Does anyone still care? LSM Response to Open Letter

http://www.open-letter.org/

I'm sure most are familiar with this open letter but in case you're not, here it is.

I was wondering today, why has something like this not happened again? Is it because the people who signed this document felt that this was sufficient? Is it because they don't care anymore? Is it because other heresies have come up?

There are a lot of other possibilities and I always prefer to be gracious, especially when thinking of both fellow brothers and sisters. I'm thankful that this was done, but it seems like the Local Churches continue, and no one is addressing it anymore. At least not theologians and pastors of this caliber. Why do you guys think?

And has anyone heard of any of the signers readdressing this?

[Trapped]

My honest opinion is the reason is "time".

The open letter at the link above was a certain length long. LSM's response to it was very, very long. And meandering. And evasive and disingenuous. Or required inner knowledge of the LC in order to see where they were lying.

Who of the more than 70 scholars/leaders who signed the open letter has the time and energy to devote their unpaid resources to a group that refuses to listen and plays a never-ending game of dancing deception? I'm not aware of many.

Norm Geisler and Ron Rhodes, two of the signers, wrote a lengthy response to CRI's journal on the local church, which response contained many excellent points, but LSM just countered with an even longer evasive and disingenuous response. (several books' worth, if my memory serves me well).

The amount of time it takes to untangle LSM's wonky teachings and slimy tactics is prohibitive to....well....just about everyone.

We get people like Nigel Tomes who takes an exhaustive approach to methodically parsing through the false teachings, but he's the rare one. No one has that kind of time or even willingness to voluntarily submit themselves to reading through the ministry in order to counter it's twisted view. I've sat down a couple times to take some personal notes on a particular teaching so I can really understand where the problems were, but always came away from it like "I'm never doing that again.....what an exhausting expenditure of energy!" because it was like every other sentence contained multiple problems.

Also, the more specific and persistent someone gets, probably the more likely they feel they are to potentially face lawsuits from DCP. I wonder if the 70+ scholars/leaders banded together because they felt there was safety in numbers, but I wouldn't expect those same 70 to continue to coordinate together to continue pushing back on the local church. And so it would be up to a smaller group or an individual, and they would then probably feel more vulnerable to legal troubles, etc from DCP. Just a guess.

Also, aside from the lawsuits, the complaints of the open letter are theological disputes and....I don't know....a lot of letters would need to go out to a lot of aberrant groups out there. These kind of theological aberrations of the local church ("natures" of things) don't have a very big palpable impact and probably sink low on the list of other more pressing items.

Just my thoughts.

Trapped

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

http://www.open-letter.org/

I'm sure most are familiar with this open letter but in case you're not, here it is.

I was wondering today, why has something like this not happened again? Is it because the people who signed this document felt that this was sufficient? Is it because they don't care anymore? Is it because other heresies have come up?

There are a lot of other possibilities and I always prefer to be gracious, especially when thinking of both fellow brothers and sisters. I'm thankful that this was done, but it seems like the Local Churches continue, and no one is addressing it anymore. At least not theologians and pastors of this caliber. Why do you guys think?

And has anyone heard of any of the signers readdressing this?

I have not heard of anyone readdressing the matter. This press release .pdf http://www.open-letter.org/pdf/OL_PressRelease is dated January 9, 2007…almost 15 years ago. It’s possible that the threat of lawsuits was enough in that time period that the signatories on the open letter were sufficiently bullied into giving up their “mission”.

The Corporate Statement of Harvest House Publishers still keeps the chronology of the proceedings on its website. https://www.harvesthousepublishers.c...ate-statement/

Shepherding Words has this to say about lawsuits: https://shepherdingwords.com/tag/lawsuits/

In its narrative about its litigation against Harvest House, Shepherding Words doesn’t mention (oops!) that it’s failed appeal to the SCOTUS didn’t have enough merit to interest the Supremes in hearing the appeal.

A Call to Keep Theological Disputes Out of the Courts
On June 18, 2007, the U.S. Supreme Court brought an end to The Local Church’s contentious and unsuccessful six-year, $136 million legal battle against Harvest House Publishers and two of its authors, John Ankerberg and John Weldon. The Local Church and its publishing arm, Living Stream Ministry, alleged they had been wrongly accused of criminal conduct in Ankerberg and Weldon’s book Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions.
The high court’s refusal to hear the case is The Local Church’s fourth appeal to be denied since January 5, 2006, when a Texas appellate court ruled in favor of Harvest House and its authors, and stated unequivocally that the Encyclopedia did not defame The Local Church. The court wrote,
If a statement does not concern appellants, it cannot defame them, nor can it injure their reputations....nothing in the book singles out [The Local Church] as having committed the “immoral, illegal, and despicable” actions alleged in [The Local Church’s] petition (emphasis added).
The Texas Supreme Court upheld that ruling, and now the U.S. Supreme Court has done the same.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...36&postcount=2
This topic was discussed on this forum at the above link,which includes a list of 20 lawsuits filed by WLee, et al, beginning in 1966.

Nell

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Trapped

We get people like Nigel Tomes who takes an exhaustive approach to methodically parsing through the false teachings, but he's the rare one. No one has that kind of time or even willingness to voluntarily submit themselves to reading through the ministry in order to counter it's twisted view. I've sat down a couple times to take some personal notes on a particular teaching so I can really understand where the problems were, but always came away from it like "I'm never doing that again.....what an exhausting expenditure of energy!" because it was like every other sentence contained multiple problems.

Trapped

DEAR LORD ABOVE I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO'S EXPERIENCED THIS.

I suddenly don't feel so alone anymore... May the Lord pour an overabundance of grace and mercy and peace and strength and rest upon those who continue in such endeavors. The first that comes to mind is a YouTube channel called "The Lord's Recovery Unchained." They've take up quite an endeavor, and it's gotten pretty heated in that comments section.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Nell

I have not heard of anyone readdressing the matter. This press release .pdf http://www.open-letter.org/pdf/OL_PressRelease is dated January 9, 2007…almost 15 years ago. It’s possible that the threat of lawsuits was enough in that time period that the signatories on the open letter were sufficiently bullied into giving up their “mission”.

Nell

It seems that more and more people from within the group are starting to speak up again, both with regards to abusive experiences and doctrinal analysis. I have this hope that something will come of it, but my expectations aren't so high... My heart aches for my brothers and sisters who are in the denomination known as The Lord's Recovery.

[GraceAlone]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

It seems that more and more people from within the group are starting to speak up again, both with regards to abusive experiences and doctrinal analysis. I have this hope that something will come of it, but my expectations aren't so high... My heart aches for my brothers and sisters who are in the denomination known as The Lord's Recovery.

That's good to hear as I hate to think of so many consciences having become numb to the things you mentioned and that many of us witnessed. As someone who's not been there for a while, may I ask where you see this speaking up from inside happening? Are folks finding ways, in person or online, to actually be heard?

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

That's good to hear as I hate to think of so many consciences having become numb to the things you mentioned and that many of us witnessed. As someone who's not been there for a while, may I ask where you see this speaking up from inside happening? Are folks finding ways, in person or online, to actually be heard?

I've heard of a few brothers in my locality that have concerns. I left along with two other young men after trying to reason with several others (about two dozen or so) in The Lord's Recovery about a particular matter that deeply troubled us, and that was apart from our doctrinal concerns.

I know of one other brother who also has deep concerns about The Recovery's obsession with Witness Lee and just having a good time rather than actually maturing and growing. I do not know if he has voiced his concerns, but he is considering leaving The Lord's Recovery.

I have also heard of one other particularly outspoken brother who has voiced his concerns for the lack of care for teaching about repentance and doing good works and a lack of discipline within the church. As far as I've heard, he's really only spoken and argued with some of the elders but has not spoken to the congregation. There is a strong culture of remaining silent and keeping things as concealed as possible lest one be seen as a troublemaker. This outspoken brother still seems to be hooked on the overall teachings of The Recovery, but his heart is definitely stirred up. I do not know how he would feel about Jo Casteel's testimony and the leading ones' response to it. But that is now at least five brothers from my locality who's hearts have been stirred up recently.

My mother had also spoken to several of the women and saw that many of them were discontent with the way they were treated but were too disillusioned to really do anything about it. It seems easy for them to open up to other sisters, apparently, but they aren't really willing to do more than that. It was disturbing to hear that many see these things but somehow feel they are trapped there because "there is no place like The Lord's Recovery!"

It does seem like a good idea to revisit the open letter (and the LSM's response) again in 2023.

The LCM's response is very long and no one has the time to write a rebuttal against all of their nonsense, but I think that their arguments regarding the trinity (only 10 pages long) is of a manageable length to write a rebuttal. I am currently swamped with secular work right now but I will start working on it ASAP.

Wish me luck

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

DEAR LORD ABOVE I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO'S EXPERIENCED THIS.

I suddenly don't feel so alone anymore... May the Lord pour an overabundance of grace and mercy and peace and strength and rest upon those who continue in such endeavors. The first that comes to mind is a YouTube channel called "The Lord's Recovery Unchained." They've take up quite an endeavor, and it's gotten pretty heated in that comments section.

ACuriousFellow - welcome to the forum!

I'm glad you don't feel alone in this experience anymore. I have been amazed the few times I've sat down to really understand what's wrong with a particular teaching, just how much "off" stuff there is. Or just how much one off thing is connected to another off thing is connected to another off thing. Or how the ministry will misrepresent a verse juuuuust a little bit, which ends up so far off course down the line. It really makes me grieve for all the "saints in the church" who are entangled in this web. It truly is an entire "system of error". And it feels almost literally designed to be so, all the ways the errors are mutually supportive, etc. Add on top of that the culture of blatant eisegesis, and the saints who largely don't seem to be able to grasp the eisegetical approach they so often take, and it feels pretty hopeless.

But we know it's not hopeless, because we are all here and not trapped there anymore. And according to what you've said on other comments in this thread, there are still others in the local church who are in the process of realizing what's wrong. I hope they are supplied to keep pushing through the quagmire and to get out of that place that's so devoid of light and love.

Trapped

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by LyingStreamMinistry

It does seem like a good idea to revisit the open letter (and the LSM's response) again in 2023.

The LCM's response is very long and no one has the time to write a rebuttal against all of their nonsense, but I think that their arguments regarding the trinity (only 10 pages long) is of a manageable length to write a rebuttal. I am currently swamped with secular work right now but I will start working on it ASAP.

Wish me luck

LyingStreamMinistry - welcome to the forum and what a username!

Any rebuttal of any unscriptural teachings in the local church is well worth the time to so many desperate people behind the scenes who know that something is wrong but need others to put the actual words to it.

Good luck on your endeavor!

Trapped

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by LyingStreamMinistry

It does seem like a good idea to revisit the open letter (and the LSM's response) again in 2023.

The LCM's response is very long and no one has the time to write a rebuttal against all of their nonsense, but I think that their arguments regarding the trinity (only 10 pages long) is of a manageable length to write a rebuttal. I am currently swamped with secular work right now but I will start working on it ASAP.

Wish me luck

I actually made a bit of an analysis on their "Special Fellowship" at their semiannual conference a while back. I wouldn't call it professional, but it was good to help me blow off some steam on all the Recovery nonsense.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Trapped

It truly is an entire "system of error". And it feels almost literally designed to be so, all the ways the errors are mutually supportive, etc.

Trapped

Yes. It seems exactly like a spider web. I get one string of doctrine off them, and then when I focus on the next they get tangled up in the first one again and so on and so forth because everything is so interconnected and tangled together.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

There is a strong culture of remaining silent and keeping things as concealed as possible lest one be seen as a troublemaker.

Although this is true, don't forget that there's been high profile public invitation and encouragement, by a current leader in the Lord's recovery, for folks to speak up, to debate and discuss, and to hypothesize and postulate. I know he wasn't speaking in church at that time, but still let's hold up his words as an encouragement to all - perhaps that message should out go to church members? Or, are the local churches like one of those horribly dysfunctional families that smile nicely to the neighbours and say the right things, then the door closes and the tyranny begins? Let's hope not!

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I actually made a bit of an analysis on their "Special Fellowship" at their semiannual conference a while back. I wouldn't call it professional, but it was good to help me blow off some steam on all the Recovery nonsense.

Hey Curious Fellow - if you would like to blow off some additional steam without much need to dig into the muck of "LR's Sewage System Of Twisted Bible Truth" here's one rather small but I think strategic example of Witness Lee blunting (along with his complicit Editors & Polishers) a very simple command to the church from Paul the Apostle.

And they call this crap a Holy Word For Morning Revival?


Mixed in among WL's word salad treatment of Eph 5:11 and the following verses I perceive an agenda to shut down the likelihood of any corrective fellowship.

Also this pretzelization of scripture seems to further bolster the "covering" doctrine which has been so handy in maintaining tight control over the hearts & minds of the group members.

Dittos for Nee's New Testament Deputy Authority pipe-dream.

Further down in the so-called "Ministry Portion" WL's MOTA-ized opinion sets the bar impossibly high for anyone who still thinks it's necessary and right for them to reprove or rebuke someone in the LR.

What a show stopper that is! Who could meet that criteria of full purity? So, case closed...

Please do an analysis on this if you are game. I look forward to seeing how other people's perspectives can sniff out even more poison in the pot that people are being fed from.

Link to my pdf version: https://blendedbody.com/hwmr/WLTwistingEph5v11.pdf

P.S.

[Ohio]

Since the following is a jpg image, I can not highlight the particular section under discussion.

Here Apostle Paul exhorts the Ephesians to rebuke / reprove the unfruitful works of darkness in their midst. These are things too shameful to even mention in his epistle. When Paul instructed Timothy about such sins by leaders (I Tm 5.19-21), his goal was to bring warning to all, that all might soberly learn, by making an example of the one who sinned, even if he was an elder.

Unfortunately WL never practiced this. Rather, when sin hit his ministry, he preached "covering the brothers." He preached that the "surgeon must be free of all germs." He preached that only the one "who is without sin" can cast the first stone. But WL and the Blendeds have used these "fake standards" so that these verses would never be applied to themselves.

They regularly castigated all of Christianity for their supposed failures, yet hid their own. And why not? Are they not "the acting god?" The Minister of the Age? He in whom God, "hath not beheld iniquity?" (Num 23.21) Such perks bestowed on the "fake head" of the church residing in Anaheim. Supposedly he is accountable to no man, but only to God!

Having studied Roman Papalism throughout my life as a real Christian, this rotten thinking brought in the vilest of corruptions into the church. Does not LSM's MOTA enjoy the same "perks" as the Pope? Neither the POTUS nor the Pope ever got their own dedicated cemetery just so others could "rest" near to their "beloved."

[aron]

Originally Posted by ByHisGrace

A year before I left the LC, a girl questioned some of the leading brothers during bible study about whether the LC is related to some cult and that her pastor had negative views over Witness Lee. The leading brothers flew into a rage and said " I WAS WITNESS LEE'S PERSONAL STUDENT, I'VE SEEN HIM FACE TO FACE. TELL YOUR PASTOR TO COME SEE ME, I'LL SUE HIM MYSELF".... I was deeply shocked at how emotional the leading brothers were over things being said about Witness Lee. The girl wasn't criticizing Christ or the Bible...

What's striking is the visceral reaction that one sees when the wrong button gets pushed. The response isn't spiritual at all. The veneer is peeled back and underlying emotional forces show themselves. Rage is neither eternal life or objective truth, but a cover for even more deeply repressed emotions of confusion, fear and shame. Instead of healing, there's a cover over an unresolved wound; in Jesus' words, a whitewashed wall covering a tomb.

To suffer is common human experience. Most of us experience fear, shame, loss, grief, and confusion. But I believe these inner hurts can be healed, and the effects can be removed. The LC programme of incessant shouting offered some temporary relief. Perhaps related, there was a fad in the 1970s called "primal scream therapy" where people would let it all out, and feel better. Similarly the "exercise your spirit" philosophy was initially appealing. But even then, looking back, I could have used discernment - Paul wrote "exercise yourself unto Godliness" meaning self-restraint and good works like helping (sharing with and/or caring for) others. But in the LC, we turned it into screaming matches - literally - who could make the most noise was most "on fire for God" etc.

And when that system and its thought-world got challenged, the leader flew into rage, as seen above. Many of us have seen this, too, as numerous testimonies show, that this kind of reaction wasn't an exception but the rule. And this pattern indicates a lack of inner transformation, but the underlying problem is that often the one lacking spiritual depth, and raging aloud on weaker ones, was leading the church! If so, what's a young person to do? They're trained to respect authority, but the person placed in authority suddenly acts like a petulant child!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primal_therapy

"Primal therapy became very influential during a brief period in the early 1970s after the publication of Arthur Janov's first book, The Primal Scream."

It may be coincidental that this LC practice of "calling" took off at about this time. But either way, I'm quoting the above post to show that calling alone doesn't purify us. The leading one who's 'rebuking' or 'correcting' in this case isn't doing it out of a pure heart. Rage doesn't show purity.

Below is a song that illustrates how we got into this state, and what is wrong. It was influential when I came into the LC.

CHORUS
I’m walking down the road
That leads to glory.
I’m pressing toward the mark
By enjoying God!
I don’t know so much,
Just to love Him.
I’m walking down the road,
Glory, here I come.

"I don't know so much, Just to love Him", this means, turn off your mind, shout, shout, shout until you are "enjoying God". Mindless conformity to the Hive results, and complete and utter dependence on the thoughts that are supplied from without. The "Just" part is code for "don't do anything else". This would have been given during the Witness Lee message series, which was then turned into song and disseminated. It was mind control.

And notice that the "love Him" is always stressed, but the "love thy neighbour" is always ignored! Yet the second part was given by Jesus as equivalent to the first! You see the "Just" cuts off everything else, even scriptural command. "Just to love Him" is coded LC-speak - just do this, and don't do anything else.

VERSE 1
With the brothers and the sisters,
We enjoy Him day by day.
It’s so simple and easy,
Our worries flee away.
Now we’re growing together,
As one big family,
Abiding in the joy of the Lord.

"It's so simple and easy". Same thing - Just call, call, call Jesus' name. Don't do anything else. Get yourself into an altered state by a kind of sing-song group mantra. "Blah-blah-blah-BLAAAHH!!" (Ayyyeemeeeennnn!!). So simple and easy, all your problems disappear. Unfortunately, not forever - as I discovered after several years of immersive practice - they are still there. But the "so simple and easy" avoids the sometimes difficult and painful work of healing, and lures one into a small, reflexive feedback loop that ultimately isn't transformational at all. Yes, it's simple and easy - unfortunately it's often completely ineffective.

VERSE 2
We enjoy You, Lord Jesus,
In our experience.
We’re getting to know You—
It’s making us leap and dance.
Just eating and drinking,
It’s what we do the best,
Delighting in the love of the Lord.

"Just eating and drinking". Same thing. The all-inclusive Golden Pill. Again, the "just" part is key: don't bother with the hungry person nearby, or one shivering with cold. No, that kind of consideration is dead works. You're in your mind, sister!! Just eat and drink, and enjoy!! I saw this in the FTTA, where a leading trainer actively shut down ideas on giving to those who couldn't repay. (But getting "good building material" from the nearby campus wasn't a dead work...)

VERSE 3
We’re walking, not running,
Cause we’re in the pasture land.
Our Shepherd is nearby,
We’re trusting in His hand.
He’s everything to us,
He’s all we ever need,
Resting in the peace of the Lord.

"He's everything to us" is the All-Inclusive Christ, who was processed for your enjoyment. Just call, call, call in every place. But, in the first chapters of Acts, the disciples were feeding the hungry, just like Jesus did to the hungry crowds who followed into the deserts. Paul goes into detail on this in 2 Corinthians 8 and 9: While you were poor, Jesus emptied Himself, and became poor for you. Now, you should follow, and become poor for the sake of others. Paul also quoted Jesus' word to the Ephesian elders, that it is better to give (to others) than to receive (the self).

But "He's all we ever need" cuts off the hungry, cold or sick nearby person from consideration. Just go into the meeting hall, open HWFMR, and open your mouth and make noise. "Just [selfishly] enjoy God", and selfishly congratulate yourself on arriving in the Good Land. But when this philosophy is questioned, the rage begins. This shows me what's beneath the supposed enjoyment.

Originally Posted by Trapped

The amount of time it takes to untangle LSM's wonky teachings and slimy tactics is prohibitive to....well....just about everyone.

You could flip this sentiment around, and say that there's so much wrong with Lee's teachings and subsequent LC practices that most anyone can point out something, most anywhere. Nobody has to take on DCP word-for-word. What I did above was pick out an egregious song (or footnote, or HWFMR outline), and point out numerous glaring issues which led directly to the unpleasant and unfulfilling experiences we remember. Anyone can do it.

Pointing out the existence of the holding chain is the first step to breaking its holding power. We were called to freedom, not slavery. In this case, the chain is actually a web, a carefully woven apparatus of interlocking teachings and social processes built up to sustain those teachings. But this carefully woven net is actually made of rather weak threads, any one of which can be pulled out by anyone, and held to light, as I did above. And the whole contraption begins to unravel... it's really not as impressive as it first may seem.

[aron]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I wanted to add that I can speak of this from experience. My Dad once preached the gospel to his brothers, my uncles. They received the gospel and got baptized some twenty to thirty years ago. It wasn't less than a year later that they all fell away.

The reason was one of my aunt in laws was some kind of relative in law of Witness Lee. She was privy to a lot of the immorality that was openly being practiced. Witnessing this kind of fruit being produced by a so-called Christian leader stumbled her and all my Uncles to stray away from the faith. To add insult to injury, they probably think they are saved because they believed in Jesus once due to the teachings on free grace.

Not to make my previous post any longer, I'm reposting this comment here. Another thing to do is point out the glaring disconnect between what was taught, which at least may be somewhat defensible, even if somewhat in error, and what was done, which was totally in error and completely indefensible. The behaviours seen in the Lee and Nee families are not supported by any scriptural interpretation, nor are they "covered" by them. Jesus taught, "If they don't repent, call it out publicly." No OT shadow or type removes this plain teaching. There is a principle in the whole Bible which is unwavering, and which applies to all, even the MOTA (assuming one exists). The money-grubbing and immoral deeds of the Nee and Lee clans are attested to by many.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Hey Curious Fellow - if you would like to blow off some additional steam without much need to dig into the muck of "LR's Sewage System Of Twisted Bible Truth" here's one rather small but I think strategic example of Witness Lee blunting (along with his complicit Editors & Polishers) a very simple command to the church from Paul the Apostle.

And they call this crap a Holy Word For Morning Revival?

Dear Lord above. There are some things I miss from The Lord's Recovery, but The Morning Revival is certainly a complete antithesis to those things. Dealing with Witness Lee's writings is bad enough, but there is so much fluff in the morning revival. You really have to shear away at it to see what they're actually trying to say, much like shearing sheep. A sheep that is ready for shearing looks massive, but then once you get all the fluff off, it's rather puny-looking by comparison.

I wasn't expecting to be asked/challenged in such a way, but I'd be happy to take a look and get back to you, PriestlyScribe.

[ACuriousFellow]

PriestlyScribe,

Here is my analysis of the Holy Word for Morning Revival (HWMR) sample you shared. It is by no means exhaustive, but I hope it helps in your endeavor to find multiple perspectives and insights on the matter.

Edit: Hold on... I'm having trouble uploading my document. Getting an error notice.

Edit 2: Ok, I uploaded it to my site.

thecuriousfellows.wordpress.com/2023/08/27/request-by-priestlyscribe/

I put a password on it: xyJJ98@lk

[Nell]

Before anyone posts again on this topic, or any other topic, read the original post. If what you want to say is off-topic, start a new one.

Nell
Admin/Moderator

[ACuriousFellow]

Oh. My apologies. I can resend it to him in a private message if you would like to delete the post, Nell.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

PriestlyScribe,

Here is my analysis of the Holy Word for Morning Revival (HWMR) sample you shared. It is by no means exhaustive, but I hope it helps in your endeavor to find multiple perspectives and insights on the matter.

Oh WOW, ACuriousFellow you did a TON of work on that HWMR sample and I cannot thank you enough. Sorry this may have gotten you in hot water with the Admin

Will be chewing on this analysis over the next day or so. In my world, your work looks pretty dang exhaustive.

Thanks again ACF

BTW: Hope this does not offend, but are you possibly related to Nigel Tomes?

P.S.