What The Gospel Means to Me

[Scribe]

Originally Posted by OBW

I'm sorry you think in terms of categories. In my Bible, there is no Jew or Gentile, rich or poor, bond or free, male or female, but Christ is all and in all.

Then that wife you were talking too.....what is that? She and you must not be in Christ according to your Word.

Originally Posted by OBW

And Paul judges no one. God is the only one who judges.

Is the Word you write God? And if not, how do you presume to judge me our my teaching?

Scribe

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Scribe

Then that wife you were talking too.....what is that? She and you must not be in Christ according to your Word.

Equivocation. In terms of our status before God and as brothers and sisters in Christ, there is nothing that categorically distinguishes one from another. You said that I must be a Gentile in a manner that made the gospel I receive different from the gospel that someone else (presumably a Jew) might receive. In that context, there is no Jew or Gentile, etc., yet you made a distinction, suggesting that a different gospel is required and a different kind of judging.

But that is not the same as saying there is no such thing as male and female, husband and wife, etc. To suggest otherwise is a form of equivocation. You are mashing two different discussions that share a word together (but in their separate contexts do not mean the same thing) and making them one. And for what purpose? To mock my honest critique of your talk about me being Gentile.

Originally Posted by Scribe

Is the Word you write God? And if not, how do you presume to judge me our my teaching?

While I would not presume as you do to claim that my word is God, I believe that my word is supported much more clearly by God's word.

And I do not "judge" your teaching. I cannot do that. I can only give my honest critique of your words when placed up against the backdrop of scripture. And when I say "scripture," I am not suggesting that my own imagination qualifies. Just because I might write from what I believe to be inspiration of revelation concerning God, Christ, the church, etc., it does not remove my need to be sure that the existing scripture is in harmony with it before I make even a feeble claim as to its correctness.


But if I allow my own writing to raise to the level of scripture in my own mind, then the whole of scripture becomes illogic in all parts. And the call "come, let us reason" becomes irrelevant since there is no longer an agreed measure of truth. If I can write and I can call it truth, and you can write and you can call it truth, then if we disagree there is no hope for reconciliation. But if we both can write in the manner you suggest, then one of two things must happen:

1. Truth becomes more relativistic than the worst claims laid at the feet of postmodernism. There ceases to be Truth and we are left with only "my truth."
2. One of us must be deluded as to our charge to write. And how do we make this determination? I determine that you are the false writer and you determine that I am the false writer. We would never choose the other instead of ourselves. And this then presupposes that one of us truly is some kind of oracle of God that everyone should be listening to. God was clear about oracles in the OT. He said that self-proclaimed oracles are not from God.

In the mean time, I make no such claim of absolute rightness. I can only defer to that which I know to be right and go there to see whether the claims made by others measure up. So far, you have been found wanting. You may not like what I have said, but I have not said it from my own mouth or from my own "writing." I have spoken from a base grounded in the clear and unequivocal scripture — the true Word of God.

[Scribe]

Originally Posted by OBW

Equivocation. In terms of our status before God and as brothers and sisters in Christ, there is nothing that categorically distinguishes one from another. You said that I must be a Gentile in a manner that made the gospel I receive different from the gospel that someone else (presumably a Jew) might receive. In that context, there is no Jew or Gentile, etc., yet you made a distinction, suggesting that a different gospel is required and a different kind of judging.

But that is not the same as saying there is no such thing as male and female, husband and wife, etc. To suggest otherwise is a form of equivocation. You are mashing two different discussions that share a word together (but in their separate contexts do not mean the same thing) and making them one. And for what purpose? To mock my honest critique of your talk about me being Gentile.

You wrote......"In my Bible, there is no Jew or gentile".

You have a very small Bible then. In my Bible there is the church composed of those called out of Jew and gentile. The church is the body of Israel's messiah. The chruch is the heavenly bride The church is become as the angel. There is no Jew or gentile, male or female in the Christ. The church is the heavenly called out. And is the Holy spirit of the great mankind. The churches separation from Israel did not end Israel anymore than it's calling ended the nations. In my Bible and my gospel not only does the church enter glory, but then that same church becomes the instrument through which God raises Israel from among the dead and establishes him as royal priest before the nations. The church is son of God to Israel and Israel is firstborn son of Jehovah. Exodus 4:22. The church comes down upon Israel as bride joining to her husband. Jesus the groom is sown in Israel to respond to the churches heavenly ministry. This marriage is in my Bible. This is the selection part of the gospel which follows upon the glory, as I have outlined below. But the gospel does not end there. Yes the church is the holy of holies and Israel is the holy place, but then the gospel goes out to the nations. Israel stands as a holy priest to shepherd the nations into David's kingdom. All the angels watch this grand vision playing out in man.

And my point to you is......if the Lord had not used Peter to open the door to us, the gentiles, and if He had not sent Paul through that door, and if James and the other Jews had not given him the right hand of fellowship, we would have no entrance, no gospel! If you do not carefully attend to this matter, you have "another" gospel. Our gospel comes directly from Pauls hand and we must be careful to attend to it. As the Word must cut straight separation of your spirit, soul, and body, the ministry to and of the church, Israel, and the nations, must be cut straight.

As much as in Christ there is no difference between you and your wife, for there is neither male or female, so in Christ there is neither Jew no gentile. And also, so as much as you do keep destinction of the male and female betwen you and your wife in the world, so is there destinction between Jew and gentile. The church is called, not to confuse this, but to sanctify it. If you can't see this you are in danger of all the judgments written by the hand of Paul in Romans 1.

Originally Posted by OBW

While I would not presume as you do to claim that my word is God, I believe that my word is supported much more clearly by God's word.

And I do not "judge" your teaching. I cannot do that. I can only give my honest critique of your words when placed up against the backdrop of scripture. And when I say "scripture," I am not suggesting that my own imagination qualifies. Just because I might write from what I believe to be inspiration of revelation concerning God, Christ, the church, etc., it does not remove my need to be sure that the existing scripture is in harmony with it before I make even a feeble claim as to its correctness..

I out lined how God sevens Himself to us in the gospel. First He brings us to full condemantion. So great is the condemantion that we cannot judge another for all are already fully judged and sentenced. In humbleness to this first work in the gospel, the Holy Spirit then applies justification to us. In that, the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ becomes revelation. That blood cleanes our conscience so that we can imagine pure thoughts, setting our mind on things above. Your fear of your imagination or even mine against you, is systemic of a lack of trust in that blood, and realization of the "much more "that comes in the sanctification that follows. Romans 5:10.

Originally Posted by OBW

But if I allow my own writing to raise to the level of scripture in my own mind, then the whole of scripture becomes illogic in all parts. And the call "come, let us reason" becomes irrelevant since there is no longer an agreed measure of truth. If I can write and I can call it truth, and you can write and you can call it truth, then if we disagree there is no hope for reconciliation. But if we both can write in the manner you suggest, then one of two things must happen:

1. Truth becomes more relativistic than the worst claims laid at the feet of postmodernism. There ceases to be Truth and we are left with only "my truth."
2. One of us must be deluded as to our charge to write. And how do we make this determination? I determine that you are the false writer and you determine that I am the false writer. We would never choose the other instead of ourselves. And this then presupposes that one of us truly is some kind of oracle of God that everyone should be listening to. God was clear about oracles in the OT. He said that self-proclaimed oracles are not from God.

"Sanctify them in your Truth, your Word is Truth" John 17:17

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the Truth in unrighteousness" Romans 1:18

The third thing that happens is the Word rules and we learn to submit and enjoy the right hand of fellowship.

The obedience of faith you write of comes out of hearing and obeying the Word. He is real to defeat you and me. If we write incorrectly he will adjust us, if we write deceitfully we build a case against our own self and we stumble over our own writing and shall be removed. All hold the Truth, but not all come to the revelation of the Truth. You say we can't be trusted to handle the Word. I say the revelation of the Word of the oath is the uniting bond.

I do not determine that you are a false writer. I believe you are writing exactly who you are and this is by the hand of the Lord. The Word is greater even than a man's revelation or faith of Him. Just as Jannes and Janbres opposed Moses with their staff , so are men today. In time the Truth shall stand and those that have faith in Him shall be found leaning on the staff of the Word in hand. I do know that there is a spirit of anti christ that fights to keep the revelation of the anointed Word from man. And i know that it is especially hard to walk as a man in the name of the Arch angel Michael. Nevertheless, it is Christ who loves in us and our faith if the son of God arising in us. So there is hope for all, even a man named Michael,

Originally Posted by OBW

In the mean time, I make no such claim of absolute rightness. I can only defer to that which I know to be right and go there to see whether the claims made by others measure up. So far, you have been found wanting. You may not like what I have said, but I have not said it from my own mouth or from my own "writing." I have spoken from a base grounded in the clear and unequivocal scripture — the true Word of God.

John 17:20"And I do not demand for these only, but also for those who believe into me through their Word". Each saint has a Word. The Bible bears witness to this days present Word in the hand of the saints.

Blessed be the fellowship of Michael and Scribe.
And blessed be Israel from the hand of the church.

Scribe

[OBW]

Too much randomness to respond to. But on the following I will respond.

Originally Posted by Scribe

I out lined how God sevens Himself to us in the gospel. First He brings us to full condemantion. So great is the condemantion that we cannot judge another for all are already fully judged and sentenced.

God "sevens" himself? Why not "threes" or "thirteens" or "twelves"?

So you think that the fact that our natural man is fully condemned, therefore we have no basis to say anything that is critical of another? Then on what basis does Matthew 18 exist? Why should the brothers in Jerusalem even considered the complaint of the Gentiles and submitted it to their "council" in Acts 15?

Further note that Matthew did not say to not deal with the speck in your brother's eye. He said to deal with your own beam first.

And you clearly do not believe that we have no basis to judge another (whether or not "judge" is the proper word in the context) because you expound your judgments post after post. You even judge my Bible, suggesting that it is small because, in one context, I note that there is no Jew or Gentile, while in another context, clearly there is Jew and Gentile. To try to make those two contexts into one is equivocation. Appears that your judgment of my Bible is a matter of your own error in understanding the meaning of words and their contexts.

I should probably just leave you alone. There are some who are wondering why I bother responding to the sound and fury of these self-claimed "writings of God." And my answer is that unless I intend to abandon this forum as having been taken over by yet another crazy ministry, I will not simply ignore so many off-topic and off-the-reservation posts and let them stand unchallenged.

Originally Posted by Scribe

I do not determine that you are a false writer. I believe you are writing exactly who you are and this is by the hand of the Lord. The Word is greater even than a man's revelation or faith of Him. Just as Jannes and Janbres opposed Moses with their staff , so are men today. In time the Truth shall stand and those that have faith in Him shall be found leaning on the staff of the Word in hand. I do know that there is a spirit of anti christ that fights to keep the revelation of the anointed Word from man. And i know that it is especially hard to walk as a man in the name of the Arch angel Michael. Nevertheless, it is Christ who loves in us and our faith if the son of God arising in us. So there is hope for all, even a man named Michael.

Your patronizing is pathetic. And in the same breath you raise your word to the level of "anointed word" while indirectly saying that my word, while "exactly who you are [I am]," is opposing God, like Jannes and Jambres.

You clearly believe that your word is special and anointed and that anyone who disagrees is merely writing from self and not from truth. Yet your word is spreading over this forum like a plague of locusts. It is not about Nee, Lee, or the LRC, but is the fanciful writings of a self-proclaimed writer of scripture. And when you finally spell out your reason for believing that you have this special position, your claim will be seen as little more than another "transference of the mantle" of one deluded charlatan to another. Do not expect to find any followers here. Even if there are lurkers, they are not as soft-headed as you must hope.

[Scribe]

Originally Posted by OBW

Too much randomness to respond to. But on the following I will respond.
God "sevens" himself? Why not "threes" or "thirteens" or "twelves"?.

You need to take up this matter with the Lord. Why the mystery seven churches, not three or twelve? Why the mystery of seven stars in the hand of the son of man, not three or twelve. Why does He intervene in sevening, not threeing, or twelving? Hebrews 6:17. Why seven days in a week, not three or twelve? What sabbath on seventh, not third or twelfth? On and on.....Perhaps He errs? Perhaps he should have counseled with you first?


S

Originally Posted by OBW

o you think that the fact that our natural man is fully condemned, therefore we have no basis to say anything that is critical of another? Then on what basis does Matthew 18 exist? Why should the brothers in Jerusalem even considered the complaint of the Gentiles and submitted it to their "council" in Acts 15?

Further note that Matthew did not say to not deal with the speck in your brother's eye. He said to deal with your own beam first.

And you clearly do not believe that we have no basis to judge another (whether or not "judge" is the proper word in the context) because you expound your judgments post after post. You even judge my Bible, suggesting that it is small because, in one context, I note that there is no Jew or Gentile, while in another context, clearly there is Jew and Gentile. To try to make those two contexts into one is equivocation. Appears that your judgment of my Bible is a matter of your own error in understanding the meaning of words and their contexts.

Once again you twist and make up what I have not said. This is because you can't hear. You filter all things through your bitterness and pre-conception. We are made to judge all things! God intends to dwell in man and judge His whole creation from man. We judge the world, we judge the angels and we judge ourselves. At every writing we judge ourselves worth or unworthy. Paul tells us we cannot judge from the condemned place in the gospel, but clearly in the sanctification portion we judge all things. Most of the judgments you say I judge you with, are just my agreements with your own judgment of yourself. You say "in my Bible there is neither Jew nor gentile". You judge that only the church is on your Bible. You judge that a man can't walk hand in hand with the Word, and yet you write as if you had meaning in your writing.

Originally Posted by OBW

I should probably just leave you alone. There are some who are wondering why I bother responding to the sound and fury of these self-claimed "writings of God." And my answer is that unless I intend to abandon this forum as having been taken over by yet another crazy ministry, I will not simply ignore so many off-topic and off-the-reservation posts and let them stand unchallenged..

Another crazy ministry? You mean beside yours and others you judge so. Yes, you should probably leave me alone. If you had don't this to begin with I would have posted seven measures of my testimony in the local churches and then probably have been gone. But you have brought up many questions. You ask the questions just to create conflict, but I answer as to minister truth to the questions.

Originally Posted by OBW

Your patronizing is pathetic. And in the same breath you raise your word to the level of "anointed word" while indirectly saying that my word, while "exactly who you are [I am]," is opposing God, like Jannes and Jambres..

You thought I was patronizing you? I was telling you that to write without faith as you do is to write a judgment against yourself for you do not come to the truth that the Word is God in your hand. Your lack of faith opposes the Word you try to write.

Originally Posted by OBW

You clearly believe that your word is special and anointed and that anyone who disagrees is merely writing from self and not from truth. Yet your word is spreading over this forum like a plague of locusts. It is not about Nee, Lee, or the LRC, but is the fanciful writings of a self-proclaimed writer of scripture. And when you finally spell out your reason for believing that you have this special position, your claim will be seen as little more than another "transference of the mantle" of one deluded charlatan to another. Do not expect to find any followers here. Even if there are lurkers, they are not as soft-headed as you must hope.

I believe Moses Word was special. I also believe David's Word is special. I believe Isaiah's and Jeremiah's Word is special. I believe John, Peter and James Word is special too. And I believe Paul's Word is special. I believe also Luke's Word is special and I believe hundreds of their companion saints whose Words we don't have also had special Word. I believe my Word is also special. I believe the Word is special because He is God. I even believe your Word is special, though it serves to judge you, because you do not believe your Word is God. Such unbelief does not allow the Word to deal with your heart so as to Branch to your hand in revelation. You write without respect for the Word. You write to judge others writing but have no confidence that your Word is God. And because you do not believe your own writing, you become enraged that I do. The Word is special and He is special in the hand of all His saints. You exclude yourself and try to exclude me too.

Anyway, you do what you have to do.

"in the defence and confirmation of the gospel"

Scribe

[Scribe]

Ephesians 1:3-14 (Darby Translation)



3Blessed [be] the God and Father of our(Israel) Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us (Israel) with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ;
4according as he has chosen us (Israel) in him before [the] world's foundation, that we (Israel) should be holy and blameless before him in love;
5having marked us(Israel) out beforehand for adoption through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6to [the] praise of [the] glory of his grace, wherein he has taken us(Israel) into favour in the Beloved:
7in whom we (Israel) have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of offences, according to the riches of his grace;
8which he has caused to abound towards us (Israel)in all wisdom and intelligence,
9having made known to us (Israel)the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself
10for [the] administration of the fulness of times; to head up all things in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth; in him,
11in whom we (Israel) have also obtained an inheritance, being marked out beforehand according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his own will,
12that we(Israel) should be to [the] praise of his glory who have pre-trusted in the Christ:
13in whom *ye* also(gentiles) [have trusted], having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye (gentiles) have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is [the] earnest of our (jew and gentile) inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession (Israel) to [the] praise of his glory.

In these twelve verses Paul lays out the mystery of Christ in a sentence. I have added the parenthesis so we can see who Paul writes of. In v 3-6 The Father choses and predestinates Israel before the foundation of the world. This is His eternal purpose, to bring Israel to sonship. In v 7-12, he shows that Israel has been redeemed in the Son. The Fathers will is accomplished. Israel is selected and predestinated to sonship and is redeemed in the beloved, accomplished, but they are unaware. This is where the gentile enters......"In whom you also"v 13-14......Unless we also are called into our great and glorious portion, there is no application to Israel.
But when we hear "the Word of the Truth" which is the gospel of our salvation, we become sealed and have the pledge that equipts us to redeem the acquired possession! When we hear the Word of the Truth we have the gospel in hand and are able to begin to apply it to the Jews delivered also into our hand. This is the sign of Revelation chapter one.

The Word of the Truth is the gospel! With the Word of the Truth in hand we are equipt to apply the gospel to Israel. We are able to shepherd them into the revelation of who they are in the Father's heart.

Scribe

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Scribe

You thought I was patronizing you? I was telling you that to write without faith as you do is to write a judgment against yourself for you do not come to the truth that the Word is God in your hand. Your lack of faith opposes the Word you try to write.

I have much faith. What I lack is the delusion that I can call what I write my "Word" and in the next sentence say that the Word is God and therefore elevate "my Word" to the status of God. You keep pushing this nonsensical, baseless notion. But you think it is because you think it is. So in your mind, it is. But you cannot establish any basis for your word being "Word." You just quote a verse, use some terms, and then say it is so. A equals B, therefore C.

[UntoHim]

1 Corinthians 15:3,4 (emphasis mine)
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures

I agree with Mike that the gospel should be acted upon, not just accepted and believed, but this is not really where I was going with this thread. Neither did I want to go off in the direction that Scribe seemed to be taking us. Nobody has to agree with what I wrote in the first note, but can I ask that we limit our comments to the matter at hand? There are many other boards on the forum to cover just about any topic.

I would say “Paul's gospel” was the very same gospel as we see presented in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and I have presented the verse above to bolster this contention. In checking with the original Greek, and in accordance with the context, the apostle Paul is stating rather plainly what the gospel is to him, and what he received. While Paul was not a personal witness to Christ's death and resurrection (as Mt, Mk, Lk and Jn) he did receive this very same gospel directly from the Lord Jesus (remember that "who art thou Lord" experience). Paul apparently went on to receive many other "visions and revelations of the Lord" (2 Cor 12) but told the Corinthians that he could not boast in these further visions and revelations, but would rather boast in his weakness: "Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong". Weaknesses, insults, distresses, persecutions and difficulties? Now who else went through these things for our sake? This is another integral part of THE Gospel, that Christ suffered these things for our sake and for our salvation.

Witness Lee claimed that Paul's epistles to the Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians were “the heart of the divine revelation”. While Paul related many high and deep revelations in these epistles, only THE Gospel should be considered “of first importance”. Again I would submit that “Paul’s gospel” was nothing more and nothing less than the gospel that is presented by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All further doctrines, teachings and revelations are of lesser importance. Doctrines, teachings and revelations cannot save a soul. And if our Local Church experience proved anything, it is that teachings, practices and even revelations cannot change or transform a person. Only The Gospel can do this. The New Testament links all the major attributes of God to the gospel – power, love, holiness, righteousness, grace, mercy and so much more.

As I was writing here I was reminded of the last verse in the wonderful hymn “Hast thou heard Him, seen Him, known Him” –
‘Tis the look that melted Peter
‘Tis the face that Stephen saw
‘Tis the heart that wept with Mary
Can alone from idols draw

Those of us oldies but goodies out there can surely testify that teachings, practices and revelations (even biblical ones) can become an idol of sorts. But the gospel, The Gospel preached by the Lord Jesus and then by his chosen witnesses, can and should be an idol to us, for it takes us to the very One who is to be idolized, worshiped and adored. I think the apostle Paul was getting at this when he proclaimed: “God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Gal 6:14) We know Paul and the other apostles taught and wrote about more than just the cross, but what did they “glory” in? What was the foundation of their lives? From where did they draw their strength to suffer and endure and become the first pillars in the church and the original champions of the Christian faith? Was it from their wonderful and advanced teachings and revelations, or was it from The Gospel?

So what about us today? What is the foundation of our lives – both personal and corporate? Do we preach this gospel without ceasing? (owch) Do we glory only in the cross? (owch) Do we live out this gospel to the world around us? (double owch) Yeah I'm pointing a finger at ya'll - but when I'm pointing a finger at someone there are three fingers pointing right back at me. (triple owch)