Overcomer Doctrine (Merged Thread)

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Matthew 24 - But he is literally called a "wicked" servant. Look at his behavior. This is a servant in name but not in action/behavior. This is a false believer, false apostle, etc. Entrusted with care of the flock but abuses his power - beats those below him. That's what the apostle Paul describes in Corinthians as false apostles ("super apostles") - they slap in the face those who are under their care.

Matthew 25 - thanks for giving actual reasoning on this one! I can see both sides on this parable. But man.....the Lord saying "I don't know you", and the next parable where the Lord describes the money-keeping servant as "worthless".....is this how believers are referred to in the Bible?

Trapped

I was thinking about this recently: a regenerated believer is capable of everything a non-regenerated person is. That's because they both share the same flesh, which scripture is clear about it containing no good thing (i.e., the "fruits of the flesh are . . ."). However, the regenerated person is also capable of things the non-regenerated one isn't: real love, joy, peace and experiencing the inner Anointing. The regenerated one can chose to walk according to spirit or not, but the unregenerated one does not have that choice. So yes, a true believer (regenerated partaker of the divine nature) can choose to do bad things like beat other believers, etc.

[Trapped]

While I see that there seem to be differing possible interpretations of the parables in question, Jesus usually explains His parables in some way.

Do we consider Matthew 25:31-46 to be the explanation of the parables in Matthew 24:45-51 (wicked servant beating fellow servants), Matthew 25:1-13 (virgins with oil) and Matthew 25:14-30 (servants and bags of gold)?

I do consider Matthew 25:31-46 to be the explanation of those parables. Do other participants in this thread agree with that statement or no?

If you agree, I think Matthew 25:31-46 makes it perfectly clear that the wicked servants and virgins without oil are unbelievers. Look at what Jesus says about them:

Matthew 25:41, 46
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I just don't see how that can reasonably be believers.

Trapped

P.S. I could be wrong. Maybe the explanation in 31-46 is something different and is not the explanation. In that case - more discussion is needed!

[UntoHim]

"Some people are so heavenly minded that they are of no earthly good"
Oliver Wendell Holmes.

In my many years of experience and observation, I find it's more than enough for us Christians who live in the cushy, comfortable Western world to just overcome taking for granted all the privileges and blessings that surround us. If we can just overcome higher gas prices and FaceBook being down for a few hours, maybe, just maybe we can start to work on the real overcoming. You know...where you have to worry about where your next meal is coming from, or whether or not the government is going to arrest you for having a Bible, or get beaten half to death for holding a Christian meeting in your living room.

Speaking for myself, I would like to overcome the temptation to go a day without reading a few verses. I would like to overcome all the garbage that is splashed before my eyes on the very computer screen that I am typing these words on. I would like to overcome the ease and comfort of a prayerless life in which I don't worry about people who are trapped within a system of error that teaches them false notions about what it is to be an overcomer. May God have mercy.
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"Some people are so heavenly minded that they are of no earthly good"
Oliver Wendell Holmes.

In my many years of experience and observation, I find it's more than enough for us Christians who live in the cushy, comfortable Western world to just overcome taking for granted all the privileges and blessings that surround us. If we can just overcome higher gas prices and FaceBook being down for a few hours, maybe, just maybe we can start to work on the real overcoming. You know...where you have to worry about where your next meal is coming from, or whether or not the government is going to arrest you for having a Bible, or get beaten half to death for holding a Christian meeting in your living room.

Speaking for myself, I would like to overcome the temptation to go a day without reading a few verses. I would like to overcome all the garbage that is splashed before my eyes on the very computer screen that I am typing these words on. I would like to overcome the ease and comfort of a prayerless life in which I don't worry about people who are trapped within a system of error that teaches them false notions about what it is to be an overcomer. May God have mercy.
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So very true! Where I live, Scottsdale, we have things pretty good it seems and while I take many things for granted a good deal of the time, I am thankful for what we've been given - it is simply where He has placed us. Some time ago, a brother related something that came from a brother who I believe lived in Africa. He evidently said that while they have a multitude of hardships in their country and even a degree of persecution, he was blessed by his circumstances in that they caused him to regularly cry out to the Lord. He said he considered what we have in America as possibly the bigger test and temptation, in that we could more easily be lulled into total complacency.

This also reminds me of something another brother said (who the Lord recently took from this life) . . . he said he told the Lord, "Lord, if I could I'd live without you, but thank You, You don't let me!" He was referring to the things the Lord is merciful to bring our way, to humble us and cause us to turn to Him.

When we talk of overcoming, I'm reminded of something the Lord showed me a couple years ago. In Matthew 5:23 the Lord tells the faithful servant, "you have been faithful in a FEW things, enter into the joy of your Lord." So brother, only the Lord knows those few things we are expected to be faithful in . . . in the things right where He has placed us!

[Raptor]

_______________________Wise Virgin___Foolish Virgin______Unbeliever
virgin______________________x_____________x_______ ____________0
have lamps with oil___________x_____________x____________________0
knows about Bridegroom_______x_____________x__________________ _0
desires to meet Bridegroom_____x_____________x___________________0
can take extra oil_____________x_____________x___________________ 0
actually took extra oil__________x_____________0___________________0
hear cry to meet Bridgroom_____x_____________x___________________0
ability to buy oil______________x_____________x__________________ _0
those who were ready_________x_____________0___________________0
known by the Lord____________x_____________0___________________ 0
command to keep watch_______x_____________x___________________0

It is clear that all the 10 virgins are believers. The difference between wise and foolish is not in whether they are a virigin (believer) or not (unbeliever). The issue is whether they are foolish or not. The foolish fulfill all the points indicating they are believers except not taking extra oil, are not ready, and therefore are not recognized by the Lord. In addition, nowhwere in the Bible are unbelievers likened to virgins.

The foolish virgins cannot be false believers. The word does not say that. And anytime the word talks about a false believer it tells you he is false or describes clearly how he is false; it does not leave it up to you to decide or figure it out: for example, Judas, "and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him." (Mark 3.19); the "false prophet" in Revelation; what the Antichrist does, the great harlot.

That the Lord does "not know" the foolish virgins does not mean they are unbelievers. God knows all unbelievers: 1) He is omnisicient, so He knows them too. 2.) He created each and every one of them. 3.) the Father, "from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named." Eph. 3:15.

He does not recognize, approve, appreciate the foolish vrigins. They are like an estranged son that neglected his father, left home and shows up years later to try to claim a part of the inheritance. So the father tells him, "no, I don´t even know you anymore."

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Raptor

_______________________Wise Virgin___Foolish Virgin______Unbeliever
[chart]

It is clear that all the 10 virgins are believers. The difference between wise and foolish is not in whether they are a virigin (believer) or not (unbeliever). The issue is whether they are foolish or not. The foolish fulfill all the points indicating they are believers except not taking extra oil, are not ready, and therefore are not recognized by the Lord. In addition, nowhwere in the Bible are unbelievers likened to virgins.

The foolish virgins cannot be false believers. The word does not say that. And anytime the word talks about a false believer it tells you he is false or describes clearly how he is false; it does not leave it up to you to decide or figure it out: for example, Judas, "and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him." (Mark 3.19); the "false prophet" in Revelation; what the Antichrist does, the great harlot.

That the Lord does "not know" the foolish virgins does not mean they are unbelievers. God knows all unbelievers: 1) He is omnisicient, so He knows them too. 2.) He created each and every one of them. 3.) the Father, "from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named." Eph. 3:15.

He does not recognize, approve, appreciate the foolish vrigins. They are like an estranged son that neglected his father, left home and shows up years later to try to claim a part of the inheritance. So the father tells him, "no, I don´t even know you anymore."

Most of the time (except for one instance) in your post here you keep saying that I've said the virgins are believers and unbelievers. That's not what I've said. I said they are true believers and false believers. (false believer is different from an unbeliever) This would make them both "believers" in name, and even all of them could be present in the church. There are plenty of people who say they are Christian but think sin is no big deal, who were born into a Christian family and think that saves them, who walk around thinking they are ok with God because they don't know the gospel. They often in appearance seem to be a believer (tare who looks like wheat, mixed in with the wheat).

I agree that the Lords knows all unbelievers, indeed, all people. He's the one who created them. "Know" here doesn't mean simply "know you exist". He knows everyone who exist. It's that they are "known", acknowledged by Him, like in Revelation where He says He will acknowledge them before His Father. Otherwise, what we have are true believers who truly have the Holy Spirit, yet who are not known by the Lord. I just don't see how that's possible.

The word "false" would not necessarily be explicitly stated in a parable. That's the point of a parable....things aren't explicitly stated until Jesus explains them after.

I mentioned that it seems to me like these parables are then explained by Jesus at the end of Matthew 25. Look at how he describes their end in verses 31-46 ("eternal fire" and "eternal punishment"). It's not the end of any true believer.

I've already said that I can actually see how a reasonable person can conclude your and Sons to Glory's viewpoint. There surely is evidence for it! I've heard both interpretations out there. Not everyone agrees on these parables. I'm totally fine to disagree on this interpretation, and hold differing views!

Trapped

[Sons to Glory!]

Thanks, Trapped, for your candid observations! And thanks, Raptor, for that grid you shared! I've not had the term, "false believer" in my vocabulary. Maybe that's because I don't believe someone can be regenerated and born again from God . . . become a child of His . . . and then somehow become unborn. To me, this goes against nature and common sense. What God has done is permanent. But there is still accountability for things the child of God does while still in the flesh - rewards to be gained or lost, depending on how well the race was run. This is not a performance thing, but rather how well a child allowed this new life to grow in them and be manifested through them (their works). It's about what was done with this grace given them, how much they gave up their "right" to themselves, and how much they let God operate in and through them.

My view is that if a child of God holds closely this right to themselves (aka free will) and conducts their life as they see fit, holds on to worldly things and pursuits, etc., the life of Christ will be hindered in them. We can call these ones non-overcomers, worldly Christians, backsliders or false believers, however, if they have received the new life and birth, they don't become unborn.

Ultimately, it's like a brother I know that said this about the book of Revelation: "Don't get all caught up in the interpretations of the details - the main point is simply this, Be Ready!"

[Ohio]

I don't think Raptor or STG would equate the parable of the Virgins with the outcome of the Sheep and Goats here in Matt 25. So the outcome of the "goats" should not be equated with the outcome of the "foolish virgins." Mt 25.32 indicates that the "nations" will be brought before Him. These are not the children of God. These nations will be judged by whether they "fear God" and how they treat the Lord's brothers and sisters. The book of Revelations continually refers to "the nations" as a collective of non-Jews and non-Christians, and some of these will be outside of the New Jerusalem and not in the lake of fire. (Rev 21.24-22.2)

This opens up a subject which you may not be familiar with. It concerns the period of time during the restoration of the Temple worship in Jerusalem. The Gospel of grace by faith to become a child of God born of the Spirit began with the resurrection of Jesus Christ and effectively ends with the "fullness of the Gentiles / Nations," and the resumption of the sacrifices in Israel, the last 7 years of Daniel's prophecy. (Romans 11.25; Rev 14.6; Daniel 9)

[Trapped]

Ohio - Oh yeah, the nations, I think you're right. Ok so that latter part of Matthew isn't necessarily the explanation for those parables!

StG - false believer doesn't mean someone who was genuinely born again and then becomes unborn. I don't think that's possible either. It's someone who isn't really born again. They might be innocuous - hanging around Christian circles, calling themselves a Christian, but not really a believer. Or they might be dangerous - wolf in sheep's clothing that crept in and is terrorizing the flock. At least that has been my understanding of it for a while.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I said they are true believers and false believers. (false believer is different from an unbeliever) This would make them both "believers" in name, and even all of them could be present in the church. There are plenty of people who say they are Christian but think sin is no big deal, who were born into a Christian family and think that saves them, who walk around thinking they are ok with God because they don't know the gospel. They often in appearance seem to be a believer (tare who looks like wheat, mixed in with the wheat).
Trapped

I´m having a hard time understanding your definition of "false believer." Let me use other terminology; from this point of view, there are only 2 kinds of people in the world: in the New Testament during the age of grace, we have 1.) those who have been regenerated, who have received the life of God, they are sons of God. And 2.) those who do not have the life of God, who are not regenerated, they are not born again.

So I see a "true believer" as a born again, regenerated son of God. A "false believer" is the same as an "unbeliever;" he is not born again: they could be bad people or good people, religious, gamblers, abusers, classical piano players, football stars, murderes, tares, presidents, scientists. It does not matter; they were never born again.

A tare does not have the life of the wheat; it might look and act the same, but in its essence, it does not have the life of wheat. That is the difference. So the foolish virgins cannot be tares, they are wheat. They have the life of God.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I´m having a hard time understanding your definition of "false believer." Let me use other terminology; from this point of view, there are only 2 kinds of people in the world: in the New Testament during the age of grace, we have 1.) those who have been regenerated, who have received the life of God, they are sons of God. And 2.) those who do not have the life of God, who are not regenerated, they are not born again.

So I see a "true believer" as a born again, regenerated son of God. A "false believer" is the same as an "unbeliever;" he is not born again: they could be bad people or good people, religious, gamblers, abusers, classical piano players, football stars, murderes, tares, presidents, scientists. It does not matter; they were never born again.

A tare does not have the life of the wheat; it might look and act the same, but in its essence, it does not have the life of wheat. That is the difference. So the foolish virgins cannot be tares, they are wheat. They have the life of God.

I see your viewpoint of categorizing in these two ways. Ultimately, that is what happens - those who believe and have been regenerated, who are sons of God will be with Him for eternity, and those who don't, who have not been regenerated, who are not sons of God will not be with Him for eternity. Totally on the same page with you.

Where I am making a distinction, is that here on the earth some of those "unbelievers" are gamblers, abusers, piano players, footballers, etc, out in the world. They are out in the world and freely admit they don't believe in God, or want nothing to do with God. They don't claim to know Christ, they don't profess belief in Christ, etc.

However, some of those "unbelievers" are those same kinds of people, but mixed in among the believers in the church. They call themselves believers, they associate with and join in gatherings of churches. Some of them even lead congregations, or appear to. They claim to know Christ and profess belief in Him. They enjoy the benefits of, or take advantage of, the Christian community but without true love for Christ. The Bible speaks of these. This is what I mean when I say "false believer".

1 John 2:9
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness.

Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Matthew 15:8
“’These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

Matthew 7:15
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

2 Corinthians 11:13
For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

Jude 1:4
For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Acts 20:29-30
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

This is why in Matthew 18, if a "brother" refuses to hear after three times of being shown his error, Jesus' instruction is to treat him like......a gentile or tax collector and put him out of the church. We treat them like unbelievers. We remove them from the church. They were in the church, but showed themselves (by their unrepentant and hardened heart even in the face of one person, numerous people, and then the entire church showing them their sin) to not really be part of the church. If in putting them out of the church they show godly sorrow and genuine repentance, they are welcomed back in because their actions and attitude show them to be genuinely saved. (e.g. see the immoral sinning believer in 1 and 2 Corinthians as an example).

Anyway, that's all I got on that topic.

Trapped