Prophecy - The End Times

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

A year ago we joined Christians from numerous churches at the football stadium. So much talk about REVIVAL! "Revival is coming, we can all feel it." The Pastor took time beforehand to provide the scriptural basis. He used a couple OT verses to support the belief that a "great revival would soon sweep over the land."

Huh? If true, would not the NT clearly state such a prophecy? But what does the scripture say? Apostle Paul clearly states that before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, THE APOSTASY must come. (2 Thess 2.3) The words in Greek are very specific. Not just "a falling away," like a backsliding, but "the apostasy," as a determinable phenomena.

Recently I posted how The Apostasy must come (2 Thess. 2.3) before the coming of our Lord Jesus. What would cause so many Christians to abandon the faith they once held dearly? The recent message by Nigel Tomes, "The Sifting: Difficult Words & Dropout Disciples" based on John 6, asked the same question. In the section, "Why do Disciples Depart & Christians De-convert?" Nigel made numerous explanations which are definitely valid considerations for The Apostasy which may soon confront all of us.

• Unresolved doubts about the Bible
• Unanswered questions about the Bible
• Unanswered prayer
• Unfulfilled promises

I believe that it behooves us to prepare for such a coming trial lest we be caught unprepared and deceived. In the course of my travels post-LC, I have spoken many truths from the Bible which have caused push back and even expulsion from my beloved brothers and sisters. Two common eschatological themes which seem to permeate contemporary Christians assemblies are:

• A great Revival is coming soon. Who has not sung Robin Mark's "Revival"?
• All Christians will be Raptured Pre-Trib.

I have personally and publicly been told, "I don't plan to be here during the Tribulation. The Book of Revelation after ch 3 is not for us. No need to worry, we will all be taken to heaven. etc."

Many Christians have concerns about this, yet are stifled by their leaders. What if these promises are not fulfilled. Are not the children of God being set up for The Apostasy, a tragedy indeed? Remember in the Gospel of John chapter 6 the Lord started out with 5,000 followers and ended with probably about Twelve, one of whom was a devil.

[Nell]

Ohio,
You are not wrong. Here are a few quotes regarding the apostasy. These speakers believe that the apostacy, the great falling away, is already underway. Here they make their case.
Nell

Before the Wrath
40:34
"Kevin: This brings us to a topic that is fiercely debated today. Since the origins of Christ’s message left with the Galileans has faded into history, Jesus’ statement regarding not knowing the day or the hour of his return has sparked heated debate and growing misconceptions.

Jack Hibbs: And the church has suffered from this. There are those who want to set dates. And yet the Bible teaches both from Jesus himself and from the apostles that no man knows the day or the hour.

J. D. Farag: It is my belief that these date setters, so called, have irreversibly damaged Bible prophesy.

Amir Tsarfaty: I grieve about the obsession about “when will it happen” as far as day and hour. When you start setting days and then it doesn’t happen, then you have millions or hundreds of thousands of disappointed people that, there are good chances that they will walk away from that faith because it wasn’t proved to be right.

Kevin: And the result is that Bible prophecy is systematically erased from Christianity all over the world.

Jan Markell: I’m just so stunned. I never thought I would see this in my lifetime. That the greatest news in the Bible is now marginalized jeopardized and is now coming under great criticism and skepticism. Then, you’ll talk to a pastor and he’ll say “well, you know what, I don’t want to be identified with the fringe.” There is a fringe. We don’t know the day or the hour and we don’t. Nobody’s got any special insight. Apparently only God the Father knows.

Amir Tsarfaty: Look. When you live in this world and suddenly someone tells you you’re about to be taken, physically, out of this world, then, knowing the date is like hitting the jackpot. However, it saddens me that, even though Jesus himself said, “no one knows the day and the hour”, why do we think that we need to know? It’s sends a clear message that we’re not supposed to deal with the actual date. We’re supposed to deal with the preparation for that date.

Kevin: In addition, with spreading misconceptions about Biblical prophecy, more church-going Christians, with each passing year, no longer want to hear about these so-called “fringe topics”. Most churches have clearly recognized this trend.

43:10
Jan Markell: If you ask a pastor, he will tell you—flat out—you know what? “The world is coming to an end” is not going to grow my church. The fact that even Jesus is coming back is not going to (grow my church.)

J. D. Farag: That is the number one reason, actually. And it’s really because pastors are, themselves, ignorant concerning Bible prophecy. They are also fearful. They are fearful that if they start teaching Bible prophecy—really they’re teaching the Bible—so how can you not teach the Bible, whole counsel of God, without also teaching prophecy by default? They’re (pastors) are fearful that it’s going to be too controversial.

Amir Tsarfaty: Christians always want to be accepted by the world. They are always on the run to embrace and adopt worldly views in order for people to like them. You sugarcoat everything. You become a motivational speaker rather than a pastor. Because, if you come to a non-believer and you pull out this rapture card, he’s going to run away from you. He’s going to think you’re crazy."

Watching the movie, Before the Wrath, will put this in context for you.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,
You are not wrong. Here are a few quotes regarding the apostasy. These speakers believe that the apostasy, the great falling away, is already underway. Here they make their case.
Nell

Before the Wrath
40:34
"Kevin: This brings us to a topic that is fiercely debated today. Since the origins of Christ’s message left with the Galileans has faded into history, Jesus’ statement regarding not knowing the day or the hour of his return has sparked heated debate and growing misconceptions.

Jack Hibbs: And the church has suffered from this. There are those who want to set dates. And yet the Bible teaches both from Jesus himself and from the apostles that no man knows the day or the hour.

J. D. Farag: It is my belief that these date setters, so called, have irreversibly damaged Bible prophesy.

Amir Tsarfaty: I grieve about the obsession about “when will it happen” as far as day and hour. When you start setting days and then it doesn’t happen, then you have millions or hundreds of thousands of disappointed people that, there are good chances that they will walk away from that faith because it wasn’t proved to be right.

Kevin: And the result is that Bible prophecy is systematically erased from Christianity all over the world.

I agree, Nell. Recently my wife was told by one Pastor, "we don't teach the book of Revelations because it's just too controversial."

Date-setting during this time is totally futile and distracting. Doing this should totally disqualify the ministry of these ones. The time will come, however, during Daniel's 70th week of years, that we will be able to know the month and the year of His Advent, though not the day or the hour. Both Daniel and Revelation continually mention the period of time of the last half of the week (Dan 9.27), a time, times, half a time (Rev 12.14; Dan 7.25, 12.7), 42 months (Rev 11.2; 13.15), and 1260 days (Rev 11.3; 12.6)

Until the great revelation of the Man of Lawlessness (2 Thess 2.3) takes place, every time prediction / prophecy is just a lie. After this time, it is God's mercy to inform us that He will limit the wrath, the persecution, and the judgments lest all mankind is destroyed. (Matt 24.22)

To make things clear here, the above only refers to the physical return of Jesus Christ to the earth. (Acts 1.11) This in no way applies to the many secret raptures spoken of throughout the Bible.

[OBW]

Question: Has there not been apostasy since the very writings that now comprise the NT?

I am not dismissing anything current, but didn't the theologians of prior centuries also see evidence that suggested the time was near?

What does deciding that we really do have the general time of the end times do for us? As the disciples of Christ, should we be living differently now than we should have been if we lived 1,500 years ago? Is the very revelation of anything about the ends times for the benefit of figuring it out, or to remind us that given the grand metaphorical narrative supplied, along with the extraordinary power of God to cause even not being as being, that we should always expect it could be today even if it does not happen within this third millennium?

It seems that the history of those who start to "figure things out" is not really so grand.

https://www.gotquestions.org/differe...nd-Coming.html

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Agathe

https://www.gotquestions.org/differe...nd-Coming.html

Thanks Agathe, please register and join the discussion.

The "Got Questions" website does often provide helpful answers to numerous Bible inquiries.

One huge source of confusion about this matter, which I find in nearly all contemporary writings, is that there will be a singular rapture for the entire church of God. This assumption causes endless difficulties among Christians. The Bible never says this, and in fact implies an array of raptures, based on our maturity, our watchfulness, our walk, our sanctity, our martyrdom, etc.

Because most current authors assume a singular rapture, instead of selective rapture, there are endless debates now waging among Christians. Our enemy uses this subject to divide the Church, as I recently experienced again. Reading the Bible again with this new perspective, changes everything for the believer.

Rapture is not a free gift of God, as forgiveness of sins and eternal life are for all those who believe, are born again of the Spirit of God. By simple faith in Jesus, the entire New Covenant is ours. We become children of God, members of His family, escape the lake of fire, etc. all based on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. But rapture, on the other hand, is a reward based on what we do after we receive the Lord as our Savior.

[Nell]

I recently heard someone on a youtube video say:

"We need to watch the news today with spiritual eyes."

This helped me to realize that what's happening today is not primarily about politics. Rather, it's about how politics can, and in some cases has, become a tool for deception. It was not my habit in the past to be persuaded on matters of truth based on politics.

This quote goes along with another that I appreciate "If you don't know the truth of a matter, don't form an opinion until you do know."

There are many, what can only be called, doctrines of demons out there today. This is another reason to rely on spiritual eyes, and reserving our opinions until the truth is revealed. By "truth" I'm referring to spiritual truth as well as factual truth.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Question: Has there not been apostasy since the very writings that now comprise the NT?

The question here is wrong. In 2 Thessalonians, while answering questions concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus, the Apostle Paul says The Advent will not occur until THE APOSTASY and THE REVELATION of the man of sin. It’s not a matter of whether or not an apostasy has ever occurred. According to the Book of Acts, Paul was accused of Apostasy from Moses. There is no other mention of “apostasy” in the Bible.

So why would Paul prophesy so specifically of THE coming apostasy if it was not a recognizable event for the church of God? This event is coupled with THE revelation of the Man of Lawlessness, aka the Revelation Beast, aka the coming Antichrist. Obviously Paul considered this to be also a recognizable event. Does anyone think these 2 events might somehow be related?

*The Apostasy* does seem to be quite different from *The Revival* which most Christians are looking forward to. If *The Rapture* occurs long before the prophesied events in the book of Revelation, which many are so sure will happen, then WHY would Paul warn us? Why mention “The Apostasy” to the Thessalonians if it would be such a commonplace event throughout church history?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

Question: Has there not been apostasy since the very writings that now comprise the NT?

I am not dismissing anything current, but didn't the theologians of prior centuries also see evidence that suggested the time was near?

What does deciding that we really do have the general time of the end times do for us? As the disciples of Christ, should we be living differently now than we should have been if we lived 1,500 years ago? Is the very revelation of anything about the ends times for the benefit of figuring it out, or to remind us that given the grand metaphorical narrative supplied, along with the extraordinary power of God to cause even not being as being, that we should always expect it could be today even if it does not happen within this third millennium?

It seems that the history of those who start to "figure things out" is not really so grand.

Ohio is correct. Further, the movie "Before the Wrath", the current thread topic, provides insight if not answers to your questions, which is the reason I raised the discussion. The movie and quotes I posted from the movie transcript are also highly recommended.

Nell