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11-12-2021, 06:48 AM
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#1 |
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Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 196
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A different Perspective!
Hello all,
I have recently found this website, while doing some extensive research regarding the so-called truths that I have been told. I must admit that the detox process is not always a pleasant experience, but something that one has to go through. By the mercy and grace of God, I have been recently (about 10 months) taken out of this movement, after spending 12+ years dishonoring Him, doubting Him, and prostituting myself (spiritually speaking), believing a lie! I don't really want to get into all details regarding on how and when I got into it at this time, (one day I will), however, I can testify that as couple of men told me upon my notification to them that I'm no longer part of this group, "Paul, you know you can't leave this, there is no way out! There is no where to go! Don't worry, you will be back here in a matter of time". Those are probably the only true statements that I have heard! And after not understanding the matter at hand, and having to stand before God and beg for the answers, I've realized and see their point. No man by themselves can leave this! No-one can just pack their bags and go away! No-one can just say that I disagree and leave, because if you believed that lie once, it comes with strings attached and will pull you back into it, if not to these man, but sometimes into even worse! It requires God, only He can pull someone out of it! Only He can cut all ties and strings! Only He can set you free! I just want to point out one theme, or one underlining issue that I have discovered and noticed with mostly all people that are no longer associated with this scam, and that issue is doctrinal bases. Although it is the biggest and the most important of all issues, no argument from me, I do believe that there is a trap that’s is purposely set there. I will just touch one aspect of it. I hope that me bringing in this illustration will help someone see, or at least shed some light into the matter at hand. Ephesians 6:12 (King James Version) "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places". How many of you ever played a game of chess? Or how many understand the concepts of what the game is all about? If you do, great. That will help you to understand what Im trying to point out, but if you don't, just understanding a simple concept of "winning a battle, but losing a war", is enough to get my point. Just like with any great and effective operation and strategy, there is sometimes things that one has to sacrifice in order to achieve the bigger goal. This is not your typical Joyce Myers, or Joel Olsteen run of the mill operation. I can guarantee you that it wasn't put together overnite in the garage. This is not trading your bishop for a knight, or pawn for a pawn, and at the end calling it a draw! This is more like trading their queen for a pawn, with the hope that you don't see the trap that's is set there, and jump all over it, so that they can get to your King! I apologize that I'm using this examples to show something that I hope will point someone to a slightly different direction and to maybe see how this thing here is put together. There is much more to this than arguments about doctrines and practices. Lastly, I say to those who live in any kind of fear of these men, and become anonymous online critics and pontificators. Although I understand and can clearly see what the consequences of doing so would be, I ask you to consider this: What was the reason God by His mercy on you took you out of this scam or anything else for that matter? What was the reason you have been set free, if that so happen in your life and this is not just a holy war on your understanding of the certain truths? Are we called to be the light? Are we called to be the salt? Are we to continue to live our live in our own pity, “Oh, poor me. How I got screwed”? Are we to still yield anything to this scam, and give power to the man that invented it or the people that run it? You all know how many people’s lives and families have been destroyed by this scam, even their own children will testify against them! I ask and say all this not to say that I’m in a better situation than ya’ll, but I say this knowing that, this is exactly where these men want you to be. This is exactly where they feel most powerful! This is exactly what this is all about. And while you all out here fighting the holy battle, of trying to prove who is right and who is wrong, they will be going after your weak! They are going after you children! They are going after your wives, because you know “if we get the children, we will get the mother, and then the father will have no choice”. And while a lot of you thinking that your are winning your holy battles, these men are winning ultimate war! I ask you all to consider the matter at hand and look at it from the perspective of the scripture above, who we are to wrestle, and who/what stand behind this whole scam! There will be no draw, nor there will be any yielding! Do not fear these men, they have as much power as a common flu, although they will say otherwise! Instead, put your testimony out in the light! I’m sure that wherever you are in the world, there are hundreds if not thousands of children, women, and men that are looking for someone to help them! There are hundreds of people who are living in fear, living in crippling chains of this disabling scam! Point them to the One that can free, the One that can restore! Point them to Him that has set you free, The Real Jesus, the Living one! Maybe just one person who will see your testimony before man, and you will have a chance to share Christ with them, and that will be way better off than posting online as anonymous victims! We are not called to sell a vision, or to follow one! We are not here to preach a word of a man, but to preach Christ, and Christ crucified! 1 Cor 9:16 “…Woe unto me, if I preach not the gospel” and also 1 Cor 1:23 “But we preach Christ crucified”. Throw away all visions, all junk that’s associated with it also! Jer 17:5 “Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusts in man, and taketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD”. Him alone, Christ alone! May God be our Shepard in every step that we take, and every moment of our lives! Do not fear anyone, except God! 2 Timothy 1:7 (KJV) For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Matthew 10:28 (KJV) 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. God Bless. Paul. I apologize for any grammatical errors or such, English and writing is not my strong suit. |
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11-12-2021, 07:51 AM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 968
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Re: A different Perspective!
Hi brother Paul! I hope to hear more from you!! Sounds like you have your head screwed on right!
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Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry. |
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11-12-2021, 11:56 AM
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#3 |
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Admin/Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,100
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Re: A different Perspective!
Paul,
The best English is plain English. You nailed it. Nell |
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11-13-2021, 11:08 AM
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#4 | ||
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,523
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Re: A different Perspective!
Quote:
Thanks so much for including this record of your experience here. This type of reaction and response that you received from some of the men in the local church needs to be preserved for future readers. This is one of the things that makes the local church unhealthy and a place to run from. Quote:
Of course, we are called to honor God above all if He calls us to do such a thing. It doesn't mean there isn't a inner battle about it, though. But thank you for your admonishing and encouraging......hopefully making each of us go before the Lord once again about it. Trapped |
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11-13-2021, 12:02 PM
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#5 | |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 2,617
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Re: A different Perspective!
Quote:
But the Lord had to get me out first through some external circumstances, in that my job moved my family into the middle of the dessert, where there was no LC for many miles. For over 10 years He dried me out and eventually made me desperate to seek Him for where there might be good Christ centered teachings and fellowship. In utter desperation one day, I spent hours in a Christian bookstore trying to find something that was focused on knowing Christ Himself. But all I seemed to find were Christian psychology-centered books, or Christian self-help books, or "how to" books (laws & rules) or about living an outwardly prosperous Christian life . . . so many books with what seemed like hollow sounding fluff, or at least that was my perception. Then, that same day, He lead me to find John Piper's book, Desiring God. And as I stood there and read a few things from it, I began to be touched by the Spirit and the Anointing told me I had found something good, that truly honored the new covenant and Christ. I took that book home and began to devour it and it greatly nourished my spirit. From that I was encouraged and strengthened to further seek the Lord and ongoing Christian fellowship. So that was how the Lord led me to see that there were good sources of Christian teaching outside the LC. Since then (about 22 years ago) He has worked in me significantly to really appreciate all Christians, no matter what teaching or practice they are following, and to be able to just seek the Lord with anyone regardless. Therefore don't believe the lie that the LC is like "Hotel California" i.e., "you can never leave!" The Lord is faithful and will lead you where He needs to place you in the body. (however, be patient as it may take a while for Him to get you to that place (internally and externally).
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LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS! |
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11-13-2021, 02:33 PM
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#6 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: A different Perspective!
Quote:
In each case the common denominator gripping them was fear, fear of the unknown, fear of hurting family and friends, fear of family and friends getting hurt. Yet freedom was calling them. They were willing to take that risk. They had to get out. None left impulsively on a whim or a dare, rather within they weighed the costs, and decided freedom was worth it. They left everything. They left a totally structured life for the freedom to make choices on their own, full of uncertainties, dangers, and frustrations. Many went out like Father Abraham, "not knowing where he was going." (Heb 11.8)
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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11-13-2021, 09:52 PM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 196
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Re: A different Perspective!
Hello all again,
I very much appreciate all of the response and encouragement from you all. It takes a lot out of me, to post here, I must admit. I wish it wasn’t so, but my lovely wife and my kids are very much still stuck in this scam, with no end in sight! I trust my God, Who has the best way to get us to trust Him in all our circumstances. Just as it was for me, when the Lord said to get out, I got to trust Him again in a bigger and more challenging way, by giving Him my wife and kids regardless of the outcome. And if tomorrow I wake up with all things gone, I would still be able to say, “God gave, and God took”, “I praise You, my Lord”. There is nothing more satisfying than seeing Him come through over and over again, and even when it’s bleak and not much hope, He can do what no man can, and that change lives of people. I ask you all to keep me and my family in your prayers, it’s a great fight, but He is able to do more that we ask! And even if it ain’t so, He will still be my King! |
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11-14-2021, 07:00 AM
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#8 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: A different Perspective!
Quote:
Perhaps you might want to change your "name" to protect your family during this transition.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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11-14-2021, 12:03 PM
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#9 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 196
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Re: A different Perspective!
KJV “Luke 14:28-35”
“28*For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29*Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30*Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 31*Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 32*Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 33*So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. 34*Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? 35*It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Hi Ohio, I appreciate your responses and do understand the thinking behind the idea of not wanting to expose yourself or anyone around you to the scrutiny or any other malice attacks. However, one of the first things that struck me about this site, and other way that people have expressed and communicated their issues, testimonies, and just shared anything, was by being anonymous. Everyone has a way, but I personally consider the anonymous way to be kind of cowardly, and smells too much like the the way things were/are done in the scam that I was a part of. There is always “leading brothers, with no name attached” , there is political correctness at the highest level, there is always “don’t say that, don’t be that way, “we are all about “onness”, let’s just all get together and sing a kumbaya. I really don’t consider that way to be a way of change, or a way to bigger and better things. You mentioned in one of the post earlier, about the man that stood for something that they believed, can you imagine if they where just anonymous sources laying out their lives and standing for something without disclosing who they are? Don’t get me wrong, I feel for people who have been through the rigger, and as the verses that I mentioned above state, one would be a fool to not sit there and calculate the costs that one would incur do so with your identity attached to it. That is my real name, and they can say whatever they like! I have no fear or will get offended at their proclamations! I have been freed from all that nonsense of seeing the destruction of people and just looking the other way, or as I was told many times “just pray about it brother”, “just let the Lord take care of it”. Did the children of Israel upon being saved from their captivity in Egypt, sat in the dessert and just chanted the name a billion times with hope that God would just do everything for them, or they actually had to go and while trusting Him to stand with them, fight for what they got, even though it was promised to them? Does the farmer sit and prays in his house for a great harvest, but never goes out and plows the field, plants the seed, and water it for growth, trusting God that it will all be done for Him? What kind of harvest should he expect? You all know the answer for that. So as much as it pains me to say this, God is not anonymous, and if we are His children we shouldn’t be also! We need to put on the bootstraps, and the full armor, and go out and do what His disciples got to do, even if it cost you everything and more! After all, what’s there to be attached to? It will all burn one day! There is no money, no gold or silver that can replace what He gave us! I say one thing before I end: that God has to be, and must be trusted in all His promises and that’s the only way! I would equate the scam that is perpetrated on these people who refuse to listen, check, double check, and even consider to see facts that are still available for anyone that’s willing to put their time, prayer, and asking Him to lead you unto the right path, to a person that went online shopping for a very expensive luxury car. Guess what, he got a great deal on the brand new Bugatti. Paid for it, the payment went out, and the person was really happy about it. They were so happy about the deal that they got, that they didn’t even read the fine print , it just unnecessary, when you get such a great deal! Well, after some time they got the car, and they park it right in the middle of their living room. And today all the do is just sit there and look at it, and just say,”Wow, what a Bugatti”, “Bugatti, can you believe that I got such a great deal? They invite people over and brag, and gush about it! They even have meetings around it! You got to, how can you not when the deal was sooooo sweeeeet!!! But then one day he invited one of his best friends over for one of those meetings, and a man took the owner to the side and asked him, “Hey, that’s a nice deal you got there on that car, you got a great deal! I just have two questions for you: 1. Why such a great car, with such power and might is parked in the middle of your living room, and not outside, why you not driving it in the fast lane? 2. Why don’t you ever let anyone inside the car, to sit in it, and maybe start it, smell the burning of that high octane fuel, hear the roar of that engine? And the man just got all shy and uncomfortable. He said “I can’t discuss this with you at this time, maybe another time.”, and said, “why don’t we just go over there where everyone at and just enjoy the time, look at it, its a beast!” But after the whole this was over, and everyone left the meeting, and the man was left to himself, he just couldn’t find a place or room in his house to find a peace about those questions. And after considerable time thinking about it, he called back his friend and said the following, with tear running down his face: “I got SCAMMED! I feel ashamed to even tell people! They took everything from me, all my money, my bank account is empty, and they just keep calling me all the time, saying that if I ever say anything to anyone, they will come after me! And about the car by the way, its just a shell, they gutted it! There is no engine, no electrical system, even the interior is fake, spray painted plastic! If you sit in it, it will all fall apart, I can’t even open the door, and I have no keys! I fail to read the fine print! I never researched it, never thought someone would do that to me, I trusted a man!” And his friend said to him: “You need to share this with people, even if they will make fun of you, even if they all abandon you, because you are broke and you lied to them about how great this thing is! And you you need to do that immediately, don’t wait another day, because the scammers that did that to you, they are out there looking for their next victim! It’s no longer about you, its not about your feelings and your comfort. Look out for others, and maybe one day they will get cut. You will get back what was taken from you, and more!” After considering everything that he was told, and understanding that what he is to do, he went out and told people about what happened. Most, had their usual laugh at him. Some, took notice. But there was a couple of people who took him aside and said, “we had it happen to us, we were just too embarrased to even say something, let alone invite someone over to the house and brag about it!”. And then came another man and said, “I know the scammer personally, he is related to me, very close family member, he has been doing this for a very long time. He just uses the name Bugatti to attract people, its not even the Bugatti that is real, he makes them out of junk cars in his back yard, and just sits and waits for a naive person to bite, hook, line and sinker, and hopefully the boat anchor too, so that one would never come out of the water to tell anyone about it. I will help you with your loss he said, “we will go to the real Bugatti owner, and tell him about what is going on here, and hopefully he will do something about it! We cannot do this by ourselves, the man got too many people that run this operation! All we have to do is just notify the Real Owner! He will deal with it!” I hope that this will help someone understand that sometimes its not all about the comforts that we are so accustomed to enjoy, its not about peace and tranquility that is so prevalent and disabling, its about a bigger picture! And as this quote that I read a while ago says: “The greatest man in history is Jesus. He had no servants, yet they called Him Master. He had no degree, yet the called Him Teacher. He had no medicines, yet they called Him Healer. He had no army, yet kings feared Him. He won no military battles, yet he conquered the world. He committed no crime, yet they crucified Him. He was buried in the tomb, but yet He lives today” Thats the Kind of Bugatti we have, we just need to drive it! Own it! Live it! With Him All things are possible. God Bless you all! Paul Vusik. |
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11-14-2021, 04:58 PM
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#10 |
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Admin/Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,100
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Re: A different Perspective!
Paul,
I understand your position. It is your freedom to walk in the path as you are led by the Lord, as we each walk before him the best we know how. Some may be motivated by fear, or cowardice…as you say. Some may be motivated by obedience to his voice. Regardless, we all one day may openly confront the LC leadership. My personal desire is to speak as led by the spirit, and pray that they are ready to hear. Nell |
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11-15-2021, 03:25 AM
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#11 | |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 278
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Re: A different Perspective!
Quote:
Hi, Paul! I will comment with my story only part for now. Lack of time. There was a party. One rich man invited some guests to show them brand new Bugatti. He enjoyed it so much and was very happy. After few months, during another show party, one stranger approached him. He was friend of friends, who had friends. He came from near State. He also purchased such a Bugatti, and after some time was ashamed by discovery it was a shell. Hi had a burden to go everywhere it happened and warn and tell people about fake Bugatti. So and now, when Hi approached owner of so called "bugatti", because of big pain and very difficult experience, he spoke loudly to everyone: Do not believe in it! This one is fake! " Do You know what happened next? All happy guest, together with owner and his wife and children, took this guy and kicked out. They didn't want lose good party and joyse. After few months the same man who was kicked out, was invited to his best friend's house for the same reason. Then, he approached his best friend in room with Bugatti and told him... . After those two events, this "kicked out" man, learned where and to whom hi can share hi experience. End of story. Your story was good and clear. Robert |
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12-18-2021, 05:25 PM
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#12 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 196
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Re: A different Perspective!
Difference between satanic deception vs THE TRUTH!!!
“When Christ was on earth He referred to the church two times—in Matthew 16 and Matthew 18. In the first instance, He referred to the universal church, and in the second instance, He referred to the local church. In speaking of the authority of the local church, He said, "If he refuses to hear the church also, let him be to you just like the Gentile and the tax collector" (18:17). This verse shows us that the authority of the church is derived from its representation of Christ. Christ has given His authority to the church and authorized the church to execute His will on earth. The Bible shows us that there are three ways in which a person can receive guidance from God: (1) God's Word—the Bible,  (2) the indwelling Holy Spirit, and (3) the church in a locality. The third line is the most important line.   The leading of the Bible and the Spirit are individual in nature, but the leading of the local church is corporate in nature. The local church, being the local expression of the Body of Christ, has the headship of Christ and, therefore, can know the mind of Christ, which is always communicated to His Body. The local church declares the headship of Christ. "Truly I say to you, Whatever you bind on the earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on the earth shall have been loosed in heaven" (v. 18). A person who sees the Body seeks fellowship and accepts the leading of the church. Often the decision of a church in a rural area is proven to be better than the decision of a church in the city. Such a decision does not originate from man's ability or wisdom but from the corporate seeking in one accord. In order to know God's will and His way, it is not enough for us to read the Bible or pray by ourselves. We have to be in the fellowship of the local church, live the Body life, and follow God's leading in the Body.”(https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n) VS Galatians 4:22-31 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Galatians 5:1-2 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. CONCLUSION: According to THE TLR, we should all throw away our BIBLES,  (I would actually agree with throwing away that corrupted recovery junk, good for kindling), forget about following the leading of the Holy Spirit, (and recieve a spirit of recovery's jesus), AND SUBMIT YOURSELVES TO THE MODERN DAY JUDAIZERS AND TLR HIGH PRIESTS!!!! THANK GOD FOR MY LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, AND THE FREEDOM AND LIBERTY IN HIM!!! |
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12-19-2021, 10:58 AM
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#13 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 278
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Re: A different Perspective!
[QUOTE=Paul Vusik;101554]The Bible shows us that there are three ways in which a person can receive guidance from God: (1) God's Word—the Bible,
(2) the indwelling Holy Spirit, and (3) the church in a locality. The third line is the most important line. The leading of the Bible and the Spirit are individual in nature, but the leading of the local church is corporate in nature. The local church, being the local expression of the Body of Christ, has the headship of Christ and, therefore, can know the mind of Christ, which is always communicated to His Body. The local church declares the headship of Christ. "Truly I say to you, Whatever you bind on the earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on the earth shall have been loosed in heaven" (v. 18). A person who sees the Body seeks fellowship and accepts the leading of the church. Often the decision of a church in a rural area is proven to be better than the decision of a church in the city. Such a decision does not originate from man's ability or wisdom but from the corporate seeking in one accord. In order to know God's will and His way, it is not enough for us to read the Bible or pray by ourselves. We have to be in the fellowship of the local church, live the Body life, and follow God's leading in the Body.”(https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n) I am glad for Your sharing, Paul! I was always wondering what role has group of saved people in this world and if this is important for God to have any expression. Answer is very simple. It is enough to reject all teachings and take a look in Bible what says about it. What WN and WL did is called "stretching the truth"... What is "Body life"? What is "God's leading in the Body"? Lier, lier, pants on fire... Two first points are MOST IMPORTANT! If not personal relationship with God, He would not send so many prophets with warnings to His people. There is no such a corporate hearing or receiving. We can bring some problem and then others can pray and receive the same answer from Holly Spirit. Last quoted words was way to establish group of people easy to manipulate and control. Another option is, that he was honest and just overemphesized matter of Body. Any way, his teaching was not based on Bible. I can see only certain people who was obey to God. There is only individual responsibility for our own acts. Of course there will be result of oneness in Spirit shown in mutual love among saints. But never in reversed way. We should never be focused on building anything. Verse, verses, and one more time verses. I have to reverse that false words in correct one: In order to know God's will and His way, it is ENOUGH for us to read the Bible or pray by ourselves. Then God will lead us to others. |
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12-19-2021, 01:34 PM
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#14 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 196
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Re: A different Perspective!
(2) Difference between satanic deception vs THE TRUTH!!!
"In order to accomplish His purpose, God already did three great things. The first thing is that God created man. He created man in His image and according to His likeness (Gen. 1:26). God created man not in the image of the birds or in the image of the beasts but in the image of God. What God created was man, but what came out was God. Today we are not only man; we are also God. We are man yet God. Likewise, today God is not only God; He is also man. He is God yet man. As a result, both God and man, both man and God, are completely alike and become a matching couple.  How wonderful this is!"https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n HAVE WE NOT HEARD THAT BEFORE SOMEWHERE??? Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. VS Gen 1:27 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. GOD DID NOT MAKE A MISTAKE WHILE TRYING TO CREATE A MAN, HE CREATED A MINI GOD. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Ephesians 4:22-25 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Col 3:8-11 8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 2 Cor 5-17-21 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. NETHER DO WE BECOME GOD AT ANY POINT OF OUR EXISTENCE!!! CONCLUSION. THE WORD OF GOD IS CLEAR AND SIMPLE. YOU ETHER LISTEN TO THE SERPENT AND HIS SERVANTS, OR READ AND BELIEVE GOD, AND THE WORD OF GOD! THEREFORE, IF ANYONE CAN PUT 2+2 TOGETHER, YOU KNOW WHERE AND HOW THE WHOLE TLR SYSTEM IS BUILD. PLEASE, READ THE WORD OF GOD AND DON'T FALL FOR THE SAME LIE! IF YOU ARE A PERSON OF ANY AGE, WHETHER YOU ARE A BELIEVER OR NOT, AND ARE BEING RECRUITED BY THIS SCAM, I BEG YOU CRY OUT TO REAL GOD, REAL JESUS, AND STAY OUT OF THIS SCAM BY A MILLION MILES!!! |
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12-19-2021, 02:18 PM
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#15 |
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Re: A different Perspective!
Auch! Saints! Not red!!! My eyes!
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12-19-2021, 02:48 PM
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#16 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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The Dispensing, Transformation and Building of the Processed Divine Trinity in the Believers by Witness Lee on www.ministrybooks.org |
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12-19-2021, 02:48 PM
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#17 | |
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Posts: 278
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Re: A different Perspective!
Quote:
The Dispensing, Transformation and Building of the Processed Divine Trinity in the Believers by Witness Lee on www.ministrybooks.org https://www.ministrybooks.org/Search...?id=2CC3CE08D4 |
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12-19-2021, 03:01 PM
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#18 | |
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Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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Re: A different Perspective!
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 . On my first reading of this, I certainly thought it was too much. On my second reading, I still thought it was too much. As I have read and reread several times, I continue to think it's too much. However, what is described in the New Testament regarding believers is also quite high . . . well beyond our natural thought! So while I think Lee goes too far in trying to grasp this thought, most Christian teachers I hear probably don't go far enough. Therefore, I sometimes wish I could dial Lee back a couple notches in his rhetoric on this matter, but also wish other teachers would ratchet it up a few notches.
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LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS! |
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12-19-2021, 03:16 PM
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#19 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
Quote:
But main big mistake was words he used. I think he really saw that organic aspect of what is going in us and among us. But let's imagine him, using proper words in place that unfortunate. What God created was man, but what came out was new creation. Today we are not only man; we are also New Creation! We are man yet Something NEW! Likewise, today God is not only God; He is also man. He is God yet man. As a result, both God and man, both man and NEW CREATION, are completely alike and become a matching couple. How wonderful this is! How mysterious! We do not understand this fully for now! Sounds more healthy and biblically? |
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12-19-2021, 04:44 PM
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#20 |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,824
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Re: A different Perspective!
To Paul and everyone.
Please do not use any font size above 3, and please only use font size 3 sparingly. Also use the bold feature and the color red sparingly as well. Thanks for your understanding as we try to make LCD as readable as possible for all our valued members and readers. Your brother who is unto Him. -
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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12-19-2021, 05:33 PM
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#21 | ||
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Re: A different Perspective!
Quote:
Quote:
Robert, Sons of Glory, I find it very sad to read these, and not because of its contents but because of the rational behind it. I wish that sometimes we would look at the big picture, the foundational issues of what is discussed, rather than treat the contents as a simple one of misunderstanding, using incorrect language, and as some others have said "translational issues". Can we look at these a bit deeper? Look for the roots, rather than symptoms? I will address couple of things mention in these 2 posts: 1. There is absolutely no mistake, no possible chance, that any and all of the writings, are a misuse of language, incorrect terminology e.c.t. If anyone is willing to put in time and effort, going through and trying to see and read what is says, without preconceived assumptions, you will soon find out that all these writing are not mistakes, translation errors, second language issues, misquotations, things taken out of context. One will find that this is a deliberate effort, preconceived attempts, to downgrade, dishonor, lower God and the completed work of Christ, in an attempt to uplift themselves to be that of the same, in order to deceive and man, so that their junk that they have invented, can be sold to general population. This thing that exist now (TLR), does not exist because God is there, it’s only exist because there are hundreds and thousands of people in this world who refuse to recognize God for who He is, recognize who we are , BELIVE BY FAITH the written Word of God, and completed work of Christ. These man would have no chance to even exist, had faith in God was the main aspect of todays world. There are exceptions in (TLR), people who were born into it and never knew anything else beside that, and people who are a genuine seekers who got fooled by these scammers. Those are the people that we should pray and ask God to free from these chains!!! 2. As I stated in the previous post, God created a MAN, not gods, not new creation. He created a MAN!!!! However, man choose to disobey God's only rule, as everyone knows. Then, the same MAN, FAILED throughout the Old Testament and through the law to fulfill Gods righteous requirements to be justified before Him. And only then, when the time came, Christ came into the world to complete these requirements and satisfy God. [COLOR="red"]And now, only through FAITH ALONE, CHRIST ALONE, +/- NOTHING, one has the chance to be made a new creation! There is no other way, no other option! So, if you start with the notion that God created gods, or created new creation, all of the work of Christ is voided and of no use!!! We need to stop making excuses for these junk salesman, and even to most modern day preachers today, who are nothing but a hirelings and modern day Pharisees, who made a career out of God. Remember, when calling becomes a career, and inspiration is traded for education, then this is what you get! |
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12-19-2021, 05:36 PM
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#22 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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Got it. Will do my best from now on. |
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12-19-2021, 06:02 PM
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#23 | |
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Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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Re: A different Perspective!
Quote:
I do agree with the part I underlined above . . . way, WAY too much of this in the church now!
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LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS! |
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12-21-2021, 04:09 PM
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#24 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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Who started with such a notion? I hear first time such a conclusion. And another: God created new creation. And coming to the point of discussion. I do not excuse him either accuse. I can only share what I noticed, experienced, learned in my personal journey. I was in among saints in LC over 20 years. How do You think, was I sleeping? Last time I mentioned with others, that there is no other group in the world, which invest so much time on reading Bible and teaching saints. So, yes, I do benefit a lot from that time. I am thankful to God for that time. But the same time, Lord was merciful, and allowed me to see many unbiblical things, hypocrisy of leaders and some heresies. But goal of my small church was not to follow teaching at that time, but to gather together and build each other. So it was not like, that when I saw mistakes I jumped out from church like burning. No, it was process. As I said below, some of WL teachings was unbiblical and went too far. I think this is so obvious to most of posters ( former members). Here is verse: Gal 6:15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. In Eph is about one new man. I do not tink any one want to built any doctrine reversing events. Death Christ on cross produced ecclesia. I think this is obvious and no one discuss it. According WL intentions. In his books everything is described how he saw evertything. We do not have to agree with everything but it was his vision and that is it. We can point out mistakes or show places where he went too far. That is good! I am very glad that Lord gives us revelation and we do not have any longer stand in mistake. This is stiil mystery for me, if it was his intention to create testimony of church we see now. Even language I use now is from LC. Today I answered to one dear brother and demaged his view of so called "testimony", biblical "law suits" etc. Unfortunately result of that teaching we see now. But was it WL intention? I he responsible for what happened after 1997? Some teachings are very wrong. But some good. So let us separate judgment of works or teaching from judging intention or man. |
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12-21-2021, 04:29 PM
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#25 |
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Posts: 278
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Re: A different Perspective!
To Paul Vasiuk
I was almost about to change my mind and add some defending words about WL but I see what StG underlined. "Remember, when calling becomes a career, and inspiration is traded for education, then this is what you get!" This says all. I could not say it shorter. Now we can only guess if it was he, who did not want any correction from broters, or it was saints, who adore him and treated as holly and untouchable... Only God knows. |
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05-13-2022, 11:15 PM
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#26 |
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Posts: 196
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Re: A different Perspective!
Just sharing something very personal,
I know it’s very hard for us men to express our true reality in front of others, especially on a public forum. But I will venture out on the limb, with some hope and understanding from people that went through some of this before. How difficult is it to just go through every day seeing your family, your wife and kids being destroyed. I’m not sure if there is a worst feeling that you can have, than that. Something that you are responsible for is being destroyed right in front of your eyes. The worst part, is that there is absolutely nothing you can do, but pray to God for mercy and grace. There is no silver bullet that can be pulled to change things, there is no words that will change the circumstances, there is no exercise to be done, there is no U turn that can be made, or there is no possible way to see an out of the situation. But only one hope, that’s is God! There is no way to express the situation, no way to describe the circumstances, no way to put it in words the things that sometimes are just unbearable. But putting all your trust in God, is just a beautiful experience! I hope there is someone that understands the things that one has to go through, with the hope and the believe that God will find a way, when there is none available. Everyone have a good weekend! God bless!
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“You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you.” ― C.S. Lewis |
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05-14-2022, 11:58 AM
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#27 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 2,617
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Re: A different Perspective!
Quote:
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LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS! |
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05-16-2022, 12:29 PM
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#28 | |
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Posts: 196
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Re: A different Perspective!
Quote:
Thanks for encouraging words, and I’ll keep you in my prayers also.
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“You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you.” ― C.S. Lewis |
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05-27-2022, 10:01 PM
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#29 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 196
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Re: A different Perspective!
Quote:
Sorry I transferred your post here, and didn’t want to get another warning about destroying the thread “Main points”, but wanted to reply to this line here. I just say that this topic was on my mind and heart when I was going through the process of getting out. I had all kinds of things that I thought, how can I say this or that? I prayed about it, and the Lord reminded me of an incident that happened when I was young. One day someone stuck a fake snake on my pillow, and when I went to bed, I freaked out. I could not tell the difference between them. Few days later they put one again and it had slightly different look to it, so almost the same results. But when it happened the third time around, I took this thing out, and stepped on it and threw it right back in their face. So the point is, when you figure out that all this fear and threats that the LC throws on people is all fake, and has zero power, then you just state things the way they are, and trust God to hopefully be a small part of exposing them for what they truly are. But I appreciate your warning and concerns. We all will die one day anyway, it’s what you left behind for your children and someone else to use, and not to make the same mistakes again, that’s what going to matter.
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“You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you.” ― C.S. Lewis |
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05-29-2022, 09:00 AM
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#30 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 196
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Re: A different Perspective!
I haven’t done this for a while, but I have been collecting some quotes from the LC, (and after reading the book “The God-men” this week, which is a further proof of my own conclusions), I just wanted to again demonstrate to those who are maybe by some miracle would do some research and study of what the LC is about, before JUMPING / DIVING into it head first.
WARNING: The pool is empty, they have just painted it to look like there is actually water there. These quotes will be further proof of the fact that the LC, offers different god, than the one described in the Bible. So here are few of them, with my comments. “Our spirit today is God's dwelling place. Even more, the local churches are God's dwelling place. Hence, we must turn to our spirit, and We must turn to the local church; then we will be clear. Our spirit and the local church are the places where we receive divine revelation, where we obtain the explanation to all our problems.” https://www.ministrybooks.org/Search...?id=1BE024AA8F Two things from here: 1. “Even more” and “We must” statements, are not only lies and deception, but a total manipulation. The LC is not a dwelling place of God, nor should anyone turn to it. 2. Not a single person in this world needs the LC to receive revelation, and explanation. All that can be found the the Word of God. Furthermore, there will be zero explanation for your problems, but further exacerbation of them. The spirit of recovery might give you temporary, feel good, emotional cover, that you are going to get addicted too, but will never give you that which can only be gained by and through the work of the Holy Spirit. To further demonstrate this “fake cover”, here is the next quote. “Are you sorrowful? Then what should you do? Yes, come to the church meetings. Do not attempt to encourage yourself and overcome your problems. Bring all your sorrows to the local church, and tell the enemy Satan to go with you to the meeting. If your wife is angry, just tell her, “Dear, let us go to the church.” Do not try to solve your problems in your home and then come to the church. You will be frustrated. Tell all the enemies and all the problems, “Come with me to the meeting.” I have had many experiences like this. As soon as I have come into the entrance of the meeting hall, the enemies and problems have fled.” https://www.ministrybooks.org/Search...?id=1BE024AD8C The LC, not only promotes but practices exact methods stated above. Since they have no solutions or can offer any input to any problems but to bury them as they don’t exist, THATS all they got. And the magic trick is, to “get into your spirit” and “enter into a meeting hall”. And if those things don’t work, maybe you just not the son of piece or you haven’t destroyed yourself and your mind enough to not see the realities that are actually there in your life. It is only until your mental and comprehensive acutely functioning systems are destroyed, by the work of “the spirit”, them you just become unaware of things that are going on around you. If you call that a solution, then please join in. Because if you go to the LC, you won’t hear anything of substance that will make one stop and think, which my next quote further illustrates. The church is not a place for the education or correction of people. The church is not a place to change people. https://www.ministrybooks.org/Search...?id=1BE42AA886 For starters, don’t expect to go to the LC meeting and hear a message of any kind. Don’t think there will be some high things spoken that will give you some compass for life. There is no such thing. You will first have to buy a LC dictionary, in order to even understand 75% of things spoken there. Then, you will have to understand where they coming from, and why is it presented that way. But don’t worry, they got pamphlets, manuals, step by step instructions to get you through it. Just “trust” them, they got you. They will take care of you, “we all in this together” type thing. You know, their god doesn’t allow them to confront anyone and anything, speak anything that might offend somebody, or their evil works. After all, evil must be present in order that their god, can manifest himself to them, which is covered by the next quote. God is not sorry that there is such an evil one as Satan, because without such a one, God's manifold wisdom could not be manifested. https://www.ministrybooks.org/Search...?id=15EA29A78A Do you see it? Did you catch it? Their god is so limited in what he can do for you, that he needs satan to manifest himself, otherwise he is powerless. Their god is so inept, that he probably even originated evil one so that he can actually show his wisdom. Their god, cannot function without the evil one, because you know that when he created man, their god didn’t say “it was very good”, but said that they still need to be regenerated and become gods, which is covered in the next quote. “When we were created, we obtained only created life; we did not obtain God’s uncreated life. God’s purpose for us human beings is that we may obtain His uncreated life and be transformed into His image to be like Him, as He is. Therefore, even if our human life had not been corrupted, we would still need to be regenerated.” https://www.ministrybooks.org/Search...?id=1AE424AD8C Got it? I know that he makes thinks a bit muddy, but let me translate that for you: According to the LC’s god, that the fall of man, and the sin that they committed plays no role in grand scheme of things, or very little. Christ death on the cross wasn’t necessary for atonement of sins, but He would have had to come to the world anyway to die and to offer a way to “regenerate” even the people that God created into His image, and said “it was very good”. Because all their god want from you, or cares for, is to make you gods. Good, evil, right, wrong, bearing fruits, is all unnecessary, just focus on the main objective, be like god! It very simple process, you just COMMAND your spirit, and since you are “one spirit with god”, the Lord commands with you. It’s all about YOU! You are in control! It’s the recovered way! It’s been buried for centuries, but now, you can have it all for YOURSELF! And that’s the god of the LC in the nutshell. It's actually you are now God, and He is just a “processed triune, seven fold intensified spirit”, that just follows your orders on demand!
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“You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you.” ― C.S. Lewis |
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05-29-2022, 09:39 PM
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#31 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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The couple ended up divorced. |
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05-29-2022, 10:58 PM
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#32 | |
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Posts: 196
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Re: A different Perspective!
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I guess maybe it’s just my experience, which is due to my profession and what I do for living. I really doubt that 95% of people who are in recovery ever get exposed to these things. They get together on Sunday and put on a mask, and pretend that everything is great and smells like a rose. One thing I learned when I was a kid, never to be a mediator between a couple, under no circumstances. I had to stand up for my mom, and understood what position I put myself in. I’m not the one who will ever give up privacy or talk about names or families, but I’ll just say this: I have been around people when there is no meeting and no planned evens of any sorts. I have been around people when the masks are off and there is no leading brothers to be afraid off. I have worked in peoples homes sometimes for weeks at the time, and some days I would have to listen to all of their things for hours while I’m working. I know what the “real” life looks like, and I’m not judging anyone by any means. I’m just stating that the facts are the facts. When people come to you and ask for help, and you are just a dumb carpenter that’s working to make ends meet somehow, and really never studied or really knows how to help, you know that they are not getting anything from those so called “Shepards” nor do they find any use for. When you come to someone’s house and before you can work, they just dump a bucket of their issues on you, and you just there to do some construction or remodeling, you realize there is something wrong with this picture. You try to offer what you got, and pray for them, but eventually having this happen almost constantly, you just start questioning and come to some senses. I will leave it at that, but it’s disturbing what people go through, and call it “Life”, never to realize that they have been duped and lost their children and families in the process. There are hundreds of parents of the LC, who on the altar of this scam, threw away family’s, children, marriages, and personal relationships, all for the sake of this fantasy. They get together, if allowed by children, and talk about birds and airplanes, because just a mere mention of God, will trigger events that’s insurmountable to approach by most people.
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“You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you.” ― C.S. Lewis |
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05-30-2022, 11:17 AM
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#33 | |
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Posts: 968
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Re: A different Perspective!
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Actually, Nee and Lee were not the first ones wanting to be like God. There was another being that wanted to be like the Most High! "I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” Isaiah 14:14 Anytime you read "you must become like God" think of the above verse.
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Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry. |
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05-30-2022, 11:49 AM
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#34 | |
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Posts: 1,523
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Re: A different Perspective!
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The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not a bad or poisoned tree......so I don't see that "being like God, knowing good and evil" is a bad thing to want to be or to be. Eventually in Hebrews, mature believers are shown to be the ones who distinguish good from evil, so "being like God, knowing good and evil"......doesn't seem like a bad thing there either. I don't agree with the local church teaching of baby gods or "God in life and nature but not in the Godhead", or that we somehow have the "uncreated life of God" because we are always going to be created creatures that were not alive backwards into eternity past......but I'm not sure that wanting to be like God is the broad-brush evil thing that it is often painted to be. Thoughts? Trapped |
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05-30-2022, 07:56 PM
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#35 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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But we're only human. I can't blame anyone for wanting to be God/god. We're so pathetic as humans wishful dreaming is comforting. Down to earth, of course we can't be anything like God, big G or little g. We're certainly not of any of the extra Biblical "Omni's." I guess there's no harm in thinking or believing we can be God. Just don't jump off a tall building, or think you are something like a Superman. To be honest, believing we can be like God is silly talk. Blessings Trapped Harold
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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05-31-2022, 05:59 PM
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#36 | ||
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Location: Texas
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Re: A different Perspective!
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05-31-2022, 07:00 PM
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#37 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
Quote:
That statement was true that they would be like God, knowing good and evil. That was a true statement. I don't see anywhere in the text in Genesis 2 or 3 that says that it is a bad thing, given particularly, as I mentioned, that mature believers in Hebrews are shown to be those who distinguish good from evil. I often see the wholesale condemnation of wanting to be like God, as if all wanting to be like God involves pride and rebellion and wanting to usurp the throne just because that's what Satan's was about. But from what I can tell, the Bible seems to show a side to "wanting to be like God" that we SHOULD want (be perfect as our heavenly Father, comfort others with the comfort we received from God, etc). I just don't often see that distinction, and so I was seeing if anyone would elaborate to reconcile the two a little bit like I've tried to describe in this short paragraph. Trapped |
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06-01-2022, 06:24 AM
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#38 | |
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Admin/Moderator
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Location: Texas
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Re: A different Perspective!
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Genesis 3:13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. Thinking that a desire to be "like God" was/is a good thing is truly cringeworthy. The woman thought it was a good idea, yet this was the catalyst for the fall of Man. I recall a little testimony from days of yore...a sister said she didn't give a testimony in the meeting because she was sitting on the back row. Another sister asked her "Who told you you were sitting on the back row?" Nell |
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06-01-2022, 08:25 AM
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#39 | |
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Posts: 196
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Re: A different Perspective!
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I will try to put in the simplest form possible, on how I view this subject of “becoming gods”. The issue is a very simple one, it started with satan, and the same issue led to the fall, and the same issue and offer is on the table every day for each and every person that exist today. The issue is this: As a created being, whether it was satan to begin with, or the couple in the garden, or each of us today, a desire to be equal to or of the same uncreated essence as the Most High. That drive and unattainable false fantasy has driven satan out of heaven and man out of paradise, and it’s the same today as it ever was. It’s the drive for knowing things that belong to God only, the desire for worship, power, authority, and control that’s what is offered in the satan’s offer of “you will be like gods”. The gap between God the uncreated, or the Most High, and created man/angels/satan never ceased to exist, nor did it shrunk by any slightest of margins. Jesus Christ coming into this world showed what God is all about. From His ministry, from how Him subjecting Himself to the Father, and from all that He accomplished to redeem us, and return us to have fellowship with our Creator, and our God. He never once offered anyone the ability to possess that kind of “uncreated life”, it’s not found in any Bible text. But it is offered in the LC, and by their god. For these reasons, most people dismiss the satan fall as “rebellion”, that’s has no further roots, and dismiss the fall of “man” as an issue of “disobedience”, as if they did it just for fun. Both had the same idea in mind, and being deceived by that unattainable fantasy, took steps towards rebellion and disobedience. That fantasy and deception is stated by satan himself as an architect of it and the originator, Isaiah 14:14 14*I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Or the modern interpretation of it, “You will be just as god, in life and in nature, just not in the Godhead”
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“You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you.” ― C.S. Lewis |
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06-01-2022, 10:22 AM
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#40 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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1 And he said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden?’ ” 4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent told her. 5 “For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Which part was true and which part was a lie? Trapped |
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06-01-2022, 10:27 AM
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#41 |
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Re: A different Perspective!
Where in the Bible is it said that the serpent in the garden was Satan?
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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06-01-2022, 10:31 AM
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#42 |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Posts: 3,824
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Re: A different Perspective!
Good morning Harold, hope all is well with you and yours!
----------------------------------------------- -And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Revelation 12:9 ESV ----------------------------------------------- -
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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06-01-2022, 11:17 AM
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#43 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Re: A different Perspective!
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I believe this will be when the “man of sin” will be revealed. (2 Thess 2.8-9)
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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06-01-2022, 06:10 PM
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#44 | |
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Admin/Moderator
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Re: A different Perspective!
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Context means something. In Luke 4, Scripture spoken by Satan to Jesus had the purpose to tempt Jesus to worship Satan. In his response, Jesus never said that Satan was not telling the truth. Rather, Jesus quoted scripture right back at him...implying that Satan was missing the point of the verses. For example: Luke 4:3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.” 4 And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’” Was Jesus free to obey the challenge of Satan: "If you are who you say you are, do as I say!" After all, Satan was quoting scriptural truth. Descriptive scripture which describes something that happened, is not to be prescribed as Christian teachings, i.e., becoming like God; one church one city, etc. We are warned in 1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; This is exactly what happened to the woman in Genesis 3. She was seduced...seduced by the serpent who used the words of God in the scriptures. The serpent used God's words which became a doctrine of a devil...the devil. Further, we are charged to test all things. Scripture is to be understood with the understanding of the Holy Spirit. Anything that is based solely on understanding of the human mind can be the basis for deception. So how do you test the scripture for an accurate interpretation? Keep in mind that scripture is spiritually discerned, and not mentally discerned. Does the spirit agree with your interpretation of truth? Does something you hear, such as a Witness Lee teaching, make you cringe? Maybe not even cringe, but make you hesitate to accept this "truth"? In this case "If you don't know the truth of a matter, don't form an opinion until you do know." 1 Cor. 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: We need spiritual wisdom and maturity. Nell |
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06-01-2022, 06:51 PM
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#45 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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The true part is that their eyes would be opened, and that they would be like God, knowing good and evil. That part was the truth. The Bible says, as you know, that their eyes were opened. And God Himself said "they have become like one of us, knowing good and evil." So we have direct biblical confirmation that that part of what the serpent said was true. It doesn't become less true if it is said by a serpent. But the serpent/Satan mixed truth with lies. The lie he told was that they would not surely die. That was the lie. That was the deception. God was true to his word and punished them with death for disobeying, and Satan tried to tell Eve that this would not happen. As we know, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was part of the creation that God called "good". It is described as being "good for food". As has been discussed by many people in numerous places on this forum, the tree was not poisonous and was not the source of death. This is not an evil tree; it was just off-limits. Additionally, as I have said a couple times now, Hebrews 5:14 states explicitly that mature believers are those who distinguish good from evil. This has to be the case if believers are to judge situations in the church, if believers are to discern properly to put sexually immoral ones out of the church, if elders are to be impartial in deciding courses of action concering disputes, etc... Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained their senses to distinguish good from evil. So once again, biblically, I simply do not see that "being like God, knowing good and evil" is some terrible sinful (or....cringeworthy) thing, and I'm surprised that I'm getting pushback on this, given my clear explanation. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. When we see Him, we see the Father. And we are being conformed to His image. Thus, logically, the appropriate course of our Christian life is indeed to become more like God. It's pretty confusing to hear this position being called cringeworthy. Becoming like God is different than "becoming God" in any way, whether qualified or unqualified. I'm not supporting Witness Lee's ridiculous doctrine in the slightest. But this feels like a baby/bathwater situation. It's evil and rebellious to be like God or to want to be like God? I mean, God is good, righteous, loving, comforting, etc, etc...... You mean I should NOT want to be any of those things? This makes no sense. It's like I'm getting pushback just for the sake of pushback. Trapped |
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06-01-2022, 06:53 PM
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#46 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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06-01-2022, 06:58 PM
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#47 |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Re: A different Perspective!
Well thank you my dear friend Harold. And always, always remember....there are no stupid questions. I'm here to help
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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06-01-2022, 08:37 PM
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#48 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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Blessings ... Harold
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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06-02-2022, 10:22 AM
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#49 |
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Re: A different Perspective!
Plus, God curses the serpent to crawl in his belly and eat dust : the snakes today.
Basically, the serpent in the garden was not Satan. That's a false presumption, encompassing Christian tradition ; like Mary was the mother of God.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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06-02-2022, 03:53 PM
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#50 |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Re: A different Perspective!
Harold, Harold, Harold. Basically the serpent in the garden was Satan. You asked for a verse. I posted a verse that says exactly that - that "the ancient serpent" IS "the devil and Satan". Of course this encompasses Christian tradition my man - it's in the Bible! Jesus' walking on water is Christian tradition too, and so is Jesus Christ raising from the dead after three days. Some traditions are just wonderful.
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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06-02-2022, 08:50 PM
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#51 | |
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Posts: 196
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Re: A different Perspective!
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I think that there is a huge difference between what you described there, which all are attributes and virtues of God, that we are to strive after and can posses as stated in 2 Pet 1. But it’s completely different to want to become like God in life and nature, which cannot be accomplished. As stated here already, satan likes to play on words and use Bible to dupe people into his trap.
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“You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you.” ― C.S. Lewis |
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06-02-2022, 10:02 PM
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#52 | |
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Posts: 1,523
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Re: A different Perspective!
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Yep - that's the exact point I've made several times. The local church wants us to think we can "become God in xyz way", which is ludicrous. But in our dismissing those ludicrous teachings, then sometimes similar things like "becoming LIKE God" get caught up in that and swept aside as if wanting to "become like God" in various ways is an evil thing. But the Bible says plainly, like you affirmed, that there are indeed ways in which we SHOULD strive to "be like God" or "become (since it's a process) like God". I just kept seeing absolute statements that wanting to become like God was a bad thing, and it was just so obvious that there needed to be a distinction made. Of COURSE we should want to become like God or become more like God in all kinds of positive ways - as you said we are to strive after and can possess these things - and I felt that a clarification was warranted strongly enough to write a post. Just as God is our Father and we are His sons......it is strange for a son to want to actually "become his father" (that's a muddling of persons), but it is not strange at all for a son to want to "become like his father". These distinctions are important, and that's the distinction I was trying (maybe poorly, but I don't think so) to get across. It is a good thing that in our Christian life as we submit to His will, then naturally our behavior, actions, living, character, etc will indeed "become more like God". The problem with Satan's desire in this regard was that he wanted to usurp God's position/authority, etc. But that's not what a Christian "becoming like God" is at all, though. Trapped |
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06-02-2022, 10:55 PM
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#53 | |
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Posts: 196
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Re: A different Perspective!
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You have to say that the LC teachings, for the most part dismiss all of those attributes and virtues as secondary at best, but focus on all the rest of things that are literally made up. Their measurements of having “Jesus”, are whether or not you got enough into their visions and received enough of their spirits leading to comply with their “god”. I sometimes just can believe that people who left this thing, can’t admit this simplest of things. Just as a side note, I actually made a list of things that this fake “wanting to be like god” is and what our Lord Jesus Christ showed us how God is actually expressed. Hopefully this will be a help to somebody. These are based on my study of the Bible and different instances describe in different passages. Wanting to be like god according to satans offer, and how it’s expressed: - [ ] Desire for ultimate knowledge - [ ] Desire for power - [ ] Desire for control - [ ] Desire for personal uplifting over others - [ ] Desire for domination over other - [ ] Desire for destruction of all Gods created order. - [ ] Desire for creating worldly kingdoms - [ ] Desire to claim authority over something and someone, such as “ground”, and city or territories, collection of people. - [ ] Desire to promote itself, over promoting the Most High. Thus, is a form of receiving worship. - [ ] Desire to cause destruction, under the precepts of love and care, security. - [ ] Desire to create own disciples - [ ] Desire and drive for deification, over humbleness and servitude - [ ] Desire to focus and sacrifice all aspects of one’s life on selfish goals - [ ] Desire and drive for things that are unattainable by created beings - [ ] Desire to be teacher, master, father (spiritual meaning), and be in the position of authority Vs What Christ showed us how to be one with God, and how it’s expressed: - [ ] He submitted Himself to the Father - [ ] He did the will of the Father - [ ] He spoke the things of/from the Father - [ ] He didn’t exalt Himself - [ ] He offered that what came from the Father - [ ] He didn’t build His kingdom or claimed any ground in this world - [ ] He cared not for any worldly domination or subduing humans under His rule, by His power and authority - [ ] He became a slave to His creation - [ ] He cared and loved the hurt, sick, afflicted and the outcast - [ ] He attracted people to Himself by His love and care for them, not by deception - [ ] He proclaimed freedom from sin and promise of salvation - [ ] He opposed and rebuked the manmade systems and methods - [ ] He said, if you want to be the greatest, be the servant. - [ ] He cared and promoted healing everywhere He went, and not destruction, or lording over. - [ ] He sacrificed Himself for redemption and satisfaction for all the sin of the world - [ ] He was exalted by the Father Here are the two “you will be like God”, available for everyone, and that choice is made everyday by every one, whether they admit to it or not.
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“You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you.” ― C.S. Lewis Last edited by Paul Vusik; 06-02-2022 at 11:00 PM. Reason: Autocorrect errors |
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06-02-2022, 11:12 PM
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#54 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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06-03-2022, 10:32 AM
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#55 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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I grew up with the Serpent being Satan. The SBC hasn't been around that long, basically since the mid 19th century. Satan is rather recent too. You see, when Genesis was written, around the 8th century before the common era, Satan wasn't conceptualized ; the Israelites, and Canaanites, had no conception of Satan. That's why what Genesis says about the serpent is he/it was : “the most clever of all of the beasts of the field that God had made,” and the devil is not mentioned. If the serpent was the devil that would be a necessary remark in the text. The Southern Baptist's hold that the Bible is the inspired inerrant word of God, but they grabbed the traditional teaching about the serpent, superimposing the devil into the serpent in Eden. ; that didn't exist in those ancient times. But I get it : that the Baptist belief about the serpent was just passed down to me. Tradition gave the answers to me and I had no reason but to accept them. But in this case, concerning the serpent, Tradition is not scriptural. Revelation 12:9 does not mention the garden of Eden. And the serpent in 100 CE is not the same serpent in 800BCE, because the Satan hadn't been thought of back then.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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06-03-2022, 10:48 AM
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#56 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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At least I've never known someone that accomplished it. You'd think that if anyone, that would be Witness Lee. But with all his eating Jesus you'd think he would have been there. But Witness Lee never became God in life and nature. Does anyone out here know somebody that became God in life and nature?
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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06-03-2022, 11:46 AM
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#57 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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I personally ended up concluding that this is one of those things that isn't critical to nail down with absolute certainty. Trapped |
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06-03-2022, 11:55 AM
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#58 |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Re: A different Perspective!
Harold, Harold my loveable atheist friend...as usual you're all washed up when it comes to biblical timelines and facts. Satan is not "recent", and the earliest of Israelites probably had a pretty good conception of Satan. Even if you were correct about when Genesis was written (dubious at best) almost all biblical scholars posit that Job was written before Genesis, and is almost universally thought to be the first book of the Bible. And looky here - Satan is mentioned prominently in the book of Job. So your uneducated guess that the Israelites had no conception of Satan is just that - an uneducated guess, and one that stands in opposition against the educated pronouncements of most O.T. scholars and teachers.
Strike two. Go ahead my friend, close your eyes shut, take another hard swing, and be prepared to head to the dugout. No shame in getting struck out by the Bible and historical facts....happens to the best of us. -
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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06-03-2022, 01:11 PM
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#59 |
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Re: A different Perspective!
The dugout? What's that? Where is it?
So you win the discussion by fiat? But you are wrong about scholars and teachers, and the date of the book of Job. But thanks for your input. And I am an atheist I don't believe in Zeus, or any other of the Greek/Roman gods. I'm just like the early Christians, who were considered atheists.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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06-04-2022, 02:02 AM
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#60 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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Moses wrote around 1500BC while leading Israel thru the wilderness. Later King David ruled Israel around 1000 BC.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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06-04-2022, 02:19 AM
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#61 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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06-04-2022, 07:50 AM
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#62 |
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Re: A different Perspective!
I’m going change up the subject here a bit, and just wanted to ask a general question ether from forum members or anyone visiting. This question is mainly addressed to those people who came to the LC after already being a Christian and experiencing the Lord. So the question is this;
Upon your joining the LC, and if you were already baptized (water baptized as a Christian, not infant baptized), where you at any point persuaded or told that you need to be baptized again? If so, did anyone explained why? I don’t want to start another thread here on this subject, so this thread will do.
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“You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you.” ― C.S. Lewis |
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06-04-2022, 11:00 AM
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#63 |
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Location: Huntsville, AL
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Re: A different Perspective!
Baptized at 8 years old at a Baptist church.
Baptized again in the LC in my teens. I do not recall anyone suggesting this to me. It was just something I thought I needed to do. |
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06-04-2022, 02:06 PM
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#64 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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All this over the serpent in the garden being or not being Satan. Truth is, I don't know. How could I? But nobody can know ... either. Most just accept the Traditional answer : that the serpent was the devil. And if UntoHim wants to believe that, or anybody else, more power to them. In the end, what does it matter either way? The devil is just an enemy that Jesus tells us to love. Now, where's that dugout? Thanks for your input.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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06-05-2022, 08:20 AM
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#65 | |
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Location: Florida
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Re: A different Perspective!
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This verse seems to refer to an earlier encounter between the Lord and the great serpent. What do you think? Isaiah 51:9 New King James Version Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord! Awake as in the ancient days, In the generations of old. Are You not the arm that cut Rahab apart, And wounded the serpent?
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Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86 |
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06-05-2022, 10:52 AM
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#66 |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Re: A different Perspective!
Good morning Zeek! Good to hear from you my friend!
My interpretation, for what it's worth, would be that you are correct. This is a reference to God's dealing with "the great serpent" (AKA Satan, the Devil) there in the opening chapters of Genesis. -
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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06-05-2022, 11:01 AM
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#67 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86 |
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06-05-2022, 12:10 PM
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#68 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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06-05-2022, 03:53 PM
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#69 |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Re: A different Perspective!
Hey Harold, you should be thanking Zeek for bringing up yet another solid evidence that the Israelites did indeed have a conception of Satan. Their most important prophet, Isaiah, proclaims that the God of the Israelites "wounded the serpent"...a clear reference to the events chronicled in the opening chapters of Genesis.
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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06-05-2022, 06:25 PM
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#70 | |
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Re: A different Perspective!
Quote:
Jesus the serpent? Was he the serpent in the garden?
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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06-05-2022, 07:23 PM
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#71 |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,824
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Re: A different Perspective!
Wrong serpent Harold. Get your snakes straight my man! And for God's sake, stop using google as your bible study aid. Like I told you before, I'm here to help!
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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06-05-2022, 11:00 PM
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#72 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,064
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Re: A different Perspective!
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A serpent here, a serpent there, a serpent everywhere. All of them the devil ... except for Jesus.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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06-06-2022, 08:58 AM
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#73 |
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Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 196
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Re: A different Perspective!
2 Corinthians 1:24
King James Version 24*Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand. I just wanted to share this verse that I read this weekend, to encourage and remind us that even Paul, who was a real apostle, had a clear understanding of what his responsibilities and relationship to the saints in Corinth was, and what it wasn’t. “Nor for that we have dominion over your faith”! What a refreshing and healthy way of understanding! What a joy to not have entanglements of spiritual bondage of some manmade yoke’s, like the LC! What a great encouragement that “by faith we stand”! May God lead more people to experience this joy, liberty, and encouragement of Paul. “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free,….” Gal 5:1.
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“You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you.” ― C.S. Lewis |
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06-06-2022, 07:20 PM
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#74 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,223
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Re: A different Perspective!
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By the way, Paul Vusik, welcome to LCD! I'm glad to hear you're enjoying your freedom. Perhaps freedom always comes at a price. It's a precious commodity, as it were.
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Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86 Last edited by zeek; 06-06-2022 at 08:53 PM. |
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06-06-2022, 08:47 PM
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#75 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,064
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Re: A different Perspective!
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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06-06-2022, 11:41 PM
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#76 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 196
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Re: A different Perspective!
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I have to say there is no such thing as free, and there is a price to pay for it. And I guess having and enjoying a normal, healthy family and friends would fall into that category? Having to rebuild your life from like zero, sounds also very “exciting”. Seems to me there is a pattern with this system, that’s evident in majority of people that posted here on LCD.
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“You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you.” ― C.S. Lewis |
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06-18-2022, 11:38 PM
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#77 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 196
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Re: A different Perspective!
I wanted to say couple of things here just as a thank you both to Nell, Untohim, for letting me share and express some things here. I honestly appreciate the opportunity, and although there were some bumps on the road, I appreciate both of your help and correction. I decided to move on, and trust the Lord in whatever He has for me going forward. I think or hope that whatever the contributions that I made to this site, were / would be of benefit to someone, if not, you are welcome to do with it as you wish.
Again, it was good learning experience for me that I have never done before, so if it was rough on the edges, please forgive me. I’m not sure what the next step holds 100%, but I know that the Lord will lead me somewhere, and somehow, to be used as He sees fit. I just will say that, I’m not leaving because of any offense or something against anyone out here, I just feel it’s time to move on and let the Lord provide next opportunity. Thanks to everyone that had to read my posts, and if it was to much, please forgive me. God bless you all, and lead you as He sees fit. It was nice to meet new people, although only through the messages here. Thanks to everyone that prayed for my family, and I truly appreciated some encouragement and understanding. We may see each other one day, keep the faith and trust in Him alone. God bless. Paul.
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“You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you.” ― C.S. Lewis |
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06-19-2022, 06:05 AM
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#78 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: A different Perspective!
Paul, it has been a blessing knowing you. Your life experience brought an intensity to your words which made fellowship difficult at first, but once I learned some of your history, then I understood who you are, and what you saying. What initially appears as “tension” is really just miscommunication. May the Lord abundantly bless you and your family as you continue your journey with Him. The grace of the Lord, the Love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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