappointment. However, if they do lose, I don't think they are going to receive a formal punishment - the loss of the championship will be a hard enough "pill" to swallow by itself. In the New Testament context, there are rewards . . . or the loss of rewards, but I don't see that it's so much in the way of outright punishment. That is, loosing the reward is a punishment in and of itself. For instance, if you were a member of the church in Laodicea, you might fully expect to win the reward, but find instead in that day, that while you thought you were a sure "winner," in fact you had let yourself not be in good shape for the race (poor, blind, wretched). Therefore there might be much anguish and even "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in such a situation, as you loose the expected reward. There are many warnings in the Bible and the New Testament for believers, but I think warnings are there there to make us aware of the possibility of not gaining the reward. I think the main focus is to keep doing as Paul exhorts us, "forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." (Phil 3:13-14) __________________ LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS!

05-15-2022, 11:49 AM	#10
Timotheist Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 424	Re: 1000 Years Discipline I think it is reasonable to assume that the punishment of the believer will last no longer than 1000 yrs…. But I don’t recall Lee insisting that everyone judged negatively will experience the entire 1000 years in prison. And just what is the “Outer Darkness”, anyway?

05-16-2022, 07:38 AM	#13
Raptor Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 414	Re: 1000 Years Discipline The idea of "1,000" year discipline for believers is in other circles called "Kingdom exclusion." Many Bible teachers have taught this with a solid Biblical basis. It does not refer to the loss of salvation, neither "not getting into heaven." It specifically views the Kingdom as the particular Kingdom of the Heavens the Lord Jesus willl establish on earth at His second coming. It will last 1,000 years, so it is also referred to as the Millenial Kingdom. After that, there will be eternity with a new heaven and a new earth. The first person to teach kingdom exclusion was the apostle Paul as seen for example here: Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:9-11. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Ephesians 5:5.

05-12-2022, 09:25 PM	#1
Malaysian Observer Guest Posts: n/a	1000 Years Discipline Is there any discussions, videos, or topics that will debunk the 1000 years discipline the in millennial kingdom?

05-18-2022, 07:38 AM	#17
Raptor Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 414	Re: 1000 Years Discipline The Lord Jesus clearly described that a believer that lives unfaithfully or evilly will face harsh consequences: But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. Then He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:49-51. Many christians don´t believe this, so they twist the meaning and say that the servant is not saved. Impossible. The Lord does not call unbelievers "servants", and only believers would address Jesus as Lord, and call Him Master. An unbeliever DOES NOT BELIEVE there is a Lord, let alone call Him Master.

05-18-2022, 10:02 AM	#18
Sons to Glory! Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 2,617	Re: 1000 Years Discipline I think it's abundantly clear that the numerous warnings in the NT for believers not growing (running the race properly), shows that there is certainly accountability for what we do with this grace (favor/supply) we've been given. And this does not mean He sets the bar exceedingly high. We need to keep in mind the Lord's praise in the Matthew 25 parable, which says to be "faithful in a FEW things" and as a result being told, *"Well done good and faithful servant . . . enter into the joy of your Lord!"* __________________ LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS!

05-20-2022, 04:44 AM	#21
Timotheist Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 424	Re: 1000 Years Discipline Agree with Raptor. And to add this: just because Paul said this to a small group of Christians does NOT mean he is speaking of ALL believers.

05-21-2022, 09:53 AM	#26
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,824	Re: 1000 Years Discipline Hey Bible-believer, if "most Christians" are confounding the two kingdoms, maybe it's because the gospel writers and the Lord Jesus himself confounded the two kingdoms: In Matthew 19 the terms kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are used interchangeably WITHIN THE SPAN OF TWO CONSECUTIVE VERSES; 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." There are quite a number of other places that the terms kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are used interchangeably: Matthew 11:11 "Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." cf: Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew 13:11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given." cf: Mark 4:11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables". --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matthew 13:24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field," cf: Mark 4:26 And he said, “The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground" --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are quite a number of other instances in the canonical gospels in which the terms kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are used interchangeably. I, for one, believe that the Millennial Kingdom will be a physical, literal Kingdom where Christ reigns here on earth, I can't see how one could read the first few verses of Revelation 20 and not come to this conclusion. I have views on the "pre-trib" and "post-trib" controversy, but this is probably beyond the purview of our forum. The main thing that I would stress is that according to the Gospels and the writings of the apostles, we are not to be concerned too much with the future coming Kingdom (be it of Heaven or of God), but we should be busy "going about the Father's business". We have the Lord Jesus as our example. We have the early apostles, disciples and believers as our example. We have the early Christians who were persecuted and even martyred as our example. We have countless saints down through the ages who have left us a well-worn path that will lead us straight to the Kingdom of God and of the Heavens. And finally "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us." Heb 12:1 Brothers, sisters, friends, lurkers...we are in a race. God will not be mocked. If we are disqualified in this race in this age, how could we possibly think that we will be rewarded in the age(s) to come. To be sure, judgement will come, and so will the Kingdom of God and of Heaven. But first, judgment must begin at the house of God today. We cannot serve two masters, for these are masters of two different kingdoms. We can serve and worship the one true God, or we can serve the god of this world who has blinded the eyes of the unbelievers, and also those entrapped within false religion. Many of our dear brothers and sisters in the Local Church of Witness Lee have been blinded. They have been deceived into believing that the kingdom that Witness Lee built is the kingdom of God. They have been deceived into believing that their reward and punishment will be based upon the person and work of a mere man and his so-called ministry of the age. But we know better now, don't we? Maybe if we try a little harder to live within the Kingdom of God today, God may use us to reach those who have been blinded by unbelief and false religion. - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

05-24-2022, 12:18 PM	#31
Raptor Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 414	Re: 1000 Years Discipline This is what the Spirit clearly and explicitly states in Revelation 2 and 3 that will happen to those believers who do not repent, who are not victorious. (Grammar changed to reflect negative consequence But if you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. If you do not overcome, I will not grant you the right to eat from the tree of life in the Paradise of God. If you are not faithful even unto death, I will not give you the crown of life. I will come to you shortly and wage war against you with the sword of My mouth. If you do not overcome, I will not give you the hidden manna. I will not give you a white stone inscribed with a new name. Behold, I will cast her onto a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her will suffer great tribulation. Then I will strike her children dead, and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. If you do not overcome and continue in My work until the end, I will not give you authority over the nations. I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you. Some of you are not worthy, so you will not walk with Me in white. Like them, he who does not overcome will not be dressed in white, and I will blot out your name from the Book of Life, and will not confess your name before My Father and His angels. Because you have not kept My command to persevere, I will not keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. If you do not overcome I will not make you a pillar in the temple of My God, I will not write on you the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name. I am about to vomit you out of My mouth! I will not come in and dine with you, and you with Me. If you do not overcome, I will not grant you the right to sit with Me on My throne.

05-29-2022, 01:34 PM	#33
Raptor Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 414	Re: 1000 Years Discipline Reward and discipline at the Lord´s coming back with His Kingdom: Another parable clearly showing us that Chrsit, the King, will come back to establish His kingdom and reward the labor of His good and faithful servants with authority, reigning over cities. Yet the servant that did not labor faithfully will be called wicked and even what he has will be taken away from him. They are all believers: they are all called servants and the Lord would not entrust His business to unbelievers and in addition they all call Him Master. A man of noble birth went to a distant country to lay claim to his kingship and then return. 13Beforehand, he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. ‘Conduct business with this until I return,’ he said. 14But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We do not want this man to rule over us.’ When he returned from procuring his kingship, he summoned the servants to whom he had given the money, to find out what each one had earned. 16The first servant came forward and said, ‘Master, your mina has produced ten more minas.’ 17His master replied, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very small matter, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ 18The second servant came and said, ‘Master, your mina has made five minas.’ 19And to this one he said, ‘You shall have authority over five cities.’ 20Then another servant came and said, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have laid away in a piece of cloth. 21For I was afraid of you, because you are a harsh man. You withdraw what you did not deposit and reap what you did not sow.’ 22His master replied, ‘You wicked servant, I will judge you by your own words. So you knew that I am a harsh man, withdrawing what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then did you not deposit my money in the bank, and upon my return I could have collected it with interest?’ Then he told those standing by, ‘Take the mina from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’ 25‘Master,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’ 26He replied, ‘I tell you that everyone who has will be given more; but the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Luke 9:12-26.

05-29-2022, 05:00 PM	#34
Zezima Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 361	Re: 1000 Years Discipline None of these verses say anything about born again Christians being cast into 1,000 years of darkness to experience separation from God in order to be transformed more because they underperformed in life by not gaining enough Christ.

05-31-2022, 07:55 PM	#37
Timotheist Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 424	Re: 1000 Years Discipline 1000 years is not such a long time. The rich man has been in torment in Sheol for more than 2000 years, yet he will still be saved.

06-01-2022, 08:32 AM	#41
Timotheist Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 424	Re: 1000 Years Discipline Raptor sums it up well. The duration of the kingdom being 1000 years is unique to Revelation. Matthew, et. al., refer several times to rewards and punishment, but NEVER mentions the duration. I personally believe that the punishment is proportional to the crime (you will not come out of prison until you have paid the last cent). So not all will be out for the entire 1000 years. But do I have "proof" of that belief? no

06-03-2022, 03:33 AM	#49
Raptor Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 414	Re: 1000 Years Discipline Sharing authority and joy with Christ as a reward in the Kingdom is a conditional matter as seen in the following verses: CONDITION: faithful, overcoming, enduring, good, wise. REWARD: authority, responsibility, reigning, joy. Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their portion at the proper time? 43Blessed is that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 44Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. Matt. 12:42-44 Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master!’ Matt. 25:21 ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very small matter, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ Luke. 19:17. If we endure, we will also reign together with Him; if we will deny Him, He also will deny us; 2 Tim. 2:12 And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. 27He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery. Rev. 2:26-27 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev. 20:4. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne. Rev. 3:21.

06-09-2022, 06:47 AM	#50
Matt Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 155	Re: 1000 Years Discipline I rely on some things when thinking about this subject. 1. The Bible is not completely clear 2. God is righteous in His judgments 3. God judges each one of us individually based on our deeds and the condition of our heart. There is no group aspect to this judgment. It is entirely individual as siblings in Christ. 4. Do not be afraid. Jesus says this a lot. 5. My Father in heaven loves me The verses regarding "weeping and gnashing of teeth" are not clear as to their targets. They could be referring to the "good believers vs. bad believers" or "believers vs. non-believers". As a result, I think about what the Bible says, the nature of God and how He has dealt with me in all aspects of my life to form an opinion here. It is just an opinion. I believe that the real goal for us now is to become as fully mature in Christ as possible (Ephesians 4). I believe that the process of growth includes making mistakes and having problems that we can't find our way past. However, if we focus on the Lord then we will mature. We may not know or be fully willing to mature as much as we could, but we should be encouraged to grow as much as possible and to ask God to supply where there is any lack of ability or willingness. With all these things in mind, I completely set aside trying to definitively resolve this issue about believers being in "outer darkness" for some or all of the Millennial kingdom. God has a plan for each one of us to FULLY participate in eternity (beyond the Millennial kingdom) and He consistently sets forward the idea of rewards vs. punishments under both the Old Covenant and the New Testament. Whatever I have to go through to reach the measure of maturity God has in mind for me, I simply ask for Him to supply me with what I need to walk the path. On the day we are judged as believers, we will all fall short, but we have a good and loving Father who is judging us. Yes, he is righteous, but I am not afraid because of how I see He has taken care of me so far through all the good and bad things I have done and all the good and bad things in my heart. Matt

06-09-2022, 08:59 AM	#51
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,100	Re: 1000 Years Discipline Your post makes a lot of sense, Matt. It seems that the meaning of the verses on this (or any) topic...generally speaking...imply a more personal matter. i.e., did you figure out with your natural mind your position on 1000 Years Discipline all by yourself? Did you read a verse and form an opinion, or do you trust your personal relationship with God to spiritually reveal in His own time, the/a matter, to you. It seems to me that the best takeaway from the "1000 Years Discipline" discussion of the topic might be: "I'm not sure...". Or as you have stated: 1. The Bible is not completely clear 2. God is righteous in His judgments 3. God judges each one of us individually based on our deeds and the condition of our heart. There is no group aspect to this judgment. It is entirely individual as siblings in Christ. 4. Do not be afraid. Jesus says this a lot. 5. My Father in heaven loves me Consider 1 Corinthians 2:12-16 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ. These verses address the scriptural "requirements" for interpreting scripture: Not my requirements. 12: not by the spirit of the world, but the spirit of God. What is the "spirit of the world"? Well, what we know for sure is that the spirit of the world is not the spirit of God. 13: not by the words of man's wisdom, but the teaching of the Holy Spirit...comparing spiritual with spiritual. What is "man's wisdom"? It seems that man's wisdom is whatever man figures out on his own without the benefit of the spirit of God. (Leaning to man's own understanding perhaps?) 14: spiritual matters are foolish to the "natural" (not spiritual) man. Is it possible that literal verses in the scripture can be subject to foolish (natural) interpretation based on "man's wisdom"? But...but...but...The Bible says "this". The Bible doesn't say "that". 15: the spiritual man judges but is not judged. Huh? 16: Who has known the mind of the Lord? (Similar to the question/discourse to Job.) Do you, natural man, know what you're talking about? Do you really think you, natural man, are qualified to teach (or speak for) God?

06-09-2022, 09:14 AM	#52
Zezima Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 361	Re: 1000 Years Discipline If the Bible isn’t clear on a doctrine, then that should be proof enough to debunk a strongly preached doctrine in the Recovery right?

06-12-2022, 10:57 AM	#58
Raptor Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 414	Re: 1000 Years Discipline The "Kingdom exclusion" teaching was not originated by WL. Others authors before and after have penned similar conclusions. Here is a recent book (2002) of a detailed view of reward and punishment at the Judgment Seat of Christ: *"The Believer's Payday"* by Paul N. Benware "We now enter our study of the coming payday for the believer when he or she stands individually before the Lord who bought him or her and gives account for what was done in this present life. For some, it will be a day of incredible joy, satisfaction, and rejoicing. For others, it will be a troubling day of shame and even grief." Benware, Paul N. The Believer's Payday (p. 7). AMG Publishers. Kindle Edition. https://www.amazon.com/Believers-Pay.../dp/B006T37ICK

06-13-2022, 08:08 PM	#59
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,100	Re: 1000 Years Discipline “P.S. As a "fun" exercise try reading the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America and asking yourself, are there "doctrines of demons" in it that you believe in? ...any discussion on this topic would be outside the scope of this forum. Just a provocative question to consider... ” Matt

06-14-2022, 09:03 PM	#63
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,100	Re: 1000 Years Discipline I have deleted the last four off topic posts. Nell Moderator

06-22-2022, 03:48 PM	#81
Zezima Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 361	Re: 1000 Years Discipline Just to clarify a bit more Dispensationalism is a hermeneutic framework for interpreting the Bible. Christians typically fall into two camps when it comes to the lenses they interpret the Bible through. Dispensationalism Theology and Covenant Theology. The biggest difference between the two is Israel and the church. Dispensationlists believe that Israel and the church are different. Covenant theology views the church as Israel. Premillennial, postmillennial, and Amillennial are the three main views of the end times (eschatology). Neither of those eschatology views are exclusive to a hermeneutic framework.

06-23-2022, 03:20 AM	#82
Raptor Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 414	Re: 1000 Years Discipline Here is a summary of premill. from gotquestions.org. (Concerning their view point in their ministry, gotquestions.org supports premillennialism and rejects amillennialism and postmillennialism.) "Premillennialism is the view that Christ’s second coming will occur prior to His millennial kingdom, and that the millennial kingdom is a literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth. In order to understand and interpret the passages in Scripture that deal with end-times events, there are two things that must be clearly understood: a proper method of interpreting Scripture and the distinction between Israel (the Jews) and the church (the body of all believers in Jesus Christ). First, a proper method of interpreting Scripture requires that Scripture be interpreted in a way that is consistent with its context. This means that a passage must be interpreted in a way that is consistent with the audience to which it is written, those it is written about, whom it is written by, and so on. It is critical to know the author, intended audience, and historical background of each passage one interprets. The historical and cultural setting will often reveal the correct meaning of a passage. It is also important to remember that Scripture interprets Scripture. That is, often a passage will cover a topic or subject that is also addressed elsewhere in the Bible. It is important to interpret all of these passages consistently with one another. Finally, and most importantly, passages must always be taken in their normal, regular, plain, literal meaning unless the context of the passage indicates that it is figurative in nature. A literal interpretation does not eliminate the possibility of figures of speech being used. Rather, it encourages the interpreter to not read figurative language into the meaning of a passage unless it is appropriate for that context. It is crucial to never seek a “deeper, more spiritual” meaning than is presented. Spiritualizing a passage is dangerous because it moves the basis for accurate interpretation from Scripture to the mind of the reader. Then, there can be no objective standard of interpretation; instead, Scripture becomes subject to each person’s own impression of what it means. Second Peter 1:20-21 reminds us that “no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” Applying these principles of biblical interpretation, it must be seen that Israel (Abraham’s physical descendants) and the church (all New Testament believers) are two distinct groups. It is crucial to recognize that Israel and the church are distinct because, if this is misunderstood, Scripture will be misinterpreted. Especially prone to misinterpretation are passages that deal with promises made to Israel (both fulfilled and unfulfilled). Such promises should not be applied to the church. Remember, the context of the passage will determine to whom it is addressed and will point to the most correct interpretation. With those concepts in mind, we can look at various passages of Scripture that produce the premillennial view. Genesis 12:1-3: “The LORD had said to Abram, ‘Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.’” God promises Abraham three things here: Abraham would have many descendants, this nation would own and occupy a land, and a universal blessing will come to all mankind out of Abraham’s line (the Jews). In Genesis 15:9-17, God ratifies His covenant with Abraham. By the way this is done, God places sole responsibility for the covenant upon Himself. That is, there was nothing Abraham could do or fail to do that would void the covenant God made. Also in this passage, the boundaries are set for the land that the Jews will eventually occupy. For a detailed list of the boundaries, see Deuteronomy 34. Other passages that deal with the promise of land are Deuteronomy 30:3-5 and Ezekiel 20:42-44. In 2 Samuel 7:10–17, we see the promise made by God to King David. God makes some special promises concerning one of David's sons: God will establish his kingdom (verse 12), be his father (verse 14), and never remove His love from him (verse 15). In addition, God says this son “will build a house for my Name” (verse 13). These promises were fulfilled in Solomon. However, part of God’s promise was that David’s son’s throne would be established “forever” (verse 13). This part of the prophecy could not refer to Solomon, because Solomon died and did not retain the throne forever. Thus, we have a prophecy with a dual fulfillment: it was fulfilled partially in Solomon and fully in Jesus Christ, also called the Son of David (Matthew 1:1). Solomon did, in some ways, prefigure Christ in his kingship, wisdom, and peaceful reign. Of course, Jesus is greater than Solomon in every respect (Matthew 12:42). So, 2 Samuel 7 makes reference to Solomon’s temporary rule and to Christ’s rule during the millennium and forever. King Solomon could not be the ultimate fulfillment of the promise made to David; it is a covenant that has yet to be fully realized. With all this in mind, examine what is recorded in Revelation 20:1–7. The thousand years repeatedly mentioned in this passage corresponds to Christ’s literal 1000-year reign on the earth. Premillennialism sees this passage as describing the future fulfillment of the promise that Christ would be seated on David’s throne. God made unconditional covenants with both Abraham and David. Neither of these covenants has been fully or permanently fulfilled. A literal, physical rule of Christ is the only way the covenants can be fulfilled as God promised they would. Applying a literal method of interpretation to Scripture results in the pieces of the puzzle coming together. All of the Old Testament prophecies of Jesus’ first coming were fulfilled literally. Therefore, we should expect the prophecies regarding His second coming to be fulfilled literally as well. Premillennialism is the only system that agrees with a literal interpretation of God’s covenants and end-times prophecy."

06-25-2022, 08:49 AM	#92
Sons to Glory! Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 2,617	Re: 1000 Years Discipline I told the Lord this morning that I feared the Bema judgement, because I am not fully convinced I am faithful in the few things He's given me. The more I look into the judgement of both regenerated and unregenerated, the more I'm not so confident in what I thought I knew! (knowledge, like Paul says, will fail) And while John relates that, "Perfect love casts out fear," scripture still has a lot to say about the fear of the Lord being good for the soul. So maybe we need both the carrot and the stick to help us . . . And the more I look into the subject of the final judgement of hell, the more I see that this judgment for unregenerated is probably not exactly what I thought (eternal, conscious torment), and that there certainly are passages that could be construed as annihilation of the soul or perhaps even universalism . . . there are verses that seem to support each view. Likewise are verses that seem to show various regarding the Bema. So to me, it's like I told a brother recently: "Whatever its exact nature is (the final judgment of hell), it's not going to be a pleasant thing!" I view what will happen at the Bema in a similar way - there certainly will be accountability for things done in the body after we are saved, and that has the potential to be quite good or quite unpleasant! __________________ LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS!

06-28-2022, 12:59 PM	#95
Timotheist Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 424	Re: 1000 Years Discipline Regarding the judgement of the saved, I guess it all boils down to this: "You can live, but I ain't gonna marry you."

07-20-2022, 11:47 AM	#100
Zezima Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 361	Re: 1000 Years Discipline I hope you stretched adequately before you performed these mental gymnastics. -

07-26-2022, 12:31 AM	#133
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: 1000 Years Discipline Definitely agree with Zezima on the topic of habitual sin being incompatible with a genuine believer. 1 John is exactly what I thought of too. Additionally, when we have a believer in sin as described in Matthew 18, if they continue on in the sin or in denying their offense, we are explicitly told to treat them as an unbeliever! Not "oh, just another believer in habitual sin". 2 Timothy 3 is most definitely not concerning believers. Verse 8 even says "these men oppose truth" and "these kinds of people are disqualified from the faith". That chapter does not describe believers. Trapped

07-27-2022, 12:02 PM	#142
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: 1000 Years Discipline I respect your right to your opinion, but my comment was just like 1000s of other comments on this forum. Even within this thread people have made un-qualified claims and didn't get this kind of response. I stand behind what I said and have provided additional examples from other verses and in other comments, and anyone is welcome to make a different case. Requiring that every read of the Bible must have an explicit experience of the HS, or questioning my experiences with the Lord, or stating that phrases might mean something else without providing at least one example of what they might otherwise mean just come across as baseless nitpicking and I'm not interested in it. I'm also not interested in claims of authority. You are adding the label "authority" to what I write, not me, or the way I write. Please focus on the content of what I said and provide alternates, rather than make up false claims about my intentions or apparent inability to perfectly craft a sentence to your liking, etc. Thanks. Trapped

07-29-2022, 07:46 PM	#155
Timotheist Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 424	Re: 1000 Years Discipline The "leaves" being linked to "clothing" makes sense when reading about the naked guest who was thrown into outer darkness. He has eternal life, but not enough holiness to enter the Son's kingdom (more specifically, the wedding banquet). I suggest he will be saved, but will need the leaves to cover his nakedness in the New Creation, as one of the "Nations".

08-01-2022, 02:45 PM	#169
Timotheist Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 424	Re: 1000 Years Discipline "For we [the church members] must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad." Salvation (eternal life) is given based on faith, not works. Nonetheless, it is also clear that we will be judged based upon our deeds. So many of the American denominations stress the first point to a fault, and then belittle any talk of the second. The end result for many is that they expect to be exempt from judgement. "That's not for me, that's for the unbelievers." Dangerous stuff... promotes a condition of lukewarmness, putting the congregations at risk.

08-02-2022, 01:50 PM	#176
Sons to Glory! Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 2,617	Re: 1000 Years Discipline This may be a little off topic, but here goes . . . why is it that most Christians see little to nothing regarding believers' accountability for their works after being reborn? At least that's my perception, as one's I'm familiar with (radio, TV preachers, many Christian's I meet, etc.) seem to be quite binary. That is, either one is saved (and thereby gets all rewards) or not. There rarely appears to be much in they way of obeying His speaking and doing His will after being saved, and being held accountable for that. Am I accurate in that perception? Of course I hear preachers saying, "We must love God/others and obey and give and don't be proud, be sincere, don't sin, etc.," but again next to nothing about any future accountability for things done in this body, perhaps other than it doesn't please God or there may be consequences in this life. Why is that? Once I saw the matter of accountability for His children in the word, now I see the principle everywhere in the bible . . . __________________ LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS!

07-25-2023, 10:45 PM	#194
ACuriousFellow Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 173	Re: 1000 Years Discipline I have to say that this was both a fascinating and mind-numbing read, haha! You would never see something like this in The Lord's Recovery. Too much "death" and "mind" and "self" coming from everyone on this thread. I have to say, it was quite an exercise just to read it. I can only imagine what it was like for the athletes running this race, haha!

07-31-2023, 11:13 AM	#197
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,824	Re: 1000 Years Discipline A few questions for my esteemed brother Raptor. (**These inquiries are made in good faith, and not meant to be merely rhetorical, or meant to be "gottcha" type questions. They are, however, questions that those who subscribe to the kind of interpretations you have supported in this thread need to answer with proofs from Scripture, especially the writings of the authors of the New Testament epistles.) Where, in the New Testament epistles, or in the earliest of Christian writings, did the scripture writing apostles (or early authors) make any clear and concise difference between "The Kingdom of God" and "The Kingdom of Heaven"? And if they did, where did they make any clear and concise statements/teachings that would indicate that the Kingdom of Heaven will, at least in part, be a time of punishment/discipline for genuine believers who did not live up to some (undefined as of yet) standard of behavior? Where, in the New Testament epistles, or in the earliest Christian writings, were the terms "weeping and gnashing of teeth" applied to genuine believers as a descriptor of their disposition before God in the coming Kingdom, ostensibly for not living up to some (undefined as of yet) standard of behavior? Apart from Watchman Nee, Witness Lee and the Brethren teachers who heavily influenced them, could you please cite a number of renown, reputable teachers, scholars, authors or apologists who have clearly and concisely annunciated the teachings that are being discussed here in this thread. Many thanks to Raptor and all those who have argued in good faith on this thread. I think we can all agree that the subject of rewards and discipline in the age to come is extremely important for us to discus here on this forum. - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

07-31-2023, 05:15 PM	#198
ACuriousFellow Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 173	Re: 1000 Years Discipline Ooh. These are fascinating questions. I believe I'll focus on the ones in the first two bullet points. Thank you, UntoHim. - __________________ A Curious Fellow