Pray-Reading

[Paul Vusik]

I recently had a discussion with someone about this concept practiced by TLR of “pray-reading”. I find it amusing and funny that they can never point out where can it be found as a practice in “the New Testament church” as they claim to be. You always led astray to some kind of obnoxious theory of why it is so.

I kind of equate this baseless and unbiblical practice to going out to the store, and buying a bicycle that needs to be put together. Ones you bring it home, you open up a box and take out the instructions on how to assemble it. You sit down on the couch and just start to chant them out loud, without ever picking up the tools and parts, and just hoping that the bike will put itself together, by a miracle!

When it doesn’t go your way, and bike is still in the box and the parts are everywhere, because you refused to follow the “instructions”, you get on the phone and call a manufacturer and file a complaint that you not only read the instructions, but you even repeatedly chanted them back and forth out loud, and nothing happened, but you failed to mention that you never got off that couch, picked up the tools that required in the instructions, and even for a mere moment tried to follow them.

This person said they have prayed for 10 years, and not an answer. I hate to say it this way, but this nonsensical approach to the Word of God, will never produce any results or any answers! It might give you some emotional euphoria for a min, with your ability to read and chant, but besides that it will only lead to frustration.
I remember reading the Bible one time with them, it was James 1, and in the verse 5 it says “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” I prayed and said “Lord give me wisdom”, but they just sat there and kept say over and over “O lord, you be my wisdom”. I asked them and said, “that’s not what it says here to do at all, does it?” But I was told that “you are way to proud to think God will give you wisdom”. Well, no wonder that 10 years goes by, and not an answer. That bike is still in the box, and after hours of frustration it was tossed to the garage, since the instructions were “faulty”. And after sitting there collecting dust for 10 years and spending hundreds of dollars on the purchase was accidentally found, and sold on the neighborhood garage sale for mere $5, with a big fat label on the box “Buyer Beware, WRONG instructions”!

God doesn’t need you to sit there and chant the Bible back to Him, as if He needs a reminder of what He said! He doesn’t need you to point out to Him that He is wisdom! He doesn’t need you to blame Him for your failure to follow them! What He want you to do, is to stop chanting, get off the couch, place the tools and parts as described in the directions, and then step by step put that bike together. And maybe, just maybe, when you get to the last page, you will actually be able to get on it, and take it out to some nice off-road trail, and enjoy some great “answers”, for following the instructions, as it is written!

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

God doesn’t need you to sit there and chant the Bible back to Him, as if He needs a reminder of what He said! He doesn’t need you to point out to Him that He is wisdom! He doesn’t need you to blame Him for your failure to follow them! What He want you to do, is to stop chanting, get off the couch, place the tools and parts as described in the directions, and then step by step put that bike together. And maybe, just maybe, when you get to the last page, you will actually be able to get on it, and take it out to some nice off-road trail, and enjoy some great “answers”, for following the instructions, as it is written!

Talking about these various LC practices is sort of a minefield because the purpose can hardly be faulted even if the methods may be. It is too much like so much of evangelical Christianity that argues that worship is simply about the heart. If the heart is right, then the manner of worship can't be faulted.

Yet the heart of man is stated as being incurably (my paraphrase) wicked. And if that is so, then what comes from any man's heart must be questioned.

Pray-reading, like calling on the Lord, seems to me to be near nonsense undertaken to do the Christian equivalent of Eastern mantras . . . to chant away the thoughts of the mind and be open to whatever. Like the popular "let go and let God" mantra. While at some level that is true, I do not believe that, in the context of wherever it is that such a phrase might have been dug up (like the golden calf that just came up out of the fire) it is really saying to just let go and let it happen.

Several years ago I was briefly involved in the early stages of setting up a Christian 12-step program for all sorts of issues, addictions, etc. When you read the 12 steps, very early it is emphasized that you must come to realize that you cannot do it. Yet in almost the very next sentence, you must. Many describe it as realizing that the wall in front of you is made of boulders so large that you can't even budge one of them. You realize your incapacity. But
ultimately, for any of them to move, you must put out your hands to move them. Not that you can do it alone, but that if you do nothing, no one else — no matter who you think your "higher power" is — is going to help you.

And turning verses into a word stew where nary a single word is recognizable nor connected to any other in a rational way will not magically infuse you with knowledge of what the actual phrases, sentences, and paragraphs say and mean.

And the LC practice of calling on the Lord seems harder to stand against because it just seems so good. But when you can ask a conference full of people to stand and call on the Lord 3 times before you go back to the business of spreading lies about another one from your number as you pass judgment to ostracise him from your little sect, the need to question the practice becomes all the more evident. Reminds me of the idea of going to my Dad's house, opening the door, and shouting "Hey Dad" a couple of times and then closing the door and going back to my business before he can even look up and see who it was who briefly darkened his door. Sort of a "drive-by calling." (A drive-by fruiting? — see who gets that one.)

If calling on the Lord along with years of pray-reading has convinced you that you cannot understand the Bible without first taking in Witness Lee's analysis of it, then it really hasn't done you much good. And reading and understanding the Bible then seeing if the "ministry" matches what you read and understood was one of Titus Chu's sins for which he was tossed out after a good round of calling on the Lord.

Go figure.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by OBW

Talking about these various LC practices is sort of a minefield because the purpose can hardly be faulted even if the methods may be. It is too much like so much of evangelical Christianity that argues that worship is simply about the heart. If the heart is right, then the manner of worship can't be faulted.

Yet the heart of man is stated as being incurably (my paraphrase) wicked. And if that is so, then what comes from any man's heart must be questioned.

Pray-reading, like calling on the Lord, seems to me to be near nonsense undertaken to do the Christian equivalent of Eastern mantras . . . to chant away the thoughts of the mind and be open to whatever. Like the popular "let go and let God" mantra. While at some level that is true, I do not believe that, in the context of wherever it is that such a phrase might have been dug up (like the golden calf that just came up out of the fire) it is really saying to just let go and let it happen.

Several years ago I was briefly involved in the early stages of setting up a Christian 12-step program for all sorts of issues, addictions, etc. When you read the 12 steps, very early it is emphasized that you must come to realize that you cannot do it. Yet in almost the very next sentence, you must. Many describe it as realizing that the wall in front of you is made of boulders so large that you can't even budge one of them. You realize your incapacity. But
ultimately, for any of them to move, you must put out your hands to move them. Not that you can do it alone, but that if you do nothing, no one else — no matter who you think your "higher power" is — is going to help you.

And turning verses into a word stew where nary a single word is recognizable nor connected to any other in a rational way will not magically infuse you with knowledge of what the actual phrases, sentences, and paragraphs say and mean.

And the LC practice of calling on the Lord seems harder to stand against because it just seems so good. But when you can ask a conference full of people to stand and call on the Lord 3 times before you go back to the business of spreading lies about another one from your number as you pass judgment to ostracise him from your little sect, the need to question the practice becomes all the more evident. Reminds me of the idea of going to my Dad's house, opening the door, and shouting "Hey Dad" a couple of times and then closing the door and going back to my business before he can even look up and see who it was who briefly darkened his door. Sort of a "drive-by calling." (A drive-by fruiting? — see who gets that one.)

If calling on the Lord along with years of pray-reading has convinced you that you cannot understand the Bible without first taking in Witness Lee's analysis of it, then it really hasn't done you much good. And reading and understanding the Bible then seeing if the "ministry" matches what you read and understood was one of Titus Chu's sins for which he was tossed out after a good round of calling on the Lord.

Go figure.

I don’t think that you can equate pray reading to some “Eastern mantras”, or some odd form of worship. Threre is a much deeper meaning and agendas behind that practice or process, that they try to achieve. So let compare apples to apples, and oranges to oranges. Saying “Christ has risen, yes indeed” doesn’t equal to mindless repetition and outright hypnosis of sorts, to achieve some kind of state of tranquillity, or presence of some being “as when it comes on calling on the lord a million times in the row”.

[gr8ful]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

I don’t think that you can equate pray reading to some “Eastern mantras”, or some odd form of worship. Threre is a much deeper meaning and agendas behind that practice or process, that they try to achieve. So let compare apples to apples, and oranges to oranges. Saying “Christ has risen, yes indeed” doesn’t equal to mindless repetition and outright hypnosis of sorts, to achieve some kind of state of tranquillity, or presence of some being “as when it comes on calling on the lord a million times in the row”.

It's important to be fair and precise when offering critique of anyone's practices or teachings, and as such I appreciate the balance in this reply.

While the forms of Calling and Pray-reading in the LC are uniquely stylized, they aren't completely unique within Christian practices. The Orthodox and Catholics have "The Jesus Prayer," for example, which is to repeat the name "Jesus" over and over throughout the day.

One benefit of the pray-reading every morning in my early years was gaining a deep familiarity with the Pauline Epistles, specifically, to the point that I nearly memorized them. The practice of memorizing a large script for a play is very similar to "pray-reading." Surely if someone can safely memorize "Death of a Salesman" or "Cats" they can use the same type practice with the Bible, safely.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's easy to criticize ancillary things like Calling and Pray-reading, but these are NOT the reason that Witness Lee can get away with claiming "My speaking of these main, new revelations in the past twenty-five years has been the oracle of God," and that claim making it through the editorial process into print.

There's other, bigger, problems such as hero worship, undue influence... things that match the BITE model. There are problems of "hiding history" (huge problems). Problems with delusions that the endlessly repeated outline points are "God's up-to-date speaking" that come with a heavy burden (which usually is to vindictively oppose someone for something seen as a threat to "The Ministry" and "God's Move" -- but I digress).

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by gr8ful

It's important to be fair and precise when offering critique of anyone's practices or teachings, and as such I appreciate the balance in this reply.

While the forms of Calling and Pray-reading in the LC are uniquely stylized, they aren't completely unique within Christian practices. The Orthodox and Catholics have "The Jesus Prayer," for example, which is to repeat the name "Jesus" over and over throughout the day.

One benefit of the pray-reading every morning in my early years was gaining a deep familiarity with the Pauline Epistles, specifically, to the point that I nearly memorized them. The practice of memorizing a large script for a play is very similar to "pray-reading." Surely if someone can safely memorize "Death of a Salesman" or "Cats" they can use the same type practice with the Bible, safely.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's easy to criticize ancillary things like Calling and Pray-reading, but these are NOT the reason that Witness Lee can get away with claiming "My speaking of these main, new revelations in the past twenty-five years has been the oracle of God," and that claim making it through the editorial process into print.

There's other, bigger, problems such as hero worship, undue influence... things that match the BITE model. There are problems of "hiding history" (huge problems). Problems with delusions that the endlessly repeated outline points are "God's up-to-date speaking" that come with a heavy burden (which usually is to vindictively oppose someone for something seen as a threat to "The Ministry" and "God's Move" -- but I digress).

My biggest issue that I have with both practices is this: both are derived from Eastern Religions, such as Buddhism, Hinduism, and other practices that associated with the world of occult. There isn’t any Biblical instructions or mentions of these practices anywhere. Bringing in these ideas into Biblical Christianity, and equating them to “no big deals”, is a very dangerous game to play. I can’t and won’t get into these issues here on this thread, but I believe that majority of mental/emotional/cognitive issues that have also been noticed by a lot of people, are a direct results of people being exposed to the elements and practices that are strictly forbidden by the Word of God. There is plenty that has been stated in other threads regarding some of thes issues.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

There isn’t any Biblical instructions or mentions of these practices anywhere.

And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Act 2:21

When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart’s delight, for I bear your name, LORD God Almighty

Jeremiah 15:16

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Act 2:21



Jeremiah 15:16

Calling on the Lord to be saved, is as an event that happens in some people’s life at one point or another. On the other hand, sitting there and mindlessly chanting the name, as a vehicle in order to “get into” or “receive” a spirit, is a totally different thing, and not found anywhere in the Bible. Neither is countless repetions of the Word of God, as if it will have some special effect. I know that some people that left LC still hold these practices near and dear to them, so my opinion of it is just that, MY Opinion. I have done quite a bit of research into these things, and do have a very different perspective than the one I held before, so it is everyone’s personal choice and responsibility as to figure these things out for themselves. I don’t want to completely destroy this thread in regards to it’s topic, so I think that that if anyone want to talk about “calling on the Lord”, I think there is a thread for that somewhere here. My apologies that I mentioned both aspects in this thread.

Thanks

Matt 6:7
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

[gr8ful]

Paul, I am confused. When I mentioned my appreciation for careful critique, I was referring to this quote from your post:

I don’t think that you can equate pray reading to some “Eastern mantras”, or some odd form of worship. Threre is a much deeper meaning and agendas behind that practice or process, that they try to achieve. So let compare apples to apples, and oranges to oranges. Saying “Christ has risen, yes indeed” doesn’t equal to mindless repetition and outright hypnosis of sorts, to achieve some kind of state of tranquillity, or presence of some being “as when it comes on calling on the lord a million times in the row”.

But then calling it derived from Eastern religions contradicts this. Did you not write the above excerpt? I'm confused.

I'll just say this, "the Jesus Prayer" and repetitiously chanting texts (like pray-reading) both pre-date the introduction of "Eastern Religious practices" in the West. Calling them "Eastern" is just not true.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by gr8ful

Paul, I am confused. When I mentioned my appreciation for careful critique, I was referring to this quote from your post:



But then calling it derived from Eastern religions contradicts this. Did you not write the above excerpt? I'm confused.

I'll just say this, "the Jesus Prayer" and repetitiously chanting texts (like pray-reading) both pre-date the introduction of "Eastern Religious practices" in the West. Calling them "Eastern" is just not true.

Gr8ful,

The post that you referred to, is mine and I did write that. So the misunderstanding is not on your part but mine. I was responding to the previous post, which mentions “Eastern mantras”, and it was I that misread it as Easter mantras. So, it’s is my fault.

So to clear it up hopefully, I’ll just separate the two topics:
Regarding pray reading:
Besides Eastern Orthodox Church, which does do some repetition of Lord’s Prayer, and other Psams and things, they don’t do it as the LC. Also the Charismatic Movement has/had some sprinklings of it here and there. So I know you said that it pre dates this in the West, so maybe if you have a post or can point to whom else that you know that practice this type of Bible reading. I don’t really believe that this practice is anything more that another way they use it to take people away from actually understanding and focusing on what the Word of God says, rather to have an experience of some sorts, and go on to reading their interpretations of what they think it should mean for them.

And on Calling on the lord practice, as iit is done in LC, it comes directly from Eastern meditation teachings, such as Hinduism, Buddhism and some traces to the world of occult, and not from anywhere else. Just my opinion and conclusion.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

I don’t think that you can equate pray reading to some “Eastern mantras”, or some odd form of worship. Threre is a much deeper meaning and agendas behind that practice or process, that they try to achieve. So let compare apples to apples, and oranges to oranges. Saying “Christ has risen, yes indeed” doesn’t equal to mindless repetition and outright hypnosis of sorts, to achieve some kind of state of tranquillity, or presence of some being “as when it comes on calling on the lord a million times in the row”.

I didn't mean to imply that either was simply an alternate form of Eastern mantra, but at the same time, even your descriptions of calling on the Lord imply that some of its variations appear more about a kind of clearing of the mind or the creation of an emotional state that is not consistent with the kind of clear-minded thinking that both Christ and Paul talked about.

My comments about pray-reading were more about the kind of practice of dicing a verse into single words, parts of phrases, etc., and interspersing them with other words and phrases (lots of "Oh Lord," "Amen," as well as other things) that seem unassailable because it seems impossible to use them incorrectly (but alas, I believe that we often did). The sum total is to derail the meaning of a verse or larger passage because it is almost never spoken as a unit, but as pieces divorced of context and even completeness of sentence (not to mention the loss of grammar). I do not believe that Christ intended man to learn of Him by repeating disjointed words in a manner that causes them to be almost meaningless. Much like when Paul took the Corinthians to task for using so much tongues in their meetings. He said he would rather speak 5 intelligible words to them than 10,000 in a tongue.

Having come from a background of Pentecostalism, I can attest that tongues are not really worth a lot unless they are made to be useful to a native hearer. Oddly, I believe that the way that pray-reading was so often practiced in the LC was not much different that trying to get something of lasting value out of hearing someone always talking to you in German. I am not saying anything against German. And I am not saying that it would be useful to a German because to them it would be the same as having someone speaking to them in Swedish. And so on.

I still will say that some aspects of "calling on the Lord" as the LC practices — especially in a corporate way — are more of an exercise in emotional release and mind centering than in making any kind of real call to the Creator and Savior.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by OBW

My comments about pray-reading were more about the kind of practice of dicing a verse into single words, parts of phrases, etc., and interspersing them with other words and phrases (lots of "Oh Lord," "Amen," as well as other things) that seem unassailable because it seems impossible to use them incorrectly (but alas, I believe that we often did). The sum total is to derail the meaning of a verse or larger passage because it is almost never spoken as a unit, but as pieces divorced of context and even completeness of sentence (not to mention the loss of grammar). I do not believe that Christ intended man to learn of Him by repeating disjointed words in a manner that causes them to be almost meaningless.

I agree with your conclusions, but I also think the issue of “calling” and “pray-reading” are so interconnected that they cannot exist separately. I have been to many of “Bible studies”, where it’s almost impossible to get anything out of the written word, because of insertion of constant repetitions and mantras. I always refused to read the nonsensical headings inserted there by the locals as I was told it’s somehow now should be read as a part of the text, since it “explains what the text is about to say”.

Originally Posted by OBW

Having come from a background of Pentecostalism, I can attest that tongues are not really worth a lot unless they are made to be useful to a native hearer. Oddly, I believe that the way that pray-reading was so often practiced in the LC was not much different that trying to get something of lasting value out of hearing someone always talking to you in German. I am not saying anything against German. And I am not saying that it would be useful to a German because to them it would be the same as having someone speaking to them in Swedish. And so on.

I still will say that some aspects of "calling on the Lord" as the LC practices — especially in a corporate way — are more of an exercise in emotional release and mind centering than in making any kind of real call to the Creator and Savior.

I was recently invited to attend a wedding, in which the bride comes from the Pentecostal Church. During the prayer, it was a total chaos. I actually had to step out for a bit, because it was like PTSD from my experience at the LC. Every time I hear it, makes me sick.

I spent a lot of time in research of this issue specifically. It never made sense. When I first came to the meeting, I was basically told I knew nothing about “correct prayer”, even though I was a Christian and been around it my whole life. Things didn’t add up, could never be found in the Word, tested against the Bible. It’s all make sense now, and I can totally see and understand why it’s an addicting exercise that has no true spiritual purpose or value, other that to make one feel as if they are oh so very spiritual for some fleeing moments, only to crave it again and again to camouflage the true reality that cannot be hidden. It brings damage and deception to all levels of the human being. Spiritual/emotional/phsycological and even physical.
All these practices are just retapped variations of the past, going back to like 3 century. (at least that’s as far as I can find them). They have destroyed millions of people, just as they are doing it now. Very hard to watch people close to you, be totally duped, and suffering. God have mercy.