Prophecy - The End Times

[Matt Anderson]

The rapture - part 1

Here are some options for the timing and audience of the rapture that I have heard, read or envisioned over the years. In my mind, each of these views has a different ranking or weighting of likelihood. For example, most pre-tribulational rapture proponents will emphasize that it is not in the nature of God to put the church through the events of the Great Tribulation. They also point at key portions of the Word as support.

Having gone through this exercise for each variation of interpretation from multiple perspectives, I can pretty confidently say that there is no way to come to a definitive conclusion and remain intellectually honest. I know that some people think they can, but under the scrutiny of testing I don't think any view really holds up. Over the years, I attempted to take up each view in my mind (and through notes) to see if there was any view that I could support without also being able to poke holes in it. I haven't found any view that can legitimately survive attempts to poke holes in them.

As background, I think it is worth mentioning that most people on this forum will fit into the "dispensational pre-millenial" view, but there are also "historical premillenialists", "amillenialists" and "post-millenialists". I'm not trying to chase all these views, just sharing that there are entirely different approaches to the key End Times events that can alter how you handle the Word of God. I'm sticking with more of a "dispensational pre-millenial" view which basically just says that Jesus Christ will "literally" return for the second time before we enter the time of the Millenial Kingdom.

For the rapture, here are some of the views I have entertained in review of this topic over a number of years. The complexity of all of these views against the whole of scripture has made my head spin. I haven't spent unending hours of analysis trying to figure it out. I've had help and with some insights from God, I have verified what I have seen against scripture. Even after doing this, I still hold my current understanding "loosely" because of the speculative nature of this topic.

TIMING:
For a one-time, singular fulfillment of the rapture:

• Pre-trib - the whole "church" before the start of the Great Tribulation (I have defined this as 3.5 years) or 7-year period since others define the Great Tribulation as 7 years.
• Mid-trib - the whole "church" near or at the middle of the Great Tribulation (this fits better with a 7-year view of Great Tribulation)
• Pre-wrath - the whole "church" before God's wrath is poured out
• Out of the Midst of Wrath - the whole "church" out of the midst of God's wrath being poured out
• Post-wrath - the whole "church" after God's wrath is poured out

Some of these timings may seem implausible. Especially, "out of the midst of wrath" and "post-wrath". When we start to review all the text, you may be surprised that at least one of these two is not implausible.

For a multiple occurrence fulfillment of the rapture:

• Multiple fulfillments of rapture for portions of the "saints" (pre-, mid-, etc). I am not equating "saints" with the whole church.
• Progressive rapture based on individual maturity
• Progressive rapture based on individual maturity with multiple fulfillments of rapture mixed in as well

These are the main ones I know, does anyone have any more?

AUDIENCE (OR TARGET) OF RAPTURE:
You don't have to pick just one item from this list. It could be a combination of items.

• Some (mature, overcomers, etc) or All of the Church
• Tribulation Saints (if they exist as a distinct grouping under a different dispensation)
• Some or All of Old Testament Saints - I tossed this one in just to move "outside the box" in thinking about this subject. Will all the Old Testament ones that God has credited with faith wait for the end of the Millenial Kingdom to be raised from the dead?

In general, figuring out the audience of the rapture gets hard right away. Even if we narrow our thoughts to just the Church, We do not know when membership in the Church stops. We assume things about this topic. Assuming that the total membership in the Church starts with Jesus' death and resurrection and ends at another point in time, we can look at the POSSIBLE timing and end point of membership in the Church. Said another way, we do not know when the "dispensation of grace through Jesus Christ" ends and another dispensation begins. Here are some options.

1. Assuming a pre-tribulational rapture of all members of the Church then this could be the endpoint
2. If the rapture happens later - the "eternal gospel" (Rev 14:6) could be the endpoint
3. If the rapture happens later - Armageddon/Christ's Second Coming could be the endpoint

There may be some other endpoint options, but these three seem to be most plausible.

Sorry to be so analytical with all these categorizations and interpretive options, but this topic is a mine field that kind of requires doing this to try to bring some foundations before proceeding. Next, I am going to start introducing key text from the Bible related to the rapture. If I miss some references that anyone thinks are important, please add them in.

Matt

[countmeworthy]

Here is my perspective on the rapture/ 2nd coming of Christ. Part 1

All true believers will be raptured regardless of their maturity. The key phrase is TRUE BELIEVERS. Babies, children, mentally handicapped people will also be raptured. I also believe most if not all animals will also be rescued. I base this belief about animals on God’s love for them. There were a lot more animals in the ark than people.

The Lord’s return is in 2 major stages. I do believe there will be other raptures after the big one.

My case for the rapture are patterns.

Enoch walked with God and was not for God took him. Everyone else was “left behind”. There is no evidence of people witnessing the Lord taking him. But God’s Word states it twice. 1) Genesis. 2) Hebrews

Then there is Elijah. He knew he was going to be raptured as did Elisha and the prophets following them. There were many witnesses to Elijah’s rapture.
2 KINGS chapter 2. A chariot with horses picked up Elijah proving there are animals in heaven.

At this time I am going to submit additional theories to the big rapture. It is going to be mind blowing and I am going to ask you to hold your fire before you shoot. Hopefully however, what I am going to propose will make some sense.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Hopefully however, what I am going to propose will make some sense.

Boy oh boy…how to begin.

Ok I will start with 1 Corinthians 15:52-53. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last Trump, the dead in Christ will be raised incorruptible, The corruptible will put on incorruptiion, the mortal->immortality. We will all be changed

Next
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The Lord will descend with a shout, with the Voice of the Archangel and the Trump of God. The dead will rise first, the we who are alive AND REMAIN will be caught up with them in the clouds and meet the Lord in the Air.

Next:
Matthew 27:52-53
And the graves were opened. Then many bodies of the saints that slept arose. They came out of the graves after His resurrection and went into the city and appeared to many.

The scriptures don’t say what became of the risen saints but I personally believe when Jesus ascended, they did too. Otherwise how could these people who saw them and most likely spoke with them, truly believe in the resurrection of Jesus had they died again? Not everyone saw Jesus ascend after all.

So here is my proposal:

I think it is very possible that when the dead in Christ rise first and we who are alive AND REMAIN, will witness to many people just as the resurrected saints did after Jesus resurrected. We will be here a short time, perhaps 10 days, maybe a bit longer IN OUR PERFECT GLORIFIED BODIES. For we will have been changed in the twinkling of an eye. No more corruptible body, no more mortal body. Truly “no weapon formed against us will prosper”. Then just as Elijah passed “the baton” to Elisha, we will pass the baton to (drumroll) the 144,000 servants of God from the 12 tribes of Israel.

Could it be Elijah is a picture of the true believers being caught up and Elisha receiving the double portion of Elijah’s spirit are the 144,000 servants of God from the 12 tribes of Israel?

If we consider what the angel said in Revelation 7 to the 4 other angels, I think it could very well be that the reason the command for them not to hurt the earth, the sea, the trees until the 144K are sealed with the Seal of God on their foreheads, is they had to wait for us to “pass the baton” to them, and THEN we WHO REMAINED for a short while are raptured.

I know this line of thinking is far fetched but also consider the book of Acts especially before Paul came into the scene…the Boldness, the miracles, even Phillip being caught up by the Spirit was found in Azotus after baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch who was reading from Isaiah regarding Jesus. As soon as they came out of the water the Ethiopian never saw Phillip again. And Phillip was immediately found in the city of Azotus (Acts chapter 8:26-40)

I leave you with John 14:12
Verily, verily I say unto you. He who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do. And greater works than these he will do because I go to My Father.

This is just FOOD FOR THOUGHT! I am following a Bible study on Revelation. I have had a lot of questions on the book..still do but one thing I am truly convinced now, is Revelation is not written in chronological order, that is from left to right.

When we consider that we don’t learn about Lucifer’s fall from heaven until Isaiah 14 and not Genesis 1, it’s not too far fetched for me to think outside the box, that Revelation is not written in chronological and how the rapture may occur.

Peace in Christ Jesus everyone!
Carol

[Nell]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

...This is just FOOD FOR THOUGHT! I am following a Bible study on Revelation. I have had a lot of questions on the book..still do but one thing I am truly convinced now, is Revelation is not written in chronological order, that is from left to right.
Carol

Well, Carol, in this point--at least for Rev. 16, Matt agrees with you! See Matt's Post #164 . I've also read other authors who note the same thing in an outline of Revelation with "parenthetical" chapters.

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

...The challenge with the seven bowls in Revelation 16 is that this chapter is not set in sequential order in the Book of Revelation.

I believe Revelation is structured as follows:
Chapter 1-3 - Introduction & Seven Churches
Chapter 4-11 - Main sequential narrative starting before the Great Tribulation (3.5 years) all the way to the end of the Great Tribulation, God's Wrath. I believe the change over to the Millenial Kingdom is minimally referenced at the end of Chapter 11.
Chapter 12-19 - Expanded Descriptions (or Appendices) which elaborate on the main characters and events of the sequential narrative from Chapter 4-11
Chapter 20-22 - Continuance of Main sequential narrative including Satan's imprisonmnent, the Millenial Kingdom through to the New Heaven/Earth, New Jerusalem, etc.

Nell

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Next:
Matthew 27:52-53
And the graves were opened. Then many bodies of the saints that slept arose. They came out of the graves after His resurrection and went into the city and appeared to many.

The scriptures don’t say what became of the risen saints but I personally believe when Jesus ascended, they did too. Otherwise how could these people who saw them and most likely spoke with them, truly believe in the resurrection of Jesus had they died again? Not everyone saw Jesus ascend after all.

I think these verses are often overlooked when thinking about rapture. I think they do set some context, but I don't think they specifically address rapture. I have felt that they are part of the fulfillment of the "feasts of the Lord". The connection between Christ's 1st and 2nd coming and the "feasts of the Lord" was something I read from someone years ago. I think there is a strong connection. The OT presents 7 feasts. Four feasts in the spring time. Three feasts in the fall.

Based on the New Testament authors, the 4 spring feasts appear to be exactly fulfilled by the events of Jesus' death, resurrection and giving of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. I think the three fall feasts (trumpets, day of atonement, tabernacles/booths) foreshadow things about Jesus' second coming. In the spring, the 3rd feast is the "feast of firstfruits". I think that Jesus was the firstfruit (being resurrected from the dead first) and I think these ones seen in Jerusalem were also firstfruits. (I think it is important to note that the dead seen in Jerusalem were from the Old Testament age and yet they were resurrected in some fashion either temporarily or for transport to a new location).

I also agree with you that it is seems they probably ascended with Jesus to heaven. I am guessing that the good part of "paradise" moved from the heart of the earth to somewhere in heaven until the time of Jesus' second coming. This is my conjecture, but it is what I have come to lean towards in my thinking.

For several of your other verse references, I will be bringing them in my next post(s) and sharing my thoughts on them.

Matt

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

I also agree with you that it is seems they probably ascended with Jesus to heaven. I am guessing that the good part of "paradise" moved from the heart of the earth to somewhere in heaven until the time of Jesus' second coming. This is my conjecture, but it is what I have come to lean towards in my thinking.

I also agree.

Years ago when Dr. Phil Comfort ministered in Columbus, I asked him about this. Remember that PC was basically humiliated and expelled by TC for being a "pure wordist," and "too independent, too theoretical, void of reality," rather than the typical ministry lackey. None of us in the church thought so, but who were we to oppose the "apostle" in Cleveland.

Phil's comment was, "the weight of Christian authorship supports this view." Of course, that view was contradictory to WL's teaching, hence suspect. Comfort used Ephesians 4.8 (quoting Psalms 68) as support.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

At this time I am going to submit additional theories to the big rapture. It is going to be mind blowing and I am going to ask you to hold your fire before you shoot. Hopefully however, what I am going to propose will make some sense.

Too funny!

Go for it! We're all just presenting our views. No firing squads here!

[Matt Anderson]

The rapture - part 2

Here are all the passages I have identified that address specific and important aspects of the rapture. I think there may be a few foreshadowings in the Old Testament as well, but first the New Testament passages.

Rather than trying to explain all the different scenarios I mentioned in my part 1 post and how they fit or don't fit all the scripture, I want to start by sharing a "Worst Case Scenario". This "Worst Case Scenario" doesn't completely rule out all other options, but I think it is a good baseline. Once I have it laid out, then we can start looking at the better scenarios and see if they hold up as well as this "Worst Case Scenario"

I am going to say "church age believers" whenever I am referring specifically to members of the Church. If I say "saints", then I am including the possibility of believers who may be what others call "tribulation saints" as well as "church age believers". If you believe that the church is totally raptured before the start of the Great Tribulation then you don't agree that "saints" = "church age believers" + "tribulation saints". You believe "church age believers" are gone and there are only "tribulation saints". I am clear that I can poke a big hole of doubt in this interpretation, but this does not mean that I am totally convinced there is no possibility of a pre-tribulational rapture of all the "church age believers". Based on what I am about to share, the likelihood of a pre-tribulational rapture has moved down to one of the LEAST LIKELY possibilities, but this doesn't mean it can't happen. (Note: I surely prefer a pre-tribulational rapture of the whole church, but intellectually honest study of the Word has not allowed me to take up that position as reliable.)

Key Passages (in biblical order)

• Matthew 24:29-31 (Jesus coming in the clouds, trumpet call, gathering "the elect")
• Matthew 24:36-44 (be alert/ready, like a thief allusion)
• Luke 12:35-48 (be alert/ready)
• 1 Corinthians 15:52-53 (dead raised to incorruptibility, at the last trumpet)
• 1 Thessalonians 1:10 (relationship to wrath)
• 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (Jesus in the clouds, shout & trumpet of God, caught up - gk. harpizo)
• 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 (day of the Lord as thief in the night)
• 2 Peter 3:10-14 (Jesus' coming is like a thief)
• Revelation 3:3 (like a thief reference)
• Revelation 3:10 (one church kept out of "hour of trial")
• Revelation 16:15-16

Here are some comments based on these verses that relate to the subject of Rapture...

To some extent, Matthew 24 links Jesus' second coming with "like a thief". Verse 30 shows Jesus appearing in the sky where everyone sees it. If you keep reading it is a continuous theme related to His second coming and verses 42-44 use the picture of a thief coming.

To a significant extent, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:2 link Jesus' second coming, the rapture and "like a thief" to be at or near the same time (not years apart). If you read starting in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 all the way to at least 5:2 you can see the linkage between "coming like a thief" and the rapture.

I'm not trying to say that these linkages (between 2nd coming, "like a thief", and the rapture) are completely definitive from an analytical point of view. However, when you see correlating references to trumpets and "like a thief" with both rapture and Jesus' second coming and then you read Revelation 16:15 the main issue left is how to resolve what the Word says about being "delivered from the coming wrath" (1 Th 1:10). Additionally, there isn't anything that helps you separate them to two different events at two different time frames.

Here are some key points I think are worth considering.

Key Points about the relationship of the Rapture to Great Tribulation & God's Wrath

• church age believers are not appointed or "destined" for wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), while non-believers are (multiple verses)
• saints are delivered from (gk. apo/s575 or gk. ek/s1537), depending on the source manuscript) the coming wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10) - these two tiny greek prepositions (apo and ek) play an important role in some of what I will share.
• the "Great Tribulation" seems to be referred to synonymously as the "hour of trial" that comes to the whole earth
• there no verses that equate "Great Tribulation" with "God's wrath".
• there are verses that appear to separate "Great Tribulation" from "God's wrath" (close reading and collation of Joel 2:10-11 & Matthew 24:30-31) show "God's wrath" coming just after "Great Tribulation"
• there are no verses that state that the church age believers will not experience the "Great Tribulation". People assume this based on the pre-tribulational rapture teaching.
• In my opinion, there is no valid argument which asserts that God's nature or the salvation of Jesus Christ precludes church age believer's from enduring tremendous suffering (up to and including martyrdom). One of God's main goals from this age is to bring each believer to full maturity in Christ and this can include tremendous suffering. The Bible and history bear this out.

Key Points about the relationship of the Rapture to "Coming Like a Thief"

• If you start reading in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 and continue through to 1 Thessalonians 5:2, I believe "Coming Like a Thief" is directly connected to the Rapture event.
• Revelation 16:15 places the time of "coming like a thief" between the 6th and 7th bowls of wrath. As mentioned in a previous post, I believe the 7th bowl and the 7th trumpet happen at almost the same time.
• Revelation 3:3 places church age believers (from Sardis) in the position of being surprised by Jesus "coming like a thief" if they are not alert. How is this possible if all church age believers have been raptured?
• All verses talking about "like a thief" are clear that the experience of being surprised (as a thief in the night) only applies to those who are NOT READY and NOT WATCHING. 1 Thessalonians 5:4 is clear, "but you, brothers, are not in the darkness, so that the day should catch you like a thief".
• Even though Jesus does not suprise those who are READY and ALERT like a thief would, the verses still indicate that the "day and the hour" are unknown and unexpected so there is still some element of surprise possible.

Additional Key Points

• Revelation 3:10 indicates church age believers (from Philadelphia) will be kept from the "hour of trial" that will affect the whole earth. This is 1 of 7 church age churches. What about the rest? If you think about Sardis, Jesus can only come to them "like a thief" if they are present up until the time Jesus comes "like a thief" in Revelation 16:15 between the 6th and 7th bowl
• there are three separate references to trumpets (Matthew 24:31, 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) and they connect to BOTH his second coming and the rapture. Two of them are specific to rapture (1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:16) and 1 Cor 15:52 anchors the time to the LAST trumpet. I tend to believe that all these trumpet references are referring to the SAME trumpet event which is the last trumpet (i.e. seventh trumpet of Revelation) and happens at about the same time as the seventh bowl of wrath.
• Saying that we do not know the "day or the hour" does not say we cannot know the year or the month. I believe that the last 3.5 years are a set amount of time. We will know when it starts (pretty closely, but maybe not exactly), so we will be able to know it is 3.5 years later giving us a year and a month. Knowing the year and/or month does not violate any scripture.

At this point, you may think I am violating the logic of my own points. Specifically, I've said that the church age believers are not appointed (destined) for wrath and that the saints are delivered from (apo or ek) wrath. How can I turn around and then place ANY of the saints on the earth during the bowls of wrath.

Let's look closely at the two primary verses that define the relationship of the saints to God's wrath.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 - and to await his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus, the one who delivers us from the coming wrath.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 - because God did not appoint us for wrath, but for the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

The Bible is absolutely clear that the target of wrath is not the saints. This does not preclude the possibility of the saints being on some part of the earth during SOME of the bowls of wrath. The verse is 1 Thessalonians 1:10 says "delivers us FROM the coming wrath". In most manuscripts, the greek word "ek" (Strong's 1537) is used, but in some manuscripts the greek word "apo" (Strong's 575) is used. I have done some laborious study on both of these and have found a greek scholar that tried to determine if "apo" or "ek" was the correct word. He believes it is "ek", but leaves room that a 100% definitive conclusion cannot be made.

"ek" means "out of" or "away from", but the Strong's entry starts with this information. "Ek" is a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause;.

This definition leaves the interpretation of the meaning of this verse entirely open to the saints being present on the earth even after God starts pouring out the bowls of wrath.

So, I don't believe I am violating the logic of my own points and in this "Worst Case Scenario" some members of the church (i.e. church age believers) could be present on the earth up until just before Armegeddon.

This is my least favorite view of the Rapture, but applying as much intellectual honesty as I can it is the one that fits the totality of Scripture the best. Again, this does not mean that other possibilities are precluded. God is all-powerful and can do what He wants. He could plan for a "secret" rapture of some at a different point and not record it in Scripture in a way that it is interpretable by men's mind. He could plan for some kind of progressive rapture.

The main point of this post is to put forward a view that tears down the "pre-tribulational" rapture as the foregone conclusion. I'm also putting forward a whole new perspective that I haven't seen many look at. In the end, my goal is not to have a new view that I claim is correct. My goal is to encourage everyone to talk to the Lord and ask Him for revelation as it is needed to navigate in the time of His Second Coming.

[Nell]

Key Passages (in biblical order)
Matthew 24:29-31 (Jesus coming in the clouds, trumpet call, gathering "the elect")
Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:36-44 (be alert/ready, like a thief allusion)
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Luke 12:35-48 (be alert/ready)
35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

1 Corinthians 15:52-53 (dead raised to incorruptibility, at the last trumpet)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (relationship to wrath)
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (Jesus in the clouds, shout & trumpet of God, caught up - gk. harpizo)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 (day of the Lord as thief in the night)
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

2 Peter 3:10-14 (Jesus' coming is like a thief)
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Revelation 3:3 (like a thief reference)
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3:10 (one church kept out of "hour of trial")
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

[Timotheist]

I have mentioned this before on this thread. Darby and his cohorts saw support for a pre-trib rapture in two passages:

1) open advent vs coming as a thief. Matt pointed out, like I did, that Paul considered these two phrases to be coincident: in the "day" for those who are waiting, but in the "night" for those who are in "darkness"

2) "Alive and remain". The word 'and' is added to many of the English translations. Reading the passage in its context, Paul is referring to two groups of people, not three: those who have died, and those who are "still alive" (Timotheist's translation) at the coming of the Lord.

A mysteriously veiled third group, those who were raptured before the second coming, would have caused Paul to write this paragraph very differently, and we would no longer comfort each other if people died and missed the pre-trib rapture:

"Regarding those who have passed away, try to take comfort in the fact that, while they missed out on the first rapture, they will be ahead of the second."

[Matt Anderson]

The rapture - part 3 (last part)

In my last post, I took up one view of the rapture (Out of the Midst of Wrath). Here is how I see the other views (note: the 2nd most likely view is pre-wrath and I can see how it could fit scripture).

There are two main difficulties in accepting other views as reliable.
1. We are to be changed and caught up at the sound of the LAST TRUMPET (1 Cor 15:52). This seems like a definitive time marker which seems to conceptually and literally connect with the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation.
2. Jesus' "coming like a thief" is pronounced clearly, loudly and specifically between the 6th and 7th bowl in Revelation 16:15. Given the connection I see between "coming like a thief" and Jesus' Second Coming, I don't know how any other view can work.

Someone will have to convince me with some text from the Word that "coming like a thief" could happen twice and be a second event that happens earlier than Revelation 16:15.

Again, I do not preclude the power of God nor His ability to share some obscure references that I don't see in Scripture. I have seen some obscure references applied to Jesus' first coming in the New Testament.

Lastly, I don't want my current view to be correct. I really don't, but I see danger for all believers in holding a pre-tribulational rapture viewpoint too strongly. I feel that the pre-tribulational rapture view has lead to a great sleepiness and dullness in the broader church. Many listen to the End Times events with the general idea of "Oh, that is for those other people, I won't be here".

Personally, I have concluded that EVEN IF the pre-tribulational rapture of the whole church turns out to be what happens, it is still unsound doctrine at this time for believers. Teaching it as the ONLY POSSIBILITY to believers given the UNCERTAINTY in the Word of God is a great disservice to their maturing in Christ. It is scary to think about being in the Great Tribulation, but I know that times of fear in my life have led to some of the greatest times of maturing in the Lord. I have to learn how to process my fear and come to a place of faith and surety in Christ alone. This is a matter of my heart and learning to trust Him more fully in everything.

From my review of many current christian teachers, it seems that almost all of them are exclusively teaching pre-tribulational rapture as the only valid view. What happens when we begin to realize that the last 7 years have started or the last 3.5 years and the church is still present on the earth? Will this be part of what helps cause or increase a "great falling away" from the faith? Will the faith that congregants have placed in their teachers, pastors and/or leaders be destroyed? For all of those christians who have not set the anchor of their heart on Jesus Christ be lost at sea?

Even if you do not agree with my current view, consider what is healthy doctrine? Is it healthy to lock in on the pre-tribulational rapture as the ONLY possibility? If it is not, then consider the real possibility that the church could be here during the Great Tribulation and process through this in your heart with the Lord.

Yes, I know... A bit of preachiness at the end of this part about the rapture. I have been very concerned that the church is under massive deception on this topic and that almost the entire realm of well-known christian teachers are unknowingly collaborating with the Enemy to spread this deception. The deception I refer to is teach the pre-tribulational rapture as the ONLY legitimate possibility.

Matt

P.S. There is one major foundational argument that most christian teachers use to convince people of pre-tribulational rapture. They say that after Chapter 3 of Revelation we no longer see the "church" (i.e. gk ekklessia) mentioned in the text of Revelation and that the twelve tribes of Israel are the only thing referenced. To them, this means the church is no longer present and the target of Great Tribulation is "Israel" and other non-believers on the earth. I will take up this issue with my last set of posts on End Times prophecy regarding "Who is Israel?"