Helping Church Kids On The Forum

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Nell

I've never had a question as to whether God cares or not. I knew Him as a child and He seemed to always be with me. Always a presence. For a long time I didn't know this "presence" was Him, until he showed Himself to me. I realize that not all have my history. I think this is a good question to ask Him. "God how am I supposed to know that you care (about me)?" Ask questions. Tell Him what you think. If you're not sure about something you believe you've heard, talk with a trusted confidant. We need Him and we need each other.

Nell

I always wonder whether God cares. And it's not just me. "Where is God in suffering" is one of the most contested God questions out there, local church background or not. It's been a major point of loss of faith for many people. Anecdotally, I can think of several colleagues right off the bat.

Telling someone who clearly has felt like God doesn't care about them that He always seems to be with you..........is exactly the kind of response I worry about on this forum in response to hurting people who most definitely have not felt like God was always there with them. It just makes them feel like something is wrong with them, or that God really does have an issue with them. Telling someone who has reached the point that they don't think God is there, that they should ask God a question as if they have any hope He will answer, just causes them more frustration. I know none of us are trained therapists (I don't think), but there has to be understanding that people's experience with God can differ wildly from others, or else the forum won't help but a restricted few.

Respectfully,

Trapped

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I always wonder whether God cares. And it's not just me. "Where is God in suffering" is one of the most contested God questions out there, local church background or not. It's been a major point of loss of faith for many people. Anecdotally, I can think of several colleagues right off the bat.

Telling someone who clearly has felt like God doesn't care about them that He always seems to be with you..........is exactly the kind of response I worry about on this forum in response to hurting people who most definitely have not felt like God was always there with them. It just makes them feel like something is wrong with them, or that God really does have an issue with them. Telling someone who has reached the point that they don't think God is there, that they should ask God a question as if they have any hope He will answer, just causes them more frustration. I know none of us are trained therapists (I don't think), but there has to be understanding that people's experience with God can differ wildly from others, or else the forum won't help but a restricted few.

Respectfully,

Trapped

Originally Posted by Nell
... I realize that not all have my history. ...
Nell

Trapped,
I acknowledged that my history is not one that all have, but it is my history. My testimony. This is what I have and for this I am grateful to Him. I have some understanding of the experiences of others. Not enough, but some.

What should I do? My testimony is what I have. I'm sorry for the frustration and for invoking blame. This is certainly not my intention, and I apologize for what I have caused you. I just don't know what else to say. I understand that frustration and blame may be all that others feel. So what do we do? How can we help each other?

Nell

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have been thru some horrible trials, despairing of life itself, questioning everything and everyone, betrayed by those closest to me, but what literally preserved me thru it all, both before and after my salvation, was the conviction that Jesus is God, and the Bible was His Word.

It is also my belief that the absence of these convictions, ever declining in the world today, explain so much of what we read in the news. They have tremendous keeping power. I have never once questioned them.

That's the point of a hurting church kid though. They see this kind of post and go, (again, respectfully), "YOUR conviction doesn't mean anything to me. I need to know for ME why I should believe it is true that the Bible is God's Word."

We are quick to offer our personal beliefs and testimony of our beliefs, but that's not what church kids need. They need to be heard and understood and allowed to be where they are. Everyone being firm on the matter with no response even understanding where a church kid is coming from......then, like I said, this forum won't help but a restricted few.

I've done everything in my power to cling onto the belief in God and that the Bible is God's Word. I didn't want to be one of the many church kids who threw everything away, truth and lies, just because they left a place that lied about most of it. But for what church kids go through in leaving and trying to recover afterwards, trying to keep a grip on that ends up being exhausting and oftentimes painful. It's not enough.

I have discussed this type of thing with people in organizations who, in part, deal with victims of abuse in various settings, one of them sometimes being a church. They get it. They acknowledge the pain of losing everything when leaving a controlling group, and then the second layer of pain from the silence of a God who seems to like to hide Himself a little too well afterwards.

I remember a couple years ago a hurting church kid came to the forum and she wrote an intro post which indicated she felt completely abandoned and ignored and overlooked, and we all responded in ways that......completely ignored and overlooked her. She was regaled with stories of Philip Lee and Daystar and people's personal beliefs, but no one acknowledged or validated her. We (me included, at first) didn't hear her. Once again, that's my worry.

Trapped

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Nell

Trapped,
I acknowledged that my history is not one that all have, but it is my history. My testimony. This is what I have and for this I am grateful to Him. I have some understanding of the experiences of others. Not enough, but some.

What should I do? My testimony is what I have. I'm sorry for the frustration and for invoking blame. This is certainly not my intention, and I apologize for what I have caused you. I just don't know what else to say. I understand that frustration and blame may be all that others feel. So what do we do? How can we help each other?

Nell

I think the short version is that when someone comes telling you they lack A, what they need is not a story of how much you are rolling in A.

"I cannot pay my bills, I lost everything and I don't know how to afford my next rent check."

"Oh, I have always had plenty of money. That has never waivered for me. My experience of having money with me all this time is xyz....."

That's what I mean.

Your testimony is your testimony, and I've heard a little of it on the forum over the years and it is an awesome one. But church kids don't usually need to hear people's testimony. It doesn't help them. In fact, they've probably spent most of their life hearing testimonies and wondering why what other people are proclaiming was never true for them. A testimony, etc, is not the response they need, as illustrated with the example above. At a certain point it may be, but we need to simply be sensitive to when it's not.

Trapped

Originally Posted by Trapped

I think the short version is that when someone comes telling you they lack A, what they need is not a story of how much you are rolling in A.

Trapped

Trapped,

I’m 100% with you on this one, and I’m not a church kid. However, probably over the last year or so, this particular issue has been at the front of my mind, on daily bases. I have prayed about it, many times on how to deal with people who are very close to me, who are extremely hurt, damaged, and for the most part won’t even ask for help. When I left the local church, I went through a time when I was like those disciples who said to Jesus, “….. wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them,..”, because that’s how much I didn’t see people where they are, that’s how much I couldn’t understand why people just can’t believe or trust. It took a long while for the Lord to make me realize that “For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them” or “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

I came to realization through the work of the Holy Spirit, that it is very easy to proclaim and condemn, to use my experience as some template for others, but it’s very difficult to see a person who was just robbed, beat up, abandoned, and thrown in the ditch. It’s during that time, when I need to hear them crying, need to stop, get off my high horse and love them! It’s is when they need me to shut up, and put some ointment on, show them love and compassion that they never got at the local church level, never got from their own family, parents, mothers and fathers. There will be time for me to share real Christ that they were led away from in exchange for another, or like all church kids never even heard about. Maybe after some wounds heal and some bruises disappear, they will come and ask you why you did that for them, when nobody cared, most walked by and looked the other way, some said it’s “your own fault”, then I’ll have a chance to speak! After all, when God walked this earth and someone came asking for help or anything, He didn’t give them a lecture (in most cases), about his experience and what He was going through, He did what they’ve asked for, which in some cases led Him to share about who He was.

[manna-man]

Good afternoon Trapped,

All we can do is be there for someone who is hurting if they want us there. We can encourage them by just being there. Gods timing isn't always our timing. Sometimes we need to be hung out to dry feeling lonely. It is in those times we start to ask those questions like Why God?
It is in those times our hearts are being prepared...
We may not see but God is working all things for our good.
We may not like the lot we've been dealt but such is life.

If we really want to know we will ask and watch.

God sees everything. He's not an instant satisfaction drug.
He's God.
He knows
And He will respond when these individuals are ready and not a moment sooner.

We empathize with them, heck we are sometimes one of them.
There are no magic words but we can stand in the gap for them and pray and encourage. With or without them depending on the situation.

mho...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

That's the point of a hurting church kid though. They see this kind of post and go, (again, respectfully), "YOUR conviction doesn't mean anything to me. I need to know for ME why I should believe it is true that the Bible is God's Word."

We are quick to offer our personal beliefs and testimony of our beliefs, but that's not what church kids need. They need to be heard and understood and allowed to be where they are. Everyone being firm on the matter with no response even understanding where a church kid is coming from......then, like I said, this forum won't help but a restricted few.

I've done everything in my power to cling onto the belief in God and that the Bible is God's Word. I didn't want to be one of the many church kids who threw everything away, truth and lies, just because they left a place that lied about most of it. But for what church kids go through in leaving and trying to recover afterwards, trying to keep a grip on that ends up being exhausting and oftentimes painful. It's not enough.

I have discussed this type of thing with people in organizations who, in part, deal with victims of abuse in various settings, one of them sometimes being a church. They get it. They acknowledge the pain of losing everything when leaving a controlling group, and then the second layer of pain from the silence of a God who seems to like to hide Himself a little too well afterwards.

I remember a couple years ago a hurting church kid came to the forum and she wrote an intro post which indicated she felt completely abandoned and ignored and overlooked, and we all responded in ways that......completely ignored and overlooked her. She was regaled with stories of Philip Lee and Daystar and people's personal beliefs, but no one acknowledged or validated her. We (me included, at first) didn't hear her. Once again, that's my worry.

Trapped

My convictions provided me with a pathway to healing, sanity, salvation during times of seeking and crisis. Many others have also. What became my anchor may not be yours. The benefit of an open forum is to hopefully provide some empathy and encouragement from multiple directions. None of us are professional therapists, but we can do our best, and God has often blessed this place of care. But you are right, many do not receive good counsel here.

I have literally had hundreds of followup PM's from other posters based on some helpful reply I had made. Perhaps you have too. I was a Christian before the LC, whereas you were raised in that system. Your path is admittedly more difficult, but you can thus speak to other "church kids" like I could never do. I don't see this as conflicting, but as complementary "helps." (I Cor 12.28)

Many leaving the LC's have decided that "secular" counseling is the best path for them. Great. Often a wise therapist has been recommended on the forum. I have mentioned a Christian counselor whose videos had benefited my wife and I when we exited. Personally my goal is that all those who leave the LC could have a healthy relationship with the Savior Jesus. That's my prayer. Sure, I am "biased." Some may not want this when they first post, but perhaps after some healing, their faith is rekindled. Many have reported this over the years.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Trapped,

I’m 100% with you on this one, and I’m not a church kid. However, probably over the last year or so, this particular issue has been at the front of my mind, on daily bases. I have prayed about it, many times on how to deal with people who are very close to me, who are extremely hurt, damaged, and for the most part won’t even ask for help. When I left the local church, I went through a time when I was like those disciples who said to Jesus, “….. wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them,..”, because that’s how much I didn’t see people where they are, that’s how much I couldn’t understand why people just can’t believe or trust. It took a long while for the Lord to make me realize that “For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them” or “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

I came to realization through the work of the Holy Spirit, that it is very easy to proclaim and condemn, to use my experience as some template for others, but it’s very difficult to see a person who was just robbed, beat up, abandoned, and thrown in the ditch. It’s during that time, when I need to hear them crying, need to stop, get off my high horse and love them! It’s is when they need me to shut up, and put some ointment on, show them love and compassion that they never got at the local church level, never got from their own family, parents, mothers and fathers. There will be time for me to share real Christ that they were led away from in exchange for another, or like all church kids never even heard about. Maybe after some wounds heal and some bruises disappear, they will come and ask you why you did that for them, when nobody cared, most walked by and looked the other way, some said it’s “your own fault”, then I’ll have a chance to speak! After all, when God walked this earth and someone came asking for help or anything, He didn’t give them a lecture (in most cases), about his experience and what He was going through, He did what they’ve asked for, which in some cases led Him to share about who He was.

Unregistered,

What a touching story, and thank you for "hearing" me as I make my pleas. I 100% agree with what you said in return.

I certainly do not mean to accuse anyone. I still find myself wanting to respond with consuming fires to people who express hurt, and so any finger pointing that it might seem I'm doing in this thread has the fingers pointing at me too.

Your allusion to the good Samaritan is exactly what I had in mind.

Luke 10:33-37
33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.
34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him.
35 The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

I didn't even notice this until I re-read the verses just now but the record doesn't even show that the Samaritan said anything to the wounded traveler!

He:
1) went TO him
2) bandaged his wounds
3) poured oil and wine
4) lifted him up and put him on his donkey
5) brought him to an inn
6) took care of him
7) paid for his additional care

I don't see any relating of experiences of the positive trips he had made on the road himself without being beaten. He saw the wounds and the needs and tended to them. No Scripture quoting. No expecting the victim to be able to do anything himself. No blame for why the guy was walking on the road alone and vulnerable. Just tending to every point of pain he could see.

And Jesus tells this story in response to the law expert asking "who is my neighbor" (in other words, "who is it I am supposed to love"). THIS BEHAVIOR IS INEXTRICABLY TIED TO HOW TO CARRY OUT ONE OF THE GREATEST COMMANDMENTS.

When Jesus interacted with needy people, He oftentimes addressed both their spiritual needs AND their immediate human needs. He didn't just point people to God. He stopped their bleeding, He fed the famished, He healed the crippled, He restored their sight, etc.... To only interact about the spiritual but to neglect the physical/human would have left them feeling unseen and insignificant.

None of this is necessarily easy. Even if we are not the most skilled at direct care, at a minimum we can be aware of what NOT to do and the things we should avoid that would only hurt more.

Thank you so much for posting; very encouraging.

Trapped

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Good afternoon Trapped,

All we can do is be there for someone who is hurting if they want us there. We can encourage them by just being there. Gods timing isn't always our timing. Sometimes we need to be hung out to dry feeling lonely. It is in those times we start to ask those questions like Why God?
It is in those times our hearts are being prepared...
We may not see but God is working all things for our good.
We may not like the lot we've been dealt but such is life.

If we really want to know we will ask and watch.

God sees everything. He's not an instant satisfaction drug.
He's God.
He knows
And He will respond when these individuals are ready and not a moment sooner.

We empathize with them, heck we are sometimes one of them.
There are no magic words but we can stand in the gap for them and pray and encourage. With or without them depending on the situation.

mho...

I would caution against telling anyone that they "need to be hung out to dry". For someone coming from a toxic environment in the local church where they are told they are less than worthless worms, that is not what they need to hear.

I would also caution against trite phrases like 'God is working all things for our good". Also smacks of an abusive parent hitting their child and saying, "it's for your good". Remember, these are people who are likely traumatized. To tell them "it's for your good" is nothing but a sharp spear right in their heart.

I'm not speaking against God or the Bible here. I'm not saying "it's not true that God works all things for our good". What I'm saying is, WAIT ON THOSE THINGS when people first come here. In our personal desire to put a nice neat, tidy bow on things, we often roll out these kinds of biblical phrases as if it solves or explains anything. But that doesn't help a victim; rather, it makes ourselves feel better about what the victim is going through, and in so doing we do them a gigantic disservice. That kind of phrase just becomes like the many "mind-stopping" phrases that were used on them in the local church.

And again, I would not say "when they are ready", as it implies some deficit or shortcoming on their part. Somehow they are not "ready". Well, when someone is laying in the deepest part of a dark pit, they have lost everything, their world has blown apart, and they are desperate for love and care and comfort, telling them "they are not ready" is ........ sorry, but it's laughable. What on earth WORSE stuff would need to happen to make them more "ready" for God to care for them? This is the kind of stuff that in normal situations might be appropriate, but for THIS kind of situation, is not appropriate. That is my entire point.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that we can be there and encourage and empathize, and stand in the gap, and yes, let them know they are not alone, etc...

Trapped

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

My convictions provided me with a pathway to healing, sanity, salvation during times of seeking and crisis. Many others have also. What became my anchor may not be yours. The benefit of an open forum is to hopefully provide some empathy and encouragement from multiple directions. None of us are professional therapists, but we can do our best, and God has often blessed this place of care. But you are right, many do not receive good counsel here.

I have literally had hundreds of followup PM's from other posters based on some helpful reply I had made. Perhaps you have too. I was a Christian before the LC, whereas you were raised in that system. Your path is admittedly more difficult, but you can thus speak to other "church kids" like I could never do. I don't see this as conflicting, but as complementary "helps." (I Cor 12.28)

Many leaving the LC's have decided that "secular" counseling is the best path for them. Great. Often a wise therapist has been recommended on the forum. I have mentioned a Christian counselor whose videos had benefited my wife and I when we exited. Personally my goal is that all those who leave the LC could have a healthy relationship with the Savior Jesus. That's my prayer. Sure, I am "biased." Some may not want this when they first post, but perhaps after some healing, their faith is rekindled. Many have reported this over the years.

Yes, I have had many PMs from people in the way you describe (maybe not hundreds since my time on the forum has not been anywhere near as long as yours!)

For some, the response you describe IS what they need. I'm not saying NEVER respond with Christian convictions. I'm saying, for example, we need to find out where people even are first. I've seen situations where someone new posts, and they get a slew of responses dripping with Christian experiences, and yet.....no one bothered to find out if the person is a Christian or wants to hear anything like that. Even after some said they don't really want to hear it, they still had to fend off additional responses of that type.

In our rush to bring them straight to a healed relationship with Jesus, we bypass the necessary steps first. That was what I was trying to communicate with my example of sexual assault versus a healthy marriage relationship in a prior post. No one would bring an SA victim and try to get them to jump into a marriage without a lot of care and understanding and healing from their traumatizing experience first. For many, hearing any spiritual words would be a trigger that makes them totally shut down. I couldn't even stand the name "Jesus" for quite some time myself just because it was used as a weapon in the local church! (I'm okay with it now).

For example, if a young person was in the care of a serving one or a parent, and that serving one or parent was in the car drivers' seat repeating "Jesusssss.....Jesusssss.....Jesusssss" over and over again under their breath.....that did not bode well for the young person. "Jesus" was a point of anxiety for a young person, and it would not be appropriate to try to talk about or push Jesus before knowing whether they can handle it, etc...

Or for example, in the local church, Jesus is the one God loves, and God doesn't actually love us, He just loves the Jesus in us. So Jesus becomes like this do-gooder older sibling our Father loves to the neglect of the rest of us. This isn't true, of course, but the toxic local church teachings produce all kinds of conclusions like this in young people. The local church poisons the main sources of healing, and we need to be sensitive to that.

To use the Luke 10 Samaritan example, the Samaritan did not get the traveler up on his feet to walk himself, etc.... before extensive healing had occurred.

I would agree the goal is a healthy relationship with Jesus, and would agree that some healing would need to occur.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

For some, the response you describe IS what they need. I'm not saying NEVER respond with Christian convictions. I'm saying, for example, we need to find out where people even are first. I've seen situations where someone new posts, and they get a slew of responses dripping with Christian experiences, and yet.....no one bothered to find out if the person is a Christian or wants to hear anything like that. Even after some said they don't really want to hear it, they still had to fend off additional responses of that type.

Great points Trapped.

If I could generalize for a moment. Starting with the Bereans Forum (2005-08) and now the LCD, I have noticed a change in the visitors in the Intro section. From 2005-2015? the posters were older, mostly Christians who joined the LC years ago as young adults. More recently, however, there were more "church kids." That's just my impression, of course, and it was often easier for me to relate to contemporaries than church kids.

And therein was part of the difficulty. I began to realize that many church kids had little more than superficial religious performance, perhaps their survival technique in a legalistic and perhaps abusive environment. For example, even though I thought I knew the leader in OKC, what I read shocked me.

To my sorrow, I have found that many church kids have no solid foundation of faith. In this regard that system is a total failure. As a parent, we were instructed to trust the serving ones. I have often said that my biggest failure was trusting LC leaders too much.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Great points Trapped.

If I could generalize for a moment. Starting with the Bereans Forum (2005-08) and now the LCD, I have noticed a change in the visitors in the Intro section. From 2005-2015? the posters were older, mostly Christians who joined the LC years ago as young adults. More recently, however, there were more "church kids." That's just my impression, of course, and it was often easier for me to relate to contemporaries than church kids.

And therein was part of the difficulty. I began to realize that many church kids had little more than superficial religious performance, perhaps their survival technique in a legalistic and perhaps abusive environment. For example, even though I thought I knew the leader in OKC, what I read shocked me.

To my sorrow, I have found that many church kids have no solid foundation of faith. In this regard that system is a total failure. As a parent, we were instructed to trust the serving ones. I have often said that my biggest failure was trusting LC leaders too much.

That's really interesting. I never thought about the shift in demographics, although it makes sense.

Absolutely, the way to make it through the LC as a church kid is to perform. Adults responded to the performance, sadly. The right words, the right tone, the right inflection, the right affect. It's a self-reinforcing problem.

To me the entire problem of the local church is the ministry. Witness Lee. LSM. Lots of healthy things could be allowed to grow and flourish if LSM/Lee was taken away. They are the unhealthy poison that continues to wreak havoc. They demand trust and allegiance.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

To me the entire problem of the local church is the ministry. Witness Lee. LSM. Lots of healthy things could be allowed to grow and flourish if LSM/Lee was taken away. They are the unhealthy poison that continues to wreak havoc. They demand trust and allegiance.

The "ministry" has reproduced itself over time. I was in the Midwest LC's. Our LC would be moving forward over time in some direction which all of us felt was pleasing to the Lord and beneficial to the congregation. One little comment from TC in Cleveland could abruptly end that. Period. End of discussion. Get over it brothers and sisters. Like now. Remember: No opinions in the Body of Christ.

The entire concept of "local" church was a fraud. A ruse. Basic bait and switch. It appealed to many Christians who were frustrated by denominational hierarchies. The "we are not a denomination" was and is a ruse, reinforced by political spin and wordsmithing.

Not every brother in the Recovery was a hard-core zealot. The few spin-offs which have "succeeded" post-Recovery (Toronto, Hilliard, Scottsdale, Westminster, Moses Lake, etc.) needed independently-minded leaders who were willing to cut all ties with that system and its "ministry."

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Absolutely, the way to make it through the LC as a church kid is to perform. Adults responded to the performance, sadly. The right words, the right tone, the right inflection, the right affect. It's a self-reinforcing problem..

I’m a church Kid, I come from a line of people who are as devoted as they come. I have since left the Recovery, but I haven’t left Jesus. It’s eye opening and liberating to hear in small group testimonies of God being salvation to those who are caught up in pornography, fornication, addiction. Eye opening because during my time in the Recovery, these things were hush hush. Briefly spoken of at retreats, but in a way that implied no one in our midst is involved, that this doesn’t happen here. So you act, you pretend be an “overcomer”. You say “amen brother/sister” on Sunday morning when you got tanked Saturday night. You close your eyes tighter as you share an outline point in hopes that will vindicate you from having premarital sex with a someone across the room a few days ago. You perform to be accepted by your social group, because it’s all you’ve known, and you know there are certain things this group “doesn’t do”.

When you graduate college, you decide to attend the full time training. You give your testimony in front of the entire student body and try to explain that God led you here. Deep down, you know that in order to be accepted amongst your group you need to attend.

You eventually graduate or leave the full time training, and come back home. You realize it isn’t what you want, but rather attending meetings is what your supposed to do. So, you attend, meanwhile you pick up some vice on the side to cope with your unhappiness…maybe it’s drinking or drugs or career or working out excessively. For a few years you keep up the act, hiding your sin from the church because “that doesn’t happen here”. Eventually though, you get burned out and stop meeting altogether. That standard demanded of the Recovery is too high, and the price for not meeting it is too expensive on your soul. So you abandon it all together and are labeled as a dormant one.

It’s easy to see why those brought up in this system just act. It’s like anyone who’s been in a toxic or abusive relationship. You act to survive.

[Trapped]

I didn't actually know you are a church kid, Zezima! Glad you are on the forum.

Right, in the local church all those "base human problems" are treated as if the problem is tied to the person struggling with it, as if the problem is because they chose to be "outside" God's move, etc.....and the understanding is that we don't have those problems because WE are in the right place.

I can only imagine the double layer of shame that puts on a person in the local church - the shame of the initial struggle, compounded by the shame the local church puts on them that they are somehow so deformed as to be struggling with that while being in the very place they are told they should never have a problem with it!

I could never go to the FTT. Faking it in all the meetings was bad enough. There was no way I was going to flush two years of my life down the toilet just to fake 24/7 and pay to do so.

The dumb thing is, all these things you are talking about - the addictions, the vices, etc.... they are simply very well known coping mechanisms. Well understood by those who are trained in trauma protocol or toxic systems or abusive environments. They are not a death sentence. They are not outside the reach of the blood of Christ. Some common human problems are treated in the local church as if they are SO abhorrent as to essentially be "the unforgivable sin". Lots of church kids are miserable and yet......"Trapped"!

Trapped

Another former church kid speaks out about this group.

https://youtu.be/_1aldMyIsK0