Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!

[UntoHim]

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

If this statement wasn't so sad, it would be funny. The magnitude of the gravity of this statement is such that I believe it is time to warn all current members of the Local Church of Witness Lee to seriously consider leaving the movement, and find a healthy place to worship the Lord and fellowship with genuine believers. I would especially encourage all young people and new believers to take steps to extract themselves as soon as possible. With Ron Kangas at the helm, and others just like him there in Anaheim, things are likely to get a lot worse. Without true repentance, personality cults like the Local Church tend to get worse over time. May God have mercy.
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[Trapped]

His speaking doesn't even line up with their own MOTA doctrine. The MOTA is (according to them) the person in each age that releases the vision of that age. For Ron to describe Lee as "a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out" as if he was somehow unique makes no sense, because that's the very definition of MOTA to begin with, and has historically been used to ascribe MOTA status in previous ages to the people that Ron has now newly put down in the quote.

Now Ron is creating, like, a "pinnacle-MOTA". How can anyone within the movement not see this is idolatry and totally contrary to Scripture?

When/where was this spoken anyway, do we know?

[UntoHim]

"Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution"
Well, thank God that John Nelson Darby didn't have Brother Nee's constitution - If he did the world probably wouldn't have had any of JND's fine translations into English, French and German, all from the original languages by a genuine scholar.

"Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution"
Well, we should be doubly thankful to God for this one! Instead of having led the greatest revival/renaissance the Christian church has ever seen, Luther might of been out there hiring and firing elders and co-workers at his personal whim, selling meeting halls and church land to pay off his personal debts, allowing his porn addicted, alcoholic son sexually to assault sisters in his ministry offices, teaching all sorts of heresy, and claiming he was the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth. Wow...maybe we all dodged a bullet on that one!
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[Freedom]

The whole thing is just so absurd. First of all it doesn't even make sense for Ron to be comparing any of those that he names with Nee or Lee. They were all alive at different points in history. If they were all peers it might make more sense, but then again, the LC is really the only group out there doing these kinds of comparisons.

Secondly, if Ron wants to talk about "constitution" then he better look first at Nee and Lee. Last time I checked, Luther, Westley, etc weren't the ones who tried getting church members involved in a pharmaceutical company or motorhome investment scam.

[Trapped]

I kinda just wonder if this is their way of trying to increase the fervor of devotion. I just don't recall this level of slavering over Nee and Lee in previous years. Is this all they know to do to try to stay relevant and keep members?

Or is the devil just having a field day keeping a group of Christians starry-eyed over idols rather than the living God?

[byHismercy]

It won't be long before they require all members to purchase a new "I IDOLIZE Witness Lee" button to be worn in all public venues and at home (except in the shower). Every six weeks, a new button with a similar Lee slogan will be available for members on lsm.org

Quarterly available for purchase will be the Lee t-shirts. Blue or black only, of course. Receipt for your purchase will be emailed to you at home. Now go drink your koolaid. Lols

[Raptor]

In one video (I wish I had the reference), RK asks a rhetorical question, talking about WL, saying, "can we honor him too much"? And maybe the same video, I remember..."we owe everything to him".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I kinda just wonder if this is their way of trying to increase the fervor of devotion. I just don't recall this level of slavering over Nee and Lee in previous years. Is this all they know to do to try to stay relevant and keep members?

Or is the devil just having a field day keeping a group of Christians starry-eyed over idols rather than the living God?

He gets worse by the year. 10 years from now we will look back and comment that Ron Kangas almost seemed "sane" compared to "now" in 2030.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

In one video (I wish I had the reference), RK asks a rhetorical question, talking about WL, saying, "can we honor him too much"? And maybe the same video, I remember..."we owe everything to him".

Raptor, I definitely remember that comment, not in a video, but in the book, A Response to Recent Accusations, by RK and KR, released at the Winter Training 1989.

After the "storm" of the late 80's, when Ingalls and the other Anaheim elders resigned, this self-published book was written in response to Ingalls et.al. "16 Points." I remembered WL, TC, and other once-respected leaders calling these "16 Points" a "kill shot" taken at WL.

Chapter 9 of the book, which I still have, is titled "The Accusation Concerning Brother WL's Being Exalted and Honored Above What is Written." This book was absolutely brainwashing propaganda lies to keep the faithful from seeking the truth about what really was happening.


It was TC who said to JI, "We owe everything to WL," as recorded in the book Speaking The Truth In Love.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

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When was this statement made?

[UntoHim]

Here is a larger video clip in which this cultic statement was made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRJhTQXT2_g

This message was probably given sometime between the Winter Training (end of Dec through beginning of Jan 2020) and when the virus shut everything down. When this message was given is not nearly as important as what is said by Ron Kangas.
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[Nell]

Who talks like this? Why does does this group need to credit Lee for any work of the Holy Spirit that may have been present?

Minoru Chen embodies the “spirit of Witness Lee”, and now Mr. Kangas anoints him MVP.

Consider Billy Graham. He was a humble servant who spent his life preaching the gospel. His lifetime of evangelism spoke for itself. He raised a son who doesn’t speak without sharing the gospel. Franklin Graham is boots on the ground bringing physical healing and hope to people all over the world.

Does anyone talk about Billy Graham or his son like this? I would imagine Franklin would be repulsed if such talk began about his father. These men of God were/are true servants. Witness Lee was a talker.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

Who talks like this? Why does does this group need to credit Lee for any work of the Holy Spirit that may have been present?

Minoru Chen embodies the “spirit of Witness Lee”, and now Mr. Kangas anoints him MVP.

Consider Billy Graham. He was a humble servant who spent his life preaching the gospel. His lifetime of evangelism spoke for itself. He raised a son who doesn’t speak without sharing the gospel. Franklin Graham is boots on the ground bringing physical healing and hope to people all over the world.

Does anyone talk about Billy Graham or his son like this? I would imagine Franklin would be repulsed if such talk began about his father. These men of God were/are true servants. Wetness Lee was a talker.

Nell

Good points! Love does not exalt itself. However, there are other Christian groups that do this. For instance, the 7 Day Adventist really revere Ellen White in what seems a similar manner. (although I think some in the SDA church are put off somewhat by this) And of course, there's the RCC.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Here is a larger video clip in which this cultic statement was made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRJhTQXT2_g

This message was probably given sometime between the Winter Training (end of Dec through beginning of Jan 2020) and when the virus shut everything down. When this message was given is not nearly as important as what is said by Ron Kangas.
-

Listened to the whole clip. From the shorter clip I didn't understand what Ron meant when he said "where do you have to go in church history to find a match". What match? Match of what?

After listening to the longer clip, I still don't know what he means.

How he manages to hold the hand of previous ministers of the age while simultaneously biting those hands is truly something to watch. He says he is so thankful he was not in the age of the Luther MOTA or Darby MOTA but is so thankful he is in the Nee/Lee MOTA age. This is in the same very speech that he proclaims he is not exalting Nee/Lee.

What purpose does it serve to pit MOTAs against each other, and how do people not see he's doing that VERY THING he just said he's not doing?!


edit: I know MOTA is unbiblical. My point is that even inherently, assuming it's true, their own talk is nonsensical.

[byHismercy]

I poked fun at them earlier, but in reality, I wonder when they stand up before Jesus if they could utter such bold, heretical declarations. Cannot see them telling the Lord, 'I owe EVERYTHING to Witness Lee! We all do!'. I know the Lord will have them straightened out pretty quick. Maybe then they will recognize their idolatry, their pride, their vanity. Hopefully they can see it before then, and repent. Where is their recognition of the value of the gift of salvation? Don't they get it? Don't they know we owe everything.....our salvation....our eternal home....to Jesus? How can they make such wicked statements? Everything?? To WL?? EVERYTHING we see, and everything we don't came out from Him....

John 1:3
All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made.

I apologise for being so simplistic in my reasoning here, brothers and sisters. I guess He made me simple......I just don't understand how so many can hear these statements and not walk away.

[byHismercy]

I'm listening to this clip now. None of this garbage is taken from scripture.

[Trapped]

I'd personally like to see the outline Ron is reading from. This clip makes it look like the outline itself is about Witness Lee.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I apologise for being so simplistic in my reasoning here, brothers and sisters. I guess He made me simple......I just don't understand how so many can hear these statements and not walk away.

Well, that’s the thing, isn’t it? The gospel is SIMPLE...so all who hear can believe and be saved. I was raised on the ABC steps in Vacation Bible School: Ask, Believe, Confess. I understood this as a young child, 5 years old.

“Jesus paid it all. All to him I owe. Sin had left a crimson stain, he washed me white as snow.”

Nell

[byHismercy]

Amen Nell. I wonder how many unregenerated people, adults or children would listen to RK rant on and on about their superior MOTA, their superior ministry, their superior group and then be softened, turned, led to repent, believe, and receive the Lord. My guess is zero. What it is that they are sowing, I don't know.

[Nell]

My message to the Local Church faithful, and all of us, is a prayer that helps keep me grounded: “Lord, please don’t let me be deceived, and Lord, I’ll do whatever you want me to do.”

If any Christian cannot bring themselves to pray this prayer, why not? This “we only care for life” teaching can, and likely has, brought some into deception. It would be better to teach “we only care for truth”...which is the opposite of deception. Truth exposes the deceiver who first appeared in the garden. “Life”, in this context, is subjective and can be shaped to mean just about anything. Truth is absolute.

It seems that those in authority in the Local Church have taken a radical turn. Because of the Internet, they have lost the ability they once had, to control information flowing to the membership. If you, even remotely, question what you’re hearing, pray the prayer. It’s a righteous prayer. What do you have to lose? No one can tell you not to pray this way. “Lord, please don’t let me be deceived.”

Nell

[UntoHim]

Arguably, the two most influential men among the "Blended Brothers" are Minoru Chen and Ron Kangas. Of course there are other brothers who have varying degrees of influence in the movement, but these two fellows have clearly positioned themselves to be "first among equals".

Now one of these guys has declared that: "I am full of Witness Lee's spirit!" and the other one has proclaimed:
"Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution!"

I believe that these two statements show that the Local Church of Witness Lee has evolved into a Christian personality cult. I know some around these parts get offended by this word "cult", and I don't use it lightly, however at some point one must face the reality of the situation. I believe that the leaders of the LC movement are putting the members, especially the younger people and new believers, in a clear and present danger. When the leaders are proclaiming that they are "full of the spirit" of their dead spiritual guru, and that he was the direct and sole continuation of the scripture writing apostles, it is time for some to sound the alarm.

Thankfully the Local Church of Witness Lee no longer has a corner of the market on information control. The members have instant access with their phones, tablets and computers. Finally, I would like to second the motion of Nell's post: "It would be better to teach “we only care for truth”...which is the opposite of deception."
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[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution"
Well, thank God that John Nelson Darby didn't have Brother Nee's constitution - If he did the world probably wouldn't have had any of JND's fine translations into English, French and German, all from the original languages by a genuine scholar.

Lee coming a century later had opportunity to learn from Darby's mistakes with Mueller & Newton. Nothing was learned since history was clearly repeated.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I'm listening to this clip now. None of this garbage is taken from scripture.

My serving brother back in the early 80's told us teenage brothers that Brother Lee is the modern day Apostle Paul. That's what we were taught.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Lee coming a century later had opportunity to learn from Darby's mistakes with Mueller & Newton. Nothing was learned since history was clearly repeated.

I suppose we need to ask whether these were actually "mistakes."

In the mid 1840's, there were clearly several of the Brethren whose maturity and fruitfulness became most evident. Darby, of course. The scholarly B.W. Newton was the primary minister in Plymouth, by far the largest Brethren assembly, and the reason the entire movement became known as the "Plymouth Brethren." George Mueller, one of the elders in Bristol, and founder of the orphanages. A. N. Groves who was perhaps the original of the Brethren, but who soon left England for mission work in Iraq and India. Robert Chapman in Barnstable, later called the "apostle of love."

Darby considered Newton his chief rival for movement leadership. After Newton was tragically widowed, Darby spent a couple years destroying his work, his church in Plymouth, and his reputation. Muller later crossed Darby by refusing to be subjected to his demands. The Brethren became forever divided, but Darby emerged the undisputed leader.

Perhaps it was not a "mistake," but the plan all along.

[Trapped]

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!

How is this not simply a Pauline version of a Petrine pope?

How is this not exalting a man?

How is this not idolatry?

HOW DOES DECEPTION WORK SO WELL ON SO MANY?!

[UntoHim]

To be fair to Ron Kangas (not that he'll ever return the favor) he didn't actually use the words "Greatest apostle since the apostle Paul"...however I have listened to this clip many times (I'm the one who transcribed this quip word for word in the opening post)....and he was absolutely saying this in so many words.

To be honest, I'm not really too shocked anymore about what comes out of the mouth of people like Ron Kangas and Minoru Chen. They truly have become "brother Lee's continuation".
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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Arguably, the two most influential men among the "Blended Brothers" are Minoru Chen and Ron Kangas. Of course there are other brothers who have varying degrees of influence in the movement, but these two fellows have clearly positioned themselves to be "first among equals".

"First among equals" usually means that only one guy is on top. History tells us this about all exclusive systems, from the Catholics to the Brethren to the Recovery. It's ingrained into their collective psyche -- "who is our leader?"

I would suspect there has been jockeying for power in Anaheim. We have heard that BP was the master at the behind-the-scenes control. (Read Rutledge account). He is, of course, the current President. Perhaps it is BP who maintains the "blended" ruse. Can this last forever?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I would suspect there has been jockeying for power in Anaheim. We have heard that BP was the master at the behind-the-scenes control. (Read Rutledge account). He is, of course, the current President. Perhaps it is BP who maintains the "blended" ruse. Can this last forever?

The whispers I have heard about Benson is that his mental cognition is on the decline. I don't think he's mastering much of anything anymore.

[UntoHim]

Yeah, I've heard the same thing about Benson. Of course one could easily wonder about the mental cognition of people who say they are possessed by the spirit of a dead bible teacher, and that he was a greater teacher than all the famous teachers who have ever lived since the original apostles! God have mercy.
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[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Yeah, I've heard the same thing about Benson. Of course one could easily wonder about the mental cognition of people who say they are possessed by the spirit of a dead bible teacher, and that he was a greater teacher than all the famous teachers who have ever lived since the original apostles! God have mercy.
-

Such is the power of cult mind control. It makes people, who are otherwise intelligent and discerning in areas outside the cult, turn off their rational thought inside of it. May God have mercy on the ones in it. May scales start to fall from their eyes. It's been too long.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by Ohio

"First among equals" usually means that only one guy is on top. History tells us this about all exclusive systems, from the Catholics to the Brethren to the Recovery. It's ingrained into their collective psyche -- "who is our leader?"

I would suspect there has been jockeying for power in Anaheim. We have heard that BP was the master at the behind-the-scenes control. (Read Rutledge account). He is, of course, the current President. Perhaps it is BP who maintains the "blended" ruse. Can this last forever?

Or more equal than others...

All Equals Are Blended But Some Equals Are More Blended Than Others.

This is what the 'greatest apostle' or maybe he was just the 'second greatest apostle' who ever lived had to say about himself AND about those who considered him at the time to be the 'greatest apostle, like everrrr!'

1 Corinthians 3: 1- 5

"Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly - mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is quarreling and jealousy among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, I follow Paul, and another, I follow Apollos, are you not mere men? WHAT AFTER ALL IS APOLLOS? AND WHAT IS PAUL?".... Only servants! ...

[Ohio]

A study should be done, using their own words and writings, comparing the humility of Apostle Paul with the arrogance of Witness Lee.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

This is what the 'greatest apostle' or maybe he was just the 'second greatest apostle' who ever lived had to say about himself AND about those who considered him at the time to be the 'greatest apostle, like everrrr!' 1 Corinthians 3: 1- 5

The "Lord´s Recovery" is the epitamy of 1 Cor. 3:1-5 in several ways:
1) Paul was admonishing the believers in Corinth not to follow a specific minister and make a party out of it, causing division. Believers in the LR do exactly that, they follow WL uniquely and exclusively. causing division. They are "of Lee".
2) Paul did not admonish the actual ministers for forming parties, yet in the LR the leaders teach to follow WL far and wide, the whole point of the LR is a group centered around and on the teachings of WL and the leaders promote this unashamedly and divisively as the basis of their so called "oneness of the Body".
3) In Corinth some divisively said they were "of Christ", thinking they were better than the others. In the LR they not only say they are "of Lee", they also similarly say they are "of Christ", but say we are "of the Lord". But in case that is not enough, they think they are even better than the Corinthians´ "of Christ" group, because they are of the "Lord´s Recovery." So yeah, "you Corinthians are of Christ, but we are of "Christ´s Recovery".

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by Nee-jerk ReaX'n

All Equals Are Blended But Some Equals Are More Blended Than Others.

1) Your posting reminds me of the movie "legally blonde".
So they are legally blended? or legally blind... Forgive me if my pun is not so fun...

BTW, seriously, some leading brothers in my country (South Korea) have claimed they are blended, but 30 years' reality here seems to prove the opposite.

2) Back to the original point, "the greatEST" apostle thing, the superlative degree can indicate the opposite extreme like in the tale of two cities by Charles Dickens.

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only."

I believe we have to remember Apostle Paul used a somewhat different kind of superlative... less than the least....

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Gubei

1) Your posting reminds me of the movie "legally blonde".
So they are legally blended? or legally blind... Forgive me if my pun is not so fun...

BTW, seriously, some leading brothers in my country (South Korea) have claimed they are blended, but 30 years' reality here seems to prove the opposite.

2) Back to the original point, "the greatEST" apostle thing, the superlative degree can indicate the opposite extreme like in the tale of two cities by Charles Dickens.

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only."

I believe we have to remember Apostle Paul used a somewhat different kind of superlative... less than the least....

Quite ironic, and when Apostle Paul referred to these fraudsters like the Blindeds, he called them superlative apostles. 2 Cor 11.5

[Ohio]

Eggs Act Lee!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Nee-jerk Ree-XN

5. (And maybe there is jealousy and quarrelling among you)

Number 5 explains much about Local Church history. How Lee couldn't get along with his peers. How certain elders/co-workers were pushed out. Blendeds like to view themselves as the authority, but far from it. Most remaining I believe are quite aged and just as stiffnecked. There was opportunity to repent and reconcile with their past and would not.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

If this statement wasn't so sad, it would be funny. The magnitude of the gravity of this statement is such that I believe it is time to warn all current members of the Local Church of Witness Lee to seriously consider leaving the movement, and find a healthy place to worship the Lord and fellowship with genuine believers. I would especially encourage all young people and new believers to take steps to extract themselves as soon as possible. With Ron Kangas at the helm, and others just like him there in Anaheim, things are likely to get a lot worse. Without true repentance, personality cults like the Local Church tend to get worse over time. May God have mercy.
-

Hello all,

I was trying to see this video of RK foaming about the LR, but looks like it gone from the web. Does anyone know where to find it?

Thanks

[JJ]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution"
Well, thank God that John Nelson Darby didn't have Brother Nee's constitution - If he did the world probably wouldn't have had any of JND's fine translations into English, French and German, all from the original languages by a genuine scholar.

"Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution"
Well, we should be doubly thankful to God for this one! Instead of having led the greatest revival/renaissance the Christian church has ever seen, Luther might of been out there hiring and firing elders and co-workers at his personal whim, selling meeting halls and church land to pay off his personal debts, allowing his porn addicted, alcoholic son sexually to assault sisters in his ministry offices, teaching all sorts of heresy, and claiming he was the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth. Wow...maybe we all dodged a bullet on that one!
-

Thus will it not be among you.

Matthew 20:20-28

Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Him with her sons, kneeling down and asking something from Him.
And He said to her, “What do you desire?”
She says to Him, “Say that these two sons of mine might sit, one on Your right hand and one on Your left hand, in Your kingdom.”
And Jesus answering, said, “You do not know what you ask for. Are you able to drink the cup which I am about to drink?”
They say to Him, “We are able.”
He says to them, “Indeed you will drink My cup, but to sit on My right hand and on My left, this is not Mine to give, but for whom it has been prepared by My Father.”
And the ten having heard this, were indignant about the two brothers. And Jesus having summoned them, said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and the great ones exercise authority over them. And it will it not be among you. But whoever wishes to become great among you, he will be your servant; whoever wishes to be first among you, he will be your slave— even as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”

[zeek]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

If this statement wasn't so sad, it would be funny. The magnitude of the gravity of this statement is such that I believe it is time to warn all current members of the Local Church of Witness Lee to seriously consider leaving the movement, and find a healthy place to worship the Lord and fellowship with genuine believers. I would especially encourage all young people and new believers to take steps to extract themselves as soon as possible. With Ron Kangas at the helm, and others just like him there in Anaheim, things are likely to get a lot worse. Without true repentance, personality cults like the Local Church tend to get worse over time. May God have mercy.
-

I would say Ron is entitled to his opinion, but you know what Witness Lee said about opinions.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by zeek

I would say Ron is entitled to his opinion, but you know what Witness Lee said about opinions.

Exactly. Why should we listen to Ron Kangas?

Originally Posted by zeek

I would say Ron is entitled to his opinion, but you know what Witness Lee said about opinions.

If you think that this is Ron’s opinion, you haven’t read or heard enough from this person. This is not his opinion, that’s what his whole belief system is built on. It’s the foundation of his faith, foundation of the system that the Local church is. That’s why he is one of those people who will beat others over their heads with rhetoric of this nature. I believe if you take away Witness Lee and Watchman Nee from the local church, the system will collapse to its core, and reveal that vast majority of those in it, will suffer major problems in their Christian faith. I highly doubt that Ron K. can function without a daily dose of Lee, or his spirit.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

If you think that this is Ron’s opinion, you haven’t read or heard enough from this person. This is not his opinion, that’s what his whole belief system is built on. It’s the foundation of his faith, foundation of the system that the Local church is. That’s why he is one of those people who will beat others over their heads with rhetoric of this nature. I believe if you take away Witness Lee and Watchman Nee from the local church, the system will collapse to its core, and reveal that vast majority of those in it, will suffer major problems in their Christian faith. I highly doubt that Ron K. can function without a daily dose of Lee, or his spirit.

Indeed. Yet it still doesn't change the fact that their foundation is built on opinions.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

If you think that this is Ron’s opinion, you haven’t read or heard enough from this person. This is not his opinion, that’s what his whole belief system is built on. It’s the foundation of his faith, foundation of the system that the Local church is. That’s why he is one of those people who will beat others over their heads with rhetoric of this nature. I believe if you take away Witness Lee and Watchman Nee from the local church, the system will collapse to its core, and reveal that vast majority of those in it, will suffer major problems in their Christian faith. I highly doubt that Ron K. can function without a daily dose of Lee, or his spirit.

I know Ron Kangas. He was an elder in the church in Detroit, where I first came in contact with the so-called lord's recovery. He was a phenom of spirituality and when, after a year living in the brothers house, I sat in his car with him after a meeting and explained how I had become disillusioned with the state of the local church he prayed with me. We migrated together from Detroit to Fort Lauderdale in a caravan of cars. There brothers who had been elders in this several churches competed for the eldership position in the newly consolidated church. It was a spectacle to behold, but Ron didn’t stay. Witness Lee called him out to Anaheim to work editing his messages for a living stream.

So thank you for your opinion about Ron's opinion. He obviously thinks it's more than an opinion, and apparently so do you. I haven’t seen him or spoken to him since he left Fort Lauderdale. People are deeper and more complex than I could possibly know. What we see of people are surfaces. God judges the hearts. That’s beyond me. May the Spirit of truth guide us from mere opinions into all truth.

Originally Posted by zeek

I know Ron Kangas. He was an elder in the church in Detroit, where I first came in contact with the so-called lord's recovery. He was a phenom of spirituality and when, after a year living in the brothers house, I sat in his car with him after a meeting and explained how I had become disillusioned with the state of the local church he prayed with me. We migrated together from Detroit to Fort Lauderdale in a caravan of cars. There brothers who had been elders in this several churches competed for the eldership position in the newly consolidated church. It was a spectacle to behold, but Ron didn’t stay. Witness Lee called him out to Anaheim to work editing his messages for a living stream.
So thank you for your opinion about Ron's opinion. He obviously thinks it's more than an opinion, and apparently so do you. I haven’t seen him or spoken to him since he left Fort Lauderdale. People are deeper and more complex than I could possibly know. What we see of people are surfaces. God judges the hearts. That’s beyond me. May the Spirit of truth guide us from mere opinions into all truth.

Your personal encounters with Ron may have clouded your thinking about him and what he is all about. I’ve been there, and Ron was one of my favorite “speakers” on conferences and trainings for many years. I can admit that I was willing to give him more rope on his speaking than any other person in the whole LSM. Even when I knew inside that what he said in some of his tirades was just plain dung, (as the MOTA has labeled it). I was willing to compromise the truth for it tickled my ears enough to feel good about myself and what I was a part of.

It is not until I left, and one day was reading John 7, when Jesus said the following statements:
…………………
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17*If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18*He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.………….
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
……………….
Your “opinion” about, “What we see of people are surfaces. God judges the hearts.” directly contradicts Jesus himself in the above text. We are to be able to judge for ourselves and discern what and for who these people are speaking for, unfortunately. It will lead to conflict and even divide. Truth divides people, if you like it or not!

You also notice that in Jesus’s own words in Mat 12:24-30, He didn’t condemn the servants for recognizing the differences between the wheat and tares, (which people overlook from the context on purpose to avoid conflict). Why is this important? Because it allows true believers to protect themselves from wolves and false brethren that have crept in. It’s is not our job to go and uproot them, or to get rid of them, God forbid, we leave them to God to do that, but to point them out and avoid them is what every true believer ought to be doing. May God give them according to their works, and may He give us true discernment to be able to make distinctions between man who are there pointing people to Christ, vs pointing people to follow fools like Witness Lee. The person’s speaking and his life doesn’t contradict each other, and if it ever does, there must be contrition or repentance. That never happened in the local church since it’s invention or inception, not with Nee and definitely not with Lee.

Ron is one of the most divisive individuals on earth, who has lost his way long time ago, when he sold his soul to Witness Lee for a position that he still hold to this day. What is unfortunate now, that there aren’t any or very few people today who are willing to say things out loud, call and point out the tares that have made a havoc in a lot of peoples lives. Everyone is looking for peace and tranquillity, oneness, but not many are willing to put their neck on the line to point out the embarrassment that is the local church. You can keep defending it, trying to make it sound as if there was positives to be had, but the fruits say otherwise, and that’s how you determine the difference between the truth and the false reality which has a lot of people in bondage today.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Your personal encounters with Ron may have clouded your thinking about him and what he is all about. I’ve been there, and Ron was one of my favorite “speakers” on conferences and trainings for many years. I can admit that I was willing to give him more rope on his speaking than any other person in the whole LSM. Even when I knew inside that what he said in some of his tirades was just plain dung, (as the MOTA has labeled it). I was willing to compromise the truth for it tickled my ears enough to feel good about myself and what I was a part of.

It is not until I left, and one day was reading John 7, when Jesus said the following statements:
…………………
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17*If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18*He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.………….
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
……………….
Your “opinion” about, “What we see of people are surfaces. God judges the hearts.” directly contradicts Jesus himself in the above text. We are to be able to judge for ourselves and discern what and for who these people are speaking for, unfortunately. It will lead to conflict and even divide. Truth divides people, if you like it or not!

You also notice that in Jesus’s own words in Mat 12:24-30, He didn’t condemn the servants for recognizing the differences between the wheat and tares, (which people overlook from the context on purpose to avoid conflict). Why is this important? Because it allows true believers to protect themselves from wolves and false brethren that have crept in. It’s is not our job to go and uproot them, or to get rid of them, God forbid, we leave them to God to do that, but to point them out and avoid them is what every true believer ought to be doing. May God give them according to their works, and may He give us true discernment to be able to make distinctions between man who are there pointing people to Christ, vs pointing people to follow fools like Witness Lee. The person’s speaking and his life doesn’t contradict each other, and if it ever does, there must be contrition or repentance. That never happened in the local church since it’s invention or inception, not with Nee and definitely not with Lee.

Ron is one of the most divisive individuals on earth, who has lost his way long time ago, when he sold his soul to Witness Lee for a position that he still hold to this day. What is unfortunate now, that there aren’t any or very few people today who are willing to say things out loud, call and point out the tares that have made a havoc in a lot of peoples lives. Everyone is looking for peace and tranquillity, oneness, but not many are willing to put their neck on the line to point out the embarrassment that is the local church. You can keep defending it, trying to make it sound as if there was positives to be had, but the fruits say otherwise, and that’s how you determine the difference between the truth and the false reality which has a lot of people in bondage today.

Thank you for your instructive reply. If you think I was lauding or defending Mr. Kangas, I must have expressed myself poorly. I was merely recounting that I knew the man personally.

Look at my signature line if you will. You’ll see my name there, the years I spent in the local churches and when I left. If I had followed the discernment of the spirit, I wouldn’t have stayed a week, let alone 13 years. I saw, the hate and coldness in Witness Lee’s spirit even in the videos, and I ignored it. I learned my lesson. The irony is , I was being taught to follow my spirit. To actually follow it would have been to get out of there as fast as I could run.

Now, you’re a bit mistaken in your application of John 7 to my poor words. Judging by appearance, was exactly what I was avoiding when I spoke of surfaces. “Righteous judgement” is the Lord’s. Those that “hunger and thirst for righteousness” hunger and thirst for God. Accept no substitute.

Now, I appreciate what you’re saying. Forgive me if I don’t always agree. As the videos have illustrated, we are all fallible, our opinions can change. I have only the sketchiest knowledge of Mr. Kangas and the Lord’s recovery movement since I left. So whatever judgement I make of it is provisional.

Your last paragraph is perhaps the critical one we need to focus on. After leaving the LC I spent decades in agnosticism questioning everything I had learned there. In dialogues on this forum we call this post LC phenomenon “throwing the baby out with the bathwater.” I don’t think that is what you intend.

I hope that you will join me in affirming that, whether we are speaking here, producing youtube videos or whatever, we want to practice the true oneness of the Spirit.

Ultimately it is up to the Good Shepherd to “recover” every lost lamb. We at best can give pointers in a process that is between the Lord and the individual soul and at the very least, may we not get in the way.

I marvel at the Lord’s inscrutable ways in allowing me if not leading me into the local churches, the deep truths I learned there mixed as they were with leaven. I don’t think the years I spent studying the Bible there were spent in vain. What do think?

[Trapped]

"Judge with righteous judgment" was Jesus speaking to the Jews. He wasn't saying righteous judgment was His. That is what He was instructing the Jews to do. The context was regarding the fact that they were okay to circumcise on the Sabbath because Moses "gave circumcision to them", and yet they were up in arms about Jesus making a whole man well on the Sabbath.

1 Corinthians 5 speaks specifically about judging those inside the church, and we are indeed to do it. The context is judging the very clear outward actions of someone - in that case the sexually immoral believer. I would also say the judgment of Diotrephes in 3 John and Paul's judgment of the false apostles in 2 Corinthians 11 show that we should indeed judge those inside the church, or who presume to be inside the church.

It's true only God can genuinely "see the heart".....but generally we make judgments based on words and actions. And Ron's words and actions are self-damning. If some Christian leader is going to stand on stage proclaiming that the earth should open up and swallow a couple truth tellers alive into Sheol, and then make jokes about the outcry after one of those truth tellers commits suicide......I'm gonna make some judgments about that leader and not worry one lick about whether I truly know his heart.

Standing against this kind of evil behavior that has infiltrated the church is one of the most important ways I can think of to keep the oneness of the Spirit.

Trapped

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Trapped

"Judge with righteous judgment" was Jesus speaking to the Jews. He wasn't saying righteous judgment was His. That is what He was instructing the Jews to do. The context was regarding the fact that they were okay to circumcise on the Sabbath because Moses "gave circumcision to them", and yet they were up in arms about Jesus making a whole man well on the Sabbath.

1 Corinthians 5 speaks specifically about judging those inside the church, and we are indeed to do it. The context is judging the very clear outward actions of someone - in that case the sexually immoral believer. I would also say the judgment of Diotrephes in 3 John and Paul's judgment of the false apostles in 2 Corinthians 11 show that we should indeed judge those inside the church, or who presume to be inside the church.

It's true only God can genuinely "see the heart".....but generally we make judgments based on words and actions. And Ron's words and actions are self-damning. If some Christian leader is going to stand on stage proclaiming that the earth should open up and swallow a couple truth tellers alive into Sheol, and then make jokes about the outcry after one of those truth tellers commits suicide......I'm gonna make some judgments about that leader and not worry one lick about whether I truly know his heart.

Standing against this kind of evil behavior that has infiltrated the church is one of the most important ways I can think of to keep the oneness of the Spirit.

Trapped

Perhaps. But, Christendom has a long history of churches being blown apart by this kind of stuff. When I was going to meetings, an elder labeled me as a negative brother because I was the only brother there who opposed the lawsuits aaginst other Christians. That time I followed my conscience. It seemed obvious to me that the scriptures didn't support suing Christians. Why didn't others see it? They must have seen it. Where was the oneness then?

Where is the oneness now? It must be here. Clearly we misunderstood the nature of oneness back there where I was. Apparently it meant sucking up and saying "amen" without discussion even when it went against your conscience and the teaching of the Bible. It wasn't easy to do that back there in the local church. It's easier to do outside of it. That's why I left.

The elder called a meeting of all the brothers in that locality for the sole purpose of finding out if anyone opposed Witness Lee's lawsuit. He instructed us to close our eyes, bow our heads and raise our hand if we did not support Witness Lee's lawsuit. While our heads were still bowed and eyes closed, the elder whispered in my ear that I should stay after the meeting. I was the only one who had raised a hand.

Was it the elder's idea to conduct that meeting? Maybe. Or was he following Lee's orders? I'll probably never know.

The oneness is of the Spirit. So, it isn't something we do. But, some things we do, can dim our awareness of the Spirit. That's what I want to avoid. It is only through the grace of God that I have His presence. I don't want to lose it again.

Jesus said, “blessed are the peacemakers.” I invite Ron Kangas to come and dialogue with us. Why wait for another age for the healing to begin? The kingdom of God is here now for those that see it and practice it. Let’s be those people.

Originally Posted by zeek

Thank you for your instructive reply. If you think I was lauding or defending Mr. Kangas, I must have expressed myself poorly. I was merely recounting that I knew the man personally.

Look at my signature line if you will. You’ll see my name there, the years I spent in the local churches and when I left. If I had followed the discernment of the spirit, I wouldn’t have stayed a week, let alone 13 years. I saw, the hate and coldness in Witness Lee’s spirit even in the videos, and I ignored it. I learned my lesson. The irony is , I was being taught to follow my spirit. To actually follow it would have been to get out of there as fast as I could run.

Now, you’re a bit mistaken in your application of John 7 to my poor words. Judging by appearance, was exactly what I was avoiding when I spoke of surfaces. “Righteous judgement” is the Lord’s. Those that “hunger and thirst for righteousness” hunger and thirst for God. Accept no substitute.

Now, I appreciate what you’re saying. Forgive me if I don’t always agree. As the videos have illustrated, we are all fallible, our opinions can change. I have only the sketchiest knowledge of Mr. Kangas and the Lord’s recovery movement since I left. So whatever judgement I make of it is provisional.

Your last paragraph is perhaps the critical one we need to focus on. After leaving the LC I spent decades in agnosticism questioning everything I had learned there. In dialogues on this forum we call this post LC phenomenon “throwing the baby out with the bathwater.” I don’t think that is what you intend.

I hope that you will join me in affirming that, whether we are speaking here, producing youtube videos or whatever, we want to practice the true oneness of the Spirit.

Ultimately it is up to the Good Shepherd to “recover” every lost lamb. We at best can give pointers in a process that is between the Lord and the individual soul and at the very least, may we not get in the way.

I marvel at the Lord’s inscrutable ways in allowing me if not leading me into the local churches, the deep truths I learned there mixed as they were with leaven. I don’t think the years I spent studying the Bible there were spent in vain. What do think?

I don’t want to break the rules of this forum here, and so I’ll stay within the topic of this thread. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and experience and how you left, which is already more significant than 90% of people who aren’t even willing to hear that voice that speaks every so often to stop compromising and going against your conscience often. You being the one or one a few who saw those things and it bothered you, speaks volumes about who and what spirit a bunch of people in that movement are listening to.

On the other hand, just a small comment about oneness, which is outside of this thread: you ever noticed that the people screaming for oneness are usually the once who are the most divisive? I actually don’t believe in oneness as a Biblical concept, there isn’t a single mention of the word oneness in the whole Bible. But this is for another time maybe when there is a thread related to the issue to comment on.

Lastly, your comment about sitting down or inviting Ron K to discuss things is pretty naive, IMO. That’s not to put you down in any shape or form but to say you must look at the history of the past 40 years, and see how Ron and LSM has treated everyone that spoke about them, everyone that wanted to sit down and speak. Im still waiting for LSM to release the four hour conversation between the original CRI founder Walter Martin, and Witness Lee. It was supposed to be be made public, but WL haven’t done it and nether did LSM (I might be wrong here, if it was released please correct me, I asked before and couldn’t get an answer). Ron had his chances, many of them, to speak publicly with people I'm going to assume, but we all here are aware of his public statements and outright awful comments that he spoke about those people. I have no interest in any shape or form to have a conversation about anything nether with him or really anyone that supports/promotes/believes anything associated with the so-called “ministry”, since I have no more tolerance for anything associated with Lee or Nee, sorry.


P.S

I don’t think the years I spent studying the Bible there were spent in vain. What do think?

Maybe in the 70s and early 80s you actually, “maybe”, highly doubtful, studied the Bible in the LC, without getting interpreted “Bible” showed down your throat, so I cannot relate to those days, since I didn’t experience such things during my time there.
The Bible is never meant to study or understand what it actually is speaking to you in the LC, it’s meant to be breathe, to enjoy, to repeat, but God forbid you will try to understand it or seek the Lord to reveal things to you through the work of the Holy Spirit. You may catch something that contradicts the going special leading, special dispensing, and you might avoid purchasing the next book released by LSM, so please avoid this confusion at all costs. Just subscribe to the daily portions, monthly magazines, and high peak truths, delivered to you as long as you wish to eat it. (Ron by the way, is a chief editor of these publications, so there you go)

Thanks


And thank you Trapped for pointing out that “ Judge with righteous judgment”, was spoken to Jews in John 7, and for additional scriptures to add to the same message. I agree with your post.

[zeek]

Unregistered Guest-

When I used the word "oneness" I was referring to that quality or state of being referred to by our Lord when he prayed to the Father,

“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are." John 17:9-11

and again

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. John 17:20-23

When Jesus had spoken these words, He went directly to the garden where Judas betrayed him. So, the fact that it was the last thing the Lord prayed for before he was arrested indicates to me that the oneness or unity or whatever you want to call it, was of the highest importance to Him. So, that's what I'm seeking.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Trapped

"Judge with righteous judgment" was Jesus speaking to the Jews. He wasn't saying righteous judgment was His. That is what He was instructing the Jews to do. The context was regarding the fact that they were okay to circumcise on the Sabbath because Moses "gave circumcision to them", and yet they were up in arms about Jesus making a whole man well on the Sabbath.

1 Corinthians 5 speaks specifically about judging those inside the church, and we are indeed to do it. The context is judging the very clear outward actions of someone - in that case the sexually immoral believer. I would also say the judgment of Diotrephes in 3 John and Paul's judgment of the false apostles in 2 Corinthians 11 show that we should indeed judge those inside the church, or who presume to be inside the church.

It's true only God can genuinely "see the heart".....but generally we make judgments based on words and actions. And Ron's words and actions are self-damning. If some Christian leader is going to stand on stage proclaiming that the earth should open up and swallow a couple truth tellers alive into Sheol, and then make jokes about the outcry after one of those truth tellers commits suicide......I'm gonna make some judgments about that leader and not worry one lick about whether I truly know his heart.

Standing against this kind of evil behavior that has infiltrated the church is one of the most important ways I can think of to keep the oneness of the Spirit.

Trapped

Here’s another terrible warning to those who speak:
Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Nell

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Nell

Here’s another terrible warning to those who speak:
Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Nell

Yeah, that's a good indicator that we can actually tell some of what is in a person's heart by what they say. And if so, what Ron says is a very scary indicator of what is in his heart.....

And hey, none of us made him say what he says. That's all him. And he says it all on record for everyone listening to hear, so we get to decide what that means for how much credence we give him.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Yeah, that's a good indicator that we can actually tell some of what is in a person's heart by what they say. And if so, what Ron says is a very scary indicator of what is in his heart.....

And hey, none of us made him say what he says. That's all him. And he says it all on record for everyone listening to hear, so we get to decide what that means for how much credence we give him.

We know some of what is in RK’s heart by what he has told us - he was convinced that WL was the “greatest” of them all. That belief directed all of his words and actions, regardless of God’s words and commands.

And this alone liberated me from my being enslaved by them both. When RK “bore false witness against his neighbor” John Ingalls in order to justify the lies of WL hiding his family corruption, I saw who RK’s real “god” was. The God I believe in demands righteousness and integrity, not deceptive coverups.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

If this statement wasn't so sad, it would be funny. The magnitude of the gravity of this statement is such that I believe it is time to warn all current members of the Local Church of Witness Lee to seriously consider leaving the movement, and find a healthy place to worship the Lord and fellowship with genuine believers. I would especially encourage all young people and new believers to take steps to extract themselves as soon as possible. With Ron Kangas at the helm, and others just like him there in Anaheim, things are likely to get a lot worse. Without true repentance, personality cults like the Local Church tend to get worse over time. May God have mercy.
-

For people to understand the Lords Recovery movement, you should look at historical view called sacerdotalism. In truth, and through reading their writings and in their messages, you can trace this belief as a cornerstone for all of their supposed ministries. Unfortunately, this is not a New Testament order or something that any man should be subjected to. Messages of this nature including this statement form Ron Kangas is precisely why this movement has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Be the light.

For people to understand the Lords Recovery movement, you should look at historical view called sacerdotalism. In truth, and through reading their writings and in their messages, you can trace this belief as a cornerstone for all of their supposed ministries. Unfortunately, this is not a New Testament order or something that any man should be subjected to. Messages of this nature including this statement form Ron Kangas is precisely why this movement has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity.

Be the light,

Welcome to the forum!

You are right, this concept of mediators features heavy in the local church in numerous forms:

• minister of the age who God gives the vision to who then give the vision to everyone else
• deputy authorities who "represent God" to you and who you are to submit to regardless of right or wrong
• "needing the covering of the brothers" - a layer of protection because apparently they have some special something the rest don't have
• "covering the sins of the brothers" - the thought that the leading brothers' sins should be covered as if they are a special class that requires special protection that only God can touch
• the ministry itself - you must go to this to get light, etc

and on and on.

The confusing thing is that in the local church truth is mixed with falsehood. I distinctly remember hearing in trainings that "we can boldly approach the throne of grace!" and they tell you to "spend time with the Lord". But then it's all inextricably packaged with the above points that negate the truth that's occasionally spoken, and so the saints can't see what's going on.

Trapped

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We know some of what is in RK’s heart by what he has told us - he was convinced that WL was the “greatest” of them all. That belief directed all of his words and actions, regardless of God’s words and commands.

Suffice it to say that I don't go to LC meetings often. Occasionally, family obligations force my hand, and I find myself in something. Last year, I went to one meeting, I think. There were a few old-timers, a few new-timers, but the assembly was a shell of its former self.

And we got a visit from Brother RK himself. The topic was transformation, I believe - in LC parlance it's "being transformed in life and nature by imbibing the Processed and Consummated Triune God". There's this idea that by "pray-reading" and "calling" and "groaning" and so forth, one has an inward metabolic transformation and becomes the same as God.

But RK was giving us a sober message, telling us that you can pass through all this, and not get transformed. He gave us an anecdote, about a time 38 years ago, he was having fellowship with some brothers after a conference, and they got interrupted by some impertinent young sister who demanded to know the answer to a theological question. So they addressed her, and she left them.

And he said, "And now, 38 years later, she's still the same." I don't remember the words he used but the idea was that she was still impetuous, flighty, unstable. Just older and more peculiar, still demanding and unperceptive, with peculiarities even more pronounced. Little evidence of the inward, metabolic transformation to be more, like Christ.

But RK told us that he'd been saved from that. One time he was at a conference by WL, who said to pray every day, "Lord, make Your home in my heart", and he (RK) had done so every day since, and had the full assurance that Christ was there, working.

What struck me was the difference between this story and what I've heard in the WL church since the 1970s. "Calling is the way." "Just by calling every day" "Just call, 'O Lord', he'll change your life".

Now here was the story of a woman who'd been calling for 38 years, with no change. She hadn't gone to the right conference, heard the right message, prayed the special prayer. No, she was just calling, calling, calling every moment each day. Calling the name of Jesus, she (wrongly) thought it was the way.

I looked around to see if anyone else had picked up on the apparent turn in LC dogma. Nobody seemed to notice. Maybe the idea was, As long as you're here, getting the Word from the Great Man, you're in the Flow from the Throne. Even if, while in the Flow, he tells you that you've wasted the last 40 years of your life just by calling every day.

We were told, "Just call O Lord, He'll change your life", and anything else was some variant of "dead works." All we had to do as believers was gather on the local ground, be in oneness, call on the Lord out of a pure heart. Then suddenly, decades later, we find that there was the requirement for a special prayer from a special conference that RK and a few insiders went to.

What should we think of that? If you hold to the Great Man theory, then being told by RK that you've wasted the past decades on inadequate doctrine and insufficient practice is still acceptable (I guess), because you got told this by the Great Man RK himself. But think about it - if WL and then RK gave us poor doctrine, illogical, poorly-founded, and eventually contradicted, abandoned or ignored, were they really Great Men?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by aron

...
And he said, "And now, 38 years later, she's still the same." ...
But RK told us that he'd been saved from that. One time he was at a conference by WL, who said to pray every day, "Lord, make Your home in my heart", and he (RK) had done so every day since, and had the full assurance that Christ was there, working.

What struck me was the difference between this story and what I've heard in the WL church since the 1970s. "Calling is the way." "Just by calling every day" "Just call, 'O Lord', he'll change your life".

Now here was the story of a woman who'd been calling for 38 years, with no change. She hadn't gone to the right conference, heard the right message, prayed the special prayer. No, she was just calling, calling, calling every moment each day. Calling the name of Jesus, she (wrongly) thought it was the way.
...

What should we think of that? If you hold to the Great Man theory, then being told by RK that you've wasted the past decades on inadequate doctrine and insufficient practice is still acceptable (I guess), because you got told this by the Great Man RK himself. But think about it - if WL and then RK gave us poor doctrine, illogical, poorly-founded, and eventually contradicted, abandoned or ignored, were they really Great Men?

Then there's this: Matthew 7
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Apparently the LC leadership (RK) doesn't think these verses apply to them and Lee's teachings...why is that?. The testimonies of RK and Lee himself, these "all you have to do is ..." teachings, by their own public admission, are false teachings, and which, by definition, makes them false prophets. Why can we say that? The fruit. In this example, 38 years of evil fruit...lies.

How do you test the teachings of any man? Look at the fruit. This is not hard. When you promote yourself as the GOAT...the Greatest Of All Times... there are stats that either confirm or deny your claims. The fruit is either good or evil. This forum is full of testimonies of the evil fruit we experienced in the LC...most of us here have experienced the ravening wolves.

The LC has an entire website (shepherdingwords.org) dedicated to the excuses of the RK's of the world about the evil fruit. Again, this is not hard. Another prayer "Lord, please don't let me be deceived."

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit says...(as opposed to Lee, et al.)

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

How do you test the teachings of any man? Look at the fruit. This is not hard.

I think that "ravening wolves" (opposed to sheep/shepherds) is applicable. If your so-called Prophet keeps changing the message, then he or she has a ministry of exigency: they say whatever they need to say, and teach whatever they need to teach, to get you to buy the message today. Ravening wolves are going to be consistently inconsistent. Today's message contradicts last week or last year, because the needs today are different from last week or last year. That's the 'ravening' part. They are always needy, always hungry. There's always a fresh imposition.

With WN, we saw the idea of the independent local church replaced by the "Jerusalem Principle." Early on, the "independent local church on local ground" was an exigency (temporary need) to rid the taint of Western Christianity, and raise up a native version. Once he had a native Chinese church, then he needed to consolidate, and suddenly he (ahem) 'recovered' the Jerusalem Principle. Every local church suddenly needed a spiritual center. That was the new need, and the new doctrine. The Spiritual Center part didn't work when it was Rome, or London, but suddenly it made perfect sense when the Center is Shanghai! Right?

With WL, we saw "flow" after "burden", many of which contradicted each other or historical church precedent, or had little scriptural basis, but instead rested on "revelation" or home-spun allegory - tea bags, anyone? - but no matter - that's what the Great Man needed us to hear today. Suddenly that's the vision of the age.

At one point, I googled "Center of the Universe" combined with WL's name, and found something like 5 distinct centers taught at various times by him: the human spirit, the tree of life, the cross, the throne of God, etc. Each one fit his "burden" for that particular week. Let's not be fooled - God isn't like that. There's no shadow cast by turning.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Raptor, I definitely remember that comment, not in a video, but in the book, A Response to Recent Accusations, by RK and KR, released at the Winter Training 1989.

After the "storm" of the late 80's, when Ingalls and the other Anaheim elders resigned, this self-published book was written in response to Ingalls et.al. "16 Points." I remembered WL, TC, and other once-respected leaders calling these "16 Points" a "kill shot" taken at WL.

Chapter 9 of the book, which I still have, is titled "The Accusation Concerning Brother WL's Being Exalted and Honored Above What is Written." This book was absolutely brainwashing propaganda lies to keep the faithful from seeking the truth about what really was happening.[/I][/U].

Ohio, if you still have that book would you be willing to loan it to me? I have tried in vain to obtain a copy. Amazon only makes mention of the book.

P.S.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Here is a larger video clip in which this cultic statement was made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRJhTQXT2_g

This message was probably given sometime between the Winter Training (end of Dec through beginning of Jan 2020) and when the virus shut everything down. When this message was given is not nearly as important as what is said by Ron Kangas.
-

Ooops, That video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Living Stream Ministry!

However a similarly crazy rant in 2007 by Ron Kangas about the supposed successions of MOTA from Noah to Lee can be heard at this link starting at about 47 minutes and building up to a cultic frenzied climax around 1 hour 7 minutes.

A short 3 1/2 minute video clip of the most horrendous part of that same recording can be downloaded here.


P.S.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Ohio, if you still have that book would you be willing to loan it to me? I have tried in vain to obtain a copy.

P.S.

You should have asked me. lol

Sure I can send it to you.

Twenty years ago while I studied the history surrounding the Plymouth Brethren’ first division in the late 1840’s (before we in Greater Ohio were excommunicated by RK and Co. At LSM), there were a number of “hit” pieces done by G V Wigram. As a Darby-lackey, he just viciously assaulted B W Newton and George Muller in one of their “tract wars.” It was so “over the top” pathetic that I just walked over to my bookcase and pitched Wigram’s Greek Concordance. That felt righteous! I never did miss that book. lol

At the time, I remember thinking that RK’s Response to Recent Accusations was written in the same twisted vindictive toady spirit. I should have pitched it too! RK is NOT a Bible teacher, rather a WL apologist, plain and simple.

Please take that rag off of my hands.

[aron]

What's happening here is nothing more than mythmaking, supporting something raised and rejected in the NT, that group leadership is "lording over one another", or "being great", which Jesus dismissed as "of the gentiles", or "of the nations". If you look at source material, what little exists, of practices in China of the Little Flock, this unbiblical pattern emerges. Then it got propped up by flimsy reeds, e.g., 'drunken Noah', and subsequently became the foundation of predatory, abusive and non-Christian behaviours.

Originally Posted by aron

Quotes and sources for J T-H Lee 2005 paper on Nee

"What happened inside the Little Flock communities?. . . It has been difficult for Chinese and foreign researchers to conduct fieldwork among the Little Flock in China today. It's also difficult to piece together the thorough account of their leader. There are a few biographical works on Watchman Nee written by Christians abroad. Aimed at the Overseas Chinese churches critical of Communist religious policy, these works emphasize the saintly character of Watchman Nee without addressing the contexts in which he interacted with the government. Recent studies by Leung Ka-Lun and Ying Fuk-Tsang of Hong Kong are important for our understanding of the subject. Drawing on published and unpublished Chinese official sources, Leung and Ying present invaluable findings about the changing attitude of Watchman Nee towards the Communist state and his ambiguous relationship with leaders of the Three-Self Patriotic Movement." ~p.70

~Leung Ka-Lun, Ni Tuosheng de rongru shengchu [Watchman Nee: His Glory and Dishonour] (Hong Kong: Alliance Bible Seminary, 2003); and Ying Fuk-Tsang, Ni Tuosheng yu sanzi gexin yundong [Watchman Nee and the Three-Self Movement, 1949-1951] Jian Dao: A Journal of Bible and Theology 20 (July 2003): 129-75

Then Lee's 2005 paper covers how Nee reversed field completely from autonomous local churches to a centralized movement, and adds this:

"Institutionally speaking, the Shanghai Assembly was the de facto headquarters of the Little Flock Movement in China. The authority was concentrated in the hands of "God's apostles", namely Watchman Nee and his female co-workers, Li Yuanru, Wang Peizhen, and Yu Chenghua, who were famous evangelists before joining the Little Flock. The Home of Deacons and Guling in Fuzhou was the national training center of Little Flock leaders while the Gospel Bookstore in Shanghai published Christian pamphlets. There were many such business enterprises run by Watchman Nee in support of the Little Flock activities." ~p.79

What happened more recently with RK is just one of the later iterations of a process which predates WL coming to the United States in 1962.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

What's happening here is nothing more than mythmaking, supporting something raised and rejected in the NT, that group leadership is "lording over one another", or "being great", which Jesus dismissed as "of the gentiles", or "of the nations". If you look at source material, what little exists, of practices in China of the Little Flock, this unbiblical pattern emerges. Then it got propped up by flimsy reeds, e.g., 'drunken Noah', and subsequently became the foundation of predatory, abusive and non-Christian behaviours.
.

Exactly. It’s the same kind of fallen logic that elevated an elder in Rome to the bishop of Rome to the Pope to the Vicar of Christ over all the earth.

Just remove the actual reading of the text of the Bible by all the faithful, and introduce fragments of verses taken out of context which are manipulated to say whatever the emerging hierarchy desires.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Remove the actual reading of the text of the Bible by all the faithful, and introduce fragments of verses taken out of context which are manipulated to say whatever the emerging hierarchy desires.

As one who confesses Jesus Christ as Lord, and believes on the resurrection of Jesus from the dead on the third day, and the related idea that "His blood makes us clean from every sin", I've been called a participant in the collective Christian mythmaking exercise. I bought into the story, and help perpetuate it through my confession and group participation. Guilty as charged. I believe, and confess.

However, my faith in the Christian testimony as recorded in NT scripture and subsequent church historical documents should not be turned into "I believe whatever I'm told by church leaders." It is the responsibility of every person to examine their faith carefully, and see what it rests on. Church history turned on Martin Luther examining scripture, and current practice, and pointing out the discrepancies. That is our collective heritage, and ongoing responsibility.

In the case of Watchman Nee, the more you find out, the worse it looks. And that experience of WN in China in the 1930s and 1940s became the foundation of the Lord's Recovery in the United States in the 1960s and 1970s. We naïvely believed whatever we were told, allowed scripture to be arranged, and conveniently overlooked the parts which didn't line up. Because the more one looks, the more doesn't line up.

Various authors now place Watchman Nee and 3 female co-workers as claiming to be God's Apostles in the Shanghai-based Little Flock, yet 80 years later, females can't even be local elders in the Local Church of Witness Lee, because women can't take positions of responsibility in the NT church? If someone says, "I believe", what exactly do they believe, here? The only conclusion I can come up with is, "I believe everything the MOTA says", and "I believe that I'll keep my mouth shut so as not to get in trouble", or "I believe that I'll just 'amen' today's message" and so forth. That becomes your faith, not Jesus Christ. Naivete becomes deliberate and determined obtuseness. And how many pseudo-Christian cults build on this very same foundation?

Back to RK on the beginning of the thread: for WN and WL, he uses criteria for their person, their constitution, their ministry, and their vision. Would the NT apostles have cut their family into church tithes, creating for-profit entities with family members at the helm, creating clear conflict-of-interest issues? Would NT apostles have put admittedly "unspiritual" progeny as business managers, and then have overlooked their repeated abuses of church members? Would NT apostles have leveraged their church position to get "investments" from church members, then tell them on the phone, as WL did to SB, that the current disposition of the funds was "my personal business"? And the same thing with WN with his machinations and business dealings and church-fund shuffling - what kind of impression should we get of their constitution and their person, after looking at the history?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

If someone says, "I believe", what exactly do they believe, here? The only conclusion I can come up with is, "I believe everything the MOTA says", and "I believe that I'll keep my mouth shut so as not to get in trouble", or "I believe that I'll just 'amen' today's message" and so forth. That becomes your faith, not Jesus Christ. Naivete becomes deliberate and determined obtuseness. And how many pseudo-Christian cults build on this very same foundation?

In modern LC vernacular, this is an apt description for what is commonly referred to as “The Vision.”

Back to RK on the beginning of the thread: for WN and WL, he uses criteria for their person, their constitution, their ministry, and their vision. Would the NT apostles have cut their family into church tithes, creating for-profit entities with family members at the helm, creating clear conflict-of-interest issues? Would NT apostles have put admittedly "unspiritual" progeny as business managers, and then have overlooked their repeated abuses of church members? Would NT apostles have leveraged their church position to get "investments" from church members, then tell them on the phone, as WL did to SB, that the current disposition of the funds was "my personal business"? And the same thing with WN with his machinations and business dealings and church-fund shuffling - what kind of impression should we get of their constitution and their person, after looking at the history?

Apostle Paul would tell us boldly, “We are NOT like these guys, peddling the Word of God for their own personal profit.” - 2 Cor 2.17

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by aron

Would the NT apostles have cut their family into church tithes, creating for-profit entities with family members at the helm, creating clear conflict-of-interest issues? Would NT apostles have put admittedly "unspiritual" progeny as business managers, and then have overlooked their repeated abuses of church members? Would NT apostles have leveraged their church position to get "investments" from church members, then tell them on the phone, as WL did to SB, that the current disposition of the funds was "my personal business"?

Just considerning the book of James and some of Paul´s writings and just these two apostles would have "torn the LR leaders to shreds."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Just considering the book of James and some of Paul´s writings and just these two apostles would have "torn the LR leaders to shreds."

I completely agree. Just compare WN and WL to the "person" and "constitution" of authors of the NT and there's no comparison. In order to make the scheme work, we had a narrative that there were hidden or lost parts in the NT, which were brought to light, or recovered, by "today's apostle", which supposedly higher recovered truths allowed them to contravene scripture set forth in the gospels and James' epistle.

Subsequently, James and Peter could be called "low" and "natural" and the highfalutin gloss on half-verses from John and Paul could be seen as Paul's up-to-date continuation, so that if and when the faithful notice that what's being taught today doesn't match the NT text, they'll go with today's MOTA and his so-called interpreted word, instead of the Bible.

And then, if today's revelation contradicts yesterday's, or that of last week or last year, the conditioned reflex is to follow the current speaking. "Just be simple - don't be hardened. Drop your concepts." Think of the weird stuff that can emerge from such an environment. Whatever the MOTA wants becomes today's reality. One day you're bleating, "Four legs good, two legs BAD!!", then the next day, "Four legs good, two legs BETTER!!".

I'd scoff, if I hadn't gone through it myself.

Originally Posted by Ohio

In modern LC vernacular, this is an apt description for what is commonly referred to as “The Vision.”

Interesting how the Vision has its own poison pill to resist the antidote, or cure.

Joe: Witness Lee says, "ABC". We better go along, because he's God's Anointed Minister for the Age.

Jim: But how do we know he's the MOTA?

Joe: Who else teaches "ABC"? Clearly Witness Lee has the Vision, so he's the MOTA.

Jim: But maybe "ABC" isn't the end-all. Maybe the reality is this, or that....

Joe: What? You contradict the MOTA? You dare rebel against God's throne?


It's the Vision, because it's from the MOTA, and he's the MOTA, b/c he has the Vision. It just goes round and round, there's nothing there. It puts you into a reflexive arc, and you can't get out. At one point the mantra became, "Even when he's wrong, he's right." That's what people had to tell each other, to reconcile their disjointed minds, and get through another day.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Apostle Paul would tell us boldly, “We are NOT like these guys, peddling the Word of God for their own personal profit.” - 2 Cor 2.17

Don Rutledge said that he left the Day Star pitch session "with my head spinning"... suddenly Christ and the Church was a motor home company. It was completely disorienting, bewildering.

But WL had done such a job of grooming naïve American teens and young adults from the Jesus Movement, convincing them that "here is all God's riches", that they'd found the inside track to God's current speaking, and were "wrecked" and "ruined" for anything else, that most remained.

Even though DR didn't give a dime, by his account, the majority ponied up. Some gave up retirement funds, life savings. It was probably quite the ducat for Lee family coffers. Yes, some went into RVs that didn't sell. But much got skimmed by Timothy Lee and other Phosphorous principals. It's pretty impressive what they pulled off. Not good, but impressive.

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out." ~Ron Kangas

Since RK wants to consider the constitutional qualities of "a certain kind of person", who meets the Lord's need on the earth today, it's worth mentioning that Watchman Nee was seen in court, admitting to producing and possessing pornography. If this wasn't true, the Nee apologists would have gotten right after that. But apparently that's not questioned, as instead the Nee defenders have gone after the motives of the observer, her character, subsequent life, etc.

So if we have an agreed-upon fact, that Watchman Nee confessed to producing and owning pornography, that fact may say something quite telling about his constitution. That Nee confessed to this points to two possibilities, neither of which helps the claim that he was the greatest spiritual authority on earth. There are two alternatives, here: either Nee lied, and falsely confessed to producing pornography to get a lesser sentence, knowing that his testimony in court would shipwreck the faith of many disciples, or else he told the truth, that he really did produce and own pornography.

I've never seen a Nee apologist like RK take this on. It rather seems that they'd talk about what a terrible person Lilly Hsu must be, craven, cowardly, backstabbing. But that she says that she heard him confess in the courtroom to this charge isn't addressed by those who decry her memoir. (I think perhaps her account is independently corroborated).

If the courtroom confession of Watchman Nee was fabricated by Communists, their lackeys and dupes, we'd have heard it. But instead, we see that the actual confession subject is avoided, probably because of what it indicates about Nee's constitution, character and person. If the whole Little Flock/Lord's Recovery movement is based on Nee & Lee character assessment, and then Lee is heard telling church member Sal Benoit that the disposition of Sal's loan is "my personal business", or Nee's heard confessing to producing pornography, what does that make of their movement?

To those who are given to "follow this way of Recovery", I'd ask, why determine not to know much about your founding apostles? If your only source about Witness Lee's constitution and person has been Ron Kangas, and your only basis for Watchman Nee's character was from Witness Lee, and you steadfastly refuse to consider others, then what's the base your faith?

You may have hope, but in what - in the resurrection of Jesus, or in that Watchman Nee was a spiritual giant, or that Witness Lee was the greatest apostle since Paul? And if there's multiple sources of independent, mutually-corroborated evidence that something quite contrary is true about Nee & Lee, than what LSM has said, then what to do? Should Christians fear the light? What's so scary about truth?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!

“I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

All this vain talk about who is the greatest was shutdown by Jesus Himself every single time it reared its ugly head. One would think that these kinds of thoughts would never again be discussed by legitimate teachers of the Bible. The basic theme throughout the Bible is simple - all men have sinned, and only God Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ, should ever be uplifted, lauded, and extolled.

Not so in Recovery world. Have they not merely repeated the cries of old, “we want a king,” like all the nations have? I would say, “If someone is sober and thorough,” they would consider only Jesus!!

When real angels, and by all accounts, sinless and holy angels like Michael and Gabriel, appeared to us, they regularly admonished us to worship only God. When those in Lystra in Acts 14 tried to worship Paul, he said “stop, we are mere men like you.” After that these same fools reversed course and suddenly proceeded to stone Paul.

One characteristic of MOTA’s is their constant exaltation of their predecessors, which kind of proves RK’s ulterior motive for his comments here. The message is plain, “exalt me like I exalt WL.” Was not that WL’s hidden agenda whenever exalting WN? The Blendeds, like RK, absolutely heard that message.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

One characteristic of MOTA’s is their constant exaltation of their predecessors, which kind of proves RK’s ulterior motive for his comments here. The message is plain, “exalt me like I exalt WL.” Was not that WL’s hidden agenda whenever exalting WN? The Blendeds, like RK, absolutely heard that message.

Even if you had no prior information about this movement, the fact that they incessantly prop up their human leaders, their "character" and "person" and "constitution" is a huge red flag, for reasons outlined in Ohio's post. The subsequent uncovering of the shenanigans, going back over decades, confirms the initial assessment. I got fooled. They seemed to be genuine Christians, sang the old Protestant hymns that I knew & trusted, then got me "stirred up" by the repetitive shouting, then they massaged my ego, and convinced me that I was among "God's best." Mea culpa. But now I warn others, to avoid my mistake.

[aron]

Another striking feature is that the personal bona fides are promoted by RK as evidence of primacy: no Chistian since Paul the apostle has had such sagacity and impeccable character.

Then, when bits of the truth dribble out, of the confession to producing porn, or of pressuring the flock for funds for businesses run by family, the narrative will shift, to the importance of covering drunken Noah, and respect for God's ordination, for order in the church.

So the logic reverses, and even becomes self-negating, yet everyone is supposed to disregard that. It's especially tough for those born into this cult, who are fed all this from the cradle. They must try to reconcile this dissonance, but at great psychological and emotional cost.

The narrative thrust goes from the impeccable wisdom and unparalleled character of WL, to "Hey, nobody's perfect- who are you to judge God's anointing?" This happens repeatedly, as I've tried to show elsewhere. You can probably take 5 random messages in this collection, and will find similar self-contradiction.

So the controlling vision inevitably becomes, "Do whatever you are told. Whatever Big Boss wants today is our present reality." It's a personality cult with a thin veneer of Christianity on top. The veneer is essential for recruiting purposes, but once inside, you realize that's all it was. But by then, for many, it's too late.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Even if you had no prior information about this movement, the fact that they incessantly prop up their human leaders, their "character" and "person" and "constitution" is a huge red flag, for reasons outlined in Ohio's post. The subsequent uncovering of the shenanigans, going back over decades, confirms the initial assessment. I got fooled. They seemed to be genuine Christians ...

I, of course, still believe that they all are genuine Christians, at least all the leaders I knew back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. Reading the NT carefully one can see that many Christian leaders will fail us, falling into sin, immorality, or financial corruption. Dangers abound. Beware of false teachers and prophets. We should be careful never to interpret these ones in scripture as fakes or non-Christians. Apologist Ravi Zacharias is a recent example of a well-respected Christian who fell into sin. Many more can be cited.

Back during the "new way" of the late 80's, when I went to Taiwan to participate in the Lord's "up-to-date" move, there was a scandal breaking over the news concerning televangelists Jim and Tammie Bakker. Regularly I was reminded by LC and LSM leaders, and WL himself, that the Recovery was altogether holy, pure, godly, and absolutely free from any sort of financial, sinful, or moral corruption as we saw played out on the media.

I believed it all. I got fooled too! How could I know? Am I responsible for that which I was unaware of?

Fast forward to the Midwest Quarantines, which really started behind the scenes after WL passed, and gained momentum after Y2K. Now we all had the internet, the old Bereans forum began, and even Plymouth Brethren writings were now available. The written accounts of a number of well-respected former members, like John Ingalls of Anaheim, were digitized and posted for internet availability. The number of honest and believable testimonies that became available during the quarantine was overwhelming.

It was a light shining in a dark place, the rotten spirit hidden in LSM past.

On several occasions WL told us all from the podium concerning John Ingalls that "People Change." Yes, they do. But it was not John Ingalls who changed. He was faithful unto death. It was WL who changed.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

And we got a visit from Brother RK himself. The topic was transformation, I believe - this idea that by "pray-reading" and "calling" and "groaning" and so forth, one has an inward metabolic transformation and becomes the same as God. But Ron was giving us a sober message, telling us that you can pass through all this, and not get transformed. He gave us an anecdote, about a time 38 years ago, he was having fellowship after a conference, and was interrupted by some impertinent young sister who demanded to know the answer to a theological question. So they addressed her, and she left them.

And he said, "And now, 38 years later, she's still the same." I don't remember the words he used but the idea was that she was still impetuous, flighty, unstable. Still demanding and unperceptive, with peculiarities even more pronounced. Little evidence of the inward, metabolic transformation. But Ron had been saved from that. He went to a conference by WL, who said to pray every day, "Lord, make Your home in my heart", and he'd done so every day since, and had the full assurance that Christ was there, working.

What struck me was the stark contrast between this, and what I heard in the WL church since the 1970s. "Calling is the way." "Just by calling every day" "Just call, 'O Lord', he'll change your life".

Now here was the story of a woman who'd been calling for 38 years, with no change. She hadn't gone to the right conference, heard the right message, prayed the special prayer. No, she was just calling, calling, calling every moment each day. Calling the name of Jesus, she (wrongly) thought it was the way.

I see a post that confirms my anecdotal observation.

Originally Posted by Trapped

I spent a little time scrolling through the other memorial videos for Benson. Ron Kangas is back, clearly having lost weight. He managed to get a nice slap down on all the saints by saying something like, "I have to be frank, but very few brothers and sisters in the church life are actually mature". So.....whose fault is that exactly? How much more "in the central lane" can they get at this point?

How are the old-timers supposed to take this? "Sorry, but you spent the last 45 or 50 years just calling, calling, calling the Name of Jesus, and now you are still not mature." Or the younger generations: "Okay, double down because it didn't work for the others. But if you're twice as desperate, maybe it'll work for you."

From "The Flesh and the Spirit" by Witness Lee

GROWING IN LIFE BY EATING JESUS

I have been a genuine, seeking Christian since 1925. I loved the Lord and the Bible so much, but for many years I never heard a message telling me that I have to grow in life. I heard message after message telling me that I had to do certain things or behave in a certain way. But no one told me that I need to grow, not to improve. No school can help you to grow. Every school is doing its best to help you to improve.

The main thing that good mothers do is to feed their children. In our homes the dining table is much more important than the desk. Every Lord’s Day we do not have a desk in front of us but a dining table, that is, the Lord’s table. I have traveled to many places and have been a guest in many homes. The first thing the host would care for is my eating. In many homes I did not have a desk, but in every home I had a dining table. This is because eating is more important than studying, writing, and reading.

So, the church members have been dutifully eating Jesus for decades, now they find out they're not mature, lacking growth in life, not much transformation?

Originally Posted by Ohio

I, of course, still believe that they all are genuine Christians, at least all the leaders I knew back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. Reading the NT carefully one can see that many Christian leaders will fail us, falling into sin, immorality, or financial corruption. Dangers abound. Beware of false teachers and prophets. We should be careful never to interpret these ones in scripture as fakes or non-Christians.

I probably shouldn't have said, "genuine Christians", but, "I got fooled - I felt that this was a safe and nurturing place for my Christian journey. It wasn't."

After years of 24/7 immersion, I became increasingly frustrated that my buried feelings, resentments and anxieties, along with my shame-based and compulsive behaviors, hadn't magically gone away, or even receded much. I met privately with the church elders, one by one, and bared myself, and each of them stonewalled, with some variation of "Just keep eating, just keep drinking." They were like automatons, unable to contemplate anything outside Ministry narratives. But I guess that's how they became elders.

I don't reject the notion that crying out to the Living God for salvation is worth doing. "Call on the Lord out of a pure heart" (2 Tim 2:22; cf Psa 51:10) and all that. But that presupposes things that are categorically eliminated in WL's message of, "Just eat and drink". Then decades later, to find out that just eating and just drinking, just didn't cut it. "It's so simple and easy, our worries flee away"... remember that? Sorry, not as simple and easy as we'd thought... sorry for the past 45 years...

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I, of course, still believe that they all are genuine Christians, at least all the leaders I knew back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. Reading the NT carefully one can see that many Christian leaders will fail us, falling into sin, immorality, or financial corruption.

Regularly I was reminded by LC and LSM leaders, and WL himself, that the Recovery was altogether holy, pure, godly, and absolutely free from any sort of financial, sinful, or moral corruption as we saw played out on the media.

Fast forward to the Midwest Quarantines, which really started behind the scenes after WL passed, and gained momentum after Y2K. Now we all had the internet, the old Bereans forum began, and even Plymouth Brethren writings were now available. The written accounts of a number of well-respected former members, like John Ingalls of Anaheim, were digitized and posted for internet availability. The number of honest and believable testimonies that became available during the quarantine was overwhelming.

It was a light shining in a dark place, the rotten spirit hidden in LSM past.

On several occasions WL told us all from the podium concerning John Ingalls that "People Change." Yes, they do. But it was not John Ingalls who changed. He was faithful unto death. It was WL who changed.

Christian leaders falling into sin will happen in "Christianity", but certainly not in the Recovery? To some degree it was just covered up better in the Recovery. You know the saying "cover the brothers"? It could be utilized to say cover the sinning brother. Not just in the local churches, but I have been in non-local churches where a "good brother" may be the receive covering or looking the other way. It takes the sisters to say, "No! This is unacceptable!" Then the leadership listens. Not in the local churches. It is too patriarchal. Voices of sisters is not truly regarded as members of the Body. Yes brothers will say sisters are members of the Body, but it is only lip service. Actions and words from the podium says otherwise.
It is also said what other Christian leaders would do, Witness Lee would not do. Was Witness Lee any different? From a business perspective, certainly not. For a time Witness Lee was able to cover it better. It could very well be the John Ingalls, Albert Knochs, and Bill Mallons of the recovery had no knowledge. Whereas the Titus Chus, Benson Phillips, Ray Gravers, Minoru Chens, and James Lees of the recovery did have some inkling and choose to look the other way. By the internet age it became much more difficult to continually cover Witness Lee. The curtain had been pulled back for all to see how corrupt the the recovery movement really was. Villains receive covering whereas victims are scorned. At best the recovery movement is a sect and at worst, it is a cult. Because I was taught Witness Lee was the modern day apostle Paul, how could you not call the recovery a cult?

[aron]

There's an app called ChatGPT, where users ask questions in a conversational style, and get an AI-generated answer, which is based off of scraping the internet (up till 2021) and then a program which predicts how people form language. It's kind of fun - you can repeat the question and it will generate a new answer each time (it's occasionally very wrong, so user beware).

I asked, "Who were the Lollards" and this was the answer

Originally Posted by ChatGPT

The Lollards were a group of religious reformers in England during the 14th and 15th centuries. They were followers of John Wycliffe, an English theologian who advocated for the translation of the Bible into English and criticized many of the practices and doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Lollards rejected the authority of the Pope and the clergy, and emphasized the importance of individual interpretation of the Bible. They also criticized many of the sacraments and rituals of the Church, and called for a simpler form of worship.

The Lollards were persecuted by the authorities, and many were burned at the stake for their beliefs. Despite this, their ideas continued to spread, and their influence can be seen in the later English Reformation.

I was struck by the phrase "emphasized the importance of individual interpretation of the Bible." The so-called Lord's Recovery of Witness Lee follows a standard Reformist/Protestant rubric, aligning with the above, except the individual interpretation of the Bible part. There, they've done a neat twist: they emphasize rather the importance of one individual's interpretation of the Bible. That individual is the Apostle of the Age.

Try to follow me here: the religious lineage says, "we emphasize the individual interpretation of the Bible." Luther, Wesley, or any trained believer could read the plain words and figure out for themselves what it meant, and how to apply. Then, one believer comes along, and says that his individual interpretation is that everyone has to be "one" with his individual interpretation. Get it? He uses his freedom to interpret, as a lever to remove everyone else's freedom to interpret. His freedom of speech negates that of everyone else.

Now, suddenly the RecV footnotes appear, that we all must be "absolutely identical", and "without any differences whatever". So, one Christian believer has used their freedom to interpret the Bible, as a tool to remove everyone else's freedom. It's a pretty neat maneuver, if I do say.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

... one Christian believer has used their freedom to interpret the Bible, as a tool to remove everyone else's freedom. It's a pretty neat maneuver, if I do say.

It's a neat maneuver, and frequently used, more often than it's users would want you to know. If multiple people out there are claiming to be the unique apostle of the age, by definition either all of them are wrong, or all but one are wrong. But they can't all be right.

Here's a church called Shincheonji Church of Jesus. They claim to have the anointed prophet for the present age, who like Witness Lee, had a special mountain top experience and now is the sole interpreter of the Bible. Like with Witness Lee, his freedom to interpret the Bible has taken away everyone else's. Or as Watchman Nee put it, everyone else must "get in line".

https://www.scjus.org/

They call their leader "The promised pastor".

https://www.scjus.org/promised-pastor/

It's seemingly all about Jesus, the Bible, and loving one another. But you can see the incessant references to the revealed teachings (i.e. proprietary revelations), the special out-called group affiliated with the teachings, and the special agent of God's will in the present age. At the core of his vision is that he is the sole repository of God's revealed will through the Bible today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SBvzUUwSvQ

It's uncanny, how closely this resembles Witness Lee's narrative, his teaching and his captive 'church'.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

...On several occasions WL told us all from the podium concerning John Ingalls that "People Change." Yes, they do. But it was not John Ingalls who changed. He was faithful unto death. It was WL who changed.

Not long after John Ingalls split from Lee, he visited some of us in a private home the Dallas area. During a break in the action, I reminded him of a message he gave in the "early days" in Dallas in which he said something like "even if 'Bro. Lee' would forsake 'this way', I will never...". John replied "I DID???" with his eyes really big.

We all laughed at him, remembering this classic John Ingalls expression! He was indeed true to his word...he was following the Lord and not Lee.

Although, based on Austin Sparks' Chapter 9, it seems that Lee was compromised from at least back in the '50's in Taipei. Rather than changing, Lee seems to have hidden his nature and revealed his "true ministry" strategically maybe after Nee's death. Norms of the Chinese culture may have influenced Lee's allegiance to Nee.

Nell

[aron]

There's a megachurch based out of Guadalajara Mexico, with over a million members, called La Luz del Mundo. Their leader is in prison for molesting minors, but they still hold that he's the apostle of the age.

https://lldm.org/

I look at these groups and they seem unhinged from Christianity and any semblance of native human common sense. How can anyone get caught up in something like this? Then I go, "Oh - I fell for the same thing."

From a BBC article in 2019, when the predatory actions of the supposed apostle first came to light.

Originally Posted by BBC

"It is the church with the most faithful among all those who rose in Mexico," explains Renee de la Torre, an anthropologist specializing in religion at the Center for Research andand Higher Studies in Social Anthropology (CIESAS). It arose in 1926 in the context of the Cristero War, a struggle between the Catholic Church and the Mexican State and precisely Jalisco, the state whose capital is Guadalajara, and was one of the most affected.

"La Luz del Mundo is part of a wave of native Christian churches that emerged in Latin America among very popular sectors. Of a messianic style with leaders who announced that they had been chosen to re-found the original Christian church and that they were the chosen people," says the researcher.

He explains that the hostility between the Catholics and the new converts made the latter want to live in a community. Thanks to the governor of that time, they got some land that at that time was on the outskirts of the city. The church sectioned off the land and offered it to its community so that they could buy in installments and build their houses. This is how this neighborhood called Hermosa Provincia became populated with "brothers". "One thing that doesn't exist in any other church in Mexico," de la Torre explains.

Other than being 1926 Mexico, how is this different from what happened in China in 1922, and after? The parallels are striking.

https://www.bbc.com/mundo/noticias-i...ional-61688059

https://www.bbc.com/mundo/noticias-i...ional-48521530

It's sort of like an astronomer looking at the heavens and seeing something 'out there', and realizing, "We're not alone." In this case, I look at these groups, and how widespread the "apostle of the age" scam is, and realize that it's widespread because it works. We're not alone.

[aron]

Sorry - one more - Iglesia Ni Cristo, established and run for over a century by Manalo family et al, now a global parachurch organization & multimedia corporation.

"Manalo—who is upheld by members to be the last messenger of God—was an act of divine providence and the fulfillment of biblical prophecy concerning the re-establishment of the original church of Christ in the Far East concurrent with the coming of the seventh seal marking the end of days."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iglesia_ni_Cristo

This was originated in the Philippines, circa 1914, then tracks in tandem with the Nee/Lee groups: exclusion, peculiarity, control, unwavering focus on the supposedly unique anointed messenger Felix Manalo. Christianity is a useful cover for recruitment, and then for control.

There's a lot of groups like this - they only have to convince you that this person is God's special messenger/apostle/prophet to interpret/reveal/unveil the Bible in these last days, and establish/recover/rebuild the original/true/genuine church. They'll manufacture some crisis situation, and get you to yield, and have an emotional overload/rush that you're in the group, then they can do what they want, and you'll go along. It's really disconcerting, how suggestive & pliable the human race is to manipulation & control mechanisms. I was there.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

[Witness Lee used] his freedom to interpret, as a lever to remove everyone else's freedom to interpret. His freedom of speech negates that of everyone else..

In my last few posts, we saw how this has been played out multiple times in the post-Protestant world: new religious groups which say they're Christian, and seem to have a strong interest in the Bible and its story of God's redemption in Jesus Christ. Yet their insistence that one individual's interpretation is the penultimate word, at the expense of everyone else's, creates a very non-Christian environment, and the church becomes a personality cult, a self-contained, self-referential pseudo-Christian world that shuts off the outside and gets stranger and stranger as the decades pass.

In the case of La Luz del Mundo, the current apostle Naason Garcia is in prison for the next 18 years, for perversions that would make the most permissive, liberal unbeliever recoil. Yet the group continues to regard him as apostle. No corrective mechanism is available.

In the case of the Shincheonji Church of Jesus, the leader, Lee Man-hee believes that he is the embodied Paraclete, the new John the Baptist, who is to usher in a new heaven and new earth.

In the case of Felix Manolo, group members hold that he's likewise the "last messenger" who's to bring the end of history. But he didn't bring the end of history - he died like everyone else. When he died, his son and then grandson were then to carry on the supposed vision of the age. The vision becomes circular and self-referential - that Felix Manolo is the last messenger with the vision of the age to restore the church. The vision of the age, is that this is the vision of the age. Round and round we go...

In Witness Lee, the "greatest apostle since Paul", when he died, there was to be no more apostle, but a group of "blended brothers" who carried on the supposed vision, that he was the greatest apostle, as Ron's promoting. Pretty much identical with Felix Manolo et al. To keep the vision going, the biblical basis is abandoned.

In every case, by focusing exclusively on the interpretation of one person, the collective goes into a ditch. Eventually, sin is tolerated, ignored, covered up. Everyone is expected to get in line, to obey the latest message, no matter how ill-founded. No one else can think, or act independently, "turn off your mind" we were advised.

[**What if there are other interpretations? In my case, reading the Bible I could see that "the economy of God" is probably "give to those who cannot repay you, and you will be rewarded in the resurrection." Jesus comes to this theme continually, and Paul spends two chapters on it (2 Cor 8 and 9), and continually references this in his other epistles, in his exhortations for the collections for the poor of Jerusalem. Yet where is the space for raising this possible interpretation, in the so-called Recovery?]

Also, Paul writes that there is no longer female or male, slave or free, Jew or Greek, but all are one in Christ. With Paul, you either believe into Jesus, or not. Oneness is based on faith, not on any other criteria, external or internal. Yet these groups that want Felix Manolo or Witness Lee or someone to be the Final Prophet, create these false dichotomies. If you are in agreement on the position of the supposed Messenger of God, you are in, you are one of Us. If you don't get the vision of the primacy of Brother X, then you are out, you are one of Them. This creates a false Us/Them narrative that Paul never wanted. This is the opposite of his "no Jew no Greek" rhetoric.

These groups have more in common with those who think Haile Selassie is incarnated Christ, or ones in the Unification Church, who think the same of Sun Myung Moon, than with Lutherans, Baptists or Congregationalists, or any other Protestants. These pseudo-Christian personality cults use the Protestant lineage as a recruiting basis, but once committed, new members find that it's not Protestant or really even Christian at all.

But by then, they're convinced by the incessant narrative that everyone else is doomed, nobody else cares about you but the group, there's no other place for you, you are "wrecked and ruined" (Recovery parlance) for anything else, etc etc. It gets weirder and weirder, less and less Biblical, yet you stay. The constant Us/Them rhetoric cuts off avenues of escape.

**the "economy of God" idea is a sidebar, but shows how only allowing one person to interpret the Bible cuts us off from our God-given gift of thinking for ourselves. The supposed revelation of the supposed oracle of God shuts us off from the recovered Protestant tenet of every person being able to read the Bible for themselves, and discern its meaning.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

In my last few posts, we saw how this has been played out multiple times in the post-Protestant world: new religious groups which say they're Christian, and seem to have a strong interest in the Bible and its story of God's redemption in Jesus Christ. Yet their insistence that one individual's interpretation is the penultimate word, at the expense of everyone else's, creates a very non-Christian environment, and the church becomes a personality cult, a self-contained, self-referential pseudo-Christian world that shuts off the outside and gets stranger and stranger as the decades pass.

I completely agree with this. Digging deeper into the NT record, Apostle Paul never become anything like the MOTA, the oracle, the pope, etc.

Yes, he rebuked Peter in Antioch for his hypocrisy, yet he also went to Jerusalem to determine whether whether he had run in vain. (Gal 2.2) Yes, he did receive revelations as the other Apostles, but that thorn in his side kept him from being lifted up. (2 Cor. 12.7) Yes, Paul spoke regularly to the churches, but he was with the saints night and day in tears and all humility, (Acts 20.18-20) and not as one who loved to use the bully pulpit to "put others in their place," and so paranoid of his position as to prevent others from also having a ministry. Yes, he received offerings from the saints, taking forethought for all things honorable in the sight of men, yet not as others we know of who peddled the word of God for base gain, filthy lucre, or payment of his own business debts.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Digging deeper into the NT record, Apostle Paul never become anything like the MOTA, the oracle, the pope, etc.

For me, the definitive NT moment of Paul v/v the original apostles is in his account in Galatians. There, Paul is recognized as having responsibility for outreach to the Gentile.

Galatians 2:6 As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message. 7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised. 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.

Here, Paul sets up his apostleship, and circumscribes it as one of outreach. By his own writing, he's not anything to be described as MOTA. Later, he returned from his outreach mission on Pentecost, bringing alms for his nation (Acts 24:17; cf Gal 2:10). Peter, by his speech in Acts 2 on a previous Pentecost, was "apostle to the circumcised", proclaiming the Good News (gospel) to the Jewish race, many who were living abroad.

To me that's the vision of the age: the resurrection of Jesus. In the narratives of Witness Lee and Lee Man-Hee and other self-styled prophets and apostles, the vision is typically centered on themselves, and their own mountain-top experiences, not the resurrection of Jesus. Oneness in their groups subsequently depends upon the degree of submission to their vision and their purpose. All of this is quite contrary to the gospel preached by Peter and Paul.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/06/asia/...hnk/index.html

One key for my understanding the spirit behind the Watchman Nee/Witness Lee phenomena is that they're not unique, but are found among a variety of similar ones, in which charismatic post-Protestant leaders created sects which are arguably not Christian at all. The groups take great pains to appear Christian, because this gives them the patina of legitimacy, and a solid recruiting base.

But when you get into the actual phenomena themselves, they're antagonistic to the gospel preached by Peter and Paul. "Love one another" becomes "obey without question". The incessant Us/Them narrative alienates and isolates group members from family and other Christians. The Bible is a prop in their passion play: heavily used when convenient, and then discarded, ignored, or contravened when unhelpful to their vision of primacy.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by aron

Sorry - one more -

How about this one: "church of the living word", now "living word fellowship". Here is someones commentary:

https://johnrobertstevens.wordpress....obert-stevens/

[aron]

Regarding Ron Kangas' assertion that Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since Paul, I pointed out in post #78 that multiple post-Protestant groups claim this for their leadership. Even, Sincheonji Church of Jesus uses the phrase: "In every age, God sends one leader with the vision for the church in that age." Of course, in the Shincheonji Church of Jesus, that one unquestioned leader is Lee Man-hee, along with his revelation of the New Heaven New Earth.

But by definition, there can't be multiple valid claims to have the one vision for an age, or likewise to one apostle/revelator/oracle for that vision and age. There are then two possibilities here: either they're all frauds, or all but one is a fraud. They can't all be true: just like the New Testament with Jesus, there may have been multiple claims to Messiahship, but there could only be one true Messiah, by definition.

Assume Ron Kangas' argument that God gives one person per age the vision of that age. So, in his version, the final version includes the stipulation that "I have the vision of the age", and subsequently that self-styled oracle dies, and the age turns (!!) and there are no longer any spiritual giants left. That's what we were told in 1997 when WL passed. As time goes on, in order to prop up "the vision", things get odder and odder, and biblical pretense is all but abandoned.

Never mind (they tell us) that there's no biblical basis, and even the OT "types and shadows" the wordsmiths typically fall back on can't support the latest "turn of the age" idea... BP, RK & the Blendeds took over, post WL. Then at some point, RK says that since Paul there's been no such church leader, and based on the person and character of the Greatest Apostle, there's clearly no peer in sight.

Ok... so I randomly found 4 other candidates for Greatest Apostle, aka Minister of the Age, or MOTA, some of whom look (ahem) a lot like WN & WL. Assuming there is such, which is genuine, and which are frauds? Forget theology for the moment, just look at their person, constitution, and character. First off, we can disallow the one who's in prison for molesting young women and girls. I know that his fervent followers say they're being persecuted for their faith and their testimony, but I question the basis of their faith or their testimony.

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...angeles-prison

Same with Nee - excommunicated multiple times by his own (!!) hand-picked lieutenants for ethical malfeasance, restored by Witness Lee's machinations - "How did you feel" when you excommunicated him, WL asked - then finally admitting in court to making pornographic films. Too many glaring issues here for MOTA-hood.

Same with Lee - nepotism, shunting church members' savings into for-profit business run by his children, then asking them to consider it a gift, when the promised "35% return on investment"(!!) never materialized, and even the original "investment" itself had long vanished. Unqualified to oversee a NT-based local church gathering, much less MOTA-hood (unless part of the "vision of the age" is "cover the MOTA", but you can see how absolutely horrific that gets immediately).

Now we've thinned the ranks... we've got Felix Manolo and Lee Man-Hee as remaining aspirants. Again, assuming there's actually one vision per age, ignoring theology, and just looking at their character & person, which of these two proposed apostles has the Genuine Vision and the Genuine Restored Church? The whole thing gets murkier, the more one examines them... neither looks promising... both act peculiar, with multiple 'red flags' signifying probable cultic activity and mindset...

I'll leave it with this: we typically don't see these self-styled revelators coming out of the Orthodox Churches. There, precedent set by previous generations restrains the madness of the would-be oracle of God, or at least keeps them from gaining sizable followings. It's with the spiritual heirs of Martin Luther that it seems to blow up into collective madness. Back to my first point: that the "each can read and interpret the Bible for themselves" has a clear downside: what if one's interpretation of the Bible is that they're the MOTA, with the vision of the age, and everyone else should get in line (per WN)?

In the Orthodox churches, they can't get much traction, but in the fragmented post-Lutheran world, you get these pseudo-Christian ministries that feign orthodoxy, but are quite otherwise. But by the time the leader is in jail for crimes, like La Luz del Mundo, it's already hit critical mass hysteria, and it's too late for rationality - hundreds of thousands supplicants traveling to Guadalajara to pray for their blessed leader who's being martyred for his Vision. The LSM is the same - by the time Daystar hit, they said, "He's God's anointed, don't question the MOTA". Today, if you ask for WL bona fides, they'll point to global training centres, multimedia websites, thousands of messages, hundreds of titles published, dozens of churches assembled, as if any of that meant validity. If that were truly the case, the Mormons would win and Brigham Young would be MOTA.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

But by definition, there can't be multiple valid claims to have the one vision for an age, or likewise to one apostle/revelator/oracle for that vision and age. There are then two possibilities here: either they're all frauds, or all but one is a fraud. They can't all be true: just like the New Testament with Jesus, there may have been multiple claims to Messiahship, but there could only be one true Messiah, by definition.

Amen to this. It was my own personal study of the Plymouth Brethren 20 years ago that exposed to me the MOTA fraud. Supposedly they were our spiritual forbears, or so I was told for 30 years. But we got a problem here.

If WN was actually the "legitimate" successor of John Darby, then why doesn't any of these Exclusive Brethren know about this? How can Nee and Lee be MOTA's when we learned all about MOTA's from these Brethren?

From one of their websites: "Bruce D. Hales is the current 'Beloved Leader', the 'Man of God', the 'Elect Vessel', the 'Minister of the Lord in the Recovery', the 'CEO' who 'cannot fail' and has absolute ... " Notice how similar the jargon is.

Like I said, this MOTA thing is spelled S-C-A-M.

Jesus said, "let no one deceive you."

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."~Ron Kangas

"Since John, according to the will of Jesus, directly sees and hears the explanation of everything recorded in Revelation, John's testimony is the only testimony regarding Revelation that is true"(p. 26)

"Apart from Jesus, John is the only other one who ascends into and descends from heaven to testify about what he sees and hears. 'What must happen after these things' refers to all the events John sees in the spiritual kingdom of heaven. In other words, John sees all the events described in Revelation 4-22, including when the spiritual throne of God described in Revelation 4 returns to unite with God's people in the physical world... a pastor like Apostle John testifies about what he hears in the spiritual heaven, just as Jesus did at the time of his First Coming." (p. 97)

"What does it mean for John to eat the open book? It means he completely understands the content and writes it on his heart. When New John eats God's book, he becomes a walking Bible." (p. 220)

"Just as Jesus testified about the fulfillment of the Old Testament, the New John testifies about the fulfilment of the New Testament. The angel Jesus sends from the spiritual world for the churches reveals all the events in the book of Revelation to the new John. This pastor becomes the messenger of Jesus and testifies on Jesus' behalf according to what he has seen and heard." (p. 561)

"Which pastor should believers follow? Should we follow a general pastor who learns the Bible incompletely from a conventional theological seminary, who is ordained by men, and who becomes a pastor capable of preaching only within his own denomination? Instead, should we not follow the true promised pastor anointed directly by Jesus himself (Rev 1:17-19), the pastor who sees God's kingdom, his spiritual kingdom (Rev 4), the pastor who receives and eats the open book (Rev 10), and the pastor to whom an angel is sent to show and explain all the events of Revelation (Rev 22)?"

From, The Physical Fulfillment of Revelation by Lee Man-Hee

There are a number of parallels, here, to the Watchman Nee/Witness Lee phenomena. As I said in post #86, the post-Lutheran world allows for individual interpretation of Scripture, which in some extreme cases will then include those who say they're the New Paul (Witness Lee and promoters), or the New John (Lee Man-Hee et al). All these so-called revelations are angling towards some variant of "I'm the greatest living disciple of Jesus", which implies that all believers should be discipled to that new MOTA. But this idea of having a MOTA violates the spiritual ABCs taught in the gospels!

Mark 9:33,34 Then He came to Capernaum. And when He was in the house He asked them, "What was it you disputed among yourselves on the road?" But they kept silent, for on the road they had disputed among themselves who would be greatest.

This, 'I am greatest since Paul' and 'I am the new Apostle John' is focused on self, not on the kingdom, aka 'the least of these my brothers'. It therefore violates the basic tenets of the gospel. The current disciples of Witness Lee or Lee Man-Hee aren't capable of seeing this, any more than the disciples of Naason Joaquin Garcia can grasp that he isn't the modern day Prophet of God - even though he's in jail for the most heinous of crimes!

Those who get enmeshed into the self-reinforcing system built by the would-be "greatest follower of Jesus" often lose the ability to get external bearings, and subsequently find the way out. But we can warn those who are without, on the college campus and in the shopping mall, that when they're approached by disciples of these supposedly Great Men, that the spirit they're seeing is not of freedom but subjection.

Originally Posted by Ohio

If WN was actually the "legitimate" successor of John Darby, then why doesn't any of these Exclusive Brethren know about this? How can Nee and Lee be MOTA's when we learned all about MOTA's from these Brethren?

From one of their websites: "Bruce D. Hales is the current 'Beloved Leader', the 'Man of God', the 'Elect Vessel', the 'Minister of the Lord in the Recovery', the 'CEO' who 'cannot fail' and has absolute ... " Notice how similar the jargon is.

Like I said, this MOTA thing is spelled S-C-A-M.

Jesus said, "let no one deceive you."

What's so fascinating about these related phenomena is that when you are without, you can see clearly that it's a self-oriented scam and fraud. The gap between the claims and reality is so glaring. But once you are in, and agree to be 'trained' or 'discipled', and shut off outside sources, there's no method of orientation, or self-correction. The only available path is that from the mind of the self-proclaimed MOTA, a room full of mirrors. Once the multimedia web sites and international outreach and campus teams and training centres are established, there's no need for external sources. Everything has either been subsumed by the Vision of God's Oracle, or is negated and rejected. So these strange little religious worlds are built up, these little Kingdoms of Self, that look absurd to everyone but those who are within them.

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

That is one of the biggest loads of bovine scat that I have ever came across! Maybe some studying of real history outside the Witness and Watchman should be ordered for this individual, but highly unlikely to happen.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

That is one of the biggest loads of bovine scat that I have ever came across! Maybe some studying of real history outside the Witness and Watchman should be ordered for this individual, but highly unlikely to happen.

Anyone remotely associated with LSM knows how WL and Blended associates are simply “peddling the Word of God” for base gain, i.e. their vast real estate holdings. Neither Jesus Christ nor any of the Apostles ever owned a home.

And worse, they have a long history of violating the 9th Commandment by “bearing false witness” against many of their former colleagues like John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Titus Chu, John So, etc. (This list is extremely long.)

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

Within the context of 1 Corinthians 1:13, Is Christ divided? Was Witness Lee crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Witness Lee? Not just from Ron Kangas, but many in the local churches strike me in this fashion making the ministry of Witness Lee an emphasis of division. "If you are not here for Witness Lee and his ministry, then you might as well not be here."
I say let there be no divisions. If a ministry divides, set it aside.

I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 1 Corinthians 1:10-17

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

If this statement wasn't so sad, it would be funny. The magnitude of the gravity of this statement is such that I believe it is time to warn all current members of the Local Church of Witness Lee to seriously consider leaving the movement, and find a healthy place to worship the Lord and fellowship with genuine believers. I would especially encourage all young people and new believers to take steps to extract themselves as soon as possible. With Ron Kangas at the helm, and others just like him there in Anaheim, things are likely to get a lot worse. Without true repentance, personality cults like the Local Church tend to get worse over time. May God have mercy.
-

Going back to the beginning of this thread, where is Ron Kangas saying Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul?
I believe Ron or any LC brother at one time did compare Witness Lee to apostle Paul. It is a fact I heard with my own ears going back to the early 1980's. It was from a LC brother I first heard the comparison.
In current time, how many believe Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since Paul? Would they also agree Witness Lee is the oracle of God as he claimed to be?
I would say he was neither an oracle nor an apostle, but just a gifted brother as many from his era.

Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. Revelation 2:5