Accepting and Receiving Believers in Christ

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by OBW

But he didn't stop there, he almost immediately said that we fulfill the righteousness of the law by walking according to the Spirit.

Amen brother, and to walk according to the Spirit you first need His indwelling presence - without which you cannot possibly hope to fulfill the righteousness of the Law.

....And that is no excuse. Christ came to heal the sick, and not for the 'righteous' Pharisees, who by their own estimation needed no physician - because they were the very best of all the theologians.

[Scribe]

There is self righteousness that masks itself as obedience. It is just disobedience dressed up in religion. True obedience of faith, first of all requires the heavenly vision! "I has not disobedient to the heavenly vision" Acts 26:19.

Scribe

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Scribe

There is self righteousness that masks itself as obedience. It is just disobedience dressed up in religion. True obedience of faith, first of all requires the heavenly vision! "I has not disobedient to the heavenly vision" Acts 26:19.

And with this twisted view of how real Christians get it right, true obedience is dismissed as "religion" (meaning the definition from Lee's lexicon) and is scorned. Instead you seek to find truth to set you free while declaring that you will not obey because it is just religion. Well, that "religion" is actually following the words of scripture. Your "superior" religion is not. I'm not sure what god you follow. Your god denies the words of scripture. He just wants people falling prostrate before him all day long. And your god wants you to write your own scripture — scripture with no real reference to what we know to be true scripture.

[Scribe]

Originally Posted by OBW

And with this twisted view of how real Christians get it right, true obedience is dismissed as "religion" (meaning the definition from Lee's lexicon) and is scorned. Instead you seek to find truth to set you free while declaring that you will not obey because it is just religion. Well, that "religion" is actually following the words of scripture. Your "superior" religion is not. I'm not sure what god you follow. Your god denies the words of scripture. He just wants people falling prostrate before him all day long. And your god wants you to write your own scripture — scripture with no real reference to what we know to be true scripture.

What did I say I would not obey? You say I do not obey. Sounds very much like the accuser of the brothers in my ears. Are you in obedience as you hurl out insults and accusations accusing me of disobedience?

"I was not disobedient to the heavely vision".

Scribe

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Scribe

What did I say I would not obey? You say I do not obey. Sounds very much like the accuser of the brothers in my ears. Are you in obedience as you hurl out insults and accusations accusing me of disobedience?

"I was not disobedient to the heavely vision".

Yes, you did mention one thing that you would obey. And you take those words as if they are tied to a command to ignore all other aspects of obedience.

Why do I say this? Because you belittle and despise those who obey in what you term to be "lesser things." But Jesus did not term them in that manner. He said that it was all to be obeyed. Yet you despise it if it is not something ethereal, like a "heavenly vision." You will obey that. But you are busy defining your reasons for not obeying the other things.

[Scribe]

Originally Posted by OBW

Yes, you did mention one thing that you would obey. And you take those words as if they are tied to a command to ignore all other aspects of obedience.

Why do I say this? Because you belittle and despise those who obey in what you term to be "lesser things." But Jesus did not term them in that manner. He said that it was all to be obeyed. Yet you despise it if it is not something ethereal, like a "heavenly vision." You will obey that. But you are busy defining your reasons for not obeying the other things.

There is no obedience to or in "lesser things" without full time obedience to and in the greater and first things.....Love the Lord with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself. To do this we must see the Lord beyond the power of our own heart and soul and strength and we must see Him in others as in ourselves. To do this requires the divine intervention of faith. To do this requires the revelation of His son in us in all things! I despise all spirits that teach an "obedience" that is not first of all and forever found in the heavenly vision of His appearings within and around.

Hey, it's good to dance with you Michael, in the steps of the faith of the obedient on this sabbath of the Jews.

We write in the name of Jesus Christ.

Scribe

[OBW]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Amen brother, and to walk according to the Spirit you first need His indwelling presence - without which you cannot possibly hope to fulfill the righteousness of the Law.

....And that is no excuse. Christ came to heal the sick, and not for the 'righteous' Pharisees, who by their own estimation needed no physician - because they were the very best of all the theologians.

And where do we get his indwelling presence? Do we have to do spiritual things for it? The answers I find in scripture are at two levels. First, there is the kind of indwelling that comes with belief. We receive the Holy Spirit at that time. The second is the kind that is linked to obedience. And in the kind of scenario that Paul describes in Romans 8, the obedience and indwelling occur together. Paul does not say to wait for indwelling that will enable you to do it. He effectively says to trust in the one who will enable you, agree that it is true, and step out to do it with the understanding that you have his aid for the job. It is not wait for it to fall on you. Neither is it simply do it and hope he eventually comes along and helps you out. It is step out in the assurance that He is helping you as you take that first step.

And as I have recently said in another place, if you are busy doing spiritual/mystical things without obedience you are not engaged in a Christian/scriptural endeavor. If you are seeking the truth to set you free so that you will then obey, you will not find the truth. If you are seeking to abide in Christ so that you can eventually obey, then you are not abiding. Read the verses. John 8, John 14, Romans 8. Read Peter. We have what is needed for godliness. If you seek something more before you act in obedience, then you are seeking something that is not of God. It may look like it is of God. It may be described in the terms of scripture. But it is not truly of God because He says that you only get there the other way around.

Don't think that this is old-hat to me. I am just coming to realize this. And I cannot say that I am succeeding at it in all ways. Far form it. But I see where 38 years of wrong thinking dies hard. That wrong thinking was put in my by the LRC. 14.5 years of it. But it didn't just go away over the next 23.5 years. I see in another post where you mention some LRC theology as being wrong. So I have a little idea that you are outside of that system. But even after all these years, that system is still lurking in me. How is it still lurking in you? I am not entirely sure that I see what I am now speaking about clearly enough to say it is obviously true. But it is looking more and more that way to me.

And hearing those old LRC phrases like "the 10 commandments were never intended to be obeyed" are just plain wrong. (You did not say that.) It is obvious that we are not, in ourselves, able to truly obey them. But we were given that yardstick for more than just to prove we could not. We were expected to try, fail, and repent to God. Then, after Jesus came, we were expected to believe into Christ and get the source of power to actually fulfill them. And a lot more. Like don't even look on another woman with lust (as an example that is stated clearly in scripture).

With so much power at our disposal to live God's righteousness, why do we continue to say we cannot and sit around in defeat, seeking after alternate sources of power? It is, in part, because snake oil salesmen have convinced us that we need the truth that sets us free first, then we will be able to obey. But scripture says otherwise. It says that if we obey, then the truth that sets us free is ours. Doing it the other way around is to search the scriptures to find God, but ignore God standing in front of you.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by OBW

And where do we get his indwelling presence? Do we have to do spiritual things for it? The answers I find in scripture are at two levels. First, there is the kind of indwelling that comes with belief. We receive the Holy Spirit at that time. The second is the kind that is linked to obedience. And in the kind of scenario that Paul describes in Romans 8, the obedience and indwelling occur together. Paul does not say to wait for indwelling that will enable you to do it. He effectively says to trust in the one who will enable you, agree that it is true, and step out to do it with the understanding that you have his aid for the job. It is not wait for it to fall on you. Neither is it simply do it and hope he eventually comes along and helps you out. It is step out in the assurance that He is helping you as you take that first step.

Amen! Yes, have assurance that He will give you what you need, when you need it. I have never suggested we ought not do works - I have stated however, that we are Saved not by works; but for works. Again, be doers of the Word, and not hearers only. At the same time, realize that Christ's command to His disciples upon leaving them was for them to wait in Jerusalem for that day of Pentecost, when they would be filled with the Holy Spirit and could then go forth and fulfill His commands with the Power of the Holy Spirit. They could not go out before hand, and Christ knew they could not. Therefore He asked them to wait for the coming of the Holy Spirit, poured out from on High by the The Father.

Originally Posted by OBW

And as I have recently said in another place, if you are busy doing spiritual/mystical things without obedience you are not engaged in a Christian/scriptural endeavor. If you are seeking the truth to set you free so that you will then obey, you will not find the truth.

Amen! Again, I agree. I have said that I have been distraught by the lack of Christian works within the LSM churches. There is no call to, say, aid the people of Haiti as they rebuild - all the while evangelizing them. Even the Bibles for America and Bibles for Canada program, which seem on the surface to be healthy Gospel preaching, really have a second purpose: To spread the work of LSM. The Bibles are free to those who receive them, but as LSM is the printer (as sole owner of Bibles for America), and since the 'local churches' pay for those bibles, really - this is again a matter of Mammon. Although the Gospel may be spread, one must question the motives of the heart when it is done is such a way as this. The Word gives life, and we do not need the words of man to add to it. But I digress.... No brother, in this I agree with you: It is wrong to teach that to sit back and "enjoy" is the sole purpose of the Christian life. Such Christians are of no use to the Lord, and He testifies to this in His Word to those in Laodicea.

Originally Posted by OBW

And hearing those old LRC phrases like "the 10 commandments were never intended to be obeyed" are just plain wrong. (You did not say that.) It is obvious that we are not, in ourselves, able to truly obey them. But we were given that yardstick for more than just to prove we could not. We were expected to try, fail, and repent to God. Then, after Jesus came, we were expected to believe into Christ and get the source of power to actually fulfill them. And a lot more. Like don't even look on another woman with lust (as an example that is stated clearly in scripture).

With so much power at our disposal to live God's righteousness, why do we continue to say we cannot and sit around in defeat, seeking after alternate sources of power? It is, in part, because snake oil salesmen have convinced us that we need the truth that sets us free first, then we will be able to obey. But scripture says otherwise. It says that if we obey, then the truth that sets us free is ours. Doing it the other way around is to search the scriptures to find God, but ignore God standing in front of you.

Brother, in Christ I love you - though I don't know you as a person in flesh and blood I know you by the passion you exhibit here. Please don't take anything I have written to you as a criticism. It would be wrong of me to criticize you, as you are a child of God no less than am I. And I too struggle - we all do; it is normal Christian living. If there is no struggle, as even Paul testified to (the things I do I do not want to do, and the things I want to do I do not do), then I cannot imagine that the life of Christ is there at all.

Brother, I amen 99% of what you say, my only concern (and perhaps I am wrong in my understanding of what you have written), is that you are placing the emphasis on the doing before the indwelling presence of God - which, if we truly have it, ought to be that which motivates us to do. A tree is known by it's fruit - and if we have Him in us; if the branch Abides in the vine, it ought to produce fruit. There are many we both know who produce no fruit, but who might talk a very good game. They certainly sound like they're really abiding, and certainly may act like it, but there is no blessing. We are given discernment in a certain measure - and the more time we spend with Him, in His Word, in His presence in prayer, the more discernment we may be given. With this discernment we might see that there is no evidence of the life of God in some. When we see this, we need to encourage them - and pray for them - and trust that God has put them where they are and you where you are for a purpose.

I think we have exhausted what can be said on this subject to eachother, I want only to leave you with one story from His Word which I've been considering:

Matthew 19:16-23 "Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

“Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven."

First, this man does not see Jesus for who He really is: The Son of God and God the Son, the Christ, the Messiah. He sees Him only as a good teacher. Many of the lost in religion see Him this way today. They do not know Him at all, although they believe they do because they might know a good deal about Him.

Second, this man asks Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life. He places the emphasis on his own doing. Why? Because he is looking for a pat on the back: He claims that he HAS kept all of the laws since his youth. Now, if that were really true - then surely the Lord need not have died on the cross for the sins of the World. This man says he overcame where everyone else on Earth (except perhaps Enoch, who was taken up bodily?) failed. Where Adam failed. Where Cain failed. Where Noah failed. Where Abraham failed. Where Jacob failed. Where the tribes of Israel failed. Where Peter failed. Where Paul failed. But this man testifies that he did not fail.

He is a fool, and Christ exposes him by stating that he must keep the commandments if he wants eternal life. That is why He said it; to expose him - not to teach us that we need to keep the commandments to inherit eternal life. I don't know of single Saved Christian or Observant Jew who could say that they can keep the commandments. It is why God gave us the Blood. To wash us clean. I need to turn to Him daily - hourly - with every word I write here. I need to ask, "Lord - keep this angry flesh of mine quiet - and cover me when I write. Lord, Your words, and not mine - please Lord!"

When the man asks what else he must do, Christ tells him. And now the man shows us his true condition: Even though he claims to love the Law, and to have ALWAYS obeyed it, when offered eternal life he shows that the price for it is too great for him. Christ does not offer to abide in Him because he kept the law, Christ tells him it isn't enough. There's more. "Give your life to Me.", is another way to say what He said. And ultimately, that's what we really need to do.

We need to renounce what we have for Christ; and we must never think that we need to qualify ourselves before He will equip us. He equips us, and by this we become qualified.

Worship, praise, and enjoying Him in our 'inner life' are normal, natural and healthy parts of our Christian living... but the proof of the reality of this inner life comes in the outward expression of His living in us. We do step out, and step forth, and share what He calls us to share. In the moment when we need to speak for Him, His Word (if we abide in it), will come forth. We can fulfill the Great Commission only through Him, and never apart from Him. He never intended us to fulfill it without Him - that's why the Father sent another helper.

If keeping the Law were enough, then Judaism would have it right and we Christians would all be wrong. We would have no hope.

Do not let the trials of your experience within LSM sour so much of your enjoyment that you would oppose all that they taught. They certainly got a lot of things wrong - but the greatest lies contain a good deal of truth too, brother. That's why the Enemy is so good at confusing us - he knows how to dose just enough of the healthy food with his poison.

I close in Christ, and I thank you for your fellowship.

In Him,

Ray

[OBW]

Ray,

Three comments.

First, we are mostly speaking the same thing in different ways. Due to the nature of the teachings that I feel compelled to speak against (to the extent that I see them as actually harmful) I do what many others do and highlight the parts they are missing. I ask those engaged in the discussion, or just reading it and considering in silence, to take a hard look at the portions that do not support what I see as an out-of-balance teaching at best, and even just plain wrong at worst.

Second, I have less concern about the mammon side of the Bibles for America thing. What I really see is a way to distribute Lee's erroneous footnotes to the unsuspecting that would never actually buy anything published by LSM. The result will be a few who get caught in their snare. I don't even care that they might then actually buy a lot of LSM materials. I care that they are getting too much error in what they will read from it.

And last, because of the lies and errors within the LRC teachings, along with the abusive, controlling nature of the leadership, starting back with Lee himself, I can only see a system of error that deserved to be refused (in Paul's terms). Lee did not qualify to be counted among the ones that the Corinthians could have been fighting over because he did way too much for his own belly. And he taught too much contrary the actual truth of the Bible. To the extent that he actually taught something right, it can be found elsewhere. To even suggest it as a reasonable source of truth is to also place a pack of lies into the meal and hope that the reader can tell the difference.

And one more item (now making it four), if the Law was all that it was, the Jews still weren't right. That is unless you are also including the sacrifices that were not only required when you failed, but expected because you were going to fail. If we are just talking about the Law in terms of doing the righteousness, then the Jews had no lock on it other than to say that within the covenant they had, they did finally (after having the idolatry knocked out of them during the exiles) understand that they were to keep trying, and that they were to keep sacrificing because they would fail. But Christianity is the replacement, the new covenant, because it changed it from do it — or more rightly, try to do it — fail and sacrifice, to believe, take on the writing of the law on your heart, set you mind/will on the Spirit and succeed because the Spirit will succeed in us as we step out in faith. If you think that I am saying that we are now just supposed to do it like a good Jew did without the benefit of something higher than ourselves to help is in it, then either you are misreading me or I am not making myself clear.

[TLFisher]

As I was reading in The Ground of the Church and the Service of the Body which was from 1957, Witness Lee essentially said unless a gross sin has been committed, we must receive all whom God has received.

Spoken in 1968 from The Practical Expression of the Church on pages 66-67, Witness Lee had this to say:

God's receiving is based upon Christ's receiving, and Christ's receiving is in accordance with our faith in Him. Whoever believes in Him, He will receive. Whoever receives Him, He will never reject. He said, "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37). Since coming to Him, beleiving in Him, receiving Him, is the only condition for Christ's receiving, so we must receive people upon the same basis with nothing added. As long as anyone believes in Christ our Lord, as long as he receives Him as his personal Savior, we must receive him with nothing else required. Regardless of how he may dissent in so many other things, as long as he is a real believer in the Lord, we have no choice but to receive him, for the Lord has received him. This is why the Apostle said, "Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God." We must receive whoever Christ has received. We must have such a proper receiving of all the saints that we may keep the proper unity; otherwise, we can never keep ourselves from being sectarian and causing such confusion and damage to the church life. To practice the church life by keeping the proper unity, such a general receiving is necessary. May the Lord have mercy upon us!

An amazing word by brother Lee in 1968. When we meet in the local churches today can the same words be a testimony of the practice? Unfortunately not! Many of us can name brothers who would not be welcome. Not due to a gross sin, but something far trivial.
When Brother Lee said, "we must receive him with nothing else required", today it is just the opposite. Something else is required. I've been to many local church meetings in anxiety wondering, "will I be escorted out? I'm a so-called opposer." What I do oppose is the absence in practicing receiving as in the ministry portion I've quoted.
Former elders wouldn't be welcome. Something else is required.
Brothers and sisters under unscriptural discpline. Something else is required.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Terry

As I was reading in The Ground of the Church and the Service of the Body which was from 1957, Witness Lee essentially said unless a gross sin has been committed, we must receive all whom God has received.

The problem here is that to Witness Lee, disagreeing with anything he teaches, with any practice that he establishes or approves of, or that his authority is absolute, permanent and final, IS A GROSS SIN. And this kind of attitude was not new to Lee when he came to America - there is ample evidence that this goes all the way back to Watchman Nee in Mainland China.

Spoken in 1968 from The Practical Expression of the Church on pages 66-67, Witness Lee had this to say:
God's receiving is based upon Christ's receiving, and Christ's receiving is in accordance with our faith in Him. Whoever believes in Him, He will receive. Whoever receives Him, He will never reject. He said, "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37)...

An amazing word by brother Lee in 1968.

Yes, an amazing word....but this is the problem, they are JUST words. This kind of "receiving" was rarely practiced, and when it was it was with a view to get the received one to become a follower of Witness Lee and the religion he invented. Once you were firmly ensconced within the confines of the LC, your "reception" was always based upon your reception of the person and work of Witness Lee. Admittedly, it did not look like this when we were on the inside looking out, but now, looking from the outside in, it is painfully obvious. Lee may have spoken like this in the 60s, but we now know that he did not practice this kind of receiving even back in the early days in Taiwan, even less after he established the Movement here in America.

Now, all these years later, what is the fruit of Witness Lee's kind of receiving? What is the attitude and actions of his most close and fervent followers? Do they receive other Christians in the manner described in Lee's words? No, they do not. They do not because Lee never did either. They are doing what Witness Lee did. It is the old tried and true "do what I do and not what I say".

Notice that this is one of the main characteristics of those churches which find themselves breaking away from the LSM/LC Movement - they find that they can only return to biblical Christianity when they begin to practice the biblical mandate to receive all those whom Christ receives. Of course this immediately puts them out of the good graces of the Local Church faithful. After all, other Christians have a different "flavor".

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Yes, an amazing word....but this is the problem, they are JUST words. This kind of "receiving" was rarely practiced, and when it was it was with a view to get the received one to become a follower of Witness Lee and the religion he invented. Once you were firmly ensconced within the confines of the LC, your "reception" was always based upon your reception of the person and work of Witness Lee. Admittedly, it did not look like this when we were on the inside looking out, but now, looking from the outside in, it is painfully obvious. Lee may have spoken like this in the 60s, but we now know that he did not practice this kind of receiving even back in the early days in Taiwan, even less after he established the Movement here in America.

Having spoken to current members in the local churches and former members in the local churches who were there in the 1960's. This very much how it was on the matter of receiving. Something changed along the way, the nature of receiving became more narrow than God's receiving.
Your post I see as a fair description how receiving in the local churches is today. If you don't see the vision of the ministry, receiving is comparable to the rich man/poor man as seen in the book of James. There is an attitude of "personal favoritism" if you do have the vision of the ministry.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

After all, other Christians have a different "flavor".

I know that "flavor" is an innuendo meant to belittle non-LSM Christianity. As Christinaity apart from the ministry is equated to religion. How do you know? Have you met with Christians in an assembly part from LSM publications? Of course, being raised in the recovery the local churches was the only Christian environment I knew.
Step outside LSM oriented Christian fellowship and you'll realize there are Christians just as zealous for the Lord as you saw in the local churches. UntoHim, you say a different flavor? Well brother, at the community church I meet with I can testify to a different flavor; humility, grace, and mercy just to name a few. Oddly enough being raised in the local churches I never knew what grace was or what it was to give grace. Not until one of the Saturday morning brother's breakfasts at the community church. "Other Christians have a different flavor"? Instead of receiving it as a belittling innuendo, I say thank you for this different flavor.
Thank you for being able to witness a dissenting church elder being blessed and prayed for.
Thank you for the brother who took me aside and helped me see the practical application of giving grace.