Deeper Dive Into The Origins Of The Lord's Recovery

[Paul Vusik]

Hello again,

For those who are interested in doing more research and understandings on why TLR is not a Biblical Christianity, or Bible based church, please read the following articles that I think is a great information for anyone that want to know the truth, and origins of these heresies.

Based on his own writing in the history of the church, there are couple of names that stand alone, that had extreme influence on both of the man who created this system.(there are other major names in the article). Especially, the majority of the foundational principles were established by Nee, and taken to the extreme by the other man. These articles, with all data, and references have been put together are very long, and substantive. It will take time to go over them, and its not worth to redo someones great work of putting this out for people to read, so I will just add links to it, and whoever is interested can study and know for themselves.

There is a lot of work to unravel the yarn that has been spun by the TLR, but it’s worth every minute of ones time if you have it, and want to warn and post as much as it can be, so that the true christians, don’t get entangled with this.

The first one is deeper dive into the background and teachings of both men:

https://faithsaves.net/watchman-nee/

The second, is regarding the woman that was according to LSM website, was one of the people that the so called Recovery originated or was started with. There is a lot to this total heretic, but this is just a bases of what she was all about.

https://www.wayoflife.org/database/delusions_guyon.html


Thanks.

[Robert]

Article about Guyon is extreme and subjective.
I would discuss a lot about her influence on christianity if there was any.
I see also superficial approach in article about her.
I do not recommend to swallow each word of man. Rather discern like Bereans.
In fact there are verses saying that everything was created by Him, through him and on Him. So God as A Spirit called to existence what was not.
Personaly I had such an experience, when I prayed at work, Holy Sprit filled me and I was looking at world like everywere was love. Like God loves everyone and everything was created by Him. Holy Spirit glorified God in Jesus Christ.
It had nothing to do with trees as objects of Love. Rather way of seeing thing was Love. And in fact trees was created by God. But I will never say that God lives in trees.
And I do not think Madamme Guyon said this.
Another thing is expectation, that Guyon should reject RCC.
We can not say that because of her membership she could not be saved and enjoy Lord.
So my experience was scriptural and every aspect of Holy Spirit mission was fulfilled.
Nowadays we have changed to extreme definition of "mysticism".
Mystic means "anything hidden".
In positive aspect, all changes take place in our inner being. Mostly in private time with the Lord. In hidden, inward place.
There is verse about going to own room and praying.
A lot of verses showing personal relationship with Lord Jesus and working only for Him.

[Paul Vusik]

Another big point that I think that should be noticed regarding all the teachings of TLR, is that just like with all man made systems of this world, it reveals itself in a very powerful way when it comes to two main aspects.

First, understanding who God is, and second understanding who we are. There have been and are, multiple discussions regarding the deity of Christ, denying that He is God, and man becoming god, confirming that theory even on this site by some. It’s pretty frightening that today, just like in the time of Christ walking around the earth, there are more people who would do everything to crucify Him, than those who would believe unto Him.

We live in the time when scientific data, scientific proof, give me a sign, to prove that He is God, and very few will believe the truth regarding Christ being God, condition of man, original sin, and fully completed work of Christ. The same lie that was proposed to Eve, is so enticing, so beautiful, so sweet, looks so go to the eye, that it is irresistible.

I remember when I was doing Sunday school for kids before TLR, there was a little skit that we did, where we put a bunch of different food on the table, and right in the middle we would put an empty pot upside down. We would tell the kids that they can have everything on the table, all cookies and candles, juices and all, but please don’t take anything from under the pot. If you all ate everything, we will add more, but just remember that one request.

It doesn’t take a few minutes, to almost in unison they all want to flip it over and see what’s under, touch it, feel it, hear if anything is moving. With all the things that satisfy them right in front, available in unlimited quantities, but just that pot that’s looks so enticing. That’s when you realize that it’s just our nature, it’s just a matter of time, before we need to look under the pot. And just like it happened to Eve, when she wanted to become like god, those kids realized the emptiness of it.

The question that they would always ask after, would be, “why would you even put it there, especially when it’s empty?”. But the answer is always the same, is that even though you have everything that you need to be satisfied, you need to be fed and live, to experience God for what He already done and finished and gave to everyone, there is always an internal fight to open up that forbidden thing, seek deeper meaning, get higher knowledge, experience the unknown!

The enemy of man, satan, hasn’t changed any of his tactics, nor does he need to or can. Just offer the same scam, and he will have buyers lined up around the corner, and detractors going the other way trampled by the oncoming traffic like it’s a Black Friday special. You sure will feel great about yourself after the purchase, almost like god, very close, very much satisfied for just a few moments, until you unwrap and find the emptiness of it all, and unfortunately there is no return policy available.

On top of that, it’s kind of becomes like a drug, you have to search out more deeper and more advanced, higher dosage, sell everything you have, give up everyone around you, seeking that high, until you are broke and completely ruined. It’s pretty hard to see it happening live, kind of like a horror movie that you know where it goes and how it ends.

Simple God given truths just left sitting on the table, sometimes untouched, but we sure feel empowered for that slightest of moments. As I’m going and working on putting together this puzzle and the trap that is being used to entice man into this scam, I’m coming to the conclusions that there is absolutely nothing there in that pot, just a horribly put together bouquet of dead fake flowers, collected from over the centuries of the same man, that just couldn’t resist looking under the pot, and where never satisfied from the full table in front of them!

[Paul Vusik]

I was going to post this in the morning, but the topic was closed for future posts. I figured that I share this and see if someone else is able to see any connections between the two.

These are couple of things that I found regarding the issues of man becoming gods, in everything but the god head. Read the following description and see if it rings any bells:

“God created humans in both his spiritual and physical image, according to ***** doctrine. Because God was once like humans, humans have an opportunity to become like God. God -- which includes the three parts of God the Father (called Elohim), Jesus the son, and the Holy Ghost -- acts as one, although both Jesus and God have a body that resembles that of humans. ******* believe that Elohim became a deity when he was exalted, ascending from his human form. Likewise, human beings who become exalted have the opportunity to become like God, though this does not mean that they will become God's equal, or that they will have worshipers of their own. Instead they will share commonalities and characteristics with him. Before ****** can become exalted, they have to go through various life stages to earn the privilege. ****** believe that God's original plan for creating human beings and the rest of the universe is to afford them the opportunity to gain exaltation; that is, to become like him. God went through the process of exaltation himself, and as a result the process is open to all humans. ******* believe that after a person dies, if they become exalted they will enjoy various benefits: they will live with God, they will know full joy, they will be allowed to live with their family members for eternity.”

I read this and I thought I was reading a high pick revelation of one of those LSM publications.

***ADMIN NOTE: For the sake of clarity and proper disclosure, the portion above is the belief of the Mormon religion. See:
The Mormon Belief About Becoming a God or Goddess

[Paul Vusik]

Does this sound familiar?

This post is identifying some of the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong, who started his movement in the early 1930s in the USA. Some of the teachings that he called “restored truths”, are very familiar to those “recovered truths” in TLR. I’m wondering if MOTA just took some of them from HWA, and just modified them to his liking?


Restored Truths, according to HWA;

1. True Gospel
“Now in Romans 5 and about verse 5, you will read that by the blood of Christ we are reconciled to God. Now the gospel was suppressed and, as I say, they turned to a gospel ABOUT Christ, but they have not talked of His message. And His message talked about God as being the supreme ruler, and His message had to do with the government of God and God is the lawgiver, and when you sin, the sin is the transgression of the law, and that has cut you off from God, the Father. And what was restored? The world had lost the gospel, they didn't know what the gospel was. I came among the true Church of God of the Sardis Era. They didn't know what the gospel was, they thought it was what they called the third angel's message. They didn't know what the gospel really was. They called it a third angel's message. God revealed it to me and through me, to the Church. That the gospel is the Kingdom of God, that is the gospel Jesus preached, that's the gospel Paul preached to the Gentiles, that's the gospel that Peter and John preached. You'll find when Jesus sent them out and sent out 70, He said preach the Kingdom of God. That is the only gospel, is the gospel OF Jesus Christ. The world preached and has a gospel ABOUT Christ. Now the first thing to be restored to the Church is the true gospel. The world has lost the purpose of God. They have lost all knowledge of the gospel of Christ, which is the Kingdom of God. They have lost all of these things."

Ever heard of the gospel of the kingdom according to MOTA? Just do a little search on their website for it.

2. Purpose of God
"And the second thing to be restored is the PURPOSE of God. And the gospel has to do with that. That God IS reproducing us and that MAN CAN BECOME God! ... And now let me tell you, I'm going to reveal to you, now, things that have been restored in this Church. Let me tell you, THESE ARE ALL THINGS THAT SOME OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN MINISTERS IN THIS CHURCH IN HIGH OFFICE, HAVE GONE OUT AND NOW ARE SAYING, AND SAYING PUBLICLY, THAT WE ARE DEPARTING FROM THE FAITH AND THAT WE ARE GOING FARTHER AND FARTHER INTO ERROR BECAUSE THEY WILL NOT RECEIVE THE TRUTHS THAT GOD HAS BEEN RESTORING INTO THE CHURCH. God's purpose is that He's reproducing Himself and that we, ultimately, become God."

Ever heard of economy of God? I wonder if the purpose was replaced by economy.

3. God's Plan Through the Holy Days
"Now another thing that has been restored is, through the Holy Days, God's plan, His Master Plan for accomplishing that purpose, and the annual Holy Days. And no other Church has had those Holy Days, and understands them."

Ever heard of TLR’s 7 feasts?
One that uses all major holidays to promote the current leadings of the blended? One that takes away all valuable family time for indoctrination/inoculation of its members? Well, they have also been restored, or better “recovered”


4. Government
“But to go on with the things that have been restored...The government of God has been restored to the Church, and the government of God has been placed in the Church. You read that in Ephesians 4 and I Corinthians 12. Christ is the head of the Church and under Christ in the administration of the government are an apostle or apostles, then evangelists, then pastors, then all are called elders, all ministers all the way up clear down to the lowest. So then there are teachers and elders both speaking elders and preaching elders, deacons and deaconesses. And the Church is restored in that form of government. The Sardis Church even didn't have the right form of government.”
Also,
“The government of God is of necessity government from the top down. It cannot be 'government by the consent of the governed' " (Mystery of the Ages. p.49).”

Well, there has been enough said here and elsewhere on this one!


5. Who and What God Is
“Who and what God IS. NO RELIGION ON EARTH KNOWS WHO AND WHAT GOD IS! NO RELIGION ON EARTH! BILLY GRAHAM DOESN'T KNOW IT! JERRY FALWELL DOESN'T KNOW IT! ROMAN CATHOLICS DON'T KNOW IT! GOD IS NOT A TRINITY! GOD IS NOT A SINGLE PERSON! God is a family of persons, and the family began with God and the Word. You read of that in John 1:1-5. And you read of it in Genesis 1 beginning with verse 1. You should learn about God first, and it begins first both in the New Testament and the Old, because many experts feel that, so-called experts, that the book of John should be placed first in the New Testament, although it was not written first. That God is a family and it began with the two, and we can be born into that family.”

Just read the MOTA on Johns gospel.

6. What and Why is Man?
"Now the next thing that's restored to the Church — what and why man is! WHAT IS MAN? WHY DID WE COME TO BE ON EARTH? The Sardis Church didn't know, they didn't know in the Middle Ages. Man was made from the dust of the ground. Man was made with one spirit and he needs another spirit, the Spirit of God which unites him with God, and is the impregnation of God-life in him, and he will be born of God."
"The knowledge that he that is born of the flesh IS flesh, mortal, that's what we are" (cf. John 3:6) which seems to clarify part of the 'what' portion of this truth.”

Just like this guy and many others who follow Darby/Larkin/Scofield, “7 eras of dispensation”, so did MOTA. Sardis church is just a description of so called era, just for clarification.

7. Spirit in Man
"Next the human spirit IN man. No other Church knows about that. That has been revealed to the Church. That is knowledge that has been restored to the Church of God. And this Church has that knowledge."
"This 'human' spirit imparts the power of intellect to the human physical brain" (Mystery of the Ages p. 105). This spirit is not the same as the spirit of God which humans need to understand the things of God, but this spirit is needed to understand the things of humankind (Job 32:8; I Corinthians 2:11).”

This one has been modified to fit more of a view of Née. Although the idea that no other church knows about it, is still very present.


8. First-Fruits
“Another, the next piece of knowledge that has been restored to this Church, that the rest don't know and no other Church knows it, that this Church is the first-fruits, that God is not trying to save the whole world now. He's calling us out now and He'll use us as teachers to help save the others in THEIR turn, and they in turn, from the Millennium, will help save all the rest in the great White Throne of Judgment. And ultimately, God's going to go after the saving of everybody who ever lived. But no Church understands that, that we are the first-fruits, we are the embryo of the kingdom of God. The fact that we have to be called by God, and salvation is not open to just anyone, whosoever will. The whosoever will may come is found in the last chapter of the Bible, and does not pertain to this time at all. And no other Church seems to know that. That knowledge has been restored to this Church."

Overcomer fables? Sounds very familiar.


9. Knowledge of What the Millennium Is
"The knowledge of the Millennium and what it is. Now the Sardis people knew that Christ would rule a thousand years. They knew it would be a Millennium. They had NO IDEA IN THE WORLD about what would happen in the Millennium. They HAD NO IDEA WHAT IS THE PURPOSE of the Millennium. We know when we assemble at the Feast of Tabernacles, that's what we're celebrating, and we know what's going to happen in the Millennium and that salvation will be open, then, to all that are still alive. But it is not open to all now. No other Church knows that. These are things that YOU, brethren, are privileged to know. YOU, God has blessed you with this knowledge, has restored this knowledge to you."

Again, only select brethren are privileged to know the “restored truth “.


10. Truth About the Holy Spirit

"GOD IS NOT A TRINITY!"

“No one can have the Holy Spirit, which alone can open the human mind to understanding this Word of God, without a complete repentance. There was a time, when those two Personages coexisted and NOTHING ELSE did. No third Person is mentioned--no "Ghost"...The Holy Spirit came from heaven, audibly, sounding like a mighty wind, "and it [the Holy Spirit] filled all the house where they were sitting." Next, the Holy Spirit appeared--WAS VISIBLY SEEN--manifested--"And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it [the Holy Spirit in the form of divided tongues] sat upon each of them" (Acts 2:2-3). In verse 18, Peter is quoting from the prophet Joel: "I will pour out...of my Spirit...." The Holy Spirit, like water or a fluid, can be "POURED OUT." Can you pour out a person from one into another--as from God into those assembled there? John 7:37-39: "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy [Spirit] was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" Again in Acts 10:45, "...on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy [Spirit]." (Mystery of the Ages pp. 5,44,56-57).”

Enough said.

11. Begotten Now
"And the fact that we are begotten now. You're not born yet, only begotten."

"Now, as the physical male sperm finds its way to, and unites with the nucleus in the ovum, so God's Spirit enters and combines with the human spirit and MIND! There is, as explained before, a spirit IN man. This human spirit has combined with the brain to form human MIND. God's Spirit unites with, and witnesses with our spirit that we are, now, the children of GOD (Rom. 8:16). And God's Holy Spirit, now combined with our human spirit in our MIND, imparts to our mind power to comprehend SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE (I Cor. 2:11)--which the carnal mind cannot grasp.
"Now we have the presence of ETERNAL LIFE--God-life--through God's Spirit. In like manner the human embryo was an actual human life as yet undeveloped. But we are not yet immortal spirit beings--not yet BORN of GOD--just as the human ovum was not yet born of its human parents--not yet inheritors, and possessors, but physical HEIRS (Rom. 8:17). But IF God's Holy Spirit dwells in us, God will, at the resurrection, "quicken" to immortality our mortal bodies BY his Spirit that "dwelleth in us" (Rom. 8:11; I Cor. 15:49-53)" (Mystery of the Ages pp.260-261)

Kind of same utter nonsense one would read from both man that are associated with LC.

12.Identity Opens Up Understanding of Bible Prophecy
"Our identity. And that opens all the doors...and the understanding of prophecy has been opened to this Church. That has been restored to this Church."

Remember? It’s only though the teachings of LC you can understand the Bible? It’s only “recovered” there?


13.Identity of Babylon and Her Daughters

"Then the great deception, the counterfeit of Revelation 17:5, Babylon, the Great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, her daughter churches and who they are...Those people in the Catholic Church and the Protestant churches have been deceived."

Haven’t we heard this before? All Christianity is Babylon?

14.We Are to Be Separate

"And how in Revelation 18:4 that God has called us out from among them, to be separate."

Separate from Christianity and everyone else!
We are “Tha Church”, at least that’s what RK says.



You can find all the quotes and the above “restored truths” at the link below, with sources.

https://www.cogwriter.com/18.htm

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Does this sound familiar?

This post is identifying some of the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong, who started his movement in the early 1930s in the USA. Some of the teachings that he called “restored truths”, are very familiar to those “recovered truths” in TLR. I’m wondering if MOTA just took some of them from HWA, and just modified them to his liking?

Many Christian movements have sprung up with noble aspirations to return the church to its Apostolic times. The Reformation, the Restoration, and the Recovery movements are just three of them. They all have their excesses and failures. Each of them were prone to elevate men and their teachings/ opinions above the scripture. No place in the New Covenant do we ever recognize the leadership of just one man, apart from Jesus Christ.

HWA and the Recovery may have shared errors, but an in depth study of that movement is beyond the scope of this forum. To answer your question, I am not familiar with Nee or Lee ever mentioning HWA. The Recovery "MOTA" background comes directly from the Exclusive Brethren, perhaps also drawing from Chinese culture and their history of dynasties.

The original Plymouth Brethren in early 19th century England and Ireland primarily drew from two ecclesiastical models. The Exclusives under John Darby had Anglican backgrounds with a hierarchy under the archbishop of Canterbury. The Open Brethren (Chapman, Muller, Craik, etc.) on the other hand were from Baptist backgrounds.

I think both the Bible and healthy Christian history point to the benefits of an ecclesiastical structure of a plurality of leaders/ elders governing local assemblies. Ironically, the Recovery in America began and was blessed when the leadership model followed the "Open" or Baptist model of multiple elders leading their own congregations. Over time, similar to the transitions made by Darby himself, the Recovery took on a Catholic/ Anglican/ Exclusive Brethren hierarchical style of leadership with a central headquarters. For the Exclusives, it was the London Park Ave hall. In the Recovery it was Anaheim Ball Road.

Many in the Recovery saw this transition as a horrible "change of nature," a ministry power grab, and as such a root of evil, from which many other evils sprung up.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many Christian movements have sprung up with noble aspirations to return the church to its Apostolic times. The Reformation, the Restoration, and the Recovery movements are just three of them. They all have their excesses and failures. Each of them were prone to elevate men and their teachings/ opinions above the scripture. No place in the New Covenant do we ever recognize the leadership of just one man, apart from Jesus Christ.

Ohio,
Thanks for your input. I agree with all the above assessment of the movements. I think that I’m very much past the point of determining as to where TLR origins are as far as the Apostolic restoration goes. It’s very obvious that it’s just a splinter group of that movement.

Originally Posted by Ohio

HWA and the Recovery may have shared errors, but an in depth study of that movement is beyond the scope of this forum. To answer your question, I am not familiar with Nee or Lee ever mentioning HWA. The Recovery "MOTA" background comes directly from the Exclusive Brethren, perhaps also drawing from Chinese culture and their history of dynasties.

The next step on what I’m looking into, and working on, is basically to find and locate the sources of all the so called “recovered truths”. I hold to the opinion that anything was actually recovered, I mean zero things that nether of the man wrote was recovered. So, based on that, I’m very certain that all of their writings can be located to other sources where they took them from. Nothing original is or was written, but modified from someone’s prior work and experience.

As you noted, that nether man ever mentioned HWA in any of their writings. I would ask a question, if you taking someone’s work and claiming as your own revelations, would you expose yourself to scrutiny by mentioning the source? Didn’t Nee got cut doing so in multiple of his books? Only to have to address the issue after he was cut?

Originally Posted by Ohio

The original Plymouth Brethren in early 19th century England and Ireland primarily drew from two ecclesiastical models. The Exclusives under John Darby had Anglican backgrounds with a hierarchy under the archbishop of Canterbury. The Open Brethren (Chapman, Muller, Craik, etc.) on the other hand were from Baptist backgrounds.

I come originally from the Baptist background, I was born into it. Tree or four generations of it. I have been around it my whole life, including my great grandpa and grandpa both serving as pastors and deacons for a very long time, on both sides of the family.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many in the Recovery saw this transition as a horrible "change of nature," a ministry power grab, and as such a root of evil, from which many other evils sprung up.

The authoritarian approach to churches, is not anything new. It’s been around since the first church was established, when same kind of men arose to disturb the liberty of believers by adding their own nonsense to the teachings of the apostles. It’s addressed dozens of times from Acts to Revelations. Why these people get away with it? It’s because majority of people refuse to follow and trust God on their own. The greatest example of it has already been manifested in the Bible, when the children of Israel refused to follow God themselves and ask to “give us a king”. If that doesn’t serve as an example for everyone that was saved and taken out of Egypt, so that we don’t make the same mistakes, I’m not sure if anything will. It’s easy to follow man, have a group think and mentality, operate as a forcefull ideologues, but the end of it is just futile outer form of self righteousness and deception.
The most righteous and most holy separatist, who knew everything and all the laws and commandments, all prophesy, all signs and times, missed a big one that happened almost 2000 years ago, and I’m very certain that history repeats itself, and that same thing will happen the second time around.

[Paul Vusik]

In my continuing research and study of these groups such as LC, JWs, Mormons, New Age, NARs, you find so many similarities and so many almost exact ways they operate.

I listened to this interview from a former JWs member, who was born into it. I notice how much these experiences that people have to go through in order to be free from the total deception that exist there. I’m going to post the link below, and I do think that it might be helpful to someone who is struggling with, going through tough time in between the LC and what they do to people’s clear and sound mind. It maybe will offer an alternative view to pursue independent study and research for someone to get the truth uncovered, while still being a part of the system. As difficult as that process is, it’s one of the only ways to get yourself from the control and the grip of that influence, that disables people. Putting yourself into the Word, and study, God can do some marvelous things.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t-gemXVfUcQ