Art Katz on True Fellowship

TLFisher · 11-20-2009, 07:18 PM

Here are some quotes from Art Katz on True Fellowship

Fellowship today sort of has the ring of popcorn. “Fellowship. Well, we’ll have fellowship.” That means a little back slap. Here’s what it means, “that they may all be one.” Its not sublimating your differences and swallowing them down, or by concealing issues or turning your back on them. It means by totally giving oneself over to the issues of truth. It means expressing what’s in your heart, speaking the truth in love and exhorting one another daily while it is yet today. It means confrontation. It means bringing to the surface and to the light the things that are concealed in the dark rather than swallowing them down and looking the wrong way and hoping by a little glib smile and a slap on the back to pass them over!

“Those that believed were together and had all things common and sold their possessions and goods and parted them to all men as every man had need and they continuing daily with one accord,,,,” “Continuing daily!” What ever made Christianity a Sunday venture? It’s a distortion, a caricature and a grotesque that the great faith that is daily in the intention of God has been made a Sunday addendum. There is no way that mere Sundays, even punctuated with a mid-week Bible study can attain to this glory. It’s a daily thing or it’s nothing.

“……. Your ministry is not some kind of individual virtuoso that you have independent of other men. Your ministry is to flow out of My Life and My Life flows out of the relationship of the saints.”
Put that in your spiritual pipe and smoke it. I know we’d rather have it the other way. We’d rather have individual ministries based on our individual virtuosity and ability, wholly independent of men. We’d like to enjoy the benefits that accrue us through ministry privately, then on Sunday be great sports and spend an hour or two with the saints. That’s what the flesh wants. But it is not the way of God. True New Testament ministry of the kind that is penetrating and that affects time and eternity must grow out of His life and the life comes out of the relationships. There’s an extraordinary organic connection between the expression of the ministry and the foundation of life in koinonia out of which it must come. God has seen to it. Anything else is aberration, distortion and contradiction from the New Testament example of God.

The issue of truth is the issue of life. We have as much life as we have truth. They are one and the same, We have as much light as we have life. We have as much fellowship as we have light, as much life saving witness as we have fellowship. “That the world might know that the Father has sent me, because you’re one.” Shall I repeat this formula?
The issue of truth is the issue of life: not truth academically, but truth inwrought in the relationships of God’s people. There is no relationship except in the light as He is in the light, which is truth. We cannot have things concealed, hidden, unexpressed or things ignored because they’re too painful, because they’re too demanding or because “who wants to exhort one another daily?” It’s not a pleasant activity and what if it’ll not be received? What if you’ll be misunderstood? What if you’re wrong in your assessment? Well it’s safer it’s easier not to bother. Step by step because we don’t bother, because we don’t see, because we don’t defend one another in light and in truth the deceitfulness of sin takes over.

http://www.blendedbody.com/_cl/_John21/index.htm

Terry

TLFisher · 12-19-2009, 12:45 PM

"The governement of God is more than bureaucracy; it has to do with order, but it also has to do with values, justice, righteousness, equity, peace, mercy, compassion, and love. The world governments know nothing of these things. They are predicated on power, advantage, and ambition, but the governement of God is life-giving. It is sanity and health for all mankind. We need to understand the church in the context of these things, or else we will think that the church is just a place where our needs are met, and services are conducted. That kind of mentality will not prepare us for anything. It does not move us toward anything , and therefore we do not even understand our own identity as the church in the nations."
Page 8 The Principalities and Powers

Terry

TLFisher · 12-20-2009, 07:01 PM

What if requires the possibility of being wrong, mistaken, or presumptuous. When one never considers something could be true, they have invited deception through their complacency.
In Acts chapter 5 Peter saw through the deception of Ananias and Sapphira.

1. But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2. and kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4. While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God.

Willingness of truth is to bear "what if"? Truth requires courage. In 1 Timothy 3:15 we see the church is the pillar and base of the truth.

However painful or costly truth is, in this age of deception no one is exempt from being deceived.

Terry

OBW · 12-20-2009, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

What if requires the possibility of being wrong, mistaken, or presumptuous. When one never considers something could be true, they have invited deception through their complacency.
In Acts chapter 5 Peter saw through the deception of Ananias and Sapphira.

1. But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2. and kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4. While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God.

Willingness of truth is to bear "what if"? Truth requires courage. In 1 Timothy 3:15 we see the church is the pillar and base of the truth.

However painful or costly truth is, in this age of deception no one is exempt from being deceived.

Terry

There are a lot of possibilities from this passage. But I do not see how "what if" comes out of it. I guess it just takes more of the message/writing to understand.

TLFisher · 12-21-2009, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

But I do not see how "what if" comes out of it. I guess it just takes more of the message/writing to understand.

Greetings, my consideration is a partial truth constitutes a lie. This is what Ananias did. When he and Sapphira sold their property, they tried to pass the partial as the whole. This was a deception and a lie. Peter saw through the deception and you can read what his response to them was; "thou has not lied unto men, but unto God."

Consider LSM/DCP rhetoric. With each turmoil, the partial truth was intended to pass as the whole. Instead of taking the course of partial truths, the "recovery" could and still can take the path we read in Nehemiah 5:6-13. Nehemiah was one who was couragous enough to confront the nobles and rulers.

5:6
And I was very angry when I heard their cry and these words.
5:7
Then I consulted with myself, and contended with the nobles and the rulers, and said unto them, Ye exact usury, every one of his brother. And I held a great assembly against them.
5:8
And I said unto them, We after our ability have redeemed our brethren the Jews, that were sold unto the nations; and would ye even sell your brethren, and should they be sold unto us? Then held they their peace, and found never a word.
5:9
Also I said, The thing that ye do is not good: ought ye not to walk in the fear of our God, because of the reproach of the nations our enemies?
5:10
And I likewise, my brethren and my servants, do lend them money and grain. I pray you, let us leave off this usury.
5:11
Restore, I pray you, to them, even this day, their fields, their vineyards, their oliveyards, and their houses, also the hundredth part of the money, and of the grain, the new wine, and the oil, that ye exact of them.
5:12
Then said they, We will restore them, and will require nothing of them; so will we do, even as thou sayest. Then I called the priests, and took an oath of them, that they would do according to this promise.
5:13
Also I shook out my lap, and said, So God shake out every man from his house, and from his labor, that performeth not this promise; even thus be he shaken out, and emptied. And all the assembly said, Amen, and praised Jehovah. And the people did according to this promise.

Terry

TLFisher · 12-26-2009, 12:05 PM

Art's word on False Prophets is meant just for prophets, but when ministers who are in error. The basis for Art's message is on Jeremiah 23:14-40.

A deeper sinfulness is "willingness to be spoken as oracle or prophet of the hour." What needs to be said is "you're saying too much. I'm undeserving of that acknowledgment."

We aren't guilty of what we speak, but also guilty in our silence when we should speak.

False prophets/ministers always speak of positive things. "They affirm us, confirm us, and are pleasant to hear."
The Lord's word is other than our own. Who has an ear to hear? The Lord's word leads us to a deeper level of consecration. The Lord's word is adjusting. Quite contrary to the positive speaking that is pleasant to hear. Our flesh will be offended and adjusted by the Lord's speaking. Who will risk receiving the word which will require a loss? There will be a price.

Would you rather hear a word that we'll be co-kings or would you rather hear a word that adjusts our relationship to the Lord?
Wicked is always in contrast to the righteous. The word wicked implies those who know better and have had opportunity, but don't. Wicked are the ones who call a true prophet as being false.

Presumption is to think they are speaking for God. It is deception. An unbridled arrogance to claim God's oracle. Though it is accepted as if nothing is required.

To maintain integrity requires sticking out obtusely. There is a price to pay to guard your spirit and your heart.

This message can be heard at:
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/m...titleA&show=20
or
www.mendingministry.com

Terry

TLFisher · 01-13-2010, 11:42 PM

This next message by Art Katz is based on John 5:41 and Luke 6:22. God wants us to seek His honor alone. If we are those who give honor only to God, expect dishonor in this life. To receive honor from men is as Art spoke to "negate apostolic integrity". To speak truth and absoluteness is to offend our want for honor, esteem, and recognition.

Consider the prophets. They were hated because honor was not sought. Prophets not seeking honor caused resentment and opposition to be raised up.

Terry

OBW · 01-14-2010, 06:15 AM

I have not listened to the messages, but only observed your comments. It would seem that these messages are extending the state of the prophet beyond those who were, or sought to be, prophets.

Now your comments did suggest at one point that he said this was specifically for prophets, but the way you immediately mentioned ministers was not clear that he was excluding them or including them. Or whether he was initially excluding them but essentially including them anyway.

The task of an OT prophet was primarily to speak against ongoing error in Israel and/or Judea. They were not the equivalent of ministers who speak all of the word of God, but those who speak what we might call correcting words, warnings and exhortations. Surely no one is going to like being told they are in error. So if a prophet is getting too many kudos, then it might be a sign that his message is not right.

But a minister, teacher, shepherd, etc., is constantly spurring us on to greater heights. As we realize the benefits that we receive from God, we may acknowledge the human vessel(s) that are used to bring those benefits. While the minister should never consider that he, himself provided the benefit, he is worthy of his "wages," in whatever form they are. In this last message it would seem that AK is so concerned about anyone being spoken well of that he is extending the "no honor" thought from the prophets to all ministers of every kind.

So if the idea with the prophets is that they should not only seek no honor, but should expect to be despised, then what is the parallel that makes ministers despised by those to whom they minister? He probably did not intend to take it that far. But on what basis did he take it as far as he did?

Surely all of the servants of God who minister to us should not be doing it for personal gain or the approval of man. But if they do their "job" well, these may come. Righteous people will acknowledge others who serve them well. The key is not in rejecting any honor that comes their way, but in 1) not seeking the honor of man and 2) accepting it humbly as you simultaneously acknowledge that the truly faithful one is God.

You may have only mentioned certain portions that stood out to you, but it seems that AK is almost sterilizing "true fellowship" to the point that we are merely disinterested tools being used by God to have emotionless discourse with one another.

I would surely expect that AK should not expect much of a following since he seems to think that his message should be a thorn in the sides of everyone. Or is it merely a thorn in the sides of those outside of his fellowship to whom he speaks as a prophet? There is something almost Lee-like in this position.

I may be too harsh since I do not have the luxury of time to actually listen to the messages but must rely on your brief comments. But even if I am off base, it seems that is what stuck out to you to write about.

Looking at this view in terms of the LC, it would seem that Lee would like this notion. All of the followers would be very careful to avoid seeking the approval of man, so no one would try to step out of line. But despite the apparent disconnect, everyone is following and praising the one leader for bringing this "rich ministry." Sort of tells why Lee didn't consider any as being peers. They were too busy staying "unworthy".

PriestlyScribe · 01-14-2010, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

I have not listened to the messages, but only observed your comments.

OBW, if you don't have time to listen but prefer to read - check out Art's many documents, free for download at ArtKatzMinistries.org

Below is another quicker way to access the print version of "True Fellowship":
''True Fellowship'' (Is Our Practice of Fellowship Genuine?) Part A Part B Print Version Larger Font

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

So if the idea with the prophets is that they should not only seek no honor, but should expect to be despised, then what is the parallel that makes ministers despised by those to whom they minister? He probably did not intend to take it that far. But on what basis did he take it as far as he did?

I think Art took it that far based upon the fact that the faithful slaves of Christ are told to expect the same amount, if not more so, the rejection and lack of honor from men...

Mat 10:25 It is sufficient for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the Master of the house 1 aBeelzebul, how much more those of His household!

P.S.

OBW · 01-14-2010, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

I think Art took it that far based upon the fact that the faithful slaves of Christ are told to expect the same amount, if not more so, the rejection and lack of honor from men...

With respect to rejection from the outside, I would agree. But such rejection is not presumed from the inside.

But there is no reason to expect that God-fearing people who are getting excellent ministry should not let those ministers hear about it. Surely the ministers should not do it for the purpose of accolades, but there is nothing that suggests they should go out of their way to avoid any.

TLFisher · 01-16-2010, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

But a minister, teacher, shepherd, etc., is constantly spurring us on to greater heights.
So if the idea with the prophets is that they should not only seek no honor, but should expect to be despised, then what is the parallel that makes ministers despised by those to whom they minister? He probably did not intend to take it that far. But on what basis did he take it as far as he did?

I would surely expect that AK should not expect much of a following since he seems to think that his message should be a thorn in the sides of everyone. Or is it merely a thorn in the sides of those outside of his fellowship to whom he speaks as a prophet? There is something almost Lee-like in this position.

In Art's messages "Against False Prophets" or "Seek not honor from Men", he was warning against ministers who may speak falsely or ones seeking honor. Ministers should lead us in our pursuit of the Lord through our Christian walk. We see this in 1 Corinthians 3:6 where Paul wrote, "I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth." Paul is acknowleging his function and that of his peer; Apollos. In exercising their spiritual gift as ministers, these brothers had a role without being overesteemed as the one planting or as the one watering. When a minister is seeking honor, they want to be overesteemed.

Ministers are usually despised when they speak a word contrary to fleshly pride. If there's an hour when you can listen to "Seek not honor from men", please discern how Art's message applies to the recovery.
I'd have to ask those who knew Art if he was a thorn. I suspect Art was a thorn to those who did not know the cross well, by those who could not recieve adjusting or admonishing.

Terry

NeitherFirstnorLast · 01-22-2011, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Here are some quotes from Art Katz on True Fellowship
There is no relationship except in the light as He is in the light, which is truth. We cannot have things concealed, hidden, unexpressed or things ignored because they’re too painful, because they’re too demanding or because “who wants to exhort one another daily?” It’s not a pleasant activity and what if it’ll not be received? What if you’ll be misunderstood? What if you’re wrong in your assessment? Well it’s safer it’s easier not to bother. Step by step because we don’t bother, because we don’t see, because we don’t defend one another in light and in truth the deceitfulness of sin takes over.

Amen!

The Lord brought a timely word to me last night, in my journey through 1 Kings. Really, He's been putting it in front of me all week. I heard a message on "being a hypocrite" last evening on my drive home... and it was weighing on my heart. So often the Lord has pressed me to speak, and always my excuse has been that I would only offend my brothers and sisters.

The Lord spoke through 1 Kings 13. Do you know the story? A man of God is sent out of Judah to come to Jeroboam, who burns sacrifices on the altars he has built on the high places. The man of God prophecies against Jeroboam: "Altar, Oh Altar, thus says Jehovah: Behold a son shall be born to the house of David, Josiah by name; and he will sacrifice upon you the priests of the high places who burn incense upon you, and men's bones will they burn upon you." The Man of God gives signs, and then departs from the land by a different way, because God had commanded him "you shall not eat food nor drink water there, nor shall you return by going on the way that you came there."

However

There was a certain old prophet dwelling in Bethel, who heard that this man of God had come through. He wanted to welcome him into his house for food and fellowship, so he sought him out; and found him beneath a Terebinth tree. He asked him if he was indeed the man of God; and he confirmed it: "I am" he said.

The old prophet invites the man of God to his house, but the man of God explains that he cannot go, and tells the old prophet why.

The old prophet says 1K13:18 "I also am a prophet like you, and an angel has spoken to me by the word of Jehovah, saying 'Bring him back with you to your house that he may eat food and drink water.' He lied to him."

The man of God accepted the lie, and went back with old prophet to his house, to eat and drink. And while they were at the table, the word of Jehovah did come to the old prophet:

"Because you have rebelled against the word of Jehovah and did not keep the command that Jehovah your God commanded you, but returned and at food and drank water in the place concerining which He said to you, Do not eat food and do not drink water; your corpse shall not come to the grave of your fathers."

The old prophet saddled the donkey for the man of God, and sent him on his way; but a lion (roaring and prowling about, no doubt), met him on his journey - and killed him. His body lay in the road with the lion, and the donkey remained unharmed. The old prophet wandered down to collect his corpse, and mourned him and buried him there in his own grave. He instructed his sons to bury him beside the man of God when his time came.

Why did the man of God disobey the clear speaking of the Lord and follow the old prophet, who was - even if a liar - still a real prophet of God as he would then demonstrate? Because he craved, I think, not food or water but fellowship... just like the old prophet did. He was willing to disobey God for fellowship.

Lord, forgive me. I have forsaken You too often for fellowship. Renew me, Lord. Cleanse me from such unrighteousness.

Saints, the Lord isn't calling me out - yet. But He is calling me to speak. I wish I had the gift to speak eloquently, but that gift is not mine. Perhaps His strength can be perfected in my weakness. Perhaps. Nevertheless, Jesus Christ is Lord. He's my Lord - and to Him I give the glory - Him I must obey.

In Christ,

NFNL

Scribe · 01-24-2011, 12:19 PM

Brother Art Katz has been brought into the local church discussions court room in this thread. Brother Art is gone since 2007, even as brother Witness is gone since 1997. Neither are here to respond to either support or opposition. May the Lord have mercy on us as we take up these men in hand.

Art Katz was not a part of the local churches in the way of revelation, nor was he a member of LSM. Still, he appears here in "local chruch discussions". What does Art have that qualifies him to be judged with Watchman and Witness under this logos? It is that he was Jewish. He was a son of Israel to whom the Lord was revealing Himself. Since Art is already invoked here, I will take up his view of Israel and Israel's relationship to the church. I will do this in the Israel thread.

Art Katz is still one of the all things that serve those that love God and are called according to the purpose. So I take up that service here.

Scribe.

TLFisher · 01-24-2011, 12:55 PM

Brother Art was a brother who was a Jewish-Christian. I've thought of Art being relevant since he is a brother and since he was influenced by the ministries of Nee, Spurgeon, and who knows whom else. Having listened to multiple messages of Art Katz, his messages bring forth a transparency that has been lacking in the local churches for decades. It was through this website www.mendingministry.com/ did I first recieve Art's ministry. Maybe some would be so quick to dismiss Art in any discussion because he had no apparent involvment in the local churches. For that reason he might be summarily dismissed as a New Testament minister. On the contrary I have found Art's speaking to pierce right through the soul to the spirit and not one to placate man.

Scribe · 01-26-2011, 01:07 PM

Art Katz was hidden from me until Passover 2002. I had been writing many things on the Holocaust. The Lord then brought Arts book to me entitled....."The Holocaust, where was God?". In it I saw that he saw similar things that I was learning. Then I also saw in his writings the seeds of what we are seeing concerning Israel and the church. These two things caused me to write upon this brother, whose writing had come to me. My writing then began to draw us together. I love Art Katz not because of the doctrine he spoke or wrote. My love for him is found in the fact that he was Jewish. The Lord taught me to love the Jews and God made it unconditional in me. Before me, Art was a lamb of God scattered into the nations.

I would encourage all who are interested in this brother, to read his journal. In it are writings that begin in Dachau, Germany 1953. Then take up again ten years later was he goes out from Oakland to Jerusalem to find his roots. Chapters are written as he traveled. Chapters written before the Lord manifested Himself to him. You can read how the Lord set it up and then on the boat from Brindisi, Italy to Kurfu, Greece, he read New Testament and became a believer in Jesus Christ. The journal ends at Kansas City, 1970. Many of us were then entering or about to enter the local churches. Art entered the "end time" movements, which moved into wilderness farms. These movements were of "pentecostal" nature, but were also visions of the leaders. This grew out of Bill Britton in Missouri and others such as Sam Fife. Much of Art's teaching comes out of this. But his teaching of the holocaust and the relationship of the church and Israel goes beyond this. This mutual burden brought he and I together for a number of meetings in the following years.

Terry, you ask if Art was a thorn. His web page was called "Ben Israel, the burning bush." This is referring to Moses vision of the burning thornbush. Moses stood on holy ground and really was seeing Israel. Israel is a burning thornbush. It burns and is not consumed. In it the Angel of the covenant appears to reveal the staff of God in Moses hand. Truly Israel is that burning thorn bush and in this Art was a precious thorn.

Scribe

TLFisher · 01-26-2011, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scribe

I would encourage all who are interested in this brother, to read his journal. In it are writings that begin in Dachau, Germany 1953. Then take up again ten years later was he goes out from Oakland to Jerusalem to find his roots. Chapters are written as he traveled. Chapters written before the Lord manifested Himself to him. You can read how the Lord set it up and then on the boat from Brindisi, Italy to Kurfu, Greece, he read New Testament and became a believer in Jesus Christ. The journal ends at Kansas City, 1970. Many of us were then entering or about to enter the local churches.

I've heard Art refer to this journal in his messages, but never read it. Specifically in his message "Seek not the Approval of Man", Art speaks about going to Dachau in 1953. What Art says about man in this message applies without a doubt to the local churches as a whole. That is not having the stomach for calamity. Talk about lc history, you won't find any mention of Phillip Lee's affect on the churches. Simply no stomach for calamity.

TLFisher · 01-27-2011, 12:38 PM

Brother Art's ministry was focused to the Jewish-Christian believers and to spread the gospel to Judaism. However my spiritual registration is if you're one whose saviour is Jesus Christ, Art's ministry is also meant for you to recieve.

Scribe · 01-28-2011, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Brother Art's ministry was focused to the Jewish-Christian believers and to spread the gospel to Judaism. However my spiritual registration is if you're one whose saviour is Jesus Christ, Art's ministry is also meant for you to recieve.

There is a ministry in every Jew, for those that turn aside to see the sign of the burning thornbush. In them the Angel of the covenant speaks to the called out one. So it was with Art before me. Blessed be the burning bush.

Scribe

11-20-2009, 07:18 PM	#1
TLFisher Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Renton, Washington Posts: 3,545	Art Katz on True Fellowship Here are some quotes from Art Katz on True Fellowship Fellowship today sort of has the ring of popcorn. “Fellowship. Well, we’ll have fellowship.” That means a little back slap. Here’s what it means, “that they may all be one.” Its not sublimating your differences and swallowing them down, or by concealing issues or turning your back on them. It means by totally giving oneself over to the issues of truth. It means expressing what’s in your heart, speaking the truth in love and exhorting one another daily while it is yet today. It means confrontation. It means bringing to the surface and to the light the things that are concealed in the dark rather than swallowing them down and looking the wrong way and hoping by a little glib smile and a slap on the back to pass them over! “Those that believed were together and had all things common and sold their possessions and goods and parted them to all men as every man had need and they continuing daily with one accord,,,,” “Continuing daily!” What ever made Christianity a Sunday venture? It’s a distortion, a caricature and a grotesque that the great faith that is daily in the intention of God has been made a Sunday addendum. There is no way that mere Sundays, even punctuated with a mid-week Bible study can attain to this glory. It’s a daily thing or it’s nothing. “……. Your ministry is not some kind of individual virtuoso that you have independent of other men. Your ministry is to flow out of My Life and My Life flows out of the relationship of the saints.” Put that in your spiritual pipe and smoke it. I know we’d rather have it the other way. We’d rather have individual ministries based on our individual virtuosity and ability, wholly independent of men. We’d like to enjoy the benefits that accrue us through ministry privately, then on Sunday be great sports and spend an hour or two with the saints. That’s what the flesh wants. But it is not the way of God. True New Testament ministry of the kind that is penetrating and that affects time and eternity must grow out of His life and the life comes out of the relationships. There’s an extraordinary organic connection between the expression of the ministry and the foundation of life in koinonia out of which it must come. God has seen to it. Anything else is aberration, distortion and contradiction from the New Testament example of God. The issue of truth is the issue of life. We have as much life as we have truth. They are one and the same, We have as much light as we have life. We have as much fellowship as we have light, as much life saving witness as we have fellowship. “That the world might know that the Father has sent me, because you’re one.” Shall I repeat this formula? The issue of truth is the issue of life: not truth academically, but truth inwrought in the relationships of God’s people. There is no relationship except in the light as He is in the light, which is truth. We cannot have things concealed, hidden, unexpressed or things ignored because they’re too painful, because they’re too demanding or because “who wants to exhort one another daily?” It’s not a pleasant activity and what if it’ll not be received? What if you’ll be misunderstood? What if you’re wrong in your assessment? Well it’s safer it’s easier not to bother. Step by step because we don’t bother, because we don’t see, because we don’t defend one another in light and in truth the deceitfulness of sin takes over. http://www.blendedbody.com/_cl/_John21/index.htm Terry

12-19-2009, 12:45 PM	#2
TLFisher Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Renton, Washington Posts: 3,545	Re: Art Katz on God's Government "The governement of God is more than bureaucracy; it has to do with order, but it also has to do with values, justice, righteousness, equity, peace, mercy, compassion, and love. The world governments know nothing of these things. They are predicated on power, advantage, and ambition, but the governement of God is life-giving. It is sanity and health for all mankind. We need to understand the church in the context of these things, or else we will think that the church is just a place where our needs are met, and services are conducted. That kind of mentality will not prepare us for anything. It does not move us toward anything , and therefore we do not even understand our own identity as the church in the nations." Page 8 The Principalities and Powers Terry

12-20-2009, 07:01 PM	#3
TLFisher Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Renton, Washington Posts: 3,545	What if? What if requires the possibility of being wrong, mistaken, or presumptuous. When one never considers something could be true, they have invited deception through their complacency. In Acts chapter 5 Peter saw through the deception of Ananias and Sapphira. 1. But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2. and kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4. While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God. Willingness of truth is to bear "what if"? Truth requires courage. In 1 Timothy 3:15 we see the church is the pillar and base of the truth. However painful or costly truth is, in this age of deception no one is exempt from being deceived. Terry

12-26-2009, 12:05 PM	#6
TLFisher Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Renton, Washington Posts: 3,545	Against False Prophets: Jeremiah 23:14-40 Art's word on False Prophets is meant just for prophets, but when ministers who are in error. The basis for Art's message is on Jeremiah 23:14-40. A deeper sinfulness is "willingness to be spoken as oracle or prophet of the hour." What needs to be said is "you're saying too much. I'm undeserving of that acknowledgment." We aren't guilty of what we speak, but also guilty in our silence when we should speak. False prophets/ministers always speak of positive things. "They affirm us, confirm us, and are pleasant to hear." The Lord's word is other than our own. Who has an ear to hear? The Lord's word leads us to a deeper level of consecration. The Lord's word is adjusting. Quite contrary to the positive speaking that is pleasant to hear. Our flesh will be offended and adjusted by the Lord's speaking. Who will risk receiving the word which will require a loss? There will be a price. Would you rather hear a word that we'll be co-kings or would you rather hear a word that adjusts our relationship to the Lord? Wicked is always in contrast to the righteous. The word wicked implies those who know better and have had opportunity, but don't. Wicked are the ones who call a true prophet as being false. Presumption is to think they are speaking for God. It is deception. An unbridled arrogance to claim God's oracle. Though it is accepted as if nothing is required. To maintain integrity requires sticking out obtusely. There is a price to pay to guard your spirit and your heart. This message can be heard at: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/m...titleA&show=20 or www.mendingministry.com Terry

01-13-2010, 11:42 PM	#7
TLFisher Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Renton, Washington Posts: 3,545	Receive Not Honor From Men This next message by Art Katz is based on John 5:41 and Luke 6:22. God wants us to seek His honor alone. If we are those who give honor only to God, expect dishonor in this life. To receive honor from men is as Art spoke to "negate apostolic integrity". To speak truth and absoluteness is to offend our want for honor, esteem, and recognition. Consider the prophets. They were hated because honor was not sought. Prophets not seeking honor caused resentment and opposition to be raised up. Terry

01-14-2010, 06:15 AM	#8
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,384	Re: Art Katz on True Fellowship I have not listened to the messages, but only observed your comments. It would seem that these messages are extending the state of the prophet beyond those who were, or sought to be, prophets. Now your comments did suggest at one point that he said this was specifically for prophets, but the way you immediately mentioned ministers was not clear that he was excluding them or including them. Or whether he was initially excluding them but essentially including them anyway. The task of an OT prophet was primarily to speak against ongoing error in Israel and/or Judea. They were not the equivalent of ministers who speak all of the word of God, but those who speak what we might call correcting words, warnings and exhortations. Surely no one is going to like being told they are in error. So if a prophet is getting too many kudos, then it might be a sign that his message is not right. But a minister, teacher, shepherd, etc., is constantly spurring us on to greater heights. As we realize the benefits that we receive from God, we may acknowledge the human vessel(s) that are used to bring those benefits. While the minister should never consider that he, himself provided the benefit, he is worthy of his "wages," in whatever form they are. In this last message it would seem that AK is so concerned about anyone being spoken well of that he is extending the "no honor" thought from the prophets to all ministers of every kind. So if the idea with the prophets is that they should not only seek no honor, but should expect to be despised, then what is the parallel that makes ministers despised by those to whom they minister? He probably did not intend to take it that far. But on what basis did he take it as far as he did? Surely all of the servants of God who minister to us should not be doing it for personal gain or the approval of man. But if they do their "job" well, these may come. Righteous people will acknowledge others who serve them well. The key is not in rejecting any honor that comes their way, but in 1) not seeking the honor of man and 2) accepting it humbly as you simultaneously acknowledge that the truly faithful one is God. You may have only mentioned certain portions that stood out to you, but it seems that AK is almost sterilizing "true fellowship" to the point that we are merely disinterested tools being used by God to have emotionless discourse with one another. I would surely expect that AK should not expect much of a following since he seems to think that his message should be a thorn in the sides of everyone. Or is it merely a thorn in the sides of those outside of his fellowship to whom he speaks as a prophet? There is something almost Lee-like in this position. I may be too harsh since I do not have the luxury of time to actually listen to the messages but must rely on your brief comments. But even if I am off base, it seems that is what stuck out to you to write about. Looking at this view in terms of the LC, it would seem that Lee would like this notion. All of the followers would be very careful to avoid seeking the approval of man, so no one would try to step out of line. But despite the apparent disconnect, everyone is following and praising the one leader for bringing this "rich ministry." Sort of tells why Lee didn't consider any as being peers. They were too busy staying "unworthy". __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

01-24-2011, 12:19 PM	#13
Scribe Banned Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 222	Art Katz Brother Art Katz has been brought into the local church discussions court room in this thread. Brother Art is gone since 2007, even as brother Witness is gone since 1997. Neither are here to respond to either support or opposition. May the Lord have mercy on us as we take up these men in hand. Art Katz was not a part of the local churches in the way of revelation, nor was he a member of LSM. Still, he appears here in "local chruch discussions". What does Art have that qualifies him to be judged with Watchman and Witness under this logos? It is that he was Jewish. He was a son of Israel to whom the Lord was revealing Himself. Since Art is already invoked here, I will take up his view of Israel and Israel's relationship to the church. I will do this in the Israel thread. Art Katz is still one of the all things that serve those that love God and are called according to the purpose. So I take up that service here. Scribe.

01-24-2011, 12:55 PM	#14
TLFisher Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Renton, Washington Posts: 3,545	Re: Art Katz on True Fellowship Brother Art was a brother who was a Jewish-Christian. I've thought of Art being relevant since he is a brother and since he was influenced by the ministries of Nee, Spurgeon, and who knows whom else. Having listened to multiple messages of Art Katz, his messages bring forth a transparency that has been lacking in the local churches for decades. It was through this website www.mendingministry.com/ did I first recieve Art's ministry. Maybe some would be so quick to dismiss Art in any discussion because he had no apparent involvment in the local churches. For that reason he might be summarily dismissed as a New Testament minister. On the contrary I have found Art's speaking to pierce right through the soul to the spirit and not one to placate man.

01-26-2011, 01:07 PM	#15
Scribe Banned Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 222	Re: Art Katz on True Fellowship Art Katz was hidden from me until Passover 2002. I had been writing many things on the Holocaust. The Lord then brought Arts book to me entitled....."The Holocaust, where was God?". In it I saw that he saw similar things that I was learning. Then I also saw in his writings the seeds of what we are seeing concerning Israel and the church. These two things caused me to write upon this brother, whose writing had come to me. My writing then began to draw us together. I love Art Katz not because of the doctrine he spoke or wrote. My love for him is found in the fact that he was Jewish. The Lord taught me to love the Jews and God made it unconditional in me. Before me, Art was a lamb of God scattered into the nations. I would encourage all who are interested in this brother, to read his journal. In it are writings that begin in Dachau, Germany 1953. Then take up again ten years later was he goes out from Oakland to Jerusalem to find his roots. Chapters are written as he traveled. Chapters written before the Lord manifested Himself to him. You can read how the Lord set it up and then on the boat from Brindisi, Italy to Kurfu, Greece, he read New Testament and became a believer in Jesus Christ. The journal ends at Kansas City, 1970. Many of us were then entering or about to enter the local churches. Art entered the "end time" movements, which moved into wilderness farms. These movements were of "pentecostal" nature, but were also visions of the leaders. This grew out of Bill Britton in Missouri and others such as Sam Fife. Much of Art's teaching comes out of this. But his teaching of the holocaust and the relationship of the church and Israel goes beyond this. This mutual burden brought he and I together for a number of meetings in the following years. Terry, you ask if Art was a thorn. His web page was called "Ben Israel, the burning bush." This is referring to Moses vision of the burning thornbush. Moses stood on holy ground and really was seeing Israel. Israel is a burning thornbush. It burns and is not consumed. In it the Angel of the covenant appears to reveal the staff of God in Moses hand. Truly Israel is that burning thorn bush and in this Art was a precious thorn. Scribe

01-27-2011, 12:38 PM	#17
TLFisher Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Renton, Washington Posts: 3,545	Re: Art Katz on True Fellowship Brother Art's ministry was focused to the Jewish-Christian believers and to spread the gospel to Judaism. However my spiritual registration is if you're one whose saviour is Jesus Christ, Art's ministry is also meant for you to recieve.