Merged Thread - Rewards and Punishment

[Raptor]

The Judgement Seat of Christ by D.M. Panton

But even a casual study of the Word of God reveals that a new horizon now opens on the redeemed soul. If life is by faith, reward is consequent on works done after faith. For Scripture regards each saved soul as a runner racing, an athlete wrestling, a warrior fighting, a farmer sowing, a mason building, a fugitive flying, a besieger storming; and all this strenuous intensity rests on a fundamental of revelation— “that he [God] is, and that he is a Rewarder” (Hebrews 11:6).

https://opbcbibletrust.files.wordpre...-of-christ.pdf

[Raptor]

In several passages, the Lord makes a distinction between believers, whether they are faithful or not, whether they are wise or not, etc., and mentions the consequences of their lives and actions. He uses parables and "characters" in the storylines, like servants, virgins or guests at a wedding. Some readers who do not believe the Lord will discipline believers, quickly and erroneosuly assign the status of "unbeliever" to those unfaithful servants, foolish virgins or guests without a wedding garment. Yet context, common sense, and other verses throughout the entire Bible clearly indicate they are in fact, true, genuine believers.

To eliminate any doubt, in a similar passage, the Lord mentions a servant who can be either faithful and wise OR wicked. Same servant, clearly a believer. On one hand, the faithful servant (a believer), who has a Master, (the Lord), is put in charge of all His possessions, (rewarded at the Lord´s coming back). And then He says, "But suppose that servant is wicked"....,The parable depicts the same servant, the same believer, (not an unbeliever) as an evil believer who dismisses the Lord´s coming, mistreats other believers and sins with worldly people. He is then disciplined severly at the Lord´s coming back. So we see a believer with two possible outcomes, depending on how he lives his life after being saved. One outcome is reward, the other discipline. This discipline is not losing salvation, not being cast into the lake of fire; the believer has been forgiven eternally and that cannot be revoked or lost. But the wicked believer is still responsible for individual sins that are not confessed, nor repented of, and he will be dealt with accordingly.

Matthew 24:45-51
"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the Master has put in charge of his household, to give the others their food at the proper time? 46Blessed is that servant whose Master finds him doing so when He returns. 47Truly I tell you, He will put him in charge of all His possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ 49And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The Master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. 51Then He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

It is very clear, yet still so many will read into the Word and change that status of the wicked servant to an unbeliever in order to conform it to their misunderstood concepts of going to heaven, eternal salvation, hell, lake of fire, reward, discipline, the judgement seat of Christ and the judgemnt of the great white throne.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

One outcome is reward, the other discipline. This discipline is not losing salvation, not being cast into the lake of fire; the believer has been forgiven eternally and that cannot be revoked or lost. But the wicked believer is still responsible for individual sins that are not confessed, nor repented of, and he will be dealt with accordingly.

Can you explain how believers can be forgiven of all their sins yet be “still responsible for sins not confessed or repented of and will be dealt with accordingly?”

[Nell]

Raptor,

Since this forum is a discussion of the Local Churches and teachings of Witness Lee, perhaps you can tie your remarks into what Witness Lee taught in the Matthew training, reduced to print in the "Life Study of Matthew".

Nell

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Some readers who do not believe the Lord will discipline believers, quickly and erroneously assign the status of "unbeliever" to those unfaithful servants, foolish virgins or guests without a wedding garment. Yet context, common sense, and other verses throughout the entire Bible clearly indicate they are in fact, true, genuine believers.

I find it rather ironic, my friend Raptor, that while you are claiming that some Christians "quickly and erroneously assign the status" of the subjects in Matthew 24, at the very same time you are quickly and erroneously assigning interpretations and attitudes that have never even crossed the minds of those of us who may hold to a different interpretation of these passages in Matthew. Many (most?) of us went through a lot of pain and suffering in leaving a place where our fellow Christian brothers and sisters were belittled, mocked and even accused of "misunderstood concepts of going to heaven, eternal salvation, hell, lake of fire, reward, discipline, the judgement seat of Christ and the judgment of the great white throne."

I think many, if not most, Christian scholars, authors and apologists believe that it is extremely important to properly identify the audience to whom the Lord Jesus was speaking. The audience that the Lord Jesus was addressing in these later chapters of Matthew was clearly the Jews, and specifically the "Scribes and Pharisees". To be sure, there are warnings and lessons which are applicable to those of us in the church age, but to make a strong claim that everything that was addressed in these passages apply to Christians here in the church age would be making the same mistake made by one Witness Lee, when he mockingly challenged his detractors "just how many life-giving Spirits are there?"
~

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Can you explain how believers can be forgiven of all their sins yet be “still responsible for sins not confessed or repented of and will be dealt with accordingly?”

A believer is forgiven eternally of all their sins and will not come into judgement, will not perish in the lake of fire, for any sin in his life, past, present, or future.

A believer's sins commited after being saved are still forgiven eternally, but in time they are still sins that have consequences in varying degrees, depending on the sin. Believers will face the consequences of those sins (but never eternal judgement), unless they confess/repent of those sins.

This same thought is reflected in other passages, such as what John wrote to saved believers in 1 John 9:

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The audience that the Lord Jesus was addressing in these later chapters of Matthew was clearly the Jews, and specifically the "Scribes and Pharisees".

Have you not read all the verses? This is another naysayer favorite, that is, "no, it does not apply to me,"no, that was written to Jews only." It makes no sense. Since you did not quote any verses, I will do it for you. All you need to do is go to verse 1 and 2 of chapter 24 where it clearly says Jesus was talking to His disciples. In verse 3 it specifically says the disciples asked Him privately. And His answer to the disciples is in verses 4 to 51, which includes the portion I referenced.

So no, Jesus was not addressing the Scribes and Pharisees (S&P) and they are not the audience specifically. Absoultely not. He was talking to His disciples. Do you see how easy it is if you actually read the Word? Do you need more proof? Ok, here: Just one chapter before, Jesus slams the S&P with eight "woes," calling them "hyprocrites" and "blind guides." Do you really think that suddenly now in chapter 24 the audience is the S&P and Jesus is now addressing them as His disciples? Nonsense. Is Jesus warning the S&P in verse 4 so they won´t be deceived at the second coming? They were already deceived, they did not even recognize Jesus in His first coming. Are the S&P according to verse 9 the ones persecuted and killed and hated because of the name of Jesus? No, that´s the disciples. Actually the S&P are the ones that perescuted, hated and killed the Lord Jesus and some of the disciples. Just read the Word, please, read the context, use common sense, use supporting passages.

So you also say the audience is the Jews. The audience is the disciples and a valid question is which disciples, only the 12? Maybe, because they asked Him privately, which could mean only the 12. Yet the paralell portion in Mark 13:3 specifically says that, "Peter, James, John, and Andrew" asked Him privately. Were they Jews? Yes, even all 12 were Jews, so yeah they are Jews. So what? The main point here is that they are BELIEVERS. They are disciples of Jesus, believers in Jesus; it does not matter if they are Jews or not.

The only portions that may refer more specifically to Jews at that time are, "not one stone here will be left on another; OR "let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains," "Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath", "But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short", and all the tribes of the earth will mourn." Context, context, context.

So the Lord is addressing disciples, believers, the only remaining question is: all believers through the church age or only those there with Him? Only 1st century believers? Only Jewish believers? The context obviously shows the audience is all believers until the end of the age. The Lord starts to conclude His entire answer in verse 42 and says "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come." You really think that is just for Jews? Non-jewish believers do not need to watch? Unbelieving Jews do not have Jesus as their Lord and will not watch for His coming back. And believing Jews are just believers, they are members of the Body, where there is no Jew and no Greek. They are BELIEVERS.

If you say the wicked servant only applies to Jews, then what happens to a non-jewish, evil believer when he dismisses the Lord´s coming, abuses the brothers, and eats and drinks with drunkards? When the Lord comes back, what happens to him? "Well done, good and faithful servant, enter the joy of your Lord? Nothing? No consequences? Why? Based on what? The Lord forgives non-jewish believers more than jewish ones?

Read the corresponding, parallel portions in Mark 13 and Luke 12 & 21. Are those portions also only addressed to Jews?, only to S&P? Jesus concludes this same section in Mark 13:37 saying, "And what I say to you, I SAY TO EVERYONE: KEEP WATCH!”

[UntoHim]

Raptor I'm afraid I'm going to ask you to take it down a notch. While I do admire your fervor, dismissing me as a "naysayer" is over-the-top my man. And you must understand that one naysaying your private interpretation does not equal one naysaying the Word of God. I'm sure you can agree with that.

Let me try to keep it simple. Who were the hypocrites the Lord Jesus was referring to in Matt 24:51?
-

[Trapped]

This discussion with Raptor already took place on the "Overcomer doctrine (merged thread)" thread. There was the same contention there about who the wicked servant is. At that time the discussion was over whether it is a straight-out unbeliever, or a professing believer (but a false believer, someone who professes belief but isn't really a believer.....i.e. servant in name but not in deed). Some concluded one way, some concluded the other.

It's clear from Matthew 24:3-4 that Jesus is speaking to His disciples. They ask Him a question in those verses, and everything after that in the chapter is Him responding to them. For the wicked servant, the question is just who the example of the wicked servant refers to or what type of person it refers to. Just because He's telling a story TO the disciples doesn't mean it must be about them.

I still personally have trouble with the concept of a genuinely saved, Spirit-filled believer being described as "beating fellow servants and eating/drinking with drunkards", but.....I know others say it's possible.....so I guess that's why there is a contention about this parable (is it a parable?)

Trapped

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Just because He's telling a story TO the disciples doesn't mean it must be about them.

TA DA! See, now that wasn't so hard after all! Thanks Trapped for bailing me out....again.
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[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

TA DA! See, now that wasn't so hard after all! Thanks Trapped for bailing me out....again.
-

Hahaha....well the truth is, I don't know the answer here. It is true that just because a story is told to someone doesn't mean it's about that someone, but it also doesn't mean it definitely isn't about them.

In this parable, I honestly don't know who it's about. I can see both sides - I can see why people would see the word servant and conclude it must be a believer, and I can see why people would see the word wicked and conclude it must not be a genuine believer. I've looked at it specifically and in larger context several times and have yet to feel totally comfortable one way or the other.

[UntoHim]

Keeping it simple #2: Why did the Lord Jesus call those dudes hypocrites in Matthew 24:51?
_

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Keeping it simple #2: Why did the Lord Jesus call those dudes hypocrites in Matthew 24:51?
_

Ahhhhh, thanks for asking this question, UntoHim. Made me look into it a little more.

Hypocrites in the Bible are typically described as saying one thing and doing another, or judging people while ignoring their own same behaviors. So if Jesus is "assigning him [the wicked servant] a place with the hypocrites", it means, ostensibly, he is one too....does it not?

This would lend weight to the "false believer" theory. Someone professing to know the Lord but living contrary to it - a hypocrite. I read through several commentaries on this verse and numerous describe the wicked servant as someone falsely claiming to be a Christian, but not actually one.

The thing that clinched it a bit more for me was that one of the commentaries referenced the parallel story in Luke 12. Where Matthew says "with the hypocrites", Luke 12:46 says "with the unbelievers". I think this bolsters even more the conclusion that the wicked servant is not a believer.

I still could be wrong

Trapped

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Luke 12:46 says "with the unbelievers". I think this bolsters even more the conclusion that the wicked servant is not a believer.

No, the greek word in Luke 12:46 is "apiston." 18 translations render it as "unbeliever", 17 other translations render it as "unfaifhtful." According to this, they could be unbelievers or unfaithful. So no, it´s not that clear. A few other translations are: "unbelieving", "who cannot be trusted", "not trustworhty", "infidelity." Trying to determine the identity of the wicked servant indirectly by looking to see who the "apiston" are is very weak. Just go directly to the description of the servant himself. Even believers that are unfaithful will be hurt by the second death. So no, not conclusive at all, no bolstering either.

You need to start with verses 45-47:
faithful and wise servant: a believer. A slave. Unbelievers are not described as slaves or servants of the Lord.
whom the Master: a believer. No unbeliever has Jesus as His Master (whether Jew or Gentile, 1st century or end of times).
has put in charge of his household: a believer. The Lord would never assign an unbeliever with responsibilities in His household.
Blessed is that servant: a believer. An unbeliever can never be described as a blessed servant of his Master, Jesus.
whose Master finds him doing so: a believer. The Lord does not evaluate the "service" of unbelievers to Him.
when He returns: a believer. This is the 2nd coming of Christ, reviewing His slave´s life.
Truly I tell you, He will put him in charge of all his possessions: a believer. Jesus rewards His faithful believers.

This is clearly in reference to a believer, who is serving the Lord, His Master, is faithful and wise in his service, and whom the Lord rewards at His second coming. The characteristic of this believer is that he is wise and faithful.

Then, it says starting in v. 48; "suppose that same servant is wicked," or "evil servant" or "if that servant is evil." It is the same servant, NOT another person. He is still a servant, it is the same believer. The difference is that he is "evil", he is not wise and faithful. Nowhere does it indicate that now it´s talking about an unbeliever or a different person. It is the same servant who now acts evily by
saying 'My master': still a believer: no unbeliever believes in Jesus, he is an unbeliever. And much less consider Him as his Master.
will be away a long time.’ : still a believer; an unbeliever does not have any concept of the Lord being away or coming back.
And he begins to beat his fellow servants: still a believer. Still a servant. An unbeliever does not have "fellow servants". He is mistreating other believers.
and to eat and drink with drunkards. still a believer. He´s hanging out with the wrong crowd, sinning.
The master: still a believer. An unbeliever does not have Jesus as His Master.
of that servant: still a believer. He is still the servant.
will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate: still a believer. An unbeliever has no expectation of the Lord´s second coming. The Lord will not come to evaluate the life and service of unbelievers, calling them slaves.

This is clearly in reference to a believer, who is not serving the Lord, His Master, he is wicked, and whom the Lord disciplines at His second coming. The characteristic of this believer is that he is evil.

These verses depict two possible scenarios of the life of a believer. There is only one servant with a Master being evaluated at the Lord´s second coming. The operative difference is: in one case the Lord depicts him as wise and faithful, serving His Master and in the other scenario as evil, disregarding the Lord´s coming, mistreating other believers and living sinfully with others.

BELIEVER: wise and faithful OR evil. You choose how you are going to live your life.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I still personally have trouble with the concept of a genuinely saved, Spirit-filled believer being described as "beating fellow servants and eating/drinking with drunkards", but.....I know others say it's possible.....so I guess that's why there is a contention about this parable (is it a parable?)

Believers still have the flesh. They are capable of commiting the same sins as unbelievers. Believers mistreat other believers all the time, everyday. The "beatings" can be physical, emotional, sexual, psychological, spiritual. It has happened throughout history and will continue to happen; have you not seen a website, called Local Church Discussions? It has many detailed reports of how some servants have been beating fellow servants for years. You should check it out.

There are thousands and thousands of genuine believers in all kinds of sinful situations. Have you not read in the Bible about how a believer was committing fornication with his stepmother? Have you not read how a believer´s heart was filled with Satan and how he conspired and lied to the Holy Spirit? The first one repented and was spared some severe discipline. The second did not repent and was punished directly by the Lord with death. (Both were believers, and no it does not matter whether they were Jew, or Pharisee or Gentile.)

Genuine believers can and do commit murder, lie, have idols, steal, commit fornication, cheat, love the world, are in adultery, use porn, get drunk, bribe, cover up, gamble, brake the laws, do not forgive others, use drugs, practice homosexuality, deny the Lord. Will all of that go undealt with by their Father, by the Judge of the living and the dead? Shall we make a mockery of His Righteousness and Kingdom by saying, "all is well, they are believers, they have been forgiven already." No, they need to confess and repent in this life. There is a judgment coming to believers: "we must all be revealed before the judgment seat of Christ, that each may receive back the things done through the body according to what he did, whether good or evil." 2 Cor. 5:10.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Raptor

No, the greek word in Luke 12:46 is "apiston." 18 translations render it as "unbeliever", 17 other translations render it as "unfaifhtful." According to this, they could be unbelievers or unfaithful. So no, it´s not that clear. A few other translations are: "unbelieving", "who cannot be trusted", "not trustworhty", "infidelity." Trying to determine the identity of the wicked servant indirectly by looking to see who the "apiston" are is very weak. Just go directly to the description of the servant himself. Even believers that are unfaithful will be hurt by the second death. So no, not conclusive at all, no bolstering either.

If we look at the Greek, apiston, and look at the 22 other times that word is used in the NT besides in Luke 12:46, it's referring to an unbeliever in every case except for doubting Thomas in John 20 who was "unbelieving" of the resurrection. I'm not referring to the translation of "unbeliever", but to the clear context in each of the cases which renders the translation of "unbeliever" as the accurate one.

https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_571.htm

If apiston did mean a wicked genuine believer in Matthew 24, it would be a stark departure from how it is used in the rest of the NT.

Still definitely admitting I could be wrong here, but this is what I see.

Trapped

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Raptor

so many will read into the Word and change that status of the wicked servant to an unbeliever in order to conform it to their misunderstood concepts of going to heaven, eternal salvation, hell, lake of fire, reward, discipline, the judgement seat of Christ and the judgemnt of the great white throne.

They asked Jesus what are the signs, and Jesus tells them a few times in various ways & parables not to focus on the signs but focus on the responsibility at hand.

I don’t think this parable has any hidden meaning, it’s just contrasting two servants. One didn’t focus on the signs of the master coming back but focused on the responsibilities, the other did focus and knew the master delayed. Even in the following chapter he breaks out more parables in the same vain.

Jesus is saying, look guys.. don’t focus on the outward signs of my coming, it’s gonna come like a thief in the night. Focus on the task at hand, on the great commission, on the responsibilities I’m giving you and empowering you to accomplish by the Holy Spirit.

I would strongly argue that during my time in the recovery, the only reason I “pursued” the lord (read HWMR, “lords day”, go to trainings) was out of a focus and fear of God coming back. I was terrified of not being ready. To me, this is an example of “the wicked servant”, I didn’t care about the responsibilities the master left for me, I carried about not being left outside the feast. I used to joke that I’d start pursing once the alleged treaty with Israel was signed, because that was an indication god was coming. I think this is what Jesus is talking about.

Why would giving His disciples signs of his second coming benefit them? It wouldn’t, the parables make it clear why.

[UntoHim]

Keeping it simple #1: Who were the hypocrites the Lord Jesus was referring to in Matt 24:51?
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Keeping it simple #2: Why did the Lord Jesus call those dudes hypocrites in Matthew 24:51?
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[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Keeping it simple #1: Who were the hypocrites the Lord Jesus was referring to in Matt 24:51?
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Keeping it simple #2: Why did the Lord Jesus call those dudes hypocrites in Matthew 24:51?

Are you wanting someone to say the scribes and Pharisees specifically (as opposed to the general description of a hypocrite I gave earlier)? The ones Jesus repeatedly called hypocrites in the chapter prior?

[UntoHim]

You're giving me way too much credit, Trapped. My innocent questions (.) are not nearly as nuanced as you may think.

What I am wanting is a straight-forward answer to my simple questions. Questions can be one of the most important elements of argumentation. Our good friend Raptor is making an argument (a very good one, by the way) that certain characters in Matthew 24 are indeed genuine Christian believers. My (not so firm) contention is that they are indeed not genuine Christians. And my questions are my simple way of requesting that we probe a little deeper before we accept wholesale that every mention of "servant" or "slave" must necessarily refer to a genuine Christian believer.

I think he ball is in your court, Raptor. Please answer my questions when you get a chance.
-

[Trapped]

I know I'm not Raptor, but are you looking for "unbelievers"?

[Ohio]

Someone gave me Chuck Missler's book "The Kingdom, Power, and Glory, The Overcomer's Handbook." Using Ezekiel's vision of the Millennium Temple, Missler discusses a unique building outside the temple called the Gizrah. Using scripture, numerous references, maps, and diagrams, he questions whether this may be the location of the Outer Darkness mentioned thrice in Matthew.

It's an interesting and exploratory read. I understand that most here have not examined other scholarly eschatological writings beyond LSM.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Keeping it simple #1: Who were the hypocrites the Lord Jesus was referring to in Matt 24:51?
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Keeping it simple #2: Why did the Lord Jesus call those dudes hypocrites in Matthew 24:51?
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What version are you reading? Doesn’t say he called them hypocrites in ESV

[UntoHim]

and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
ESV

He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
NIV

and he will cut him in two and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
NASB

and shall cut him in two and appoint his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Darby

καὶ διχοτομήσει αὐτὸν καὶ τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ μετὰ τῶν ὑποκριτῶν θήσει· ἐκεῖ ἔσται ὁ κλαυθμὸς καὶ ὁ βρυγμὸς τῶν ὀδόντων
Textus Receptus

Keeping it simple #3: Was this "place" that the hypocrites were assigned or appointed temporary or permanent?
~

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Keeping it simple #3: Was this "place" that the hypocrites were assigned or appointed temporary or permanent?
~

Cannnnnnnnn you please just tell us your viewpoint rather than breadcrumbing it over the course of more than a week?

[UntoHim]

For the better part of a quarter of a century my "viewpoint" regarding rewards and punishment was wholly captivated by the teachings of Witness Lee. If Lee taught that servants, slaves and virgins represented true born-again believers, that is what I believed. If Lee taught that genuine Christians were going to be cut into pieces, and will be weeping and gnashing their teeth for 1,000 years, that is what I believed. The apostles themselves could have appeared in the flesh and told me "this is not what Jesus meant to convey in these parables" and I would have told them that they were "moo cows who are not able to understand the heavenly music!"

At some point, despite my hardened heart and confused mind, God had great mercy on me and convinced me that many of my viewpoints were not based upon the Word of God, but based in the person and work of a mere man. The convincing did not happen over night, but over a long period of time. At some point I realized that my viewpoint was more influenced by "the tradition of men rather than the Word of God" (cf: Mark 7:8) I also realized that to ignore the teachings and viewpoints of 2,000 years of Christian history was foolish at best, and actually very dangerous. I realized what had to be "recovered" was not the truth (as if God would have ever allowed his truth to be lost) but what needed to be recovered was my hardened heart and confused mind.

So what is my viewpoint? I'm not sure you really want to know my viewpoint. At the risk of sounding flippant, my viewpoint can be found in the orthodox teachings that have been passed down to Christians (and anyone else who cares to read them) over the passed 2,000 years. I do find it quite telling that in Revelation 22 the Lord Jesus proclaimed "My reward is with me" (vrs 12) and not "your punishment is with me". Nevertheless, there will be a day of reckoning. Too be sure, God will not be mocked - he will not be mocked by those who reject him - neither will he be mocked by those who believe but fall short. In the meantime, "Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."(vrs 11)
~

[Trapped]

Maybe viewpoint was the wrong word. I was just wondering what your answers to your questions were. I've been following along interested to hear where you were going with them, and it seemed like none of my genuine attempts at answering them were what you were looking for. If you don't want to round out your line of questioning, okay, fair enough.

Trapped

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Who were the hypocrites the Lord Jesus was referring to in Matt 24:51?

The hypocrites the Lord was referring to are unfaithful believers (Luke 12:46). They are believers that will be deemed as having been unfaithful to the Lord. Particularly the sense here in Matthew is unfaithful believers that have been acting hypocritically. This is also in context and contrasting the faithful and wise believer mentioned in verse 45.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Let me try to keep it simple. Who were the hypocrites the Lord Jesus was referring to in Matt 24:51? -

The hypocrites Jesus was speaking about Matt 24:51 were the ones that he repeatedly called "hypocrites" in the earlier chapters - the Scribes and Pharisees. Raptor now contends that the hypocrites are the unfaithful believers...but they have already been identified as "the wicked servant". The Lord Jesus is identifying the hypocrites as a being separate from the wicked servant, hence the need to "assign him a place" with the hypocrites.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Keeping it simple #2: Why did the Lord Jesus call those dudes hypocrites in Matthew 24:51?

They were called hypocrites not because they did not believe in the Lord Jesus, they were called hypocrites because they "neglected the weightier matters of the law" (Matt 23:23) They were called hypocrites because they did not practice what they preached. The hypocrites were not in the category of believers, but rather they were "Jews, who do have God’s law, and will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it." (Rom 2:12)

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Keeping it simple #3: Was this "place" that the hypocrites were assigned or appointed temporary or permanent?

This is a tough one. It could be temporary or it could be permanent. There are various passages that might indicate one or the other. Either way, it will not be a place where you want to end up! Better to just believe in the Lord Jesus today and do our best to be a "good and faithful servant" while we still have breath.
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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The hypocrites Jesus was speaking about Matt 24:51 were the ones that he repeatedly called "hypocrites" in the earlier chapters - the Scribes and Pharisees.

They were called hypocrites not because they did not believe in the Lord Jesus, they were called hypocrites because they "neglected the weightier matters of the law" (Matt 23:23) They were called hypocrites because they did not practice what they preached. The hypocrites were not in the category of believers, but rather they were "Jews, who do have God’s law, and will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it." (Rom 2:12)
-

UntoHim does make good points here. Jesus was particularly harsh with those Jewish leaders, Pharisees, scribes, who rejected Him as their Messiah, opposed His teachings, and prevented others from receiving Him. Jesus publicly berated them in their capital Jerusalem.

These ones did NOT believe in Him, hence they were not merely disciplined as evil servants, but were judged as "sons of Gehenna," that valley outside the holy city perpetually burning and prefiguring the lake of fire.

We were taught, of course, in the LC that these "wicked servants" were genuine born-again believers, albeit unfaithful, unwise, and drunk, but in the context of the scripture here, these wicked servants should refer collectively to those Jewish leaders who rejected their Messiah and had Him crucified by the Romans.

In many ways this teaching fits WL's narrative that all believers outside the Recovery were pitifully deficient and hopelessly divided, needing serious discipline by the Lord, whereas only those inside the Recovery could perhaps be considered faithful "overcomers."

[Raptor]

I have not read any good, scripturally based analysis here that proves the wicked servant is an unbeliever. The Lord would not call an unbeliever His servant and entrust Him with His household, and neither would an unbeliever call the Lord "My Master" and believe He is coming back. This is unscriptural, unfounded and silly. You cause the parable to be devoid of its meaning. The purpose of the parable is to teach believers about faithfulness.

Yet, I wonder what is the reason behind this inclination to alter the meaning of a simple parable that teaches faithfulness or the lack thereof, between the Master and His servants, the Lord and His believers. So rather than belabor the point now, maybe it´s good to consider that there might be a reason that runs deeper than theology or biblical interpretation.

The reason could be pain....scars....hurt; thus a resistance to these truths, particulary the "discipline aspect" as may befall believers, but because of the abusive way these truths have been used by some in the LR and the pain that causes. It is abusive when these guys use passages like this one and hammer you about 1,000 years in outer darkness and about not being an overcomer, yet associate it with "not being one with the ministry", not going to all the trainings and meetings, using non-standard LC attire, listening to non-LC music, growing beards, too much time with family, not serving enough, leaving the LC, going on vacation, having a TV, reading other christian authors, etc. etc., ad nauseam.

But don´t throw out the baby, ...just get rid of the dirty water. Years of hearing these kind of beatings do take a toll on anybody, they become a heavy burden and weigh you down. But the Lord is rich in grace and healing. He knows, He was the target of the same religious beatings and much worse. But He still admonishes us to be faithful to Him. We were bought with a price and He desires a faithful Bride. This parable is for the benefit, instruction and hope for believers. Though we should not desire bad things happening to people, it is good to know that justice will prevail in the house of God. Vengeance belongs to the Lord. Those unfaithful believers that have been beating others unjustly in all kinds of ways and those that have improperly "covered them" will have to give an account unless they confess and repent. They will be disciplined. Those that remain faithful will be richly rewarded.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I have not read any good, scripturally based analysis here that proves the wicked servant is an unbeliever. The Lord would not call an unbeliever His servant and entrust Him with His household ...

Have you read what the Lord said about Cyrus King of Persia?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you read what the Lord said about Cyrus King of Persia?

You mean the great king Cyrus, the believer in God, that Ezra 1:2-4 describes? Yes, I have. Have you?

"This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:

‘The LORD, the God of heaven, who has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, has appointed me to build a house for Him at Jerusalem in Judah.

3Whoever among you belongs to His people, may his God be with him, and may he go to Jerusalem in Judah and build the house of the LORD, the God of Israel; He is the God who is in Jerusalem. 4And let every survivor, wherever he lives, be assisted by the men of that region with silver, gold, goods, and livestock, along with a freewill offering for the house of God in Jerusalem.’ ”

[Raptor]

The Rod: Will God Spare It?: An Exhaustive Study of Temporary Punishment for Christians - Joey D. Faust

https://www.amazon.com/Rod-Exhaustiv...ot_top?ie=UTF8


An Exhaustive Study of Temporary Punishment for Christians at the Judgment Seat of Christ and During the Millennial Kingdom.

This 450 page book is filled with historical quotes and Bible exposition in relation to rewards for Christians at the Second Coming of Christ. This book covers 2000 years of Christian history, and establishes that there has never been an age of Christians that has feared God less than this age. This book reveals that the warnings to Christians are not in relation to the eternal kingdom; they are dealing with the future Millennial Kingdom of God. Christians may be temporarily punished for bad works after salvation, yet they will not lose their eternal security. This book also refutes the false teaching of Purgatory, showing that Purgatory is actually a perversion of the ancient Biblical truth concerning judgment. This book shows by the Bible, as well as history, that this doctrine of the Judgment Seat is basic, Fundamental Christianity.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

The Rod: Will God Spare It?: An Exhaustive Study of Temporary Punishment for Christians - Joey D. Faust

These truths are not at all popular with today's Christians. Most will not even take the time to examine the verses, preferring to readily dismiss them as addressing the unbelievers. Unfortunately, both the book, the author, and the publisher appear no longer available.

Personally I have recently been startled by Paul's specific answers to the Thessalonians in 2 Thess chapter 2 about the coming of our Lord. Whereas, so many churches continually expect some great coming "revival," Paul, however, speaks about a definite apostasy, a great falling away of the church, from the faith, which must precede His return. Paul also speaks of a powerful delusion, a great prevailing error system, for those who reject the love of the truth, and God will give these ones over to this great delusion to believe the lie. The apostasy refers to those who now embrace the faith, whereas the delusion applies to all those who reject the love of truth.

[UntoHim]

Here are some of the mixed reviews of this book:

Micah Thom
3.0 out of 5 stars Much good here but mixed with too much error . . .
Reviewed in the United States on February 20, 2009
Faust's hermeneutically unsound ideas about a "second death" for non-overcoming believers as well as their names being blotted out of the "book of life" caused me to decide to get rid of this book. He is not the first to get this aspect of the overcoming theory wrong. Faust obviously has no understanding of the original language's use of "litotes" in several key verses he uses to prove his errant teachings on the "second death" and the "book of life". This tome is okay for research only and NOT recommended for any overcomer's life application as it is full of re-hashed, fundamentalistic, fear-mongering, fire-n-brimstone ideals mixed in with -- and thus infecting the simple purity of the overcomer teachings! We need less fear here brother and more pure love for Christ, the firstborn of many brethren, who choose to suffer and thus co-reign with Him. Perfect love casts out fear . . .
----------------------------------------------------------
Denise Kuha
5.0 out of 5 stars Thought provoking and intelligent.
My husband and I read this over a year ago and we are STILL talking about it. It's scripture, plain and simple, presented logically, rationally, and supported with plenty of historically relevant, contextual voices weighing in on the teaching. If you've primarily focused on heaven and sort of not paid much attention to learning more about the millennial reign of Christ or the coming Judgment, then this will help you tremendously to not only put this life into far more rational perspective, but to take it much more seriously. And we are KJV, indy Baptist missionaries, as serious as you can get when it comes to the Bible! You'd think we would know it all, but the fact is that the impact of these scriptures on my own life has been transformative. I am so, so grateful to have stumbled upon this little book!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Adams
1.0 out of 5 stars Not a history of the doctrine, but an interpretation
What is disappointing about this book is that it is not a history of the doctrine of kingdom exclusion, but rather an interpretation of history that somehow supports Faust's theory about the end of the ages. It's also poorly written. First, the book is more an outline than a finished product. Second, Faust quotes so many authors, there's very little of his own thought in the book. His treatment of his source material is vulgar. If someone in history mentions the millennial kingdom, he simply assumes that person believed everything he presents in the book. Some of the people he cites were advocates of purgatory, a thing Faust regards as heresy. On that note, his chapter on purgatory is frankly imbecilic. None of his references are drawn from Catholic sources. That would be important, wouldn't it, if one were writing about someone else's religious beliefs? One wonders if Faust has any grasp of the doctrine of purgatory. Ironically, his principal objection to the Catholic doctrine is that purgatory is a "place." In the succeeding chapters, he then goes on to describe exactly where kingdom exclusion takes place.
Faust's approach is to present his own ideas in the guise of historical research. He does more of the first, and little of the second.
-----------------------------------------
ReconditeReader
4.0 out of 5 stars Eye Opening Subject Matter
Upon first hearing this doctrine of the Judgement Seat of Christ or Kingdom Doctrine, I was amazed and excited for how the Word of God came alive for me. Upon reading this book I was looking to learn more about the doctrine to fully understand what the Bible says about our accountability as Christians. There is such a wealth of information in this book and it was surprising to see how many quotes he had from Christian forefathers supporting his interpretation of scripture. The book was a bit cumbersome. It was not an easy read but more of a scholarly read for deep study or Pastors. I tried to share the book with family and it was not well received mostly because it was not concise and to the point, but rather focused much on details and evidence. So I liked the book and got valuable insights from it that will forever change my Christian walk, but I would love to see the author do a simpler version of the book that just outlines the doctrine and supports in with scripture.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jonathan
1.0 out of 5 stars Heretical teachings from a false teacher!
This book is full heretical doctrine. Joey uses a few proof text to reinterpret the whole bible and the doctrine of the judgment seat of Christ. Herb Evans has written great doctrinaly sound review of the heretical teachings of this book. The fruit of this teaching is destroying many churches and causing unnecessary confusion. Someone joined our church from Joey's church and tried to split our church over this false teaching. Please research Herb Evans reviews.

[Sons to Glory!]

From the reviews I read (not Amazon) they called the book controversial, because it supposedly sets up something of a "protestant purgatory." That is, Christians will be shamed for the shortcomings in their works and will be sent to a temporary place of punishment.

[Raptor]

Artificial Intelligence ChatGPT app is on the right track:

Q: "What happens at the Judgement Seat of Christ according to the Bible?

A: "The Judgment Seat of Christ, also known as the Bema Seat, is a term used to describe the judgment of believers that will take place after the rapture of the Church. The concept is found in several passages in the New Testament, including Romans 14:10-12, 2 Corinthians 5:10, and 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.
At the Judgment Seat of Christ, believers will give an account of their lives and service to God. The focus will be on the quality of their works, rather than the quantity. The Bible teaches that believers will be rewarded for their faithful service to God, and that some works will be burned up as wood, hay, and stubble, while others will endure as gold, silver, and precious stones.
This judgment is not to determine whether a person will go to heaven or hell, as that is based solely on faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Rather, it is a judgment of the believer's works and the rewards that they will receive in heaven.
The Bible does not provide many specific details about the Judgment Seat of Christ, but it is clear that it is a time of reckoning and reward for believers who have lived their lives for God."

[Ohio]

I see no wisdom whatsoever in posting this.

Of course, AI will initially present itself in the best "light" in order to win over, if possible, even the elect.

The time will soon be here, and I think sooner than later, when AI will give "breath" to the image of the beast and enable the image of the beast to even speak. AI will enable the image of the beast to know everyone who is of the beast, and who is not, who is a worshiper of the beast, and who is not, in order to send out agents of the beast to kill those who resist. (Revelation 13.15)

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

From the reviews I read (not Amazon) they called the book controversial, because it supposedly sets up something of a "protestant purgatory." That is, Christians will be shamed for the shortcomings in their works and will be sent to a temporary place of punishment.

Yeah, it´s so sad that people don´t understand.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Yeah, it´s so sad that people don´t understand.

You’re right, it is so very sad. We’re in for the shock of our lives.

Most of us Christians have been sold a bill of goods. Poster “BearBear” used to call it “easy-believism.” Sure, hard times are coming to this world, but we won’t be here. We’ll all be gone. Raptured. Like Pre-Trib style.

Recently I heard, at a more serious church that actually taught end-times teachings, that Psalm 83 proves this. Prolly got this from Chuck Missler. I’m still shaking my head. If you approach the Bible with an American prosperity mindset that “God has not appointed us to wrath,” then you can find all sorts of “escape” verses.

Sure, we’ll all be raptured in the “twinkling of an eye,” but when will that be? At the last trumpet. (I Cor 15.52). Now read in Revelation what all happens BEFORE the last trumpet. Hmmm …

This is why “THE Apostasy” in 2 Thess 2 caught my attention. This apostasy is not for unbelievers, but for the church. Why would many IN the church fall away and leave the faith (the actual meaning of apostasy), unless they were fooled about what is to come.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Recently I heard, at a more serious church that actually taught end-times teachings, that Psalm 83 proves this. Prolly got this from Chuck Missler. I’m still shaking my head. If you approach the Bible with an American prosperity mindset that “God has not appointed us to wrath,” then you can find all sorts of “escape” verses.

Chuck and wife Nancy, about 10 years ago, saw the matter of Christian rewards for works and wrote about this in their book, "The Kingdom, Power & Glory (the overcomer's handbook)." However, I don't think he ever came to see the matter of first-fruits and harvest.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Chuck and wife Nancy, about 10 years ago, saw the matter of Christian rewards for works and wrote about this in their book, "The Kingdom, Power & Glory (the overcomer's handbook)." However, I don't think he ever came to see the matter of first-fruits and harvest.

Beyond the many diverse versions of the Bible and numerous word-study aids, I really don't read others' books. It is unfortunate that most of those who frequent this forum reject any of WL's teachings not generally found in today's churches, whether they match the scripture or not. I do know some people who love Missler's videos and books, and apparently most of them are quite good.

I basically get turned off whenever I hear "Chuck Missler said ..." just as I did when I heard "WL said ..." or "Titus said ..." I definitely prefer the plain language of the New Testament. The OT can be supportive, of course, but the NT is our guide. When it comes to end time prophecy, the NT is like the pieces of an incomplete puzzle. No matter how well we can put these puzzle pieces together, there will always be questions about the "missing pieces."

[Raptor]

Tom Finley in his book "Worthy of the Kingdom" expounds on the use of the word "bema"

The Greek word bema is used of Christ’s Judgment Seat in Second Corinthians 5:10 and Romans 14:10. Some teachers have argued that this word, bema, was used in Greek literature as a reward seat for the judge viewing contestants in the Grecian athletic games. Therefore, they say this word carries the notion of honor and reward rather than justice or judgment. Thus, they conclude that at Christ’s Bema, He will simply reward and honor the victorious runners in the Christian race. Those who do not run so well will just not receive a (positive) reward according to this view.

However, the Scripture never once uses bema in the setting of an athletic contest with rewards. In Matthew 27:19 Pilate sat at the judgment seat. From there he decided the life or death fates of two men, Jesus and Barabbas. In Acts 18, Gallio heard charges of wrong against Paul while seated upon the bema (v. 12), and Sosthenes received a beating in front of it. In Acts 12:21, Herod delivered an address to the people from the judgment seat, but since he did not give God the glory, an angel of the Lord struck him at the bema so that he died. In Acts 25, Paul was brought before the bema (vs. 6, 10, 17) for judgment, with accusers bringing charges against him, trying to get him punished. Overall, Scripture references portray the bema as a place of examination and true judgment.

[Ohio]

Raptor, it's really outside the scope of this Discussion Forum to address diverse Christian books, unless, of course, they are introduced by one of our moderators.

But, on the other hand, we have examined against the word of God, so many of WL's teachings and found them wanting. Whether the "ground of locality," or "God's economy," or "the Recovery" teachings, etc. each has been examined and rejected because they fell short both of Biblical standards established in scripture and widely accepted Christian scholarship.

I think it's a good and needed discussion to compare WL's teachings on Christian discipline and judgment with the word of God. Doesn't I Peter 4.17 say, "For the time has come for judgment to begin in the house of God: and if it begins first with us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

Also, and quite fitting to LC members former and current, is the Lord's own words to the church at Laodicea, "Those whom I love, I rebuke and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent." - Revelation 3.19

[UntoHim]

To Raptor and all:

I have merged all the closely related threads. Let's all try to avoid starting a new thread that falls within the general theme of an existing thread.

Thanks!
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Tom Finley in his book "Worthy of the Kingdom" expounds on the use of the word "bema"

The Greek word bema is used of Christ’s Judgment Seat in Second Corinthians 5:10 and Romans 14:10. Some teachers have argued that this word, bema, was used in Greek literature as a reward seat for the judge viewing contestants in the Grecian athletic games. Therefore, they say this word carries the notion of honor and reward rather than justice or judgment. Thus, they conclude that at Christ’s Bema, He will simply reward and honor the victorious runners in the Christian race. Those who do not run so well will just not receive a (positive) reward according to this view.

However, the Scripture never once uses bema in the setting of an athletic contest with rewards. In Matthew 27:19 Pilate sat at the judgment seat. From there he decided the life or death fates of two men, Jesus and Barabbas. In Acts 18, Gallio heard charges of wrong against Paul while seated upon the bema (v. 12), and Sosthenes received a beating in front of it. In Acts 12:21, Herod delivered an address to the people from the judgment seat, but since he did not give God the glory, an angel of the Lord struck him at the bema so that he died. In Acts 25, Paul was brought before the bema (vs. 6, 10, 17) for judgment, with accusers bringing charges against him, trying to get him punished. Overall, Scripture references portray the bema as a place of examination and true judgment.

Thanks for pointing that out regarding the more severe judgment side of the meaning of "bema." I have been one who recently leaned more toward the Olympic game meaning of it, and I believe there is some merit to that notion in the word. However, it can't be denied that bema also references governmental judgment.

What we have looked at quite a lot on this forum, is the question of a thousand year punishment, as promoted by WL. The question has been asked, several times, if anyone can show that there will be 1,000 years of punishment for those whose works are totally burned up and who have not matured in Christ. To my knowledge, no one has been able to answer that question with anything solid, other than to say there is no specific scriptural support for that teaching. Is that still the consensus here?

[Raptor]

“Watch ye therefore, and PRAY always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape” (Luke 21:36).

"No more powerful lever can be imagined for overturning our natural sluggishness. Facts are more moving than a whole library of exhortation. For the coming judgment of believers is a revelation levelled specifically at the flesh in the believer, and therefore can never be popular: the very bitterness with which it is assailed is an extraordinarily subtle and convincing proof of its truth. Caleb and Joshua witnessed to the approaching Kingdom, and to the necessity for obedience as well as faith to enter it, at the peril of their lives (Numbers 14:10); and the Lord foretells that the servant who disqualifies for reward is also the servant whose intolerance starts persecution (Matthew 24:49). It is little wonder if those who belittle responsibility, themselves fail to achieve it."

The Judgment Seat of Christ
D.M. Panton

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

What we have looked at quite a lot on this forum, is the question of a thousand year punishment, as promoted by WL. The question has been asked, several times, if anyone can show that there will be 1,000 years of punishment for those whose works are totally burned up and who have not matured in Christ. To my knowledge, no one has been able to answer that question with anything solid, other than to say there is no specific scriptural support for that teaching. Is that still the consensus here?

It is.

Though, your question in my opinion highlights the entire issue that orbits the discussion of this thread. That issue being the significant emphasis in the Lords Recovery on this teaching. There isn’t a clear cut verse about this teaching, and it’s a teaching that doesn’t dictate one’s salvation. Yet the Lords Recovery consistently voices this teaching as truth. (A gathering group of Christian’s emphasizes a secondary teaching? Sounds like a denomination). To be blunt, because there is no clear scripture on this doctrine & because it doesn’t dictate salvation, everyone needs to determine the fruit this secondary teaching produces in their life.

Does it cause you to run to God in fear of being “left out” if so, what kind of love is that? Or does it cause you to run to God out of pure love and nothing else?

[Raptor]

In regard to the passage in 1 Corinthians 3, D. Martyn Lloyd Jones (1899-1981) writes:

"It is His love to us, and our relationship to Him, our fear, our dread, lest in any way we should grieve Him or disappoint Him. But I have to take it even a step beyond that. There is a fear that should govern all we are and all we do…The Apostle puts this to the Corinthians in the First Epistle chapter 3, beginning at verse 9: ‘For we are labourers together with God…let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon…If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy…’ Now there we are dealing with a different type of fear…Let us look at some other examples…in the Second Epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 5, at verse 9: ‘Wherefore we labour…For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ…Knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men…’…‘Knowing the terror of the Lord…’…All this, of course has nothing to do with our justification; this has nothing to do with our receiving salvation…‘he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire,’ This is a great mystery. I do not pretend to understand it…But the teaching seems to be clear…It does not mean that a man can fall from grace; but it does mean this – that a man who is saved can know ‘the terror of the Lord’…

It is God who appointed the two mountains – Mount Gerizim and Mount Ebal – in order to teach a vital lesson to the children of Israel…According to whether they obeyed Him or not they would have blessing or cursing. Our Lord taught this same truth, or not they would have blessing or cursing. Our Lord taught this same truth, we are to be examined when the Master comes. Some are going to be beaten with a few stripes, some with many stripes. In other parables also He teaches the same truth, for example, the parable of the Foolish Virgins, the parable of the Talents in Matthew 25….All were spoken to emphasize this idea of judgment and reward….

In 1 Corinthians chapter 3 it is made quite plain and explicit…The Scripture does not mean, of course, that by doing these things you earn your salvation. No! Salvation is entirely by grace, it is the free gift of God….We are all saved in exactly the same way, that is, by simple faith in the Lord Jesus Christ….But having made that abundantly clear, the Scripture goes on to say that there is to be an assessment of our Christian life and works, and that, though we are all equally saved, there is some kind of difference...though the man who built wood, hay and stubble remains justified by faith, he is going to suffer loss. How, we do not know…There is the element of punishment, or at any rate of deprivation, the few stripes, the many stripes, and the Apostle’s expression, ‘he shall suffer loss.’ We do not understand it fully…. The Apostle Paul himself…tells us that this truth was always present in his mind…it was because he knew ‘the terror of the Lord’ and that he would have to stand ‘before the judgment seat of Christ’ and give account…The ‘suffering of loss,’ to which the Apostle refers must be only temporary…”

D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Life in the Spirit (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1975), 78-80, 363-364, 370.

[Raptor]

"But among you, as is proper among the saints, there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk, or crude joking, which are out of character, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." Ephesians 5:3-5.

The warning and exclusion of kingdom inheritance is addressed to saints, to believers. It makes no sense and is unscriptural to say the loss of inheritance here is addressed to unbelievers, because:

• Paul is addressing saints and admonishing saints; the consequences of not heeding the admonishments therefore are for saints. You don´t warn a group of people with impending consequences pertaining to another group of people.
  
• The admonishments correspond to having a proper walk, which is works, a way of proper living for believers. Unbelievers cannot perform these works as a way to qualify and receive the inheritance in the kingdom. They are unbelievers. They need to believe and be justified by faith.
  
• The consquences for unbelievers is the lake of fire, not the loss of inheritance in the kingdom.
  
• The loss of inheritance in the kingdom does not mean loss of eternal salvation. This salvation is secured by the judicial redemption of Christ which satisfied all of God´s requirements for eternity. The loss of inheritance is exclusion from participation in the millenial kingdom on earth because of evil works; this is the kingdom the Lord prayed for, "let Your kingdom come, let Your will be done as in heaven so on earth."

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

"But among you, as is proper among the saints, there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk, or crude joking, which are out of character, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." Ephesians 5:3-5.

The warning and exclusion of kingdom inheritance is addressed to saints, to believers. It makes no sense and is unscriptural to say the loss of inheritance here is addressed to unbelievers, because:

• Paul is addressing saints and admonishing saints; the consequences of not heeding the admonishments therefore are for saints. You don´t warn a group of people with impending consequences pertaining to another group of people.
  
• The admonishments correspond to having a proper walk, which is works, a way of proper living for believers. Unbelievers cannot perform these works as a way to qualify and receive the inheritance in the kingdom. They are unbelievers. They need to believe and be justified by faith.
  
• The consquences for unbelievers is the lake of fire, not the loss of inheritance in the kingdom.
  
• The loss of inheritance in the kingdom does not mean loss of eternal salvation. This salvation is secured by the judicial redemption of Christ which satisfied all of God´s requirements for eternity. The loss of inheritance is exclusion from participation in the millenial kingdom on earth because of evil works; this is the kingdom the Lord prayed for, "let Your kingdom come, let Your will be done as in heaven so on earth."

Agreed. Maybe I'm missing something - doesn't everyone here agree there is accountability for believers with possible loss of reward? I thought the question was the severity of that, that is, not just a loss of reward, but 1000 years of punishment too (which WL advocated).

Please clarify bro.

[Raptor]

From Geo. H. Ramsay:

"There was a time when the great foundation doctrine of justification by faith had been all but obliterated from the minds of Christians, till Luther was raised up and commissioned by God to disinter and make known, and to expound and defend it with his life.

Similarly, the doctrine of responsibility and accountability of every redeemed soul to his Redeemer, naturally arising out of his redemption, has passed from the knowledge of the Church for the most part: certainly, in general, as a living and urgent power over the lives of disciples of Christ. And the future effect upon the believer of this present relationship to his Redeemer is completely ignored by most; namely, that, as a responsible agent of Christ, he must hand in an account of his stewardship before the Judgement Seat of his Lord; that from his Lord's lips he will receive the sentence due to him, be it good or bad, according as he has been faithful or unfaithful, obedient or disobedient, holy or sinful.

This is almost passed over in the teaching of the Church, and the mere thought of it is hateful to many. Nevertheless it is as clearly set forth in Scripture as is the doctrine of Justification by Faith, and it is intended to produce, and does produce, the ripened and steadfast and overcoming life of the disciple who watches and waits for the return of his Lord, that he may go out with joy to meet Him and be received by Him."

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Raptor, it's really outside the scope of this Discussion Forum to address diverse Christian books, unless, of course, they are introduced by one of our moderators.

UntoHim in post #36 continued the conversation about one of the books. (there are many points in Faust´s book that I don´t see in the Word, but he did compile many authors and quotes with good stuff).

BTW, Tom Finley who wrote "Worthy of the Kingdom," was in the LR.