YouTube Channel - The Lord's Recovery Unchained

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by zeek

Good evening. Okay--so, you advocate throwing out everything Witness Lee taught. Following your logic, Witness Lee taught that God existed, therefore, it should be thrown out. "Just disregard it." If one does that, one becomes an an atheist.

Bro.Ohio has often lamented that people after they leave the LC become atheists. Maybe it's because they didn't do the hard work of parsing truth from untruth in what they received in the local church. They threw out the baby (whatever kernals of truth they received in the local church) with the bathwater of "leaven" as you put it.

It seems to me, what must be done is to discern spiritual reality from unreality and that takes the grace of God. Jesus said "blessed are the poor in spirit". That's why I evoked a spirit of humility in proposing to undertake the task, which is, as I understand it, the mission of this forum.

As far as relevance to the topic of this thread, I think that is what the creator of the The Lord's Recovery Unchained videos is endeavoring to do. His basic assumption that members of the local churches ought to question the products of the Living Stream Ministry because the leading brothers admit that Lee was not infallible is a good one. If the "saints" in the LCs had been allowed to question Lee's ministry, perhaps the abuses could have been avoided. Maybe they still can for those who are participating in the LC now.

Ah, I see now how you are reading the "disregard" thing.

I don't mean "if Witness Lee taught it, then disregard it because it is automatically false." What I mean is, and this is my approach, "it's irrelevant if there is anything Witness Lee happened to get right". Whatever Witness Lee taught, I don't care anymore. I have seen more than enough leaven in his ministry to not give two brain cells of my time towards giving him credit. I'm not saying "disregard the good". I'm saying "Witness Lee's relationship to the good is insignificant".

I care what the Bible teaches. Whether Witness Lee happened to get it right is irrelevant to my life. He is an insignificant force as far as the sum total of Christian truth out there.

Since Witness Lee is responsible for, at a minimum, hundreds of lies that are in my brain, it is important to me to discern what he got wrong so I don't believe lies anymore. But what he got right is disconnected from the fact that he taught it. It's kind of like the "a broken clock is right twice a day". Who cares? It's broken. It should be thrown out, and bring in a new clock that is right all day long instead. Witness Lee's ministry is, as far as I'm concerned, a broken system of error masquerading as an angel of light, to mix some New Testament metaphors, and it is not to Witness Lee's credit if he happened to miss the chance at twisting something and actually got it right now and then.

Maybe this distinction isn't a big enough one for some people, and that's okay. It's enough for me.

Regarding Galatians 2:20, are you saying that Christians attribute Christ living in a person to Paul's experience only, and that they don't take the step of realizing that "Christ lives in me" applies to them also?

Topic related - I agree that the premise of the TLRU channel is an excellent one -- The co-workers have said Witness Lee's ministry isn't immune from error. And they have even said they will change if it can be shown he's wrong. So there shouldn't be a problem if people make the effort to figure out where he was wrong so they can change. He connected several things and made testing the ministry the most reasonable response to all those things, rather than what the coworkers would try to call it as an attack or a "reckless casting aside of the ministry", etc. How can anyone argue against that reasonable response without revealing they don't care about the truth of the Bible? It's essentially a "put up or shut up" to the local church, and it basically gives the co-workers' stamp of approval to do so. It's like, the only way a saint in the local church could ever be given the freedom to examine the ministry -- "look, the coworkers said it is okay, so it's okay!" It's kind of like what Paul did in Acts 17 - he spoke to people using their own frame of reference. And yes, if more saints in the local church could do this, simply be free to discuss and disagree, many abuses would be prevented. I hope it reaches more of those in somehow, and I hope more and more are released to speak out in all kinds of ways.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I care what the Bible teaches. Whether Witness Lee happened to get it right is irrelevant to my life. He is an insignificant force as far as the sum total of Christian truth out there.

Since Witness Lee is responsible for, at a minimum, hundreds of lies that are in my brain, it is important to me to discern what he got wrong so I don't believe lies anymore. But what he got right is disconnected from the fact that he taught it. It's kind of like the "a broken clock is right twice a day". Who cares? It's broken. It should be thrown out, and bring in a new clock that is right all day long instead. Witness Lee's ministry is, as far as I'm concerned, a broken system of error masquerading as an angel of light, to mix some New Testament metaphors, and it is not to Witness Lee's credit if he happened to miss the chance at twisting something and actually got it right now and then.

Maybe this distinction isn't a big enough one for some people, and that's okay. It's enough for me.

Trapped

I think we all would agree with this. If a friend asked me a question about some topic in The Bible, I would never point them to the teachings of WL, even if his teaching on the topic was helpful. It’s just too risky.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think we all would agree with this. If a friend asked me a question about some topic in The Bible, I would never point them to the teachings of WL, even if his teaching on the topic was helpful. It’s just too risky.

I agree I wouldn't point a someone unfamilar with Lee to him. But, that isn't the case with us, and someone who was in the LR may have learned valuable truth there. Let's say for example that they accepted Christ as savior or received the teaching of the indwelling Spirit or other spiritual truths there. Should they then reject those teachings because they came from Lee? I say no, because as you have pointed out elsewhere some do exactly that when they leave the LR and fall into complete unbelief. I think we should be helping them to see that truth is truth regardless of the instrument through which it comes.And that's especially hard to do when you've been wounded by that instrument. You have to be able to get past the pain and the disillusion and resentment. It really can't be done without the grace of God. As far as human intervention is concerned it may be a Matthew 17:21 kind of situation.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by zeek

Should they then reject those teachings because they came from Lee?

I think you mean “because they learned them from Lee”. None of those teachings “came” from Lee. Instruments of truth aren’t the creators of Truth, truth doesn’t come from the instruments. Anything that is truth that Witness Lee taught did not come from him.

Everyone should examine why they believe certain things, is it because Witness Lee said it or is it because it’s Truth? In the Recovery we were conditioned to believe something because Witness Lee said it. That rationale should 100% be thrown out.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I agree I wouldn't point a someone unfamilar with Lee to him. But, that isn't the case with us, and someone who was in the LR may have learned valuable truth there. Let's say for example that they accepted Christ as savior or received the teaching of the indwelling Spirit or other spiritual truths there. Should they then reject those teachings because they came from Lee? I say no, because as you have pointed out elsewhere some do exactly that when they leave the LR and fall into complete unbelief. I think we should be helping them to see that truth is truth regardless of the instrument through which it comes.And that's especially hard to do when you've been wounded by that instrument. You have to be able to get past the pain and the disillusion and resentment. It really can't be done without the grace of God. As far as human intervention is concerned it may be a Matthew 17:21 kind of situation.

And this forces us to recognize the extreme nature of much of WL. Many just vomit out everything even remotely related to religion and the Bible, leading a totally secular life. Without the will or the means, that’s all they can do. But real healing takes work, doesn’t it? And God has promised us sufficient grace.

As I departed, I faced the haunting question, “how did something so good become so bad?” Over time I discerned that the “so good” was really Jesus and my LC back then, and the “so bad” was how WL and his successors had “leavened the whole lump.”

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And this forces us to recognize the extreme nature of much of WL. Many just vomit out everything even remotely related to religion and the Bible, leading a totally secular life. Without the will or the means, that’s all they can do. But real healing takes work, doesn’t it? And God has promised us sufficient grace.

As I departed, I faced the haunting question, “how did something so good become so bad?” Over time I discerned that the “so good” was really Jesus and my LC back then, and the “so bad” was how WL and his successors had “leavened the whole lump.”

I can understand why people reach a summary judgment about the local church because they want psychological closure. But I haven’t reached that point. Perhaps that’s because it involves people who I understand as souls who I may only know them as surfaces whereas God knows their hearts.

I haven’t yet watched the latest unchained video but I intend to because I read that it’s about church kids and while I wasn’t a church kid myself, all three of my daughters were born into the local church so perhaps they would get something out of it. If I think so after watching it, I’ll send them a link. Have you seen it?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I can understand why people reach a summary judgment about the local church because they want psychological closure. But I haven’t reached that point. Perhaps that’s because it involves people who I understand as souls who I may only know them as surfaces whereas God knows their hearts.

I haven’t yet watched the latest unchained video but I intend to because I read that it’s about church kids and while I wasn’t a church kid myself, all three of my daughters were born into the local church so perhaps they would get something out of it. If I think so after watching it, I’ll send them a link. Have you seen it?

I looked at the channel. About a dozen videos. Started to watch one, but stopped.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I looked at the channel. About a dozen videos. Started to watch one, but stopped.

Why did you stop?