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[Sons to Glory!]

Good point that ALL the trees were good for food. So how does sin get in the flesh? (as per Romans 7:17-20) We certainly appear to be born with it even before we sin . . .

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Good point that ALL the trees were good for food. So how does sin get in the flesh? (as per Romans 7:17-20) We certainly appear to be born with it even before we sin . . .

Paul says plainly, "Through one man's sin, sin entered the world." Sin corrupts.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Good point that ALL the trees were good for food. So how does sin get in the flesh? (as per Romans 7:17-20) We certainly appear to be born with it even before we sin . . .

Originally Posted by Cal

Paul says plainly, "Through one man's sin, sin entered the world." Sin corrupts.

This is my take I'll just throw into the mix but won't argue for:

I think the verse saying "sin entered the world" means "the world" as in the world in general, like, "sin came on the scene" or like "sin showed up among men". As in, before Adam's sin, sin was not present in mankind, and after Adam's sin, it was present in mankind, in Adam. I do not think that this means something like Adam's sin entered into all of humankind's flesh. To be sure, the end of that verse is "because all sinned". So death spread to all men 'because all sinned', not because Adam's sin spread to us all and we somehow have someone else's sin causing us to....sin.

Man fell, but I see no evidence that "Adam's nature changed", that somehow Adam started out with a different "nature" than we do. I think we all, Jesus included, were born with a free will human nature, with desires to and free ability to do good/right things or bad/wrong things. I mean, Jesus freely WANTED to do something opposite of what God wanted, but aligned Himself with His Father's will. For us to be born with some kind of sin-bent would mean God is judging us for a serious predisposition out of our control, AND would mean we are born with a fundamentally different nature than Jesus who was supposed to be "made like us in every way" (yet without sin, which I hold to be not a nature, but, as in "yet He did not commit a sin"). Or maybe I'm wrong, but then God just takes the sin-predisposition takes it into account when judging?). However, I think as I've argued elsewhere on the forum, then God's repeated exhortation to His people in the Old Testament to obey Him, and His punishment when they don't, makes no sense if they have some kind of built-in or inherited sin nature by which doing the right thing is inherently out of their control.

I would agree, though, that sin corrupts. So my take would be that as each of us sinned, and as we then chose to sin again, sin corrupts us each individually. Sin has a corrupting effect in us leading to more sin. But that's the effect of our own choice to sin, not that someone else's sin corrupted us. Just my 0.02.

Trapped

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I would agree, though, that sin corrupts. So my take would be that as each of us sinned, and as we then chose to sin again, sin corrupts us each individually. Sin has a corrupting effect in us leading to more sin. But that's the effect of our own choice to sin, not that someone else's sin corrupted us. Just my 0.02.

Trapped

If sin is in the flesh when we're born, then we're predisposed to sin. Children don't have to be taught to lie, it's just something in them.

If we're not born with sin in the flesh, then if a person never sined, would they still die?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

If sin is in the flesh when we're born, then we're predisposed to sin. Children don't have to be taught to lie, it's just something in them.

I've heard that comment a lot "children don't have to be taught to lie", but I think it's an unintentional misdirect.

Children's brains don't have the capacity for things. Like impulse control, emotional regulation, etc. They are not developed, but are developing. It's my personal view that God doesn't condemn a 2-year old for getting tantrum-level angry or throwing a toy when that child doesn't have the brain with the capability of regulating the anger in the first place. That's not sin. God is not petty like that.

I would also argue that children don't have to be taught to do good things either. (I don't mean in general; I just mean it is in a child to do both). I have a personal example in my own life of one of my friend's children, the kid is 4 or 5 I think, who found out that someone his dad knew had a favorite toy stolen decades ago when he (the child's dad's friend) was a kid. Much to the dad's complete shock, his kid heard it and said, "I want to give him [the dad's friend] one of my toys [the kind that was stolen] to him so he doesn't feel so bad about his getting stolen." The dad was speechless and had no idea where that selfless compassion came from as it wasn't something they had taught him in particular.

Children have the capability for lying and for compassion, for hitting and for love. The "I love you mommy"s with a deep satisfied sigh are not behaviors that the other parent sat down and walked the kid through. Kids have the capacity and the desire for both good and bad things, just like us.

I am of the school of thought that there is an age of accountability. Not a blanket one, but one unique to each individual. That's why God is the judge. He knows at which point we each could have chosen not to sin but first chose to.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

If we're not born with sin in the flesh, then if a person never sinned, would they still die?

The Bible says all have sinned, and because of that, death spread to all men.

On one hand, I would say "no, they would not still die", but then the next logical question is "so what about babies or young children who die of cancer or in a car accident?" And my answer is, I don't know. This is a point I said I wouldn't argue on because I'm not sure of it.

A possible answer is that all are appointed to die in the flesh, regardless of sin, and the "death" WE are referring to that is a result of sin is really the second death, the death of the soul. So in other words, 100 year olds who sinned their whole lives and a 2 month old who never sinned once are both going to die bodily regardless, since Hebrews 9:27 says we are quite literally "appointed to die" but then face judgment, which means it's just our bodies and not our souls that are appointed to die, then the young child who never sinned would have nothing on his/her record to be judged by and would pass through into eternal life.

That's conjecture of course. This is a debated question "how can God condemn babies who die" and I haven't solved every last nuance of it

But given the choice of a God who condemns us for sins we committed because of an inherited sin-tendency someone ELSE gave us (that's too unrighteous of a God for me, and not one I see in the Bible) versus a God who condemns us for sins we knowingly chose to commit and yet I don't know exactly what happens with the outlier situations but trust that righteous God to handle it righteously....I'll take the latter one where I don't know everything, but where God is righteous in all directions.

Trapped